Frustrated...

[Ladypainter]

I think my boss is going to push the VersaCamm through. I've been told by the supply company that we will probably have to use a different software, such as Corel. I am so used to Omega...does anyone know if I will still be able to use it for layouts with the new printer?

We have Corel 9 here at home, and when I open it up and try to poke around, it is so overwhelming...I don't even know where to start.

Any suggestions?
LP

[Dennis Raap]

LP, have you looked at the Tutor in Corel it may help? If you get the VersaCamm let us know how well you like it the price seems right but I don't know :help:

[Shovelhead]

required me to design in Composer (Omega)....
I don't know how I kept from pulling my hair out....
I now only use Omega strictly as a cut program.....
I import .CMX files and plot....
Think you might feel the same way!

[Baz]

Strange that Omega wouldnt support an Inkjet printer. It probably does (though i dont know).
You could desing your job in Omega then export it to another program to ouput it. But trouble with that is more often than not you'd have to re-adjust the colors in your final output file.

As far as being overwhelmed with Corel, i was in the same situation when i wanted to learn Illustrator and only had experience with Graphix Advantage and Casmate.

What i did was i only installed Illustrator on my computer so that forced me to learn it. Got a great book for it and it really didnt take long to learn. Im sure it would be the same for you with Corel. You allready know how to work with a vector program, so you just have to learn Corel's names for their tools and learn their toolbars.

I think you'd be surprised how fast you'd pick up on it.

[Fred Weiss]

A great resource for Corel training and information is Foster Coburn's Graphic Unleashed Website (http://www.unleash.com/).

He has a newsletter and tons of archived information at his site.

[Ladypainter]

This could get long...*sigh*

LP, have you looked at the Tutor in Corel it may help?
Yes...but it seemed to be more like something my kids would turn in for a class project instead of something I would turn out for a sign job. Perhaps there's an additional tutor that I need to see?

My first sign job....
required me to design in Composer (Omega)....
I don't know how I kept from pulling my hair out....
I now only use Omega strictly as a cut program.....
I import .CMX files and plot....
Think you might feel the same way!
I think you may be right...something we have addressed here before...it's all in what you get used to. Hubby and I poked around Corel some more this evening. I was amazed at some of the things we did with ease that require 10x the effort on Omega! I'm taking the Corel to work tomorrow and installing it there & instead of playing the "fishy" game at lunch, I will try my current jobs on Corel. I'm not going to get pissed that I'm spending my lunch on something that the company should be paying for...I'll get them back, I'm sure...LOL

Strange that Omega wouldnt support an Inkjet printer. It probably does (though i dont know).
Not sure either. Going to take some files when we go for the demo. Will keep everyone posted. Considering that Omega lets you convert to almost any file type, I should still be able to use it...however...thinking that I need to expand beyond one program? The problem is that the salesman told me he had a customer who always used Gerber and was now attempting to switch to Corel because he bought a VersaCamm...there must be a reason for this, which is why I am freaking.

Fred...as always, I much appreciate the info. Just one question...why did you have to put it in RED?
VersaCamm
I mean...ANY other color! All I see is VersaCamm ...even in my sleep!

I think you should at the very least pick up some percentage of my shrink bill....

:biggrin: LP

[Fred Weiss]

Gerber supports their own inkjet printers, the Jetster and the Elan.

I'm headed for the ISA show on Saturday in Orlando with looking at the Versacamm at the top of my list.

Not sure what you're using for image editing, but if you get a Versacamm I would think you will need Photoshop to supplement Corel.

http://www.allcompu.com/myicons/lucy1.gif

The doctor is in.

[Dennis Raap]

LP, you are right the tutor is very basic had a brain freeze couldn't think of the site that Fred mentioned.

Fred, could you let us know what your thoughts are on the VersacCamm after you get back from the show?

[Ladypainter]

Not sure what you're using for image editing, but if you get a Versacamm I would think you will need Photoshop to supplement Corel.

