Horrible customer.

[CV Signs]

So a few minutes ago, we finished a job at a customers storefront. We installed 2 logos. both were perfectly straight, but the customer said that one logo was crooked. We measured about 5 times and it was off no more than 1/16 of an inch. He swore that it was crooked and even took out his level, and it was perfectly straight. He asked us to re-do this and I told him that we would consider it and come back tomorrow. What do I do? I'm kinda easy when it comes to this kind of stuff because we need the money and I don't like losing customers.

[imaSIGNr]

Amazing what the eye can see. It may not be level, but 1/16 " . That's pretty petty, but the combination of a line of text being out of level and maybe a wall or siding next to it being out of plumb or not level will emphasize the vinyl being out of level too. You may have to redo it, but it may still appear to be out of level if other factors remain....

[Pro Image]

If is straight it straight..................Have him hold his head crooked and he will think it straight..............................lol

[Flame]

Tell him it's good enough, and if he wants it straight, he can pay for a new one and put it on himself.

Honestly, these customers aren't worth dealing with. I pretty well ruined a friendship over a crooked 16" decal one time. I don't care though, I KNOW I was right, and he wanted to me lose money to keep on replacing it, so I don't need that kind of friend (he currently has NO decal, as he took it off expecting me to replace it).

[SIGN SOLUTIONS]

If it is straight and you showed him than get your money. If you decide to redo it than get your money upfront. Sometimes customers like to complain about nothing when it is time to get paid so that they wont have to pay as much. Never let on to the customer that you need his work ( money). Go into a job with confidence and come out of a job with currency.

[CV Signs]

See the thing is, The neon sign that is above the logos is more than 1/4 inch off. And I tried explaining that. There is a railing that is in front of his window that goes down a slope. It's like I'm asking for it with this job. geez.

[SignosaurusRex]

Amazing what the eye can see. It may not be level, but 1/16 " . That's pretty petty, but the combination of a line of text being out of level and maybe a wall or siding next to it being out of plumb or not level will emphasize the vinyl being out of level too. You may have to redo it, but it may still appear to be out of level if other factors remain....
Good point! If something else is causing the logo to look crooked, than point it out to the customer. Nothing you do short of putting the logo on crooked will will make the customer happy and then he still may not be happy. If something else makes the logo look crooked, the customer should correct his problem and not expect you to sub-standardize your work and jeopardize your reputation.

[Checkers]

This is where this business gets interesting and it happens a lot when you're installing signs or letters on brick or block buildings. Even though the sign IS level, it may APPEAR to be crooked. So, you have to make adjustments that are pleasing to the eye.
If you were on top of your game, you would have noticed the problem and addressed it with the client before the install and you could have made adjustments then.
So, are you in the business of making the client happy? If so, do it over. But, rather than take a total loss on the re-do, you can offer a discount or meet the client half way on the price.
Or, you can just be a jerk and argue that it's straight and the neon guy needs to level out his work, or charge full price for the removal and installation of crooked graphics. This may not be good for repeat business though.

Checkers

[Gino]

1/16" over a foot or two is no problem. The naked eye cannot distinguish that, unless something else brings notice to it. As you said, the piece above it is out by over ¼”, so if he wanted you to match the uniqueness of his first mistake, he should’ve explained that to you before you did your job correctly.

Get your money and tell him you’re not going to get into a discussion about something that was wrong before you got there. If he wants to know why you didn’t bring it to his attention first, so he could make an educated decision on to make yours crooked or not, tell him that you do everything by the book, which is how business is conducted and you would think he would make the guy who did the first portion wrong correct his mistake.


Good Luck…….

If he insists on holding out paying you, tell him you will let your cousin know what’s going on here. When he asks… Who is your cousin ?? Tell him…. You’ll find out !! Snap a few pictures from a few angles and don't say another word and don't discuss anything further. Act like your in a hurry.

He won’t know if he carries a gun, baseball bat, a lawyer, judge or whatever…. let him wonder.

