anyone buy a printer from matt c? [Archive]

Fred Weiss

08-30-2007, 05:26 PM

Okay ... I'm going to give a limited explanation and I don't plan on having an open discussion about what is apparently some multiple instances of fraud having transpired. Here is what I have been told and tend to believe but do not state as fact:

dclet stated to me that he purchased a Mutoh printer as a demo unit at a discount from Art Unica and that Matt Cuellar was the sales rep in the transaction. The unit that arrived, however, was a new machine. dclet recently received a call from Art Unica wanting payment for a balance due on the printer. dclet had already paid the entire amount in full that he had agreed to in his transaction through Matt Cuellar.
I contacted Art Unica and spoke with the owner of the company. He confirmed the statements made to me by dclet and added that there were apparently at least five such deals that Matt Cuellar had handled which the Art Unica owner stated were fraudulent. Matt Cuellar has been fired by Art Unica and they are investigating their next course of action. Matt Cuellar was, in fact, a legitimate representative of Art Unica until today. It does appear, however, that he had found a way to close deals and be compensated before any of the fraud was detected.
I have removed Matt Cuellar's access to Signs 101 unless subsequent developments disprove what has been stated.
ALL MEMBERS who have recently made a transaction with Matt Cuellar are hereby formally notified that such transactions MAY have been fraudulent.
Any member of Signs 101 who had discussions or did business with Matt Cuellar and can provide any email, written or private message documentation to Art Unica is requested to do so.
I want to point out that this sort of thing is always possible. Signs 101 accepted Matt Cuellar's registration and fees as a merchant subscriber here in good faith and had no reason to believe he would commit any fraudulent acts nor did we have any clue that anything such as described was going on. We also have every reason to believe that Art Unica is a legitimate enterprise and should not come away from this with their reputation soiled. That said, it should also be said, that being a merchant subscriber here does not represent any "seal of approval" by this board or its owners.

onesource

08-30-2007, 05:34 PM

I have seen him selling on Signweb and stating he was in financial need and going out of business (something close).
I then swapped over to signs101 and he was trying to sell the same machine different circumstance. mutah valuejet 48 to be precise.
Maybe I should've posted the red flag

GraphixCALC

08-30-2007, 05:38 PM

WOW! I had no idea. I contracted with Art Unica [and Matt] to help me learn media profiling. AU sent another representative to actually perform the "teaching" but Matt did swing by just to meet up. I've personally had no problems, but then all I purchased was a service, not physical goods. He seemed to be a stand-up guy to me, but ya never know I guess. Too bad.

I do have to say that my initial training left me a bit wanting, as it was one of the first ones they had actually done off-site...just could have been presented better. However, the owner and I spoke at great length (not anything bad, just some suggestions for improvement and such), along with Matt, and the owner offered another 2 hours of training at no charge. I've not yet scheduled that training, but I have no reason to believe that it won't be honored.

bullcrew

08-30-2007, 05:54 PM

Bought a new graphtec fc7000-100 from him at a discounted price then got a bill for an additional $2600. I got some replacement items from them recently and they billed me for them as well. I had to file a claim with the CC co. they took $2600 out of my account for the rest of an item that was supposedly discounted. Got it back after 2 months and filing a claim. I have 2 more bills sitting here that are the same circumstance, although the product was a sample I got a bill.
Thought he was a stand up guy, ahe did fix a couple of discounts on items. I wont discuss the 411 that lead to the demise of the print heads and the really bad material either.

Robertw

08-30-2007, 06:42 PM

I want to personnaly address the threads regarding Matt Cuellar.

Matt is a wonderful man who just got mixed up in the world of fast moving technology and wheelin/dealin. His actions that are being questioned were wrong & misleading and he will be answering to a higher power than me about this.

Please understand the comments are about Matt not the company he has been working for. Unica digital continues to provide excellent solutions for printers, media and color management to the sign shop communities. Many of you know that Matt has provided you with great solutions, pefect support and a desire to help you grow your business.

I am sorry if anyone has been hurt or deceived due to his actions. Again these are not related to Unica digital and all hardware that has been sourced through our company will be fully supported as expected. What has transpired is and should not be a reflection of our company philosophy.

I am leaving my doors open to anyone who would like to further discuss this matter. My phone # is 425.767.3136. Please call me at your convenience.

Matt's future depends on his ability to fully understand what he was doing wrong, make ammends as his heart would require. I am still open to having Matt be a part of my company and truly value the expertise that he has acquired while employeed at my company.

I will say that during my walk in life, I made many mistakes and stumbled numerous times. Who of us have not. I always got up, dusted off my jeans and becoming a better person for it. I trust in the Lord that Matts rocky road will be a lesson learned and I know without question that he will become a better person for it.

RW

Pat Whatley

08-30-2007, 07:02 PM

That is probably the most impressive response to ANYTHING I've ever read on this board.

onesource

08-30-2007, 07:13 PM

Only 2 posts?
AKA Matt C.?I want to personnaly address the threads regarding Matt Cuellar.

Matt is a wonderful man who just got mixed up in the world of fast moving technology and wheelin/dealin. His actions that are being questioned were wrong & misleading and he will be answering to a higher power than me about this.

Please understand the comments are about Matt not the company he has been working for. Unica digital continues to provide excellent solutions for printers, media and color management to the sign shop communities. Many of you know that Matt has provided you with great solutions, pefect support and a desire to help you grow your business.

I am sorry if anyone has been hurt or deceived due to his actions. Again these are not related to Unica digital and all hardware that has been sourced through our company will be fully supported as expected. What has transpired is and should not be a reflection of our company philosophy.

I am leaving my doors open to anyone who would like to further discuss this matter. My phone # is 425.767.3136. Please call me at your convenience.

Matt's future depends on his ability to fully understand what he was doing wrong, make ammends as his heart would require. I am still open to having Matt be a part of my company and truly value the expertise that he has acquired while employeed at my company.

I will say that during my walk in life, I made many mistakes and stumbled numerous times. Who of us have not. I always got up, dusted off my jeans and becoming a better person for it. I trust in the Lord that Matts rocky road will be a lesson learned and I know without question that he will become a better person for it.

RW

Jackpine

08-30-2007, 07:13 PM

That is probably the most impressive response to ANYTHING I've ever read on this board.
I agree with you Pat. I have followed the equipment posts and Matt's other post with interest. He seemed to be a very helpful person on this forum. I personally wish him and Unica Dgital the best. I am mostly impressed with Robertw's response. We all can gain from his example.

GraphixCALC

08-30-2007, 07:18 PM

Only 2 posts?
AKA Matt C.?

No, this guy is legit and is indeed the owner of Art Unica. I've spoken with him personally before, but I s'pose anyone could impersonate another. I don't believe this is the case here.

onesource

08-30-2007, 07:21 PM

OK just asking. ThanksNo, this guy is legit and is indeed the owner of Art Unica. I've spoken with him personally before, but I s'pose anyone could impersonate another. I don't believe this is the case here.

gnemmas

08-30-2007, 07:31 PM

Wow, this is what we business owners' worst nightmare!

It is like your best salesperson, went out sells $5,000 channel letters for $4000, collected in full, and turn-in $2500 as deposit, pockets $1500. Then the customer gets a bill for $2500 balance.

Art Unica is a reputable co & the owner is a stand up guy that will sort out everything.

SignosaurusRex

08-30-2007, 07:59 PM

Wwwwwwwwwwwell, #@%*$#%@*! Just everlovin Ducky. I'll refrain from any other comments regarding this issue until such time is warranted.

Replicator

08-30-2007, 08:20 PM

There goes my media supplier . . . !

S#!T

oc63rag

08-30-2007, 09:36 PM

There goes my media supplier . . . !

S#!T

Why's that? The company is still there isn't it?

insignia

08-30-2007, 09:56 PM

May I ask how long this has been going on?

iSign

08-30-2007, 10:26 PM

That is probably the most impressive response to ANYTHING I've ever read on this board.

My thoughts exactly!

Besides being a refreshing opportunity to see someone show a little class, it is also a reminder that I can learn a little from the integrity & sympathy shown by one of the victims of this situation.

iSign

08-30-2007, 11:47 PM

those of you who might have got roped into some kind of funky deal... you might see more into this because you have a lot more info to go on.

As an innocent bystander, what little I can piece together, with a lot less at stake to justify much effort in piecing it together...

I get the impression that if any fraud was involved, it was by an employee. I then assume that in uncovering it, we are learning that an employee ripped off his own boss.

Now that boss has come in here and chose to show some tolerance for the crimes of his employee, but also state that "all hardware that has been sourced through our company will be fully supported as expected."

Based on my lack of information, I was under the impression he would be the sole victim, & his customers were already happy, & now that the double billing irregularities have led to extortion from within... the company would absorb those thefts, sheltering their customers from any suffering.

Anyway, I've since learned that the view from inside the scandal looks and feel different them my uneducated assumptions... but I also assume the my view from out here is not easily seen from in there. I'd like to think I am right & RobertW will make things right with everyone, while also showing forgiveness to his former employee. If I'm mistaken, I'm all ears for other views.

I've seen great people turn to money-grubbing greed machines under the influence of drug addiction. It doesn't make the victims of crime feel much better, but as a friend, I could not help but feel some degree of sympathy & forgiveness. In my mind I was comparing RobertW's views as being something along those lines... not as being complicit in the crimes & posting insincere damage control now...

but hey, what do I know?

Bogie

08-30-2007, 11:50 PM

I get the impression that (a) Robertw makes clanking sounds when he walks; and (b) Jack Bauer likes to party with him.

Replicator

08-31-2007, 12:05 AM

the next few days should be an insight as to how all of this will pan out I'm sure !

synikster

08-31-2007, 01:27 AM

Some scarey stuff. I was trying to work out a deal with Matt, as well. On a 48/64 inch Mutoh VJ.

Something sounded odd, when he asked it will be "this price, if purchased before the 28th of this month" Not sure what the rush is but..Hmm?

I guess Id try to work something out elsewhere.

Robertw

08-31-2007, 01:40 AM

Synikster-
tell me more. If I can be of assistance feel free to give me a personal call.
Robert 425.774.3136 or email me at robertw@unicadigital.com

high impact

08-31-2007, 10:45 AM

RW,

Thank-you for your wonderful and insightful post. I appreciate the integrity that you and your company obviously posses.

Gino

08-31-2007, 11:34 AM

Boy….. this is a sad development all around for quite a few. I know some that have been burnt in this little stunt and I feel sorry for them. It’s not all that easy to finally decide to bite the bullet and put out quite a large sum of money, to later be told that you have to put out more for equipment these days.

It seems as if Unica Digital has the right to expect full payment, regardless of what was done unknowingly by a company representative, but on the other hand, they now have a captive audience so to speak.

I guess the big question is… do you pay for what you are about to use…. or does the company pick up the tab for an illegal act by one of its own and honor the deal which is in ‘Black and White’ ??

Although Robertw has come forth and said he will honor the machines…. does that also mean he’ll honor the quotes and take the loss ?? That sounds like too large of amount for anyone to bear.

Robertw…. I feel for ya, man. Don’t want to be in your shoes, but judging from your earlier response, you sound like the kinda person that will do the right thing. You’re a very understanding person and should feel good about your life and your values in it. Thanks for sharing and why don’t you think about staying around :signs101: ??….. you’ll probably like it here.

fozzyber

08-31-2007, 11:38 AM

Oh hell, I almost did a 28k deal with Matt. I went with SW instead, not so much for the deal, they were very close in $$, but SW was closer to me.
I thought that if something goes wrong I can be on their doorstep by the next morning. Seams I might have dodged the bullet. Sorry about art unica. It is going to take time for them to recover I'm sure. Too bad about Matt as well
I was talking to him 1-2 mo ago and he was telling me about his upcoming child being born. We all make mistakes, just some are bigger than others, and some can not be forgiven as easly

Jerry

SignosaurusRex

08-31-2007, 01:55 PM

That is probably the most impressive response to ANYTHING I've ever read on this board.
The ultimate judge of that will be those of us affected by this issue. Two calls into RobertW in the last 18 hrs and as of yet, no return call.

Gino

08-31-2007, 02:00 PM

Hey SRex....

I just read your last response and started laughing...... not what you wrote.... look at your signature line :tongue:

SignosaurusRex

08-31-2007, 02:05 PM

LOL! Damn Gino, good eye! I may be a cranky ******* but I can still laugh, even today.:Big Laugh

SignosaurusRex

08-31-2007, 03:32 PM

Update...Without going into too many details, RobertW has called me and assured me that we are paid in full as agreed between Matt and myself. The agreed deal is what it is. No additional/surprise charges, uncompleted training will take place as scheduled, other minor issues as well, will be taken care of by Robert. I still have some questions to answer for myself etc. However as a whole, the situation is "thumbs up" on my end. I know that Robert met with Matt this morning for a considerable length of time. I'll leave any comments regarding the outcome of that meeting up to Robert as I don't know all the details. I am hopeful everyone affected will be met with the same positive results that I have so far, in a timely fashion. My understanding is that there will be some sort of additional information and/or announcement forthcoming.

iSign

08-31-2007, 03:46 PM

Great news Rex. :cool1: \

We compared notes & I saw the easily understood difference in the view of this matter from my shoes, compared to the view from your shoes.

As a potential victim, I think you were rightfully concerned, where those like Pat, Gino, myself and others were more easily ready to praise RobertW for his manner, thus far, in handling his own losses.

Rex, I also want to acknowledge your own professionalism in your even tempered front here on the boards, even while you may have been tearing hair out by the root behind the scenes. (you still have hair right :Big Laugh ) In doing so, you have shown the same exact traits I felt I could learn from in Roberts post.

I can be the nicest guy when the sun is shining... but when the clouds roll in & rain on my parade, I have not always shown as much restraint when I feel there is a guilty party to string up for public ridicule. Thanks for the demonstration by both you guys... & good luck to all the other potential victims.

If Robert can really make things right with everyone, I nominate his company for consideration as deserving the first annual signs101 merchant scholarship.
Of course, I'm in no position to volunteer Fred's money to pay for that... but it's an easy idea to lob out there from the peanut gallery. Anyway, we are watching you robert, & so far your company is looking better then I think the majority would, in your shoes. keep up the good work. I think many business books have shown that truely great successes are built on some degree of failure. Hopefully this is the darkest day & everything turns up rosy in the end.

Replicator

08-31-2007, 03:50 PM

Well Said . . . iSign !

Fred Weiss

08-31-2007, 03:55 PM

I have received an email from RobertW advising me that he has reinstated Matt as an employee as well as put some new procedures into place internally. He has also asked me to reinstate Matt's privileges here at Signs 101 ... which I have done.

Let's hope this is a case of all's well that ends well. :signs101:

Fred Weiss

08-31-2007, 04:00 PM

If Robert can really make things right with everyone, I nominate his company for consideration as deserving the first annual signs101 merchant scholarship.
Of course, I'm in no position to volunteer Fred's money to pay for that... but it's an easy idea to lob out there from the peanut gallery.

Doug ... I thought you had given up skunk weed. http://www.allcompu.com/myicons/dragon01.gif

gvgraphics

08-31-2007, 04:04 PM

Doug ... I thought you had given up skunk weed. http://www.allcompu.com/myicons/dragon01.gif

He did! But the printer fumes are still getting to him along with rapidtac!
:Big Laugh

Matt Cuellar

08-31-2007, 04:07 PM

To all of the S101 members:

I first want to apologize for the stress and questions that have arisen from my dealings at Unica digital. I also want to thank Fred for reinstating me on this forum to allow me to discuss:

I had a ValueJet deal go sour about 4 months ago due to lack of attention. Instead of letting Robert know up front, I panicked and tried to cover my tracks. That has left me with about 5 deals that have cost Unica digital and myself tremendous amounts of money. The burden and stress I caused has been a lot to bear. Unfortunately word got out quicker than the facts and since I was in Chicago on a plane, I had no way to discuss the situation until now.

Before I say anything, I must make it clear that all actions were a reflection of my personal choices, not Unica digital. Robert had no insight into my dealings. Unica digital is a phenomenal company with excellent support and service which many people can attest to, and I do not want Unica digital judged based on my bad judgement and inability to confront my mistakes when they happened. As stated by Robert Welch, all equipment sold through Unica digital will be fully supported through Unica digital.

I also want you to know that after a lengthy meeting w/Robert, his wife, and my wife, I am still an employee of Unica digital, and we have personally come to a settlement based on recent transactions.

I am not justifying my actions in any sort of the way, but I will say there is no other company dedicated to your growth and success than Unica digital. Many of you have attested to our expertise in color management, profiling, and truly understanding the world of digital printing. I ask that you not penalize or slander the company for my wrongdoings. For some of you, this might be the end of business with me, and that I understand. But I hope that through time, I can build up your trust and confidence in me as a person more than anything.

Regards

Gino

08-31-2007, 04:22 PM

Awww..... you fixed everything. Now we don't have anyone to rip apart

Where's Rog when you need 'em ??

Well done everyone. I for one am happy to hear all is 'Hunky-Dory' in print land and let's all learn from the professionalism these people have displayed. One mistake should not tarnish your record for very long.

What kind of deals can we expect in the future ?? :wink:

GraphixCALC

08-31-2007, 04:26 PM

So...free ValuJets for everyone....yeah, let's hear it for Unica...HIP HIP HOORAY!

Kidding aside, thanks for some insight Matt. Although my limted view from here lacks the depth of the situation, I truly hope you begin to understand the high amount of grace that has been shown you.

BlueRidgeFabrication

08-31-2007, 04:45 PM

I don't know Matt or Robert from Unica Digital, but both of their posts sound very genuine. It's nice to hear that both are trying to rectify the situation and make sure that the customers involved in purchasing equipment aren't penalized because of the situation.

dclet

08-31-2007, 04:49 PM

I honestly don't know how I feel about it.

bob

08-31-2007, 04:56 PM

...
It seems as if Unica Digital has the right to expect full payment, regardless of what was done unknowingly by a company representative, but on the other hand, they now have a captive audience so to speak...

Not a chance.

The apparatus is responsible for its representatives. If I were quoted a price by a bonafide sales weenie from some outfit, money changes hands, merchandise is delivered, then I damn well expect them to live up to their employee's representations. It means nothing to me if the employee were robbing them blind. Not my problem.

If I bought something and then received a bill for more than I agreed to pay, the sky would be dark with airplanes carrying scum sucking lawyers coming to drive that merchant into the sea.

Pro Image

08-31-2007, 04:57 PM

Of all the threads that I have read on this board about problems we face, The replys from Both Matt C. and his Boss are about the best I have seen..........