Have Photoshop (old stripped down version 5...someone gave to me) and the Corel we have also came with Corel Photo Paint 9, although I haven't used it.

Yes...please post ASAP after the show!



:thankyou:

[OldPaint]

here in lies the most basic problem with most new people in this business...ITS SUPPOSED TO NOT BE THIS HARD or DARN CANT I DO THIS WITH OUT LEARNING HOW TO USE THESE STUPID PROGRAMS????????? well this is why they call it a PROFESSION!
and yes virginia..you do HAVE TO LEARN TO USE THESE PROGRAMS!! now all you need is time and a lot of effort on your part to become proficient in corel.
i tell people this about corel(ive been using it since version 3 and a 386 computer)pick a version, and you got 2-4 year learing curve to master all it can do. 1-2 yrs and you can use one or two of its capabilities.
now we move on to corel PHOTOPAINT/PHOTOSHOP either one is not a walk in the park for a learning curve.....YOU ARE the only one who can get you proficient in any program. if you cant "self teach" then you need to find someone or a VOTECH/HIGH SCHOOL that offers evening classes for these programs.
i put many hours infront of a computer , cussing and kicking trying to figure out how to do the simplest things....but you aint gona learn it unless you DIVE INTO IT. and unless your sitting here with me..i cant tell you how to do most things.....

[Dennis Raap]

LP, here is a Logo I built up in Photo Paint 9 I used a few plugins to help, it is constructed using several different layers. We printed this out on our Edge 2 for our trucks. ( we have since closed the excavating business went to full time helping my wife in the sign business )

Give Photo Paint a try you can build some great signs once you get the hang of it.

[Baz]

That's pretty sweet looking Dennis .. Nice job:thumb:

[Ladypainter]

Very nice, Dennis!
:cool1:

Question on the Corel: Once you design something there, is there a way to apply a cut line, or do you have to export it to a different software?

The VersaCamm comes with some sort of software to allow for plotting as well.

LP

[geb]

LP, the two programs I've heard the most about for cutting in Corel are Co-Cut and Signtools 3. I run Corel 9 at the day job, was exporting to Anagraph, then cutting, until they bought the Signtools software. I think it runs about $200, not sure on Co-Cut. The support has been good. Usually it takes a day to respond by email, I think they're in Australia. If you buy this program from a vendor in the US, I'd recommend asking if there's any support phone #'s in the US to get same day service for any problems.

By the way, I'm pretty happy with signtools, but have heard good things about Co-Cut.

George

[Dennis Raap]

LP, for this sign I built it up in Photo Paint and then applied the cuts afterward in FlexiSign Pro. If it is just a shape or letters that I want to apply effects to I will create the shape or letters in a vector program then take a copy convert it to a bitmap bring the bitmap in to Photo Paint. The first thing I do before I start working on the effects that I want is to create an object that is slighly larger than the original (that way when the bitmap is exported back to Flexi and cut there will not be a white line around the inside of the cut) use the larger object as your base to build your different layers for the desired effects. When finished export the bitmap back in to the vector program (Flexi or what ever you are using) center the bitmap up with the original vector if every thing is done correctly you are then ready to print and cut. Be sure to save a copy of the bitmap in the native format such as Photo Paint, Photo Shop or what ever that way if you want to make changes to the bitmap you still have the original with layers to go back to.

I know it sounds confusing now but once you get the hang of it you can do some great effects. :biggrin:

[Ladypainter]

Thanks so much for all the tips! I agree...it sounds difficult, but I'm sure when I break it down and apply it, it probably isn't so bad. Sort of like when someone gives you directions to a place you've never been :biggrin:

I'm actually looking forward to the challenge now!
:thankyou:

[Baz]

LP ... the program that came with the versacamm is a rip software ... It will send the cutting information as well to the device ... But in Flexi, before you send it to cut ... You have to give your vector shape a contour cut value (that is in Flexi).