[Shovelhead]

1/16" over a foot or two is no problem. The naked eye cannot distinguish that, unless something else brings notice to it. As you said, the piece above it is out by over ¼”, so if he wanted you to match the uniqueness of his first mistake, he should’ve explained that to you before you did your job correctly.

Get your money and tell him you’re not going to get into a discussion about something that was wrong before you got there. If he wants to know why you didn’t bring it to his attention first, so he could make an educated decision on to make yours crooked or not, tell him that you do everything by the book, which is how business is conducted and you would think he would make the guy who did the first portion wrong correct his mistake.


Good Luck…….

If he insists on holding out paying you, tell him you will let your cousin know what’s going on here. When he asks… Who is your cousin ?? Tell him…. You’ll find out !! Snap a few pictures from a few angles and don't say another word and don't discuss anything further. Act like your in a hurry.

He won’t know if he carries a gun, baseball bat, a lawyer, judge or whatever…. let him wonder.


I love the "cousin" thing.

[lav]

tell him he's being ridiculous and that anyone walking past would never take any notice. Or tell him that one of his legs must be longer than the other.

People these days are just getting fussier and fussier

[player]

You have to find the lines of the building...if the other sign is the line then you should line up with it. I did not rely on a level when intalling but rather a brick or roof line...

The buildings are not usually level in my experience.


P

[doublesky]

So it seems as if everyone would disagree with me, BUT

I had this happen to me a few weeks back when we installed a 4' x 8' menu board with vinyl lettering about 40 miles outside of town.

The client called me and stated that one (out of the 100) words was crooked. He insisted I came down to his location and fix it.

I sucked it up and went ALL THE WAY over there. I swear, the text was less than 1/16" off. BUT, right in front of him, I fixed it and didn't say a word.

He placed another order today... so... after all of that, I believe, it was worth it.

[CV Signs]

Doublesky, that is my point. He gives me some good work (although he complains about price every single time), like today, I did 4 square feet of decals on windows for $50. Now he wants it on the door, which would also use 4 square feet. I told him it was $50. He told me he needed a better price cuz that is too much. And it is already a discount because my standard is $15/sqft for cut and installed vinyl. I gave it to him for $12.50. Sorry for my rant.

[creative]

how many hours did you spend in it, from design to completion, driving etc...for 50 bucks seems too low, but I have a "friend" that always outbids me, the funny side is that he works out of his living room and we have two shops.

go figure

[jdb]

I think you should raise your prices. I would go back without saying a word and take the logo off and leave. I had a crew doing an install on an $80,000 job at a marie calanders, when it was up the guy said he did'nt have the money right then and would mail a check. My guys called me. I told them to start taking down everything. I then called the police and told them my workers needed assistance at that address. when the police arrived the guy was threatening calling the police himself. The police looked at my invoice stating balance upon completion and told the guy to stand back. The guy then produced a check. It turned out I was the only one who got paid on the job, every contractor had to file a lean. Moral of the story? Get tough!

[CV Signs]

I know my prices are low...I need the customers though. I have A small customer base. I know this is frowned upon, but i work out of my garage =/. I iwsh i had a shop or retail front. I have definately learned that the customers who need something will pay without question and the customers who do not want something always want a discount. and for some reason im always willing to give that discount because i need the customer base.

[Flame]

Dude, cheap isn't the way to go. Sell service, or quality... anything but cheap prices. Just cuz you don't have a store front doesn't mean you can't sell yourself as a professional.

Try a new marketing tactic, and see how it works. Probably cause you a lot less headaches too!

[CV Signs]

I have a horrible marketing tactic. The only reason I got this job was because I solicited myself. How does everyone else market?

[Bogie]

Of course, you _could_ have called the guy first thing in the morning, and told him you'd been over at the crack of dawn with the Sign Moving Solution, and shifted it to level...

[CV Signs]

Of course, you _could_ have called the guy first thing in the morning, and told him you'd been over at the crack of dawn with the Sign Moving Solution, and shifted it to level...

Im way confused haha

[Ken]

Can you post a photo?
Ken

[CV Signs]

I am going back tomorrow. He wants to add white to it as well, because the text was black and the outlining part was overlooked. Ill get a pic tomorrow

[Techman]

I need the customers though

No you dont. You don't need anything. As soon as that new attitude comes around you will have LOTs of better paying customers .. As soon as you NEEd custoemrs you will compormise every thing.

[CV Signs]

I agree with you tech. Where can the paying and willing customers be found?

[iSign]

I know my prices are low...I need the customers though. I have A small customer base. I know this is frowned upon, but i work out of my garage =/. I iwsh i had a shop or retail front.

you never will have a shop or retail location the way you are working.
You can't raise prices when you start low. If you can do real signs with real quality... charge what everyone else charges... if you can't, then don't do any.

Get a job & learn to do things right. If you can, or once you can... charge properly.

Maybe you had the bright idea of throwing all your eggs in the basket of being the brand new sign guy with no other source of money to pay bills... but guess what? It takes time to build a successful business & many people do that at night after working another job. Maybe you don't or don't want to, but that won't change the fact that your lowballing ways are screwing things up for the existing sign professionals in your area, at the same time as severly limiting your chance of future success.

You are getting information (from everyone here) worth far far more then what you charged on that sign. I hope you are smart enough to act on that advice, because you will profit mightily if you do, & suffer greatly if you don't.

[CV Signs]

I know a great amount about signs, and ive been the head guy at a cinema vehicle place, in the grafix department running two plotters and a roland 72" printer. I just can't seem to get my prices in line. that and my customer base seems to be my only downfall.

[iSign]

by the way, I've made a crooked cut on the bottom of a logo, or a line of lettering to make it appear level by removing a sliver of vinyl resulting in the level bottom edge I need for things to look correct. Like Bogie's advice, but you actually do go down at the crack of dawn, & fix it that way, with a brand new sharp blade. Often this will be indectable, but the line will measure out AND the appearance will change for the better... if you cut it at the right angle of course... if it's already straight though... well, that complicates things.

I recently had a picky client unhappy with a detail so minor, I didn't want to jepordize future work either, so I told her she was right... it was NOT perfect. Then I told her that I am not perfect, & that I thought I did pretty good laying down a 20 square foot etch glass sticker on a door that I had to sneak it by a horizontal bar (what you push on to open the door) and that if she didn't like it, I could remove it and she didn't have to pay... but I doubted I could do better, & therefore would not try to. I offered her half price to keep it with the imperceptable flaw... or I'd take it off & she could board up the shop, remove the door & pay $500 or more for real etch glass. She took the half price door & I've done another $1000 worth of work for them since then (in the last month)

[CV Signs]

I know this guy is going to have a sh*it fit if i dont show up with a brand new sticker in the morning. I guess i may just be able to wing it, and cut only the bottom half, (it's a 15 inch red rectangle) and get him to take that as the replacement.

What would you have charged for a four square feet of stickers installed? 2 colors of HP vinyl.

[iSign]

what did you cut, how did the cut file come to be, how long did you deal with this bozo before knowing what to cut, having a file to cut, & knowing how big & what color to cut it? How far away was his window. How did the 2 colors fit together? tight registration, not touching? was the glass clean?


how long is a piece of string? (that's how easy your question is to answer intelligently)

One thing I do know, if someone wants "STORE HOURS: MON. - FRI. 8-5"

The price will be $100 if they are a block away, and nobody blinks.

do this... TRY to lose some jobs on price, because that's part of this business... you have to lose some, so throw big numbers out there... some fall flat... but them one sticks & you got a real job that pays better then if you did 3 jobs at your current prices... so now you can afford to lose more jobs too!

[CV Signs]

I guess you do have to lose some. I could probably have gotten at least 170 out of any other human being on the planet. 60 for the stickers, and 70 for the design plus 20 for each added color.

[Holeshotrob]

I don't have a "real storefront" either, and I charge rates comparable to every other sign shop in the area. (Not in the high or low end, more toward the high middle) I did this as a hobby when I worked at other sign shops, then as a business when I could afford it(HA-HA-HA...afford it! I kill myself!)

Now I'm doing it full time and airbrushing full time as well. I've been the business for around 15 yrs and am still learning how to price properly and deal with difficult customers. Hang in there and price your work as you value it, not how a customer dictates. You will never receive better advice or a better free education than from the great people here, so don't just read the advise, USE IT! You'll be glad you did.

[iSign]

what did you cut, how did the cut file come to be, how long did you deal with this bozo before knowing what to cut, having a file to cut, & knowing how big & what color to cut it? How far away was his window. How did the 2 colors fit together? tight registration, not touching? was the glass clean?


Brandon... do me a favor.
Don't ever ask me another question, if I'm going to waste time typing out 10 lines trying to help you & I ask you questions to help me answer your question.. and then you just blow off answering anything I asked you and just drop another lazy 2 line post on us instead. Nobody could possibly know what a 2 color, 4 ft job involves, but if you tell us, you could get some help on pricing.

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

For Christ's sake! Learn about what you are doing BEFORE you start doing!

Your profile shows that you are 17 and yet you try to act as if you have years of experience. Regardless of what you your age is, just the mere fact that you refer to vinyl as "stickers" is an insult to the trade.

What you are doing is typical of people that are trying to get into this business. Just like many others, you are ONLY trying to quote what wages would be. A business CANNOT charge wages - a business must pay wages.

If you are going to do this - then do it right. Take some business courses at you local community college. While you are taking classes, you read and practice you sign skills BEFORE you attempt to go out in public.

What you are doing is absolutely no different than going to a medical supply store, buying a couple of tools, and then claiming to be a brain surgeon.

[Lance]

I am going back tomorrow. He wants to add white to it as well, because the text was black and the outlining part was overlooked. Ill get a pic tomorrow

Is this the 'real' reason he wants it replaced perhaps ?

[LightHouse]

Regardless of what you your age is, just the mere fact that you refer to vinyl as "stickers" is an insult to the trade.



This is one of my pet peeves, My Longtime GF does this... and doesn't understand why i get upset standing in front of MY customers... i think she is catching on though, maybe i just need to get her working in the shop and she will relize how much time goes into "stickers"

[BIGLETTERS]

Brandon, Get yourself a Sign Pricing Guide. Ebay has them listed frequently.
http://search.ebay.ca/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=Sign+Pricing+Guide&category0=
I got mine from Steve H. Cole in a spreadsheet format. After checking several of his formulas to my manual calculations, I was usually within $5-10. Now I just input the job specs & print out an estimate. Very handy for those 'Bargain' customers as it adds a psychological factor when the quotation is printed out right in front of them. Whenever I get a 'Negotiator' customer, I usually dream up a new charge that I 'forgot' to include in the estimate. It usually shuts them up pretty quick!

[Gordy Saunders]

Isn't this business wierd. I remember back when we used to hand letter everything. Had to put a drop cloth in front of the door. Had to deal with customers going in and out. The wind would blow and dust would settle into the paint. Had to tape off the top and bottom of the line. There were always brush strokes. Customers didn't complain near as much because they thought you were a real artist. Now everyone expects absolute perfection because its a machine that is producing the product. Sometimes I just hate it.

[high impact]

I would not redo this for "free"...

You need to negotiate a compromise on both sides.

It sounds like there is more going on here than just a crooked install also if you are adding outlines. If you redo for free you are telling your customer that you are always wrong and he will continue to abuse you. If you tell him to take a hike you are telling him you are always right and he thinks you are abusing him. You don't want either of those outcomes. So...do your best to negotiate and talk about all the options causing the logo "appearing" to be crooked. Everyone's advice is very good. You will never have a storefront if you don't learn to do quality work AND charge for it. You need to lose a few customers and it takes a long time to develop a good customer base. You will always have the lowballers showing up...don't give in to it.

When we deal with customers we always look busy even if we have nothing to do. Some people expect you to discount if you are slow and good customers want a busy shop to do their work. As a rule of thumb the busy get busier and the slow stay slow. The busy charge more and slow charge less. NEVER complain that you are slow to anybody!!! You want to be busy, so act busy!

[CV Signs]

Brandon... do me a favor.
Don't ever ask me another question, if I'm going to waste time typing out 10 lines trying to help you & I ask you questions to help me answer your question.. and then you just blow off answering anything I asked you and just drop another lazy 2 line post on us instead. Nobody could possibly know what a 2 color, 4 ft job involves, but if you tell us, you could get some help on pricing.

Sorry iSign, He gave me two logos, so I shot pictures of them so they could be vectorized. It took me about an hour to vectorize both, and I charge $70/hour for my shop rate. We got that out of him. Then he told me he needed something on the window with the two logos. I merely went to the computer and put the two logos side by side. That was printed out and approved. It us about 15 minutes to install, aside from the complaining. They are probably less than one mile away, and the glass was perfectly clean.

[andy]

Next time get the customer to OK your positioning and level BEFORE you stick anything down.

If you charge the right prices you have more time to do things properly- like getting customer input and opinions before you stick anything down.

This industry worldwide is littered with the wreckage of people who found every excuse in the book NOT to charge a realistic price.

[slapakiss]

tell him the sidewalk is crooked lol..... buildings and foundations do tend to settle as time goes by....

[$ignman]

I have a way of dealing with this situation that may sound strange . When he tells you that it is crooked you agree with him , and tell him that you are concerned with the quality of your work and that you will fix it . Then you make a big show of starting to work and make it look like you are moving stuff around . You gotta get rid of the customer while you are doing it . So when he is not looking for a while you make scraping noises on the window or whatever and put some tape over the sign then take it off etc . Then after an appropriate amount of time you approach the customer , tell him that you apologize and value his opinion then take him outside and show him the sign . Nine times out of ten they will agree with you and thank you for your attention to their problem . Its a PR job and a bit of a flim flam but it works . I have done this with large sets of channel letters , box signs . pylons . It works great if you realize that some people cannot admit that they were wrong no matter what . So make him think he is right! And that you appreciate his fine eye and all that . Trying threats or legal . or any of that stuff does not work in most cases . Try it You will like it!

[N2Harpz]

I know a great amount about signs, and ive been the head guy at a cinema vehicle place, in the grafix department running two plotters and a roland 72" printer. I just can't seem to get my prices in line. that and my customer base seems to be my only downfall.

I had to learn this from selling my watercolor paintings at the art shows. If you sell low.. The buyer will think that your work is no good. If you put a higher price on it .. he will think the work is great and will handle it with care on the way out. Same painting ... go figure

As a new shop owner of two months now I am having to learn this all over again. But now with signs.

[N2Harpz]

I have a way of dealing with this situation that may sound strange . When he tells you that it is crooked you agree with him , and tell him that you are concerned with the quality of your work and that you will fix it . Then you make a big show of starting to work and make it look like you are moving stuff around . You gotta get rid of the customer while you are doing it . So when he is not looking for a while you make scraping noises on the window or whatever and put some tape over the sign then take it off etc . Then after an appropriate amount of time you approach the customer , tell him that you apologize and value his opinion then take him outside and show him the sign . Nine times out of ten they will agree with you and thank you for your attention to their problem . Its a PR job and a bit of a flim flam but it works . I have done this with large sets of channel letters , box signs . pylons . It works great if you realize that some people cannot admit that they were wrong no matter what . So make him think he is right! And that you appreciate his fine eye and all that . Trying threats or legal . or any of that stuff does not work in most cases . Try it You will like it!

Good Idea ... I'll make a note of that ...

[onesource]

Store front window frames are bad about being out of square. I pull a tape on them first to evaluate the situation before sticking vinyl or lettering. They will cause eye tricks. I have seen them out as much as 3/4". Might not have been your situation but some food for thought.
Put a long level across the bottom of the frame, if unlevel measure the difference. Check the top real quick because it might be level and this is where you want to pull your tape from. You can use a level for your graphics and get away with it most of the time. Even though your level says it's level it can still be off a 1/4", and thats enough to notice. Step back a few feet and look at it close before sticking because you can see a problem a few feet back better than you can up close. But sometimes you still have to deal with a crazy customer when everything is right.

[high impact]

$ignman - your right, that is strange! AND not recommended for ANY legitimate business.

You can't be serious pulling a "flim flam" (your words) like that on a customer. Your scam may work a time or two but it will catch up with you and your reputation.

[Flame]

Hey high impact... I'd do it IF I thought it was straight. If I think it's good, but the customer is being a pain, why not? Now doing it when you're obviously in the wrong.... well that's obvious. But we're talking PITA customers here, not jobs where we actually screw up.

Atleast I thought...???

[high impact]

Because someone is a pain justifies lying to them?

Be honest and tell that PITA customer that it is straight and leave it alone. IF we are talking expressly concerning PITA customers then you don't want him back anyway - so why pull a scam?

I simply do NOT understand this type of thinking at all. AND we haven't been given all the facts in this particular situation either...

I am just flabbergasted that anyone with a legitimate business would recommend this type of behavior to someone else. I refuse to build my business on scamming customers - even PITAs.

[Flame]

high impact.....

WELCOME TO BUSINESS101!!!





You know HOW MANY people are trying to scam you? You gotta be sharp as a knife to cut through it all, but many, many, many customers, and ESPECIALLY the well-off/ smart ones, will want to get the "upper hand" on you. It's our job to stick to our guns without losing a customer. I think what was suggested is one way of doing this.

Business itself is often one big scam. See who can get the most for the least amount of work.

That said, I still think I might agree with your last post. I'll just say sorry, I think it's straight. Although I have tried $ignmans idea in the past, and believe it or not it DOES work.

Honesty IS the best policy though, I will readily admit that. Even though it's tough at times when you're surrounded by DISHONESTY.

[Tim N]

You have got to price these customers out of the equasion or make it worth while to deal with them
--->$$$. You have lost money on the job as it is to re do it for him and have him un happy again will put you even further in the hole. You made the mistake to price too low, had you priced high enough you could re do it and still make $$$. I say re do it and call it lesson learned but next time he calls price it correctly and don't budge.

I'd also bring a straight edge and a sharpie and have the customer make a reference line under the existing sign before removing it just so there is no dissagrement when finished.

[CV Signs]

Tim-- you nailed it. That's exactly my thoughts on this, and I'm going to do that today.

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

Bullshit = Bad reputation.

It is always best to say it the way it, regardless of fault (customers or ours) AND let them know what, if anything, you can do to remedy it. Then again, those that charge enough can hand out more customer service, while never feeling the pinch.

Honesty will always gain more respect, and eventually greater numbers with loyal clients.

[Gino]

I’m surprised with that kind of attitude… that you’re still in business. Perhaps if you were on site doing a job 75 miles from your shop and you’re only off 1/16” I might try a few gimmicks, but to point blank say you do this routinely tells me that you can’t seem to get it right on many occasions….. and not only on simple vinyl graphics, but channel sets and pylon signs. That’s ridiculous to say….’When he’s not looking’ you ‘flim flam’ him. Then to further say… 9 out of 10…. that’s a lot of mistakes on your shop’s part. Why are you in this business if you can’t get it right so often ?? What if the customer is more clever than you and watches you and catches you in YOUR own lie ?? How many lies do you tell in order to get a happy customer ??

Suggesting to someone this type of knowledge, procedure or bad company policies… is pathetic help and even less character on your part. It should be taken off this post…. or highlighted as how NOT to treat a customer.

Possibly once to get out a jam when your hands are tied you might be honest with the guy and tell him you’re going to make a ‘quick fix’, but to do it continuously is poor business production, bad business practice and on a quick path to a bad reputation.

[CV Signs]

Okay guys, I got it re-installed, with only one problem. But first off, he was very happy that I followed through and fixed it for him. He then proceeded to order $100 worth of work shirts (At full price).

My one problem: I used action tac to install this, because I heard elsewhere that soapy water isn't as good. It seemed to go on fine, I flooded the transfer tape as the drirections said, but it still pulled up the letters as I removed it. What the hell?

[lav]

looks crooked.......:)

[CV Signs]

Yeah, because that rail is a foot and a half taller on one side!!!!!!!!

[lav]

looks crooked.......:)about 1/16 too high on one side hehehe

[Ken]

App fluids do take some time. You really gottta squeegee hard to get that stuff out of there. ( A light stroke first, then successive firm strokes- then wait.) I use RapidTac 1 and 2. It does slow you down, but you end up with a great result.
When you walked away from the job were you happy?
Cheers!
Ken
PS..it's probably that railing in front of the window causing all the fuss.

[CV Signs]

Yeah i was using Action Tac, So I'm gonna go pick up some rapid tac, because it seems like a better product. I was happy at the end.

[Ken]

Well, there you go. The client ordered some new stuff, you are satisfied that you followed thru, no flim-flam, building your rep one job at a time.
Don't let this get you down. Learn from it. You've been given tons of great advice here. I will also say THANKS to the S101 team.
Cheers!
Ken

[gunshy]

Just my opinion, there was no reason to use application
fluid for that install.
Dry application is the best option when ever possible.

The only time I use application fluid is when I'm applying
large graphics with a solid background.

[Checkers]

I agree with Gunshy to an extent. But, if you're going to use application fluid, use Rapid Tac or RT II. Just be sure to follow the directions and match the formula to the media/adheasive.
Lying or trying to "BS" the client will just burn you in the long run and give this business more of a bad reputation. We've got enough hacks as it is.
$100 for shirts? What kind of shirts? If you're talking screen printing, it definitely sounds like you have to raise your prices.

Checkers

[CV Signs]

Gunshy, maybe you should read the whole post. I used app fluid because the customer had the final call on the position of the decal.

Checkers, They ordered 4 heat-transfer shirts.

[Checkers]

That doesn't sound too bad then Brandon.
We all have clients like this. As you get better, you'll learn to sniff them out and charge accordingly.
As Pro pointed out, you can and should charge more for good customer service. I normally figure up to a 10% "OOPS! Factor" into all of my projects, above and beyond my regular margins and mark ups. While it's meant to cover mistakes, it also covers these situations. So, when I'm surprised by the occasional client like this and have to re-do the project, I know my costs are covered.
This way there's no hesitation or doubt when it comes to making things right. The plus is the client is pleased and (probably) will tell others about your great service.

Checkers

[high impact]

Brandon,

Good job!

Continue to use the "wise" advice you get here from those of us who have been in business a long time (and built numerous successful businesses) and you'll go a long way. Now you can feel good about yourself and how you personally handled this situation.

I had a lot more to say concerning some of the advice you received but kept my mouth shut hoping you would see the potential damage this could cause to your business.

I would recommend and much rather do this install dry as well but I understand the situation.

[CV Signs]

I hate to install using the wet method...It takes me way too long. I install 99% of my stuff dry, so I see where you are coming from. Thanks for all of the great advice guys.

[slapakiss]

Sometimes depending on the lettering.... you might want to adjust your mist.

Simply get a good spray bottle that allows you that.
Wider letters, yeah, you can get away with saturating them a bit more... but smaller more delicate letters you want to mist the spray.

I don't squeegee the hell out of them either. I learned my lesson a few times on that cause if i work that way sometimes i lift it off whatever it's applied to and make wrinkles and have to cut new.

Take your time when you squeegee. Put your body weight into the squeegee when your removing the excess liquid. Remove transfer tape at an angle. If letters start to pull... squeegee again and walk a away for a few minutes.

I even spray water on the transfer tape to loosen the bond, and i completely saturate that (i've used a hose to do that on some vehicles and trailers, thats how wet i get that stuff) then i wipe my hand over it to get the water in the pores of the t-tape and it peels so easy.... works great also.

[gunshy]

Gunshy, maybe you should read the whole post. I used app fluid because the customer had the final call on the position of the decal.

Checkers, They ordered 4 heat-transfer shirts.

