Color Management For Idiots

[Imminent Death]

Hi all,

I'm hoping this is the right thread for this. If not, sorry about that.

So here at the sign shop, we're having lots of problems with color matching. I've looked through some of the previous threads on the subject, but I guess it's not sinking in or I'm missing something.

Right now we have Photoshop and Illustrator CS, and CorelDraw X3. We print through a Mimaki JV3-130SPII.

We have our color settings in Photoshop and Illustrator set to "US Prepress Defaults", and in Corel X3 set to "Professional Printing". I can understand why Corel and the Adobe programs wouldn't match, but two of us here printed color swatches from all 3 programs off of two machines and compared them... and most of the swatches are different colors. We even have a Pantone book that we use, but the colors are way off when printed.

Is there a simple, easy, and preferably free way to get everything at least somewhat in sync? Our color matching scenarios these days end up in lots of test prints and wasted material.

[FatCat]

Is there a simple, easy, and preferably free way to get everything at least somewhat in sync?

Not to come off like a wise-azz, but no.

I've been in the offset printing field for over 13 years (just now making the move to wide format) and it still is quite a challenge and a mystery sometimes. You have lots of variables involved...the monitor, the scanner, the output device, the files, the media that you print on etc. It doesn't matter if you print with a press, a color copier or a wide format device - it all requires the same amount of understanding. You can "dumb it down" a bit but you have to realize to achieve consistent results you have to put the effort into it.

Our color matching scenarios these days end up in lots of test prints and wasted material.

Again, not to sound "cute" but how much do you have to waste until you find it worthwhile to invest in color management? I bet if you added up the ink and materials you have wasted, it would have paid someone to come in your shop and teach you and your staff how to do it correctly.

Again, I'm sorry if I'm coming off "gruff", but I just had a big blowout with a customer that couldn't understand that images pulled off the internet will print like crap no matter what tricks you do to them. :rolleyes:

Nothing worthwhile comes easy....

Start here: http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/19500.html

[bob]

...Is there a simple, easy, and preferably free way to get everything at least somewhat in sync? Our color matching scenarios these days end up in lots of test prints and wasted material.

The point to understand is what comes off your printer is the truth, nothing else matters.

To this end, print up a Pantone chart on whatever media you're using with whatever profile you're using for that media. That then is the truth for that particular combination. Regardless of what you might see on your monitor using whatever software.

I've found that, for Corel, using an SRGB [IEC 61966-2...etc..etc..SRGB] profile for both internal and monitor gives at least acceptable results. But it really doesn't matter since what comes out on the printer is the truth. I seldom, if ever, enable monitor color compensation to the monitor profile is usually moot.

When I want a particular color, I select it from the proper Pantone chart. When I need to match something, I find the closest match on the Pantone chart. I've been doing this for so long that often I know what Pantone numbers I want to use without referring to the chart.

Rendering intents are also key. I set everything except bitmaps to 'Spot' or 'Saturation' is 'Spot' is not available as an option and bitmaps to 'Perceptual'. This allows for minimal, if any, color correction for vectors, text, and gradients, a Good Thing, and a proper correction for bitmaps.

I've come to these settings after a spirited bout of experiencing exactly what you're experiencing.

[Replicator]

I agree with bob . . . !

The printed color chart form your printer set to a certain setting is the colors you need to match from.

So you print from your different programs, note on the charts which program you used to print that chart,

and wala . . . color matching charts for you . . . The easy way out !

Secondly thou, you should learn color profiling . . . It will benefit you greatly in the future.

[Checkers]

This is about as idiot proof as you can get...

http://www.graphintel.com/

I attened a seminar of theirs several years ago and it pid for itself in just a couple of weeks. And, I didn't have to buy any "special" color management hardware or software.

Just by using the adobe software we alerady had and their seminar we managed to reduce color errors by 90% or more. The only issues I've had since taking the class were either bad files file or client related issues.

Checkers

[cinemasign.grafix]

With Checkers GIA offers Training & Seminars. Morgan - EYE4CLR over at printingdigital.net and some others will come to you for training & profiling for a charge.

[Imminent Death]

Sorry it took so long to get back. Been busy busy busy.

Fat Cat:
You didn't sound gruff at all. I know in the sign business there's a lot of "Ain't gonna work" answers. Plus, your avatar represents my favorite beer :)

Bob:
We had one of our other guys go through and make a swatch map that we printed of all the Pantone colors in Corel X3. But for whatever reason, there have been times when we've printed out something that we matched on our chart, and it didn't match! Why that is I dunno. I tried to make a Pantone chart in Illustrator CS... but it doesn't like to save the file (I've read somewhere that Illustrator doesn't like to save stuff with over 28 Pantone colors. I could be wrong *shrug*)

Checkers:
How much do these seminars run?

Thanks guys for the help!

[Bobby H]

It's no accident that Adobe applications don't like to save large numbers of spot colors in a file.

While Adobe applications do work well for sign making purposes they are designed foremost for professional print publishing and little nuances in the interface guide users more into thinking in that mindset.

When it comes to print publishing very few if any people are going to make a publication with more than 20-some odd spot colors. Each spot color requires a separate printing plate. A job that requires 20 or more plates would cost a fortune to produce and be a nightmare to register properly.

Sign people are often using the Pantone spot colors as a crutch for not having good control of how CMYK behaves in their work flow. Many also don't want to spend any money on profiling tools, like a colorimeter for the monitor or a complete hardware system such as the ones sold by GretagMacbeth/X-Rite. They also don't want to go through the labor intensive process of color metering lots of printed swatches (and doing so every few months).

Even if you go through the trouble of creating consistent scanner, monitor and printer profiles with a professional hardware color calibration system nothing is ever going to be completely foolproof.

Different batches of the same brand and type of ink may print differently. Heck, I've even noticed a good number of plastics suppliers aren't exactly consistent these days on colored acrylic!

Different printing substrates cause changes. Various types of installation (first surface/sub-surface, etc.) may yield slight color differences.

Humidity level can change how ink behaves when it his the paper or plastic.

In general, I simply do not trust the color management at all within CorelDRAW. It's just too much hit and miss, and mostly miss at that. Adobe Illustrator and InDesign work a lot better -especially if you're just printing direct without any other color control hardware/software system helping the process.

I still use CorelDRAW a great deal, but mainly just for its object creation and editing tool set. I defer to Adobe for the critical color stuff.

[gtjet]

We do what Bob suggests and we are going to look in to checkers advise but for us that really helps most of the time. Not as good as color profiling equipment and every thing it takes to manage color professionally but we are small and serve mainly small businesses so for us it makes good economic sense.

[thewood]

Bobby H--great post!

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

I have been a Corel user for years (v.2). One thing we will NOT do is print directly from Corel. Corel very often develops a mind of its own and implements "shifts" - I believe to lost information, while "on its way to the printer" (no tangible proof). This can and does happen regardless of the color settings.

If you must print via Corel, print a proof beforehand. Another solution is to export/save the file as a pdf or psd, and print from there. This has given us much more consistent results.

[mark in tx]

There are people who do color profiling, they will come in, and make sure that what you see on the screen is what you get from the printer.
Of course, the good ones charge accordingly.
I felt it was worth the money.

With the profiling I have had done, I use Adobe RGB color space out of Photoshop, and US sheetfed coated V2 from Illustrator.
I have a pantone book, Color Bridge Coated.
There are more settings in Flexi-Pro that are specific, but I hope you get the idea.
My profiler set all this up, and I get accurate color everytime, as long as I make the effort to do any conversions needed from outside files.

[Imminent Death]

I would love to get some kind of colorimeter like the Eye-One. Trust me, I think it would save us money in the long run to get all this stuff set up right. Unfortunately, the boss thinks that right now this isn't the way to go (mainly because things like the Eye-One costs almost $1K). Maybe if I threaten my boss with violence... hmmm (that's a joke, by the way).

So with color devices such as the Eye-One... let's say a customer comes up to me and wants a printout that's a spot on match of a swatch they bring in. Can these devices do things like this, or are they just for setting up color profiles?

Man... I hope I'm making sense here.

[mark in tx]

For the thousand dollars you could spend on an Eye-1, you could have someone come in and do the profiling, instead of having to learn how to use the Eye-1.

Imagine being able to print correctly the first time, everytime.

How much would that save in material, ink, and time?

Anyway, the Eye-1, is a basic device, there are more sophisticated color devices out there.
Comes down to the knowledge of the person using it.

[signage]

You can not meet all colors spot on with a CYMK printer you! Some colors just can not be produced with process colors.

[Sign-Man Signs]

You can not meet all colors spot on with a CYMK printer you! Some colors just can not be produced with process colors.

We work with colors on a daily basis. I don't think there is any magic bullet to color profiles. We usally just print a color swatch and print it until we get the desired color. I just wish there was a site that explains all the freakin' settings you can use on your project manager (flexi). I would pay anything for that information....until then...profile, profile, profile.
:help:

[Bogie]

Stupid question time...

I'm printing into an 8 color Epson 9800 and a CMYK Mutoh Jr. (dang, that's easier to type...).

My primary concerns are around the Mutoh - the stuff I'm using with the 9800 tends to have at least decent generic profiles available.

So, what's a good gizmo? Can I use one of the RGB devices, or does it have to be a CMYK specific device?

Price is a factor here, as the sign end is not supposed to overshoot the photo end...

[GraphixCALC]

In order to create profiles for the Mutoh, you MUST have a CMYK spectrophotometer (or at least the software to do so). I have a suspicion that the line of EyeOne handhelds are the same with the exception of the included software, but I don't have any proof of that. I have the EyeOne Proof package, which is the minimum setup AFAIK.

[Bogie]

What are the differences in the things? Every web site I've looked at seems to treat 'em like the customer already knows everything... The low end eye-one runs about $900ish, right?

[GraphixCALC]

You need the EyeOne Proof, or one with equivalent specifications....one that will do CMYK (not the 'Easy' mode either as you'll see noted in some). I paid $1200 for mine brand-new off of ebay, and I've not seen them cheaper than that, but you might I dunno.

[gabagoo]

I print out the colour charts on our machine using different profiles, then when I need a pantone colour I go searching for the closest match. I have found that there a re a ton of colours you will never get close to with a 4 col printer, blues being one of them.

http://www.printingdigital.net/

these guys have a few charts you can download off there site and print with your jv3.
I too have the jv3 130 spII - Slowly but surely I am getting there with it, but every so often a job comes in that just drives me around the bend trying to get a decent colour match.

[DARLAK]

I convert any files that aren't already CMYK into CMYK through photoshop, I print from Flexi with color correction turned off. People have told me you can't do that, we I do and it works. I just did $30,000 worth of signs just like that for an NFL training camp with mostly all national sponsors and the colors printed just fine. There are a few colors that don't print perfect, but I have a PMS to CMYK pantone converter swatch book to get them closer. These printers are CMYK, they will never truly print RGB.

[bob]

I convert any files that aren't already CMYK into CMYK through photoshop, I print from Flexi with color correction turned off. People have told me you can't do that, we I do and it works. I just did $30,000 worth of signs just like that for an NFL training camp with mostly all national sponsors and the colors printed just fine. There are a few colors that don't print perfect, but I have a PMS to CMYK pantone converter swatch book to get them closer. These printers are CMYK, they will never truly print RGB.

This can work for non-bitmap data. Don't try it with a bitmap or it will look like an exercise in mud wrestling. While it can work sometimes, it's rather a naive approach.

Far better to develop an actual understanding of The Way Things Are and exploit that understanding. While you may find converting everything to CMYK expedient, it's generally better to work in RBG and let there be but one and only one mapping into CMYK. By the RIP engine when the image is printed.

Since your monitor is RGB, keeping everything in CMYK requires that it be mapped into RGB space just to see it. If you visually specify some color or another it necessarily happens in RGB. Which, of course, requires it to mapped into CMYK space just to store it. Mapping back and forth usually involves an exciting side trip through LAB space. And from there it can only get uglier.

Working in RBG, at least working gracefully, requires you to either have all of your equipment properly profiled or for you to understand just what's going on and be able to properly compensate and deal with what you see not necessarily being what you get. For myself, I've been doing this for at least long enough to pretty much know what yields what but it took a while to learn, Others find solace in profiling everything that isn't nailed down. Either way, for the most part, we all work in RGB.

In this endeavor using Flexi's Soft Proof feature can be your friend. Assuming that Flexi's Color Setting are at least close to properly set for your monitor.

[DARLAK]

Don't try it with a bitmap or it will look like an exercise in mud wrestling
WRONG - you think i did $30,000 worth of work for an NFL training camp and there were no bitmaps? 50% of the prints were bitmaps.
it's generally better to work in RBG
WRONG- how do you figure, your end result is CMYK, why start out in a different language? is it better to write a book in chinese and then convert it to english just before you send it off for 100,000 copies???
Since your monitor is RGB
WRONG - digital montitors give a perfect view of CMYK without the 'soft view', sure the old analog connection gives you RGB, but i'm HD digital
Either way, for the most part, we all work in RGB
WRONG - CMYK all day - all the way!!

not only do you get the benefit of no trying to color match and profile yourself to death, printing pure CMYK files allows you to step down in you print mode ie from 720 to 540 and even 360 and get much faster and better results.

bob, i expected answers like yours it's rather a naive approach BUT the proof is in the pudding, I have been NAIVELY printing this way for two years with hardly any obsticles, sure there are a few colors that don't quite translate as pure as they could , but this is CMYK printing were talking about that happens all the time!

don't knock it until you've tried it, I have a pretty successful business with three printers runnning. I do alot of work for national companies and there logo's must be the right color and I never get any complaints.

The headaches of color matching, printing giant color charts off my printer and matching those to what I want the color to be are gone.

think CMYK, RGB is you emeny!

[javila]

Things that will change your colors when printing

1) Different working spaces (Adobe1998, US Swop Coated 1, sRGB, etc.)
2) Rendering Intent (Perceptual, Absolute, etc)
3) Materials (Cast, Cal, Paper, Banner, etc.)
4) Quality Settings (360x720, 720x720, 4 pass, 8 pass, etc.)
5) Profiles (Ink limites, ICC, Linearization, etc.)
6) Heater Temp
7) Ambient Temp
8) Ink set
9) Looking at your printer the wrong way
10) Farting in front of your printer

You get the idea, yes?

As for using CMYK to design files, unless you've created a specific CMYK color space to work with you're going to be missing some colors that your printer can print that aren't inside of a canned CMYK color space. It's nothing to do with display or inkset or anything like that.

A rip typically takes any type of file CMYK/RGB/sRGB and coverts it into a larger RGB color space before coverting it to ink amount for the actual ink.

Work inside RGB but within the space of your printer. You'll get a higher color gamut.