For Corel or Illustrator users that send their files directly to the rip software ... You have to create a spot color in your color swatch and name it "Contour Cut", chose this color for your cutline ... The rip program suposedly sees it as a cutline. If you dont do that .. it will just print your line and not cut it.

Now i never done this since i have Flexi but i read this many times in the Roland forum. Check to see if Omega has that "Contour cut" feature as well.

Like anything ... start by printing small letters and see if they cut ... Lots of tests, trials and errors ahead for you but it is a verry excitting tool to have in the shop!!

Good luck LP

[Ladypainter]

Yep! I'm very excited. I did see the Roland forums, so I'm sure there will be plenty of help there. Also, the VersaCamm is friction fed and they told me it would take all the way down to 8 inch pieces of material. I'm sure we have lots of scrap around here to mess around with! That's also so much better than the edge. Sometimes you lose lots of material on the foils.

Did I mention that I was E*X*C*I*T*E*D???:biggrin: Waiting for one more piece of info from the supply company about the different lease options & then it's off to the big boss office to REALLY beg.

LOL...thanks again!

[Fred Weiss]

We went to the ISA show in Orlando this past Saturday and spent a fair amount of time looking at the Roland Versacamm. Here are my impressions:

1. This is a 30" inkjet print and cut device using Ecosolvent inks.

2. There is currently no competition for the machine in the size, price range, and type of work it outputs unless you go to thermal resin systems such as offered by Summa.

3. Of the types of inkjets that have been shown in the past, this year almost everything shown for smaller sign shops is either the Versacamm or the Mimaki JV3 at twice the size and price.

Positives:

The output is beautiful and both the device and the software appear to be competent.

Production costs are fairly low. An average yield for a CMYK ink set is said to be 900 square feet. The ink cartridge set lists for $300, so if they are near accurate, the ink cost is 30¢ per square foot.

Negatives:

Testing a sample I brought back, a wipe with denatured alcohol immediately removed all ink in its path. Naphtha had the same result. So the conclusion is that the output has virtually no solvent resistance.

Further testing with a white, non-abrasive eraser resulted in complete ink removal with little effort.

It should be noted that repeating the same solvent and abrasion tests on output from the Mimaki JV3 (a true solvent inkjet) produced identical results.

Conclusion: Solvent and Ecosolvent inkjets provide state of the art imaging and sunfade resistance, but for vehicle graphics and other situations that may be in adverse conditions, overlaminating is necessary.

Laminating machines is another surprise ...... there is no available 30" laminator! Models in the 42" and up range add another $7000 to $10,000 to the price of a complete system.

:signs101:

[Ladypainter]

I kinda sorta knew that some of the stuff would have to be laminated. I have researched some cold laminators in the $1500^ range, though, in the 45" size. Can't remember the brand, tho...will try to re-research it sometime soon. Some peeps were talking about them on another message board and had good things to say.

I have to also laminate my Gerber Edge stuff if I need it to last a long time or if it will be in "finger poking" territory (such as our map signs). I discovored a long time ago that you could erase the foil color away. I mistakenly marked a print with the silver from my ring and tried to erase it...went all the way through to the vinyl...WAAAAAAAAA Never applied chemicals directly to the print. The laminate we use is scratch/UV/chemical resistant...pretty neat stuff.

Thanks again for the report...do you think it is still a good option for those of us who do not do vehicles? There's really no call for it here.

:thankyou:

[Fred Weiss]

Yes I do. It is an ideal complement to an Edge based shop.

In comparing it to other inkjets that also provide for cutting the print, it simply isn't a banner machine or extra wide format. Other than that, it takes a lot less floor space, costs less and isn't as smelly to be around.

[Dennis Raap]

Fred, Thanks for the report on the Versacamm sounds like when you include the price of a laminator and the laminate the square ft price will jump a bit. Would this be some thing that you could laminate and then cut?
:thankyou:

LP, could you let me know what laminator you go with and how it works out if you get one? :thankyou:

[idsign]

I sympathize with you having to learn new software when you are used to using one you are very familiar with like Omega.
Gerber did not begin as a software company so to believe Omega is par excel ance...I can't agree. Overpriced, to be sure.