I did and you didn't mention that until now, you must be thinking
of another thread. But I forgive you for being snippy :thumb:

I still wouldn't have used that stuff, I would taped it up there and
let him see it that way, but then I would have told him to take a flying leap in the first place.... and it seems you ended up with a happy customer and more orders, so what do I know.:help:

[isag]

Hello Brandon, if this helps we always add a level line to most if not all of our graphics, wording etc ... when we cut our vinyl I usually add it at the bottom or top depending on the graphic. Then simply mask over it as if it belongs to the graphic. Apply to the windows as usual. Check that it is level THEN ALSO LEVEL with your eye. Like most have said ... many other ANGLE factors play into what is LEVEL .... I NEVER use anything but my EYE on vehicles for instance ... is all about artistic ability. If you are level by 1/6th of an inch that is pretty darn good! You will always have customers like this. I measure and level to the millimeter and that is NO exaggeration. Then I ask the customer to come out and have a quick look. I rarely run into issues. Customer like that are usually the exception not the rule. When you are done and they are happy? I have them sign a document approving completion and ... ummm put my hand out for payment ... by the way. Stop by and say hello anytime .... Mike impactsignsandgraphix.com Peace!

[LightHouse]

I measure and level to the millimeter and that is NO exaggeration. Then I ask the customer to come out and have a quick look. I rarely run into issues.

i do the exact same i measure and level it and before i apply i ask the customer for approval... get the approval words twice, the apply. so when they say its crooked after you are done just let them know that thats what they wanted for sure, they told you twice!

[gunshy]

isag, nice web site and nice portfolio...
did you build your site your self?

[CV Signs]

ISAG...You use Avery? How's it holdin' up?

And one more question. By saying that you "inlay" the graphics so that there is no overlapping, you mean that if you were to cut an outline, you cut it with no fill so that the letters can be inserted flush? That seems like a lot of extra install time, plus the fact that not everything is perfect, and you are bound to light gaps and such. To me it just seems like that is asking for trouble. Am I wrong?

[Sign-Man Signs]

I know a great amount about signs, and ive been the head guy at a cinema vehicle place, in the grafix department running two plotters and a roland 72" printer. I just can't seem to get my prices in line. that and my customer base seems to be my only downfall.

My father, rest his soul, always said this.. "If you're working to hard, You're not charging enough" I live by those words. Back to your orginal problem, the window is crooked. Just measure it top to bottom and ask you cheap azz client, "If you want me to mount it crooked to fit your crooked window I will" Most times, they leave it alone.

[isag]

Thank you for the compliments. Yes I built my website. I originally went into website design after 20 year in the FD. My second career I guess ... then I realized web design is a "PITHA saturated field" ....... so i just do it for fun and occassional customers. I found building signs was/is much more fun and we can make about .50 cents a day. That's like $4.50 a week profit! So i'm happy now lol ................. ~M

[isag]

ISAG...You use Avery? How's it holdin' up?

And one more question. By saying that you "inlay" the graphics so that there is no overlapping, you mean that if you were to cut an outline, you cut it with no fill so that the letters can be inserted flush? That seems like a lot of extra install time, plus the fact that not everything is perfect, and you are bound to light gaps and such. To me it just seems like that is asking for trouble. Am I wrong?

It's not up to me to decide if you are right or wrong. But you are right about the extra time it takes. We charge for the extra time ... we find inlaying inside outlines make a nice clean look and no curling when laying vinyl over vinyl. As far as light gaps sure there are light gaps .025 mm maybe ... but usally our cuts are very tight and usually not a problem. As far as Avery goes ... we do not use them exclusively ... I also use Oracal too ....... all depends on the project. We normally use NOTIHNG but 2mm high grade vinyl on ALL projects except simple banners.

Without sounding pretentious ....... we use NOTHING but high grade materials and we cater to a certain customer base. We tried, low grade materials, we tried pleasing all the "how cheap can you make this for me" customers ........ yadda yadda yadda ...... we haven't don't that in 2 years. So ... yes we take our time, charge appropriately, and eat steak instead of macaroni and cheese on the weekends. We had our fill of mac and cheese ............. believe me. LOL Hope I did good with this answer. Mike

[Replicator]

What was this thread about :help: . . . Oh' yeah . . . get a picture and post it

and if everyone tells you it's crooked then replace it, but if everyone thinks it's straight,

then just tell your customer it's straight and if you have to redo it, it will be at the full price!