Help Choosing Equipment??

[robl528]

I am looking for some opinions and advice for buying a printer/cutter. I am in the process of starting up a motocross graphics business and am not 100% sold on the printer/cutter I am going to purchase yet. I will be printing my graphics on convex vinyl and then putting a laminate over it so I would need a lamintor as well. I'm not sure if I should but a inkjet or thermal, new or used, or what brand would be the best. The Gerber Edge FX seems like one of the best ones i've seen for what I plan on doing, but I am curious to see what others think. I also have looked at Roland's, Summa's, and Prismjet printers/cutters.

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

Contact Flame Master. He has a setup that he uses for the exact same thing. Last I heard, he may be looking to upgrade his equipment which is most assuredly going to work properly.

[Checkers]

Thermal printers like the Edge are very good for the type of work you plan to pursue for many reasons. Here are a few..
Most of the graphics on bikes are less than the 11.8" print width;
The graphics don't need laminate for durability;
there is no mess associated with inks; and
Even though the finished production costs are higher, you don't need a lot of space for the machine or supplies.
Inkjets do have their advantages though. Here are a few...
Print resolution on blends and full color graphics is much better;
Square foot costs for media and ink is lower;
It's a lot more cost effective if you're doing large graphics; and
you don't need sign specific software to run them.

Checkers

[robl528]

Thanks for the help so far. Who is Flame Master though? Also are there any specific models, inkjet or thermal that I should be looking for either new or used that would work best.

[Checkers]

"flamey" is another poster who specializes in motocross graphics. He has a solvent inkjet set up.
Choosing the right set up for you is something only you can answer. To learn more, I would suggest going to a sign show and learn as much as possible. There's one in baltimore next month and one of the big ones is in Atlantic City every December.
Once you narrow down your choices, search heare and on the other web sites for opinions. Most have been commented on many times.
Although used equipment is an option, you can get stuck with a real lemon. I would prefer new equipment for reliability. I would also get a service contract that offers a minimum of next day service too. If my equipment isn't running, I'm not making money.

Checkers

[Flame]

Heya.

First off, don't make the mistake others have made and get a small printer. Some graphics are over 18" wide at all points, and people DO NOT like seams in their dirt bike graphics.

Second. You NEED laminate. As in.... LOTS AND LOTS of laminate. Doesn't matter what kind of inks, one of my sponsored riders wears holes through 26mil tuf-cal vinyl in one weekend. Wears totally through the sticker down to plastic.

Third... as for a plotter, don't ask me. I'm having enough problems as it is, I don't know what the best one is going to be. Anything with 600 grams of pressure will cut through it, but then you just have to watch out for the half dozen other problems that will arise....

Find an affordable eco-sol printer is my suggestion. Mutohs and VersaCamms are the cheapest, and will probably work ok.

Just know that equipment isn't going to be cheap, and the learning curve is HUGE...

[robl528]

Thanks for the info. I will definetely be laminating all my backgrounds and graphics. I was planning on using convex high bond vinyl with the pro shield laminate for the backgrounds and graphics. I haven't heard or seen the tuf-cal vinyl yet, but I am still in the process of researching everything out. I might take a stop down at the show in baltimore since its not to far from me in Massachusetts. Also, I'm pretty familiar with adobe illustrator and corel draw X3 so I was planning on using those programs for designing the graphics on. My biggest hurdle is going to be making sure I have the right set up for equipment and supplies. Is there a big learning curve for using the printers/cutters and laminators or is it mostly in designing the graphics and setting up the templates?

[robl528]

Any more ideas?

[quikseps]

Is there a big learning curve for using the printers/cutters and laminators or is it mostly in designing the graphics and setting up the templates?

IMO...if you're very creative and talented at the graphics end along with being fluent with apps such as Photoshop, Illustrator, etc....you have over 90% of the battle won. After a month or so with your equipment you'll be very comfortable using it. This doesn't apply for complete idiots however!

[williamson design]

I have been looking into the Summa DC4

Does the same thing as the edge, thermal printing with cutting ability built right in.