Years ago signers tried to get Corel to build in plotter drivers and Corel's position was that signers who buy Corel are a very small segment of the millions of copies they want to sell of Corel (PLANNED ROLL-OUT OF A NEW UPGRADE VERSION ANNUALLY).

They thought hey...let the hardware people come to us (Corel those darn Canadians anyway) and make the hardware work with the base Corel software - whether it was then or now with bridge software or plug-ins.

Back on topic. Your situation could be worse - like mine. I was a lifetime IBM Windows PC user who grew up on Corel Draw and Paint and never used Photoshop or Illustrator. To now suddenly find I am forced to learn Adobe on a MAC...arrrrggghhhhh!

I was losing my hair at a more than accelerated pace before this. Now, my friends are referring me as Y'ul Baldy (you know - The King and I - Ramses in the 10 Commandments - that guy).

best of luck
Barry


My sign design software progression:
Corel 3,4,7,9,11 (Draw and Paint) Signlab Mono and Signlab Color bridge software. VinylMaster Pro 2, 2.5, 2.7. Newbie at Illustrator and Photoshop.

[Fred Weiss]

Dennis, yes I would plan to laminate and then cut on a lot of work. The versacamm does feature optical sensors to realign the material after lamination ..... how well it works will only be known when i visit the dealer for an in depth demo.

The reason I am looking at laminators in this price range is that i want one that is both hot and cold. The rule seems to be that one uses cold when overlaminating vinyl and hot for paper based substrates. My situation is that we get fairly frequent call to laminate customer items so having the right equipment for a full encapsulation will more than pay for itself. I'm also told that pressure sensitive over lamination goes on better when a small amount of heat is applied.

I also am being pushed into getting a laminator by a good customer who wants all of his equipment labels laminated. We do about $2000 per quarter in Edge printed labels for him.

I must also point to competition. My area has lots of inkjet shops. Several have JV3 systems but have failed to invest in the matching plotters to provide print and cut products or in laminators. Having these capabilities available will provide both a competitive edge and an opportunity to upsell.

Typical cold lamination film is about 60¢ to 65¢ a foot. Call it $1.00 a foot for ink and lamination. That's still a good bit better than comparable Edge costs. Plus I don't have to change ribbons, the output is much nicer looking and I'm not bumping into the 11.8" size limitation everytime I turn around.

[Ladypainter]

Dennis, yes I would plan to laminate and then cut on a lot of work. The versacamm does feature optical sensors to realign the material after lamination ..... how well it works will only be known when i visit the dealer for an in depth demo.
Read on the Roland board yesterday that one person wished they had included some sort of registration mark, because the optical alignment wasn't too great. Responders to her post were saying that they were making their own guidelines before reinserting for cut after lamination.

LP, could you let me know what laminator you go with and how it works out if you get one?
Still looking...can't remember the brand...GRRRRRRRR

I sympathize with you having to learn new software when you are used to using one you are very familiar with like Omega.
Thanks for the cheese for my whine...LOL I did try doing a couple of jobs with the Corel last week, but ended up running back to Omega...LOL I did work the "Sea Byrd" thing up in Corel, but imported it into Omega to add the waves...just didn't have time to try to figure out how to do it in Corel, although I'm sure it's possible. Also, still finding some AMAZING stuff in Corel. Opening for a few minutes each day and poking around.

LP
*insert some goofy signature line here*:biggrin:

[Baz]

To now suddenly find I am forced to learn Adobe on a MAC

Why on a Mac? ... Adobe files (Photoshop and Illustrator) created on a Mac system will open on a pc system.

Mac usuers have the option to save for a windows based computer. So whenever i get a call from graphic designers i just mention i am using Illustrator or Photoshop on a PC.