I am glad the problems are setteled and everything will get better........

Gino

08-31-2007, 05:18 PM

It seems as if Unica Digital has the right to expect full payment, regardless of what was done unknowingly by a company representative, but on the other hand, they now have a captive audience so to speak.

I guess the big question is… do you pay for what you are about to use…. or does the company pick up the tab for an illegal act by one of its own and honor the deal which is in ‘Black and White’ ??

bob from earth.... if you would've read the next sentence, you would've realized I had already said what you wrote with other words. Was mine too hard for you to understand ?? :Big Laugh

Pro Signs & Graphix

08-31-2007, 05:31 PM

I am glad the problems are settled and everything will get better........

Says who? As far as I can see, nothing is settled. The only thing that has occurred is that Unica and Matt C have come to an agreement/arrangement of sorts, all which are nobody's business.

Nevertheless, I will go out and be the black sheep (or even the *******e) about what transpired. You see, I have faced a similar situation, on Roberts side of the table (11 years ago, to the tune of 100+). Regrettably, I went what appears to be Robert's route. To this day, I still have a bad taste in my mouth for the thievery and misplaced trust.

I even find it somewhat appalling that my former employee believes that everything is "hunk-dory", just as Matt seems to be. Regardless of what happened with his original screw-up (and we all do make mistakes), Instead of just owning up, Matt chose a deceitful route for a remedy AND a route that put both Unica and some customers in a very awkward position (even though Bob is 100% correct about any possible recourse).

While I have never had a any dealings with either, I do know that Robert has placed all kinds of blood and sweat, and even risked lots to build his business - JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER BUSINESS OWNER HERE.The way I view it, the actions of deceit is not only thievery, but also an insult to all of us.

Ironically, calling Unica (for material pricing) was on my "to do" list. I did not do so due what recently transpired. I will place it on my list in the future BUT I will not deal with Matt. If he was able to bite the hand the was feeding him, what is he capable of doing to me and my business? NO THANK YOU!

It is good to see that Robert and Matt have come to some kind of arrangement, but the damage is much more far reaching, and already done. Call me harsh or what you will, but having been in a similar situation I find no room for forgiveness or trust.

My grandfather used to say that "mankind lost its self-respect when the word sorry was invented". Basically it means that many assume that the word sorry will fix everything. In reality it does no good for the guy that was intentionally just hit in head with a baseball bat. Simple as that.

To Robert - As a business owner I am sorry to hear about what happened. We wish you all the luck in recovering your hard-earned investment/funds (hopefully somebody brought you a big fat check - but that is nobody's business either).

jdb

08-31-2007, 05:32 PM

Matt, I hope you take this gracious opportunity you've been given by a man of great character and work harder than you ever have. I think you will. We've all made are mistakes. Good luck. Thanks Robert for the wise example, you obviously care about everyone involved.

bob

08-31-2007, 06:04 PM

bob from earth.... if you would've read the next sentence, you would've realized I had already said what you wrote with other words. Was mine too hard for you to understand ?? :Big Laugh

I should think not. You posed a question as if it were some big moral turning point. There is no question, none, nada, zip, zero. A business cannot seek additional payment from a customer because it was, or merely feels that it was, hosed by one of its employees.

One doesn't have to be uncaring or unfeeling to refuse to carry someone else's burden. Most have their own nest of problems to manage, taking on anyone else's, for whatever reason, is silly.

gvgraphics

08-31-2007, 06:28 PM

I should think not. You posed a question as if it were some big moral turning point. There is no question, none, nada, zip, zero. A business cannot seek additional payment from a customer because it was, or merely feels that it was, hosed by one of its employees.

One doesn't have to be uncaring or unfeeling to refuse to carry someone else's burden. Most have their own nest of problems to manage, taking on anyone else's, for whatever reason, is silly.

Bob, He asked a simple question. For once in your life quit trying to read more into things than there is. Every damn post you make you are up some ones A$$. Do us all a favor, push the power button on your pc, go to the closet and get the box, put it in your car and return it before you hurt yourself!!!

Robertw

08-31-2007, 06:29 PM

Forgivness comes from the hand of God, I can only be a servant and walk a path as best I can based on the "Word".
Not simple, not easy but the better of the feelings come through this action. We work to resolve problems not blow them away.

Matt's apology is not only words from a man who truly is shameful of his actions. It is much more and not at all a free ride with just verbs and adjectives to cure the hurt and pain. There is a penalty and it will cost Matt dearly. He has agreed to pay back the lost income to Unica digital under an agreement we hammered out early this am.

By the way,not once did the word "laywer" come into play but if any of you would look into this with the depth required you would see that a recourse is available to the company through legal means. Terms and descriptions go beyond my understanding but the firm that represents our company has determined there would be an avenue to collect the losses. For $275.00 per hour you could discuss this with my attorney. We are not going to do this but as a business owner I needed to cover all bases and it's good knowledge to know that if this were to happen to any of you, and it has, there is a recourse not a dead end.

For anyone who knew the deal was to good to be true!

...play with this. A woman comes to your door, you open it and notice she is well dressed and quite lovely. She offers to sell you the red cadillac thats parked outside on your curb. It's a classic and a real beauty.
She represent a Cadillac dealership and needs money to go back to New York and offers to sell this classic for $4000.00. You think to yourself, how stupid she is, this car is worth at least $12K, something seems fishy but you can't pass up the deal and write her a check for $12K. In your quickness to get a deal you forget to cross your T's and dot your I's. Your inner self was tricked by the greed that surfaced and you knew it, but selfishness became dominate to your common sense.

The car was stolen, you took ownership from a fraud who represented the product through unethical means. The fool was fooled but couldn't pass on the deal.

The words may seem harsh but the reality for the few who took advantage surely know the feeling in their hearts.

Done.

gvgraphics

08-31-2007, 06:40 PM

For anyone who knew the deal was to good to be true!

...play with this. A woman comes to your door, you open it and notice she is well dressed and quite lovely. She offers to sell you the red cadillac thats parked outside on your curb. It's a classic and a real beauty.
She represent a Cadillac dealership and needs money to go back to New York and offers to sell this classic for $4000.00. You think to yourself, how stupid she is, this car is worth at least $12K, something seems fishy but you can't pass up the deal and write her a check for $12K. In your quickness to get a deal you forget to cross your T's and dot your I's. Your inner self was tricked by the greed that surfaced and you knew it, but selfishness became dominate to your common sense.

The car was stolen, you took ownership from a fraud who represented the product through unethical means. The fool was fooled but couldn't pass on the deal.

The words may seem harsh but the reality for the few who took advantage surely know the feeling in their hearts.

Done.

I have to disagree with you trying to push blame to your customers. They were made an offer by a legit sales person you employed, it is not there fault he scammed you, they kept their part of the deal and made the payment as agreed, it was your employee who wrote the deal shady. If anyone needs to take the fall with Matt it is you Robert for not paying attention to what was being sold and how it was being sold by your company.

Your last few responses I have gave great applaud to for being a stand up man, but this last part of your post sounds as if you want to take the blame from Matt's shoulders and place it on your customers for TRUSTING and BELIEVING in Matt!!!

Sorry if this comes off wrong, but I truly believe your last post is out of line.

onesource

08-31-2007, 06:54 PM

Well I checked out thier website to learn a little more about Art Unica and it looks as if RW has worked hard to create a legit business and I don't believe he would want it comprimised in any way. We build businesses to make a living and I believe that reaching out to correct a problem is alot better than doing nothing. Just make sure communication is clear and contracted properly.

Robertw

08-31-2007, 07:13 PM

This is a moral question that you perhaps need to look into for yourself.

Am I placing blame on "clients"? Read the previous replies and see none of that. We all need to be aware and care for each other. I know this isn't the case because many fall into the category of thinking their way is the only way.

What a different world it would be if we looked out for each other and not just ourselves.

And by the way, if you look at Matts notice in this forum about a used or demo printer, you will see no mention of a company. So if the demo was sold and this was transmitted to anyone from a personal email and a personal cell phone # then when offered a new unit for the same price......as my attorney states, no client has the right to take advantage due to an obvious mistake. For instance: if the lowest price you find online is $1000.00 for X then perhaps the dealer selling the same item for $500 has made a "mistake on their proposal". As several have stated in their replies, the deal seemed to good to be true. There is a ton on legal ease on this very subject. Since the deals are completed the ability to prove this is much more complex.

I did make an error in my previous reply, his rate is $325.00 per hour.

Your law lesson for the day.

RW

Robertw

08-31-2007, 07:17 PM

So what have I learned.
Revise the small print on each proposal and invoice.
Double check all details of the sale.
Make certain all my T's are crossed.
Have a better procedure in place for all out of region sales.
Communicate, communicate and communicate again.

Gino

08-31-2007, 07:39 PM

While I can appreciate what you’re saying [writing] Robertw, there seems to be a pattern developing here and I hope I’m wrong. When talking about these deals and those who said this or that…. it’s really none of our business because we’re not going to settle anything for you. Besides, we don’t all have the complete story and as far as I’m concerned…. I don’t want to hear it. It’s none of my business…. only the people involved. I want to know the results so I know where and how to deal with certain companies or individuals, but I’m not on the jury. You’ve told us what you’re going to do and whether any of us, some of us or none us agree or disagree with your findings, nothing will change. So why are you beating a dead horse here ?? Damage control is one thing, but preaching about how moral you and your company are… tends to make me think there is more to this story now. Again, I hope I’m wrong, but me thinkst thou protesteth too much.

Bottom line, regardless who sold the stolen merchandise, who accepted and for whatever reasons… there is a 'Black & White' copy of everything that has transpired and whether your lawyer costs $5. or $500 an hour, you’re the one that retains him…. not us. So if you didn’t need to say that dirty word in your am talks, why are you bringing it up so much now ??

You and your company have just gone through a lot of crap…. so relax, it’s the weekend and come back to this next week and tell us… ‘the rest of the story’ as Paul Harvey says………..

Pro Signs & Graphix

08-31-2007, 07:45 PM

Just make sure communication is clear and contracted properly.

Complacency always leads to failure. This is something that is very evident in the sign industry. It takes being burned to learn that there are no "friends" when it comes to money. Clear and concise contracts are a must in business - period.

Robert - With no intentions of starting anything, and metaphorically speaking, remember that it was your wolf pup that escaped your pen. It was the preceding reputation of your business that loaned the credibility of your wolf. While it may have seemed like to good of a deal to be true, the fact is that on occasion there are deals to be had.

I have watched this thread because, as stated, similar happened to me. How you iron out your differences and seek restitution is your business but when you defend an admitted thief in our midst it becomes our business. Your defending statements would scare me from doing business with your company - just by the shear nature of what now appears to be a contradiction from the original, and even some complicity. (In other words "we will get even with those customers."). As a businessman, I sincerely hope that you see the error and the further damage it has/will cause.

If you choose to try and raise yourself to the level of God and offer forgiveness - so be it, if you think you can. If it were absolutely true, you would not seek restitution even from Matt, again your business and your beliefs.

Me...I am a mere man, and an honest one at that. Forgiveness is solely at God's discretion. My my business philosophies do not include "margins" for honesty and integrity. It is either all there, or it is not.

As you are aware, and as I stated, I have not purchased from you - and although it will not break you (do not want that), I am not so sure now that I ever would. You cannot have it both ways, like sinning during the week and seeking redemption on Sunday.

Replicator

08-31-2007, 07:47 PM

I'm just curious whether or not Robertw and/or UnicaDigital

will be returning monies that were charged to clients unknowingly :help:

Flame

08-31-2007, 07:54 PM

I'm just curious whether or not Robertw and/or UnicaDigital

will be returning monies that were charged to clients unknowingly :help:

Best I can tell.... yes?

It took me a minute, but I can see what Roberts trying to say. What Matt did was his fault, and he has to take care of stuff. BUT, to the people who got burned... don't forget you knew something was probably fishy in the dealings anyways. Like taking on a cell phone instead of a business line, doing stuff out of the ordinary, strange money dealings.... etc.

I don't know all the details, this is just my interpretation of what I've read here.

iSign

08-31-2007, 09:05 PM

...why are you beating a dead horse here ?? Damage control is one thing, but preaching about how moral you and your company are… tends to make me think there is more to this story now. Again, I hope I’m wrong, but me thinkst thou protesteth too much.
Gino, I think Roberts intentions are in line with your own comment that was later taken out of context by bob... I didn't take his recent comments as preaching, but in his unenviable position of suffering losses to his reputation that are impossible to quantify, & losses to his bottom line that are probably substantial (though expected to be reimbursed over time) I believe he is venting a little about the several people who are profiting on this fiasco.

Getting new equipment, below cost, is not a normal opportunity. When it happens with possible red flags, like off hours deals with cell phones, or sudden dated windows of opportunity... well, the integrity of the purchaser is not automatically suspect... and certainly not by me, without the whole story.. but If Robert chooses to share the analogy of the Red Caddie... He obviously feels that the evaporation of so much cash didn't go into thin air... it went into the hands of clients who saw a sweetheart deal & grabbed it. Is it fair to call the difference between what they paid, & fair market value a "profit"? ...Well, that's not for me to say... but if several lucky shoppers are ahead of the curve in equal margin to how far behind the 8-ball Robert is...I don't think he is out of line in pointing that out.

Although I must again say that I don't have all the facts, so this is theory... but I would also guess that Roberts references to lawyers has to do with one of the options available to him, which he is not choosing to excercise.

If I buy stolen goods, without knowing they are stolen... & later it turns out they are stolen... those good WILL be legally confiscated & my money WILL NOT be returned.

Even if all monies ARE returned in exchange for returning the equipment... I think the current recipients of windfall "profits" (savings) would not want legal action requiring their deals to be reversed.

If, in fact, Robert has a legal opportunity to force the undoing of these deals, & has instead elected to work with Matt to shoulder the entire financial burden of honoring multiple money-losing business transactions... I still believe he has earned nothing but respect from us observers, and doesn't deserve anything less.

Would it have looked better if he never posted his last few remarks? Yes, I believe it would have... but I think under the pressure of stepping up and doing the right thing... he sort of wishes even one person who inadvertantly became a winner at his expense, might choose to negotiate an alternative outcome where they did not end up reaping some of the spoils of his misfortune.

You and your company have just gone through a lot of crap…. so relax, it’s the weekend and come back to this next week and tell us… ‘the rest of the story’ as Paul Harvey says………..

I'd like to hear that too.

gvgraphics

08-31-2007, 09:07 PM

Outside sales reps give out their cell # all the time.

From earlier in this thread it was said he could work a deal with Mutoh, so the customer was suppose to instantly assume their was an issue? Come on, how many people go look at new cars and find a dealer who is allot cheaper? Does that make them shady deals? I don't think so, that is part of the sales world.

Now I don't know all of the info and really don't want to but from what has been said here the customers are noway at fault.

iSign

08-31-2007, 09:38 PM

when I was 16, there was this low-life in the neighborhood who offered to sell me "his" camera real cheap... I didn't think too much about it being "his" (or not?) ...I just thought it was too cheap to pass up. A year later, I left it in front of my house when I went inside... & it got stolen! (a small part of me felt vindicated, or relieved... because that part knew it was probably never supposed to be mine)

A year later, there were a bunch of drumsticks & cymbals being mentioned in the high school locker room... that turned out to have been from a drum and bugle corps bus. I was a drummer & had some small degree of use for this stuff, & I guess I paid some small fee for it. They were not the proper equipment for my instrument, but seemed cool at the time, & the cheapest way to add to what few I might have already owned. Some years later, (those cymbals long gone) I was unloading our bands van after a gig... everyone would pitch in and helping the drummer... cause I had so much crap to move... but I guess whoever helped unload my new cymbal bag, full of $1000 worth of professional quality Zildjians, must have just left them next to the front door, in the shadows, thinking I would see them & know where I wanted them to be put. I never saw them again.

I'd like to say I learned my lesson by that time... but not quite. I did finally learn it though. A screenprinter friend told me his buddy had a new iMac in the box, and his friends wife was grumbling that they couldn't afford it, & needed to sell it... for $400... I checked it out & it was in mint condition, in the box... & it was a white one, which I later learned was a high end one, worth over $800. Well I started feeling sick & I called my friend. I told him I had to give it back. I said I wasn't making any judgements out loud, about anybody... but if I saw some of my $400 again, that would be cool... if I didn't... that would still be better then how I felt about keeping that piece of equipment.

Sorry for the appearance of any implied judgement on what went down here. I really don't know what went down here, but I think I understand what RobertW is saying, & I think it has to do with several people getting offered prices that may have looked low beyond belief.

We don't know what vendors pay for stuff, & when liquidation deals may surface... so I don't mean to imply that the feeling in the moment of making these deals was anything like when I bought cheap crap in my youth... I GET IT THAT A (previously) REPUTABLE VENDOR MADE THE DEAL... so it is not at all the same as my unsavory experiences with lowlife backroom deals...

...BUT, now that the smoke has cleared... I agree that the customers were "no way at fault" in signing on for the deal, but they are not immune from Roberts right to question what their conscious tells them today.

gvgraphics

08-31-2007, 11:39 PM

...BUT, now that the smoke has cleared... I agree that the customers were "no way at fault" in signing on for the deal, but they are not immune from Roberts right to question what their conscious tells them today.

I agree with you Isign, I just don't like the fact that the looks of the last post looked like he was trying to pass blame. The consumer or customer in this situation was offered a great deal, by as you put it a "reputable" supplier. I myself would think "Man, they have a good connection with XXXX company, Glad I called them." I would never think something like this was happening in a business of this nature.

I do however feel that Robert should have known or had someone looking into sales as they where made to know what was going on in his business. I am by no means trying to say Robert him self is at fault, but that there should have been some procedure to stop something of this nature from happening. I hope there will be in the future to protect Robert, The Business and most important the buyer.

Robertw

09-01-2007, 12:14 AM

I am beginning to love this forum. Believe me when I say thanks to everyone, even those who are clueless.

All of your comments, understandings and more importantly lessons are a God send to me at this time. It is so healthy to hear from other business owners who freely share life and business wisdom.

I have every right to express my opinion. Everyone who comments, writes or mentions anything on this and every other forum is doing just that. I own my opinions 100% and ask no one to buy into them. If you do then own it yourself.

God, not ever, never will be or even assume to come close. But the Word has many lessons for us to learn about business and human nature. It is the ultimate guide for everyone.

My comments of late do not "blame" those who have profited by Matt's faulty selling through this vehicle. What my comments are doing is to challenge the moral fibers of those who knowing were wrong, such as wire transfer to personal accounts and sending checks made out to the sales person. Hmm what do you nay sayers think about that?

Question: are you a person who when given the wrong change from a distracted grocery teller would tell them or would you think, it's my lucky day a pocket your "reward"!

It won't take to long to know a bit more of everyone who has taken part in this thread. It will be my pleasure to get to know more about you and your business.

For those who say RobertW needs accountability let me show them articles that were written about Enron. We are a company of 5, very busy and very focused. We work in a world of competitive selling and margins sometime are quite low. Our major suppliers give us no breaks and yet we survive in this world. Mistakes happen and we learn, grow up and adapt.

You are all the best and I wish you great success.

RobertW

gvgraphics

09-01-2007, 12:29 AM

onesource

09-01-2007, 12:57 AM

I dunno if it matters to most of us because we don't have to trade with RW but the ones caught up in the misfortunate mistake needs to iron this out, wich ever side it may be. Doesn't mean we can't do business with RW either but you have a point too GV. Lets see what happens!It's funny how more and more facts come out as you try to stand up for your self. To call us Nay sayers is a little far fetched when you only tell bits and pieces at a time, hard to judge a situation on scraps!
I have to agree, you have every right to voice your opinion. I do have to say however, the facts of this issue are not all known, there for, judgment will be passed by some on what is know and not the whole story. The best advice I can give you is to present the TRUE facts to the fullest, and then let there be judgment. The fact of the matter is he said, she said gets know where, truth and honesty get you allot more than you could ever expect.

So if you want a true judging of the situation than please present the whole and true facts and lets see what others have to say. This may be the way to help un-tarnish your business reputation for future sales with members here at signs101. This of course, is up to you and how you what to be seen.

Sean

iSign

09-01-2007, 02:16 AM

It's funny how more and more facts come out as you try to stand up for your self. To call us Nay sayers is a little far fetched when you only tell bits and pieces at a time, hard to judge a situation on scraps!
I have to agree, you have every right to voice your opinion. I do have to say however, the facts of this issue are not all known, there for, judgment will be passed by some on what is know and not the whole story. The best advice I can give you is to present the TRUE facts to the fullest, and then let there be judgment. The fact of the matter is he said, she said gets know where, truth and honesty get you allot more than you could ever expect.

So if you want a true judging of the situation than please present the whole and true facts and lets see what others have to say. This may be the way to help un-tarnish your business reputation for future sales with members here at signs101. This of course, is up to you and how you what to be seen.

Sean

Sean,
do you have a stake in this?

You are judging him, do you realize that? Our country is founded on the premise of innocent until proven guilty, and refined social behavior should be based on similar reservations of judgement.

The situation is unfortunate. Maybe there is more guilt then we know, maybe not. The fact that any of it is being aired in public has to be unplesant for Robert, & if he is guilty of nothing, sparring with insinuations from you & others is an additional stress he could do without.

The man appears to have built up a highly successful company, with an excellent track record prior to this week. This may not be the case, but as I said, that is how it appears. I think most of us can agree that building up a highly successful company does not happen for flakes or fools. Does it happen for unscrupulous thieves? Yes, obviously there have been business built that way too... but I'll refer back to "innocent until proven guilty".

So I would give the man the respect he deserves for running his business as he has in the past, & refrain for calling him to the carpet right now. Calling you "nay sayers" is exactly what you are. He is claiming to be an upstanding professional Aye? ...and some here would rather say Nay first, & ask questions later.

You are telling him to present all the true facts if he wants a true judging of the matter. Did it ever occur to you that:

A.) he may not be in a position to have (or to be 100% sure he has) all the "TRUE facts" ...and:

B.) he may not want your true judging of the matter.

He probably has enough on his plate with his vendor, (Mutoh) his employees, (not just Matt... but the other 4 are probably not entirely at ease today) and several real clients to appease. For all we know, he is trying to appease them.

He may not come out squeaky clean, and he may not repair his reputation with those folks, in which case repercussions will engulf this community as sure as the sun will rise... but I'd rather consider the jury to be out, then to play judge myself.

I've got a concern that his $12000 Caddie for $4000 was a misleading analogy to support his feeling that clients should have known something was fishy... BUT, if there were "wire transfer to personal accounts and sending checks made out to the sales person" (and I don't doubt that, since robert mentions it) ... then some of these clients probably should have at least wondered if something was fishy ... and now, flash forward to today.. they KNOW something was fishy, so what to do?

As bob has said, I don't feel that a client duped by a rogue employee into expecting to buy a dollar for 50 cents (or 75 or whatever) needs to feel obligated to cough up some coin... but on the other hand, if I was in Roberts shoes (based only on what he has told us) I would want to question the buyers complete innocence in some cases.

In his shoes I would probably consider something like this. Say the clients paid 75 cents, for every dollar Robert would have charged them if Matt hadn't succumbed to whatever temptation befell him. Lets say all those quarters that were unethically shaved off their bill at Roberts expense added up to $4K...

..Then I would consider that these new owners of printers will need inks & media for years and years... & if I push too hard for them to step up and help me cut my losses now... they may abandon me forever, AND spread ill will in the sign community...
BUT, if I can encourage each of them to purchase $4K in media and inks TODAY, by offering them a slight price break, while also appealing to their sense of equity & sympathy for how much there sales rep cost me in giving them their great deal this month... then I might see lower profit margins on that media... but I might restore client relationships, while also spiking my cash flow at a time i could use it... and when new printer owners get their learning curve all dialed in with the media I stock... as long as I don't falter again, I may have their business & their friends business for a long time to come.

gvgraphics

09-01-2007, 03:04 AM

Isign,

All that I can say the question of do I have a stake in this is that I know more than is being shown here. In all do respect to the buyers, Robert, Matt, and the company I will not mention any details, also I promised not to elaborate on details to some whom are friends. So that said, I will say no more in reference to the question.

I will also not judge either side until all is know, I was not or should I say was not trying to show blame on Robert, the analogy he used was a personal sale not a business to business as were these. What I as trying to point out is from the sounds of his post, he was passing blame on to the buyer. That to me is way off balance and should not have happened. The mistakes made lay with in his business and employee's. The buyers I mentioned in an earlier post were dealing with a legit company and a known sales rep. They had no reason to doubt the offer being made. The buyer has no idea of the cost of the item to the company or how the company does business with it's suppliers, nor should they. So for them to honestly know that it was a shady deal is almost impossible, and that I will say no more until Robert himself is ready to discuss the particulars of it.

I have spoken to Robert via PM, and will respect both sides of this until proven guilty as you have said.

Valentino

09-01-2007, 06:14 AM

so if a deal is too good to be true, I should know i'm dealing with a swindler? that's the vibe I've gotten out of some of the posts.....I agree with gvgraphics that the sales person is the one to blame.

I agree that potentional buyer has no clue the actual cost of some items. I charge 160 for a banner that costs me under 8 bucks in materials.

iSign

09-01-2007, 06:37 AM

I charge 160 for a banner that costs me under 8 bucks in materials.

$160!! ??

...that's funny, your employee only charges me $140 - CASH!,

...if I pick it up by the back door! :rolleyes:

(oh, yeah... I wasn't supposed to mention it :Oops: )

John L

09-01-2007, 07:29 AM

Is this a clever advertising ploy of some sort?
ie. the beatles.. "paul is dead... paul is dead... paul is dead"

Todd-sta

09-01-2007, 08:54 AM

If you choose to try and raise yourself to the level of God and offer forgiveness - so be it, if you think you can. If it were absolutely true, you would not seek restitution even from Matt, again your business and your beliefs.

Me...I am a mere man, and an honest one at that. Forgiveness is solely at God's discretion.

I've read these posts with some interest...as well as with an unbiased opinion as an outsider to this scandel.

Seems to me Robert has done an extraordinary thing in working out this financial albatross with his employee and his customers in a way that protects his customers and forgives the offending party - thus sparing his family financial ruin for his mistake.

Don't forget - there are more people affected apparently than this Matt fellow behind the scenes.

The statement that portrays God as the only one capable or called upon to offer forgiveness is spoken from your viewpoint....not God's.

If you believe in God, then you must certainly believe in His Word....which clearly contradicts your humanly thoughts on forgiveness. God clearly calls on man to forgive one another....and if he is not capable of this....then he should not be expected to be forgiven his own mistakes from the Main Man himself :

Mat 6:12 (TEB) "Forgive us the wrongs that we have done, as we forgive the wrongs others have done us."

Luke 6:37 (NIV) "...Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Mat 6:14-15 (NIV) "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

These verses posted to refute earlier statements which others might take as fact - not knowing any better.

Now, is forgiveness easy? No way....and I think you can forgive...but not forget. A person that was dealt wrongly by another would be expected to not forget the deed itself...and forgiveness doesn't mean you need to totally trust the person again...or even deal with the person again.

Forgiveness doesn't circumvent responsibility nor justice either. Robert could have clearly forgiven Matt, but allowed the legal system to deal out a responsibility for his actions. I think the two are separate concepts.

What Robert did was what I would call "Forgiveness PLUS"...in that he apparantly forgave Matt...but with an added measure of GRACE and compassion - extended him a way to keep his job and avoid the consequences of legal action.

He apparently did not, however, absolve him of his responsibility for his actions - which, as Robert states - includes a reimbursement schedule to account for the monies fraudulently extracted from the business.

I personally do see Roberts comment about "the cadillac and the *good deal*" as having merit.....there is some responsibility upon the part of the the purchaser to question a deal that so overtly seems way-out-of-line with any other competitive bid. That should send up not just a red flag - but flares.

If you went to an electronics store and saw a big screen television that was half the price of the other 3 big box stores in town - you wouldn't wonder why? Be honest folks....there's a little greed factor in that too.

Forgiveness is NOT easy to be sure...Just so people don't think I'm positioning my self through these comments as being Holier-than-thou I'd have to state that like most people, my first gut reaction to being wronged or slighted is to lash out in retaliation - to seek revenge. This, is a natural emotional response...but not necessarily the right one. This thread has brought to mind a few people I should forgive..and Maybe I should take a few people off my "ignore" button....:wink:

Just my observations.

bob

09-01-2007, 09:56 AM

...
If you believe in God, then you must certainly believe in His Word...

What if you don't? What then?

Belief in this or that as a prerequisite for accepting an argument is a feeble reed.

You'd do better to explain your position without reference to your gods.

Flame

09-01-2007, 10:23 AM

What if you don't? What then?

Belief in this or that as a prerequisite for accepting an argument is a feeble reed.

You'd do better to explain your position without reference to your gods.

your point......???

Pro Image

09-01-2007, 10:49 AM

your point......???

In a hundred years......Who's going to care................?

schurms

09-01-2007, 11:24 AM

Robert,
As you said some are wise and clueless on this board. This wouldn't have happened as you ar clueless about whats going on in your company.

Todd-sta

09-01-2007, 11:53 AM

Bob of earth - if you would reread my post - it was in reference to the quoted statement from Pro Graphics....who ended a line with "Forgiveness is soley at God's discretion."

This would intimate that he had some belief in God and that his understanding was that only God can forgive. I simply pointed out my understanding of what is taught in the Bible as man's responsibility for forgiveness.

You can choose to believe that or devise your own belief system - that is your option in how you express your free will. In any event...what you decide to believe doesn't change the reality of God's directive. My belief is that God's declaration for forgiveness supercedes man's need for revenge...but that's just me.

There is justice and then there is revenge - those are two different things.

I think it IS appropriate to interject religious conjecture into this topic because it's evidently upon these priinciples that Robert has taken the tact he has so aptly expressed. Reread Robert's posts - it's plainly stated that his religious convictions have guided him in his decision making regarding how he views the appropriate response to his employees indiscretions.

In any event...the bottom line is that regardless of who forgives who....it appears that Robert has decided to not pursue adjustments on pricing with his customers, has decided to give his employee a second chance with stipulations and reimbursement of lost funds, and has adjusted his internal tracking methods.

Seems to me it's a win-win situation for everyone concerned....and flame makes a good point...."In a hundred years, who's gonna care?"

Replicator

09-01-2007, 12:00 PM

In reply to a PM by Robertw :

Originally Posted by Robertw
Rep-
don't assume this has ever happened, it hasn't.

Personally I take offense to this comment and you should apologize to the thread
unless you have proof that anyone, anytime has ever been charged by my company
for goods not received.

I'm a straight up business owner with a moral backbone that many business owners
should consider adopting, especially in the area of customer service.

RW

Robert,

I was going by a post on the thread that referred to c/c transactions
taking place after the original agreements were all signed and the iiiiiiiii's
dotted and the ttttttt's crossed.

Originally Posted by bullcrew View Post
Bought a new graphtec fc7000-100 from him at a discounted price
then got a bill for an additional $2600.

If this is untrue then I apologize, but if it is true,
then it's one of those karma situations that will have to play out here,
in the people's court.

This is not a personal attack on you or your company . . .
It is a brotherhood of sign people watching out for one another,
and in a tight knit community like this, word of mouth could make or break you.

I hope that if there were such transactions that occurred,
they will be handled and those persons affected will make it known here.

If that is not the case, then there is nothing to fair
and your honesty and forthcoming of the resolutions
between these parties will win back the hearts of all who respect
the merchants here on Signs-101.

I have never been affected by any of these allegations,
but I have only purchased media.
I did not start this thread and with that in mind
I can only go by what is said . . . I do not judge
until all the facts are in, but so far I've heard nothing but talk of god and lawyers.
NO actual statements concerning what the true accusations may or may not
have been about, or what you have to say that will make myself
and/or anyone else here want to believe that if an injustice has occurred,
that you will be responsible for it.

I heard from several people in pm's that you are a real stand-up guy,
and I want to believe that, but I reserve the right to wait and see all the facts,
or at least all the facts that you care to reveal to the members here,
that will bring piece of mind and closure to this mess.

One final thought that I did not put into the PM reply to Robertw.
As a representative of UnicaDigital and portraying himself as such
while dealing with any unsuspecting clients who may have purchased
items from him that were not approved by you and your company,
Matt and his transactions are ultimately your responsibility,
and no matter how this ends up being handled with Matt,
you do hold some liability in resolving any issues there may be.

That came from a .50¢ an hour lawyer . . . !

~Rep

THATgirl

09-01-2007, 12:05 PM

not that it matters what I think, but I do like the way Robert is here trying to explain the situation and make things right.

But I also agree with what Flamey said
"It took me a minute, but I can see what Roberts trying to say. What Matt did was his fault, and he has to take care of stuff. BUT, to the people who got burned... don't forget you knew something was probably fishy in the dealings anyways. Like taking on a cell phone instead of a business line, doing stuff out of the ordinary, strange money dealings.... etc."

Usually if you know something is priced too low, there is something fishy with the deal. And why would you pay Matt instead of the company?

I hope it all works out for Robert.

Pro Signs & Graphix

09-01-2007, 12:36 PM

Todd -

I will not get into a religious argument, as there is no winning for either "side". Apparently I did not do a decent job of explaining the point I was trying to make.

Here are some of the facts that have been stated:

- Reported transactions between Matt and a few customers (also members) found not to be 100% on the up-n-up.
- Fred speaks with Robert at Unica and states that Matt has been fired and denied privileges to the forum for theft and fraud.
- Robert comes on board and claims that a resolution has been reached, that there will be no attempted action against purchasers, and that Matt has been reinstated, while putting all of this behind.
- Fred reinstates Matt's forum privileges, as per Robert's request.
- Matt makes public admission and apology.
- Robert shifts gears and blame to purchasers.

Here is my point:

Whatever Robert did for resolution and restitution is his business, and his alone. Robert interjected religion as to the reason why he did what he stated but I have to question whether it was about religious conviction or just the easiest, simplest and most assured way to recover the lost funds - but that IS still his business. I agree with and support whatever decisions he deems suitable for him

I became irked when Robert decided to publicly blame the purchasers, giving Matt a form of exoneration. I do not agree with this in any way whatsoever. Is Robert or anybody in effect saying that if I were to purchase media at 20% less than the next cheapest distributor that I MUST know that there media is stolen - I don't think so. Matt claimed that these machines were HIS. With that in mind, why would I question a check being written directly to Matt?

Robert's additional comments seem to show a shift in position. As a businessman, and someone who was actually planning to call (and hopefully even do business with Unica), that "shifted position worries me. Matt personally admitted thievery. The first time is the hardest - for anything. After that it is easy.

To elaborate even further, and while it is understood that they are merchant members, I do not even agree with Fred reinstating Matt's privileges. Matt, in part, used this vehicle (forum), and other forums to carry out his plan. We all know Fred is a very credible man. We also know that Fred has the last word on this forum BUT reinstating Matt's privileges can do nothing more than:

1. Make it appear that there that Matt is a credible person.
2. Place other unsuspecting members/users, of s101, at risk.

Where does the line for honesty and integrity get drawn? I do not subscribe to the religious theories of forgiveness, and even forgetfulness. I know that I am being harsh, and I would much harsher had I been involved in any of these dealings. I am as harsh as I am due to prior personal experience, the fact that I would/will not place myself at risk, AND the fact that I would hate to see other members/friends suffer any harm in the future.

Once a person is proven a thief, they are always a thief, and for Robert to come to Matt's defense is the equivalent of agreeing with the thief.

MobileImpact

09-01-2007, 12:47 PM

i stayed out of this for a reason, in this debate, in these dealings, in this situation there are no winners or losers. Quite frankly, everyone involved in it is at fault. Robert for not realizing what was going on in HIS company, Matt, for being a low life and screwing Robert over, as well as everyone who purchased a bargain, knowing something was wrong and going through with the deal justifying in the back of their minds.

Robert has a long road ahead of him to make things right,
Matt, is a crook and should be in Jail,
Everyone that got the "deal" should do the right thing.

In any case I wish all parties involved the best of luck.

Good day, & Good Profits!

Kevin

bob

09-01-2007, 01:04 PM

your point......???

Attend...

If someone bases their entire exposition on a single premise and then infers all manner of things from that premise then, pay attention, if the basic premise is not accepted then all that follows from that premise is invalid.

Read that as many times at it takes you to develop at least a clue as to the nature of forensic fundamentals.

In simple terms; if someone offers 'God says' and the respondent denies these gods, then the entire argument from that point is fallacious. Regardless of the fervor and zeal of the true believer.

The Sign Dude

09-01-2007, 01:17 PM

I would have to say that Robert has taken the road least traveled in this situation which in turn probably reflects in his business and loyalty to his customers. I dont think the situation was as cut and dry as it might have looked. Hopefully Matt will be able to work through this situation and be an asset to Roberts company once again.

Good Luck to you both
Wish you were closer so we could use you some.

Flame

09-01-2007, 01:24 PM

iSign

09-01-2007, 03:17 PM

Attend...

If someone bases their entire exposition on a single premise and then infers all manner of things from that premise then, pay attention, if the basic premise is not accepted then all that follows from that premise is invalid.

Read that as many times at it takes you to develop at least a clue as to the nature of forensic fundamentals.

In simple terms; if someone offers 'God says' and the respondent denies these gods, then the entire argument from that point is fallacious. Regardless of the fervor and zeal of the true believer.

Wow, uses big words but struggles grasping basic conversation.

:rolleyes:

hahahahahahahahahahahaha
http://www.letterhead.com/ubb/graemlins/rolf.gifhttp://www.letterhead.com/ubb/graemlins/rolf.gifhttp://www.letterhead.com/ubb/graemlins/rolf.gif

...that was pretty damn funny Flame!

bob, regarding "forensic fundamentals" ...while I would never think to call it that, & would never ascribe the same meaning to the phrase if I encountered it out of context... I agree 100% with the forensic fundamentals.

In theory, you are not failing to grasp basic conversation as Flame would say... you are pointing out that, any persuasive paragraph that attempts to justify a viewpoint, will be a wasted paragraph on those who refute the qualifying premise.

The reason Flames comment strikes me as hilarious, besides the short, sweet, small worded-ness of it... is because you do seem to be failing to grasp that while there is a few paragraphs following Todd-sta's "premise" (to which you clearly do not adopt) .

..there is really no "entire argument from that point" to judge as "fallacious"

...Todd's "premise" that you quoted, existed ONLY to refute another posters intrepretation a very narrow concept. Either "man can not forgive", or 'man can (& should) forgive"

iSign

09-01-2007, 04:05 PM

I became irked when Robert decided to publicly blame the purchasers, giving Matt a form of exoneration. I do not agree with this in any way whatsoever. Is Robert or anybody in effect saying that if I were to purchase media at 20% less than the next cheapest distributor that I MUST know that there media is stolen - I don't think so. Matt claimed that these machines were HIS. With that in mind, why would I question a check being written directly to Matt?

Pro, I think Robert and Matt are probably the 2 people who know most, if not all the details here... and the purchasers know many details we don't know... but may not know every detail of all the manuerving between Robert, Matt and Mutoh, or the details of the other purchasers.

that said... I also do not think we are entitled to have every shread of evidence spread out before our little court of public opinion.

While I agree that the outward appearance of all this could destroy the company, and full disclosure might be the best defense (if the facts all vindicate Robert, rather then implicate him) ...I still think it is not right to try to sway public opinion against someone without all the facts.

Is it right for me to try to sway public opinion for someone? I'm sure it looks as though that is my intention, but in reality I am withholding judgement until I see if more information is revealed... but I also wanted to attempt to apply the "innocent until proven guilty" concept.

I quoted what "irks" you because I do not think "Robert decided to publicly blame the purchasers, giving Matt a form of exoneration" I think Robert has questioned whether any purchasers had a gut instinct that something was awry. That is a legitimate question!

As stated above... WE DON"T HAVE ALL THE FACTS... but Robert has enough facts to justify questioning those who received the rewards for something his company is now suffering losses for. He didn't "blame" anyone, and he sure as hell doesn't come off to me as exonerating Matt at all.

What irks me is him being down... and a bunch of people here kicking him because they got screwed in some fraudulent deal in their past.

Let the purchasers finish working this out, & you can bet they will fill us in on whether they were screwed, blamed, or handled professionally. It's one thing to come on here and swap speculative stories about the outside world... but there is someone right here on the board, trying to navigate a sticky situation so criticizing him from out here in the cheap seats, before the facts roll out... that's wrong! (in my humble opinion)

Pro Signs & Graphix

09-01-2007, 06:23 PM

iSign - Your points are well taken. By no means do I want the appearance that I am trying to "kick 'in when he's down" nor sway public opinion. I do not even want to know all of the details, as none of the transactions had anything to do with us.

What upsets me is the comment about a "deal", and the purchasers share equal blame. I cannot agree with that. Just as I used the example of 20% off. Does that mean that any sale, or any deal for that matter is not legit? Does that mean that unless I pay MSRP something is fishy (or stolen)? I would not think so.

Maybe I have an unfair advantage here. I am what I feel to be very close to our main distributor. I know first hand what these things (equipment and materials) cost. I usually try and avoid the quibbling because I realize that everyone has to make money, and prefer to avoid insulting people (sellers) in the process. Because of this, I know these deals were not all that far fetched, and I find it hard to blame the purchasers, if any at all.

All of this gives the feeling (to me) that if we (or you) were to every purchase media or equipment, Unica may try and come back and say "we need more money" after the fact, and that the sales rep "just made a mistake". Nobody I know would ever do business under those circumstances. At this moment, I for one, would be petrified to give a cc # over the phone, prior to a written and signed invoice. The invoking of the "forgiveness" has done nothing but complicate matters, even for those that that were not hurt.

All I am saying to Robert is "Which is it? Draw a line and live by it". I would have never taken this public position if the appearance of "shifting gears" did not present itself. Not only did Robert re-hire Matt, he also asked for his privileges to be re-instated. Do we condone thievery or not? If so, to what degree, or product for that matter? That is something I think we all have a right to know. Anything less is hypocrisy. The rest (the details) is the business of those affected.

Again, I am not kicking Robert when he is down. I know first hand how something like this feels BUT the fault lies with Matt, and the final responsibility lies with Robert - Not the customers.

SignosaurusRex

09-01-2007, 08:19 PM

Pro Image

09-01-2007, 08:30 PM

Rex Im glad that everything has work out in your situation..........

iSign

09-01-2007, 09:00 PM

What upsets me is the comment about a "deal", and the purchasers share equal blame. I cannot agree with that.
I'm known on another forum for being the most prolific user of quotes in my replies. QuoteMeister not exactly being a term of endearment, but equally no sorce of shame... I write to communicate, and part of my communication is always geared toward not being misunderstood.

This is a long thread, I've read it all, & while I might search back to choose or verify words I might want to write, I'm not interested enough to search back to confirm or refute your statements. Did "purchasers share equal blame" actually ever get said by someone else, or is that just you saying that?

Just as I used the example of 20% off. Does that mean that any sale, or any deal for that matter is not legit? Does that mean that unless I pay MSRP something is fishy (or stolen)? I would not think so.

So while you are tossing around the 20% theory... what is that based on?
I wrote yesterday that I questioned Robert's $12K caddie for $4K as an unfair analogy because of some behind the scenes rumblings... If there really were 66% discounts (which I doubt at this point), & there really were an entire deck of personal cell phone or personal checking account irregularities stacking up... and unopened new equipment drop shipped from manufacturer, bypassing the vendor, & sold as "Demo" equipment... then I think "fishy" is an understatement.

If the discounts weren't as deep, and the deck wasn't as obviously stacked as that extreme example... there still might be some details we don't yet have that might warrent Roberts "check what's in your hearts at the end of the day" comments.

All I know is what one member PM'd me about, but even that was not the whole story, just one guy's story... and NOT one that appears as shady as the others appear to have been... (based only on my conjecture from incomplete info provided so far) ...and even in this lesser victim's case, it was a better then 20% break. (and NO! I don't think he should have known, or done anything different, nor do I hear any hint that Robert is asking, or wanting him to)

Flame

09-01-2007, 09:29 PM

Oie...... it's like the never ending, never going anywhere thread.

:Oops:

Just Another Sign Guy

09-01-2007, 09:38 PM

I have some comments and a question to pose to all and to Robert as well. In short, without going into a lot of details...I responded to an ad posted here on this forum for A Mutoh ValueJet VJ1204 48" printer for sale. A demo unit. It was posted as having approx. 150 hrs use on it. The price was originally posted as $11,000 but had at the time of my response been reduced to $10,600 and had additional hours of use as well. It was to come with An extra set of ink cartridges, some cleaning swabs, manual, stand and Wasatch 6.1 *full version*(?!) software. I previewed the stated equipment, along with some additional slightly used demo equipment that I was interested in and did purchase at approx. 10% discount. This preview took place in the showroom at A.U.Digital with both Matt and Robert present.
I agreed to the total package deal put together for this transaction. The same equipment was delivered and setup in my shop, some training was scheduled (for this next week). Here is how I come into this thread.... After having this tread brought to my attention, I reviewed my invoice and noticed that it did not list the software nor the extra equipment, however it did list the total amount of the agreed transaction paid with C.C. ...Now you can see where this would raise a flag and questions in my mind as to What my situation may or may not really be due to the nature of the posts on this thread up to that point. Upon checking my c.c. transactions records, all looked perfectly in order. The same was verified by Robert when he Returned my call. Cool, we're on the same page at this point. Now, Alot has been said that the customer should have known better, getting a "To good to be true" deal. I don't know all the details of the deals made by others but I'm getting the picture that they or at least some of them were pretty much the same situation. Now knowing these details, Was it a "too good to be true deal"? Should I have known better? Should anyone have known better and questioned it as legitimate? Hell No! I'm not taking any real sides or passing any judgments, thats not my place. I do think that some customers as well as myself have some legitimate issues to be handled. I wish the best for Robert, Matt and A.U.D. as a whole. Forgiveness in situations such as this must be based upon not just what is in ones heart, or an entire groups heart, but rather what is in the hearts of two, Man to Man! I would like to think, in a positive attitude, that all of the issues of these "Deals" will be handled in a forthright, professional and gracious manner, without the flexing of egos, the involvement of legal council, slanderous accusations and needless pain and suffering of any kind. I believe that we all will learn something of our selves and each other as we move forward, correcting that which needs correcting and nurturing & sharing with others that which is positive and healthy.

Rex i have seen legitimate deals when i sold sign equipment for a competitor of Unica;s that did not list every item and I would not worry too much about it, granted I would be on alert under the circumstances as well.

I had seen not only the deal that you described in your post but also others posted by Matt... at the time that I saw the deals I did not think anything was wrong with them other than they were a good deal that the distributor needed to sell for whatever reason, it is not unusual for a motivated salesperson to get the word out to sell a discounted product, it was odd that there seemed to be as many of them as there were in such a short span of time...I was also under the impression that Matt was representing himself or his own company and not a representative of another company, in high insight how he presented those deals should have indicated that something was wrong IF I would have known he was a employee many alarms would have been raised...it is always easier to see the warnings after the fact.

I have had communication with Robert and I must say that I am truly impressed with how he has handled this situation thus far. In the last month I experienced great financial loss because of employee theft. to recoup my losses via insurance it has become a legal matter, which has been a very difficult process (emotionally difficult) from the beginning I knew who it was and unfortunately this is going to cause great hardship in the ex employees life and that of his family, I sincerely wish that there would have been another avenue to reconcile the situation and it is refreshing to see someone else use other avenues.

gvgraphics

09-01-2007, 10:51 PM

Here is the quote you are referring to Isign

For anyone who knew the deal was to good to be true!

...play with this. A woman comes to your door, you open it and notice she is well dressed and quite lovely. She offers to sell you the red cadillac thats parked outside on your curb. It's a classic and a real beauty.
She represent a Cadillac dealership and needs money to go back to New York and offers to sell this classic for $4000.00. You think to yourself, how stupid she is, this car is worth at least $12K, something seems fishy but you can't pass up the deal and write her a check for $12K. In your quickness to get a deal you forget to cross your T's and dot your I's. Your inner self was tricked by the greed that surfaced and you knew it, but selfishness became dominate to your common sense.

The car was stolen, you took ownership from a fraud who represented the product through unethical means. The fool was fooled but couldn't pass on the deal.

The words may seem harsh but the reality for the few who took advantage surely know the feeling in their hearts.

Done.

All though his analogy is not all that great as stated before, it sounds like he is stating that the buyers knew this was theft or fraud and yet still made the deal. Why I personally doubt that was the case going on what I know. My thoughts are if you call a dealer for equipment or even a car and they say I can make a deal with xxxx company to get you a good price, would you think it was fishy? Or would you think they are doing what they can to get the sale from you? Most don't know the dealer cost and would have no idea what is invested to make the sale.

This being said, I am by no means passing judgment or accusing anyone, i am simply expressing my personal thoughts.

iSign

09-01-2007, 11:08 PM

I'm quite familiar with where any quotes I made came from, I was asking Pro who said "the purchasers share equal blame"

(the quotation marks here, are to identify which words I asked him about, although he did not use quotes... it could easily be construed he was quoting Robert, though I don't think so)

Sure, that quote you posted identify's when Roberts comments began to bring more heat on him... but in his defense, the first sentence you posted directs the latter comments only to: "anyone who knew the deal was to good to be true!" ... IF ...that qualifying statement (which he didn't put in there by accident) applies to anyone, then ...for them only, he is appealing to any sense of conscience or integrity that may have been compromised by that hunch.

N2Harpz

09-01-2007, 11:49 PM

OK, who will get the last word in? .... This thread is getting waaaaayyyyy too wordy for me to keep up with. LOL

Robertw

09-02-2007, 12:58 AM

It has been a pleasure to take part in this, my first, thread on a forum.
While the subject and reason for this thread is personally painful and somewhat financially devastating to my business I agree that it is getting old.
It is behind me, I have made a good decision regarding everything and will go forward in my personal life and business career with renewed gusto, changes in the way we process business dealings and new knowledge that comes partly from taking part in this thread.

Many have been supporters to my real reason for the continuation of this thread, others as I have stated are clueless. And again I will turn to GOD and say that almost everyone who got these deals knew they really were to good to be true, especially if they did any research on the web looking at prices and who didn't.

By the way, 20% deals are extremely close to dealer cost on printing hardware. In the world of HP Designjet printers this would mean dealers would loose about 15%. Add to all of this the cost of being in business, cost of money to hold inventory and demonstration equipment and you can see why I may have taken a harder line regarding what has transpired.

My intention is honorable. All I want to convey is that we all have a consciousness. Sometimes it will talk to us saying you shouldn't do that or do this or it my say go ahead that a great idea. I believe it's the holy spirit, others may call it something else. We all need to protect our moral fibers. It makes us stronger, wiser, and life is easier to live.

All wrongs are being corrected, no parties involved will be asked to pony up.
I know the "lawyer" word brings many of you tremors but don't be alarmed I was only relaying information, take it with you, throw it away, I don't care.

I will stand up with pride and say my decision to keep Matt was a good decision. I will proudly say that Unica digital is a great little company and the products and service we offer are the finest you can find in the areas that we are a part of. I will also say that I am not faultless, I make mistakes, I am after all human.

I am proud to share my thoughts and feeling to all of you. Again my thanks for lessons in both directions and support from those who are in the know.

The End

Bogie

09-02-2007, 01:31 AM

Campers, it's sounding to me like a situation that is sorta close to home here... A member of the family had an employee who got real heavy into the midwest tweaking scene... Guy had been awake about 8 days when he went to a local hospital to "free" a friend who had attempted suicide (and wasn't gonna be going anywhere). Picked a fight with security, who went and got real cops. Three of 'em. Darn near a fair fight. Guy was in jail for a while, and got cleaned up, and has been clean since he got sprung (on promise of a job and probation).

We don't know the whole story. It doesn't matter. I get the feeling that BobW's standing up for the guy, and that he'll make things right, even if it hurts for a while.

Flame

09-02-2007, 01:54 AM

Man alive... give 'er a rest. This could go on forever.

Deal is done. Either buy from them, or don't. It's YOUR choice.

sheeesh...... this thread is getting tiring.

Ken

09-02-2007, 02:52 AM

OK.. I won't buy from them.
The employee in question should have been taken to a law court. The nice guy approach from the employer was a damage control tactic. Nothing less.
Poop.
Ken

gvgraphics

09-02-2007, 03:06 AM

http://joebrower.com/PHILE_PILE/PIX/FR/smells_like_********.jpg

Just trying for a laugh after this thread, Good Night and

THE END

Replicator

09-02-2007, 09:42 AM

Robertw,

I am not judging you, nor have I fueled the fire here.
I can only operate on facts, and so far what you have have told me sounds reasonable,
but I have also heard that at least (6) persons have made similar deals that have not yet been dealt with . . .

example :

Just curious Matt, is the version of Wasatch a FULL version or a Mutoh-only version?

Chris, full version...Sorry, I should've made that clear. Matt

Robert, this was a blatant lie, and the ValueJet only version cost several thousand dollars
less than the full version of Wasatch which was promised and not delivered (to my compadre - SREX).
It's all in black and white, right here for all to plainly see . . . Is it deniable . . . How could it be !

I have never past judgment on you and I only hope that you post more facts
to clearly state your dealings . . . This is only for your benefit.

This forum by way of many members is connected to many other forums and this could hurt you irreparably.
My concern is only that you have an opportunity to clear up any and all misunderstandings
that have been brought to the forefront of this great forum.

This forum is public and therefore it is a great force for learning, teaching and communicating.
I would feel battered and abused if left by my fellow signers to discover corruption
within our ranks and not be told. This is not an accusation, just a feeling/thought.

I sincerely wish the best for you and your company in the future. Good Luck !

~Rep

EnergyDesign

09-02-2007, 01:56 PM

Ya know, if I were to have been involved in these deals, I would have asked Robert to show me his cost on all "freebies" and then I would pay him his cost +5%, just so my heart would not be heavy. I would ask though that some services he can provide such as tech support, PM, or some other drastically marked up service be offered to me at coast for a set period of time. This world would be a better place if only some folks would learn the definition of accountability and compromise.

gvgraphics

09-02-2007, 02:55 PM

This thread just wont end, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...................

MobileImpact

09-02-2007, 02:57 PM

move away from the thread people. don't read no more... let it die.

iSign

09-02-2007, 03:38 PM

are some people so shallow & aimless that the continuation of this thread, beyond their own desire to discuss it, imposes a gravitational pull exceeding their own free will?

Get over it people... some people will always have something to say about matters that you would walk away from. Walk then dammit!

Don't show up in your weak way with feeble attempts to discredit, or belittle those that choose to continue a discussion.

I don't know if some of you got your belief systems out of some low fiber cereal box... but the rest of the world engages in introspective discussion, considering alternative viewpoints, examining sometimes conflicting data...

Nations are built, and other Nations destroyed on the basis of decisions hammered out through an understanding of group dynamics, & the excessive patience & respect that objective consideration & genuine self discovery requires.

Those who are not up to the challenge, please go look at "funny signs" or "bathroom floor signs" or something that won't be so frustrating for you.