Gerber Edge 1 - Jagged lines with vector data!!?

[pindesign]

Hi folks,

We recently got a Gerber Edge 1, which to this point has been the bain of my existance!

I am trying to print a relatively simple spot color job, created from illustrator .eps file and printed using Flexi Sign 7.6 The artwork I am using is quite small, about 12cm x 5cm, but is also relatively simple.

The file seems to print fine, but the edge does not seem to be able to print smooth diagonal lines. The diagonal lines in the job have a distinct 'stepping' effect. The diagonal stepping also occurs with small shapes made directly in flexisign.

This problem also occurred when printing with the original Graphix Advantage software that we recieved with the printer.

The problem does not seem to occur in process color jobs, or jobs with large shapes.

Has anyone come across this problem before? I am starting to lose my mind! Please help!

Gareth

[pindesign]

By the way, I meant the "bane" of my existance, but lets just say its p%5$# me off :)

[Shovelhead]

Like this??

[Bill Modzel]

The Edge is a 300 dpi printer,not an 1400 dpi inkjet. You will always get stepping on diagonals. It usually insignificant on the final product.

The "dots" on process color printing essentially camouflage that effect.

[Day Sign Co]

That shouldn't happen with spot cplors. maybee you are printing a single color as process

[fenris242]

anyway you could post a pic of it? would make the diagnosis easier

[Fred Weiss]

In Production Manager, increase the LPI settings for the halftone pattern.

[pindesign]

Thanks for the input guys!

Bill, check the images I attached, the 300 dpi res issue is not the problem here. If it was a res issue, i believe the printer would be printing at something like 100 dpi to show the degree of error that it is.

Moody - I agree, it should not happen with spot colors.

Fred, I already did try to increase the halftone screen - to no avail.


Ok so I have attached some pictures:

"edge_stepping.jpg" - This one shows the problem in question - vector data, spot color should show a straighter edge than this i believe.

"stepping 001.jpg" - This next one is what happens if I print the image from a bitmap, As you can see, the 'stepping' is gone, now I am left with the 'normal' fuzzy edges that come from a 300 dpi printer.

If anyone can tell me definitavely that this is 'normal' operation for the edge, than fine I will live with it, but I do believe it should be able to print diagonals without this degree of stepping. The gerber tech here in Australia also agrees with me.

I look forward to your further responses, and thanks again!!!

Gareth :thankyou:

[Sign Works]

Roland Colorcamm PC-600 - Output print resolution up to 1200 DPI = No stepping on vector images, No fuzzy edges on bitmap images. :rolleyes:

Oh Crap! Wait a minute, just found several posts stating that my printer is only good for boat anchor or door stop, never mind.:Big Laugh

[Ken]

.EPS files may contain both vector paths and bitmap images. I suspect you have a bitmap in play here.
Ken

[pindesign]

Just to clarify, I am not after a new hardware solution. I started this thread to solve this particular problem.

There is no bitmap in play, if you read the thread properly and looked at the attached images, you would see that your suggestion holds no weight.

Thanks for trying though.

Gareth

[jiarby]

catch more help with honey than vinegar Gareth...

[pindesign]

True true, Sorry for being vinagery. Both points had to be made but I didnt need to be sour :P

[thesignexpert]

I ran an Edge 1 for a few years and, I hate to tell you, but this happens regularly with very small prints / images. The way I understand the issue is that the Edge 1 (despite what your specs say) is NOT a true 300 dpi printer, it is only an "emulated 300 dpi". The actual "true resolution" for the Gerber Edge 1 is only 150 dpi and then the RIP software somehow smoothes the final output to appear more like 300 dpi.

So, in short, your problem is that there is only so much "emulation" a software RIP can provide for a print head that only prints at 150 dpi. The end result... small objects and text end up looking jaggy and rough.

Tim Evans

The Sign Expert .com (http://www.thesignexpert.com)
"Practical Help for Sign Professionals"

Pro Sign and Graphics (http://www.prosignandgraphics.com)
"A Pro Sign made Easy"

[pindesign]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for your guidance, the print certainly looks as if it is around 150 dpi, so this makes sense.

The problem with finding solutions for the edge, of course is that it is so old and all the techies in Australia that could have given me this fact have since retired. All the new techs, bless their hearts, are just referencing the same specs and reference material that i am.

So its great to get some advice from a previous user of the acutal technology. Thank you!
:U Rock:

If there is anyone out there who HAS managed to find a solution (although this now seems unlikely) - I'd still love to hear it!

I suppose I COULD make all the seps as rasters, which gives a fairly cruddy result, but at least it does not 'step' in the same way.

Otherwise the question becomes how do I break it to the boss that he has wasted his money? :Big Laugh:Big Laugh

Gareth

[Day Sign Co]

Don't think you wasted any money,I thought Image rip was what you purchased for Large format printers.So that bar that runs during output to the Edge that says processing and takes a whole 2 seconds I guess technically is a RIP.

[Gene@mpls]

If it is possible rotate the graphic to a different angle. No always possible but
it will often help if you can.

[pindesign]

Don't think you wasted any money,I thought Image rip was what you purchased for Large format printers.So that bar that runs during output to the Edge that says processing and takes a whole 2 seconds I guess technically is a RIP.


I meant he wasted his money on buying the edge 1 - not the rip software...

(he is a quality freak, and i know he wont accept the output we are getting from the edge) :Big Laugh

[511graphix]

hey thats meeee quality freak alll the way lol. I drive some friends crazy that have helped me during jobs in the past.. but its what I want for my customers and it makes me happy :)

[pindesign]

hey thats meeee quality freak alll the way lol. I drive some friends crazy that have helped me during jobs in the past.. but its what I want for my customers and it makes me happy :)

Me too, quality all the way I reckon! It's funny that I'm consistently expected to wrangle modern-day quality out of old/cheap devices though!

The false economy of getting a 'bargain' printer :)

[Day Sign Co]

I have Flexi, wouldn't even consider it with Edge printing. I know Flexi is suppose to work well,but don't even want to try it. Omega would be worthwhile and everyone should be happy with the result. That would be a shame to see a good printer go to waste. I'll never get rid of mine,someone would have to pry it out of my cold dead hands:Big Laugh

[pindesign]

Sorry to strike a nerve. The edge is GREAT for what it is designed for. It is just I have been trying to make small decals, something which it was never really meant to do well. (as I now know :)

When I have used the edge to make signs, yep, all good, using flexi worked very well.

I'm not sure omega would make any difference in interpolating my tiny graphic at a higher quality... But I can send you the .eps and you could try it if you like?

[pindesign]

If it is possible rotate the graphic to a different angle. No always possible but
it will often help if you can.

A good suggestion BTW :)))

[thesignexpert]

Sorry to strike a nerve. The edge is GREAT for what it is designed for.

Absolutely right, the Edge IS great at what it is designed for. There are a lot of things that the Edge printer excels at and I enjoyed running it (just the dead on spot color matches for stuff I ran years apart was priceless).

I did not mean to infer that the Edge was a bad machine by any stretch of the imagination. I was just trying to shed some light on this particular problem with the small objects.

The idea that Gene@mpls suggested might work and would be worth a try.

Tim Evans

The Sign Expert .com (http://www.thesignexpert.com)
"Practical Help for Sign Professionals"

Pro Sign and Graphics (http://www.prosignandgraphics.com)
"A Pro Sign made Easy"

[Day Sign Co]

You're not striking a nerve,I've printed very small,seems to me that is what it's best at. You're welcome to send a file if you like,I'll run it to see how it does. It should work without rotating, since it's not always an option.

[pindesign]

Awesome I look forward to see the results :)

[signage]

I disagree with you on not being able to make small decals. The Edge do great on small decals if run with software specifically meant to run it!

[Day Sign Co]

We are about to find out exactly what the problem is in the next few days. Cheers

[Bill Modzel]

This is a test file I tried. These were small decals using the Microgramma font. Unfortunately, the vertical strokes printed with varied widths because of the Edge resolution. Being screen printers,we've developed a few practices to minimize the "stair stepping" that the screen mesh effects on our print. To solve or at least remedy this problem we printed the file using different angles until we found the one that "fixed" the issue. Notice the "D" in Kadlec and the "R's" in Corrosion.

We actually added the stepping in this case to improve the final print.

An angle that's close to vertical or horizontal will show the stepping issue much more than a say a 30° angle.
http://www.mod-zel.com/externally_linked/Kadlec.jpg

[pindesign]

Agreed.

I have since found rotating the graphic until the stepping is minimsed helps a great deal. My gerber tech says that the stepping I was getting is 'normal' and the standard way to 'fix' it is by rotating the image until it is optimised.

I am still curious however, as it seems inconsistent that some people say the Edge 1 is "GREAT" for small work and others - like myself - think it is less than great.

The 'small graphics' I am talking about are 3.5 x 7 cm. What are other people talking about when they say 'small'?

And in terms of quality - what are people's tolerances here? I WAS hoping to have a product that had perfect straight edges, as if it had been screen printed, so i look at any stepping and think 'its not perfect' - but maybe other people are willing to live with more stepping???

Like to hear your thoughts...

Cheers

[Day Sign Co]

Sorry I can't get a better picture,but I've been unable to find any signs of stepping. To satisfy my own curiosity I'll print some .32 or something real small soon, I guess with an EPS file. If they say it steps then who am I to argue. Cheers Don't guess this cheap camera has a focus

[pindesign]

Ok, so I have a product that is acceptable for my boss, and our clients. So I will say the problem is solved. We ran the graphic at an optimised angle. Thanks everyone!

[Day Sign Co]

Was there any difference in the photo I sent