On the registration mark topic ... I dont know about the Versacamm but the Soljets have the option to print with Crop marks. I dont have the Optical allignment option enabled on my printer (It was disabled at first and now to enable it i have to call a rep) but people i know say it works verry well ... I allign it manually using the crop marks and works verry well.

I know film laminate is best ... But i dont have the space or extra cash for a laminator ... I use liquid.

I have had prints out on vehicles now for 2 years (including 2 harsh Canadian winters) and they still look great!

[Fred Weiss]

Even with thermal resins like Gerber Edge prints lamination can greatly increase the value and durability.

The below before and after replacement is a piece I did less than 2 years ago that got detailed with an electric buffer. The damage took a couple of weeks to begin and then faded to the top photo in less than a week. A separate identical graphic that wasn't detailed still looks like new.

The lower photo is the replacement.

http://www.allcompu.com/photos/Local_Knowledge.jpg

[Dennis Raap]

Fred, thanks for the info that is the same reason the Versacamm caught my eye, printing a width of more than 11.8 would be a big plus. We already use a foil type laminate on all of our exterior Edge prints sounds like it is not going to be so easy to laminate printed vinyl. How big of a problem is dust with this type lamination our shop is fairly clean but I was told that you almost need a seperate clean room don't know if this is true or not. :help:

[Fred Weiss]

I don't know but I doubt it's something that requires a clean room. We've been overlaminating our Edge prints with the Gerber 14" Tedlar film in what I can only describe as an awkward and primitive environment ...... we use our Sheeter premask applicator and one of us holds the roll of Tedlar while another cranks the print through. Haven't had any noticeable contaminants yet.

[Dennis Raap]

Thanks Fred that makes it easier knowing that, still need the room for a laminator. :signs101:

[mgs]

I've used CorelDraw since version 1.

I'ts a great program when you get comfortable with it.
We use it to do all of our design and signwork. (we export the files as .eps or .ai to the sign software to cut, no problem!)

It's far more powerful and accurate than the senescent Illustrator, (we have both.)

If you have questions regarding CorelDraw as used in sign business,
contact -
mgs@urec.net
I'll try and help (on a limited basis only, I'm still trying to make a living cutting
signs.)
DM ;0)

[OldPaint]

ive been using corel since version 3. and iam one of the 1st that used corel as a sign cutting program. i cut directly from corel to plotter no other program needed. if she cant help i probably can.

[Fred Weiss]

There's some pretty good tip, tricks and tutorials at the Corel website:

http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Corel2/Products/Content&pid=1047022690654&cid=1047022692546

http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Corel2/Products/Content&pid=1047022690654&cid=1047022692504

[Ladypainter]

Thanks very much everyone. I hate to admit it, but I really haven't been using it much. I try to start things and end up reverting back to Omega. I get frustrated trying to do the same things and all the buttons are different. When it boils down to having to get a job done, I can do it so much faster with Omega. I can't even seem to make a simple outline in Corel!

OP...how do you cut directly from Corel? Is it a plugin or something?

LP

[OldPaint]

ROLAND PLOTTERS and printer driver from from roland. in corel you treat object in corel to be cut as a printing object. you assign a .000003 or the thinest line available in corel to objects, asign a color to the line and you can leave a fill color or not. i cut everyday from corel.....do the same in my mobile truck.

[Niun]

If your going to get corel, jump right to Corel 11. No reason to settle for ancient. Corel is very inexpensive compared to the other design software out there. We have been using Corel Draw since day one and have had no problems yet. It took me about a month I suppose to get truely proficient in it. On a personal note, I didn't like anything roland had to offer. Print to Cut on one machine has alot of downfalls as does ecosolvent for outdoor use, best bet is to do lots and lots of research. As far as laminators go, check out the Daige Quickmount 3. Great Price for a cold laminator and I can run up to 54" material through it with no problem. For the price it works fine.

In-House Insomniac, Dana

:signs101: is :cool1: :thumb: