Sign A Rama or Fastsigns?

[Loumeister]

Guys, In my last post I was asking some questions about getting into the sign industry. Around here it seems that finding a job at a sing shop isn't that easy. It's actually boggling that in the Cleveland area there aren't more sign places around.... but I am seriously considering a Franchise. I get the feeling that most of you guys are independents and probably frown on the idea that someone is looking to get into this by buying a kit business instead of learning it in the field, but like I said, the jobs and sign industry just doesn't appear to be that large here.

As far as these two franchises go, are there any owners here who can give some input on this. I have talked to both of them, and seem to be leaning towards Fastsigns, but Sign A Rama seems to have more training and is a little bit less costly to get started. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Loumeister

[Techman]

I know of several franchise shops.. They all make great money. BUT, the owners wre sign persons before.. They had some idea of what it takes to make signs and do well.

I also know a couple who are not doing so well. They had very little sign training before hand.

[earplug]

Check you PM's

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

In Florida, it seems that FastSigns does a better job for the franchisee BUT as tech pointed out, prior experience is what makes makes one more successful than the next.

[OldPaint]

i got a lady freind in clevvland had a sign shop.....she is a relitive of a good freind of mine.....

[Valentino]

yummy royalities! i think it's like 8 percent right?

[lav]

If I had the finance to buy a franchise when i first started I would have bought one without doubt, but I had to start really small.

I dont have a franchise but if i were to buy one Id be looking at a signarama, their marketing seems to be more advanced than the others here in Oz and Ive heard their systems and procedures are top notch, both these are hard work to build when starting from scratch as most people who use this forum would know it takes years to perfect and most start ups dont ever get to that level at all.

[Derf]

In my area Fast Signs seem to be a better business model. I see more turn over in Sign A Rama's

Why do you feel you need a franchise?

Do you like making signs? Or Do you like doing Business? Or both?

I like both.. the longer I'm in business the more I like doing business. But I still have a heart for signs.

If You like business then buy a franchise. If you like to make signs, then keep it small and make signs on you own, If you like both, then start your own business.

My 2 cents.. Good luck

[Ken]

If the market is open, then open the market.
Ken

[GregT]

I know of 3 sign shops in the Bedford area. I worked at one of them for 10 years before moving east. There are lots of opportunity in the Cleveland area.

PS Go CAVS!!

[Rich]

.....but again I would suggest to anyone who is thinking about entering the sign and graphics business to Read and Study All You Can About Design First! There's plenty of great books out there on the subject.

Perhaps spend some time working for an established sign shop. One that's been in business for quite some time. Those are the people that have been "in the trenches" so to speak! Sign making is more than just design and nothing beats "hands on training" for a wide variety of other things you'll need to know.

[Craig Sjoquist]

from what I've heard from a signorama owner ..2 weeks training
there are several in town here
thinks they feed of each other in design and business help
they seem to market a better image
no nothing about fastsigns except there are several here

you seemed to have run out of options, but still want to go after signs industry, more power to ya ...git-r-dun

13 folds

[Niun]

The only thing a franchise is good for is business exposure and all in house tech support. I have worked for Signarama for almost 6yrs now and I can say, there is nothing being done here that is not already done in other stores.
It's kind of like McDonalds. People see the name, know its a franchise and tend to trust it a little bit more.

I do not know much about Fast Signs at all, but I have formed my own opinion that If you go franchise, to give Signarama Corporate a call and get a tour.

I have worked at a signarma that would gross maybe 60k a month to the one I am working at now that pulls in roughly 1.5 to 2 mill a year or so.

That being said, I have worked for Independent shops that have grossed those same exact numbers.

Franchise don't drop work into your lap.. You still have to go out there and get it.

It's all in the owner of the business, not the name. If you work hard, you can make it at whatever you plan to do.

As for me, I am an employee, so Signarama was the given choice for benefits, retirement packages, etc. and the owner here really has all his ducks in a row.

Make a solid game plan, write down everything you need to do to reach the goals you have set, then do it. Good luck in whatever you decide

[Niun]

from what I've heard from a signorama owner ..2 weeks training
there are several in town here
thinks they feed of each other in design and business help
they seem to market a better image
no nothing about fastsigns except there are several here

you seemed to have run out of options, but still want to go after signs industry, more power to ya ...git-r-dun

13 folds

This is true, all the owners seem to have a close relationship for answering questions, bouncing ideas around etc.

Hell, I'm not even an owner and I love my job here. lol

At the end of the day, all that is really important is that you are happy with what you have done and where you are going.

[Checkers]

I worked for both, and other franchises and, with what I know now, I would not entertain investing in a sign franchise. If anything, check into the companies that offer licensing or other start-up services.

This is true, all the owners seem to have a close relationship for answering questions, bouncing ideas around etc.
Now that's funny! The blind leading the blind :)

Seriously though, if you want to get into the franchise sign business do your homework and be prepared to earn every penny you (don't) make. Short term, you'll be broke. But, long term either can be financially rewarding. Don't expect much else though.

Also, be prepared to hire an attorney to review every contract you sign. If you google "sign franchise" with some other key words, you'll discover that one of them had some public issues. IMHO, it's not that the other franchises don't have problems, it's just that they have better lawyers :(

Checkers

[Niun]

Also, be prepared to hire an attorney to review every contract you sign. If you google "sign franchise" with some other key words, you'll discover that one of them had some public issues. IMHO, it's not that the other franchises don't have problems, it's just that they have better lawyers :(

Checkers

This is very true, going into a franchise of anykind without a lawyer is like going into jail with your pants around your ankles. Like checkers said, do your homework first.

[threeputt]

Around here the SignsNow franchise is really strong. We actually sub our screenprinting out to one of them. Have for about 3 years. I think they are a very well run outfit. From what I can see, looking at the franchisee that we go to, the owner's are pretty much invisible. They do have the place staffed to the gills with what seems to be very competent people, though.

They look like they might do twice what we do. (300K) I think their headquarters is in Atlanta, GA.

[gROUND cHUCK]

Before you jump in, this site could help you get a better perspective of what you're getting into.
http://www.signbiz.com/index.shtml

[Billct2]

Definately do some research on the web.
A very telling fact is that one particular franchise doesn't consider a franchise location a failure unless it actually closes. There is one here that is on it's third owner, having bankrupted at least one previous owner.

[iSign]

Do you like making signs? Or Do you like doing Business? Or both?


If You like business then buy a franchise. If you like to make signs, then keep it small and make signs on you own, If you like both, then start your own business.


I agree with Derf!

[iSign]

Sign making is more than just design and nothing beats "hands on training" for a wide variety of other things you'll need to know.

I agree with Rich, BUT,
...I also think business ownership (& success) is more then just knowing your product or service.

I think if a really really good business person, has researched enough to know his chosen location has the potential for him to run, staff, and suceed at a large sign shop with several employees... then this person doesn't need to have as much hands on experience, he just needs to hire that talent. Of course he should, and will, learn from them... but with the right financial base, & business savvy... I think there is the potential for a non sign guy to take a franchise into a well established & respected sign shop, FASTER then a lot of us talented sign guys without a financial base ever could.

[BlueRidgeFabrication]

We have a lot of SignsNow around here and they seem to do well. We make a lot of dimensional signs for them. Here's one of them...

[threeputt]

Very nice, Jessica!

[GXSignCo]

I do a fair bit of wholesale work for a SignsNow in NY...seems odd geographically, but we've built a good relationship and they come coming back. From the sounds of it, the franchise isn't doing much for them, but I could be wrong.

[Rich]

I agree with Rich, BUT,
...I also think business ownership (& success) is more then just knowing your product or service.

I think if a really really good business person, has researched enough to know his chosen location has the potential for him to run, staff, and suceed at a large sign shop with several employees... then this person doesn't need to have as much hands on experience, he just needs to hire that talent. Of course he should, and will, learn from them... but with the right financial base, & business savvy... I think there is the potential for a non sign guy to take a franchise into a well established & respected sign shop, FASTER then a lot of us talented sign guys without a financial base ever could.

True.....But why pay franchise fees? If your going to invest your money in the industry then why not invest it into a well established full service sign shop that already employees experienced people?

[OldPaint]

In Florida, it seems that FastSigns does a better job for the franchisee BUT as tech pointed out, prior experience is what makes makes one more successful than the next.
SIGN SNOW IS BASED IN BRADENTON FL!!!!!!!!!!

[Sign-Man Signs]

Traveled both routes. Franchise, I'd have to say no. Major decision is what are you going to specialize in? Once you have figured that out, it's up to you to bring in the business. Sign-A-Rama and Signs Now both have good and bad reputations. Price is a real concern if you have an independant down the road. To me what they offer is money I can spend on my own business.
I have a friend here in Florida and I constantly hear him complaining about losing a job to one of the local owned shops. Guess it comes down to your pocketbook. We lease most of our big printers and buy our plotter/cutters outright. Do one thing is nothing else. make a business plan for each direction. Think you'll see the difference. Good Luck!

[cartoad]

Loumeister,
It all boils down to do you want to work for yourself (creative, sales,production), or be a part of a group but independent (licensed, and have one or more employees), or be part of a group of franchise owners (multiple employees/problems).
Also what kind of background you have.
If you have a business background, creative bent, like people and can sell, you are getting there. No matter what, you have to bring something to the party, either sales, management, creativity, or constuction/production skills in addition to deep pockets. If all you have is $$ to contribute, then you may be better off with a franchise to help you with all the other parts of the puzzle. If you go with the franchise ask yourself how you will feel month after month sending them a percentage of your gross (not net) sales, I do not know exactly how they work it, but you will most likely screw up a few sales and sell some things for less than what it really costs you to make them, or you or an employee will screw up a job so you have no profit in it and bam, you have to pay on the gross 6 ot 8% to boot. Be realistic in what you have and what you want to achieve.
The education you receive owning your own shop is very expensive, but most of us really enjoy what we do.
Bottom line, you have no experience at this time, for a reasonable chance at doing it full time without making too many fatal mistakes you are limited to either a franchise or licensed sign business. I like the license model, for the following reasons, NO ROYALITY, no one telling you how to run your business, tech support on demand, help from other shops, purchase discounts on some items.
Good luck on your decision, consider your options very carefully, as no matter what direction you go you will have a signifigant investment, and the sign business is a people business.
One last thought, if you can spend a day or two in a shop as a shadow to the owner to see what their day is like. For me I am at the shop at 7am, and often do not get out till 9pm or later, as during the day, phone calls and customers, and directing work takes up most of my time, great fun, but have to do the paperwork, bids, payroll ect after we close.
Hal

[Loumeister]

Guys, Thanks so much for all of your input. I really wasn't aware that there are so many other ways to get started other than the franchises. Has anyone else used Sign Biz or any other companies like that? What were your experiences like? I think this sounds more attractive than the franchise model. What other companies like Sign Biz are out here?

Thanks,
Loumeister

[cartoad]

Loumeister,
We are a member of Sign Biz, and very happy with it, great folks, great service, huge help in the begining, and best of all no royalities, or feeling like I work for someone else. For us it was the right fit for based our background of and personalities. Check em all out carefully and compare the everything, and if you are serious call some owners of each, new, one or two years in the biz, and then some older very established owners, and if possible track down some that are no longer owners. Call and set a time to call them back, most are very busy and will appreciate your consideration.
Hal

[onthego signguy]

Does any body know that the founder of fast signs was in the shoe repair biz before signs… and the eye glass biz before that.. and that there was one big thing that made his first shop in Dallas so successful? Out side sales guys 3 of them… 30 grand the first month in biz… I know, I was there… I have visited a lot of fast signs to chat and the thing that seams to not have conveyed that Bob knew was that outside sales can make your shop a real success. No matter a franchise or independent. I am open to chat more about fast signs founder and his ideas and model. I own a small shop and outsource a lot of stuff NO STRESS and I only do the work I like. LG (life is good)

[gROUND cHUCK]

Guys, Thanks so much for all of your input. I really wasn't aware that there are so many other ways to get started other than the franchises. Has anyone else used Sign Biz or any other companies like that? What were your experiences like? I think this sounds more attractive than the franchise model. What other companies like Sign Biz are out here?

Thanks,
Loumeister


My boss had no idea what he was doing (He isn't a strong designer and it's his first business) when he started his shop 16 years ago. He went with Sign Biz and hasn't looked back ever sense. I've been with him for the past 12 years and the company does pretty well. He still calls Sign Biz from time to time for support and they still get him discounts on his software. I think my boss is very happy he went with them.