Prints and cuts 50.2 inches wide

http://www.summausa.com/product_main.php?category_id=4&sess_id=d1262951900416d4c9809c885c6b66d8

And from what I hear its cheaper than the Edge 2

Glen

[GXSignCo]

I've been fond of the Summa thermals for a while now, though mainly due to reputation and not due to experience. Lately, though, I've maybe changed my tune a bit due to a friend of mine in a nearby town with a DC3. These are all nearly identical with the exception of print width. He's called me many times trying to figure out this or that, and has also wasted a LOT of mat'l in the process...something that is NOT cheap on a thermal.

The big claim is to not need lamination for the most part. That may be true in a durablity sense, but the laminate actually helps installation due to giving the print more body...something my buddy has been having a lot of trouble with since cast vinyl is really thin and hard to work with w/o trans. tape or a laminate.

I'm in no way bashing them, cuz I still like them in theory, but after hearing of his troubles, I'm having second thoughts about considering one for MY shop.

[Donny7833]

Keeping a small budget in mind, you'll want at least a 30" printer.

Keep your eyes open for a new or used Mimaki JV3 75 SP/Cutter combo. I understand that Mimaki has some good discounts going on new units. Used units pop up on Ebay from time to time. Load it with a Triangle or Nazdar 1000 bulk ink set (Mimaki SS2 leaves something to be desired). You can find quite a few new laminators that are affordable, Drytac and Eastsign (Signwarehouse) make basic but beefy laminators that will fill your current needs without breaking the bank. You will want to laminate any print you put on a moving vehicle, sewer truck, drag car or motorcycle, laminate it.

If you can afford a little wider equipment, there's the Mutoh valujet or Mimaki JV3 130 SP paired with a Graphtec FC7000 cutter. This would allow you to offer services beyond your core market. You WILL get asked if you can do larger work! You'll beat yourself up pretty quick after saying no to few jobs because of size limitations.

Thermal (i.e. Gerber, Summa and Matan) are pricey to run and with what your looking to do, IMHO, isn't a good fit. I have an Edge II and rarely use it now that I have solvent printers in house. I keep it around for 2nd surface decals that require spot whites. Every thing else that I use to do with the Edge is now done solvent. You can however, if you decide to go with thermal , find Edge II/Envision 375 combos on Ebay or SignWeb for under 10k. I have no hands on with the Summa product, but they run like swiss clocks at the trade shows.

Good Luck.

[robl528]

Well after doing a little more research I think the Gerber is definitely on the high end for price especially since it doesn't print that wide. I like the look of the Summa DC4, but after doing some reading on the forums:signs101: it sounds like I would be better off buying a printer and cutter as two seperate pieces so I could print faster? Not sure if these is true but that's what quite a few people think.

I also like the look of the mutoh valuejet, but was wondering what the difference between that and signwarehouses prismjet V is? I think I'm definitely going to go with a 48" or bigger printer and cutter since it would allow me more jobs like was said above. I'm just not sure if I should look for some good used equipment to start off and save some money or if I should jump in and buy new equipment. I definitely don't want to worry about getting stuff fixed from day one while I'm learning to run the equipment.

For a cutter, which would be better for cutting out graphics up to 18mil vinyl? a summa? or a graphtec?

Thanks for all the great info.

[GXSignCo]

The Summa S-Class cutters are probably the best on the planet, but you'll pay handsomely for a 54" S-Class, especially if you pony up for the true tangential model. A comparable Graphtec can likely be had for about 1/2 that of the Summa. I wouldn't hesitate to buy either one, but have no real experience with either of their top-shelf cutters, but my Summa D60 has been a very good cutter.

[D&Tgraphics]

I would recommend going with the Valuejet, graphtec cutter and Daige Quickmount laminator. You can get the whole setup for under 20k and it is a great combo. It will work for what you need and will give you the ability to expand into other areas if you want in the future.

[rllthomas]

Encad Vinyljet? I have one coming from ePay. I also have an old Roland PC-50.

Where do you guys get the templates?