Mac vs. PC

[Scott Reynolds]

I have been a PC user for 9 years. Im finely going Mac with a dual 2.7 G5 in the next couple of weeks. What platforms are other people using?

[Rick]

I have a Sony Vaio 2.6 MHZ with a gig of Ram, a Mac 8500 180mhz, A G5 1.8 Mhz with 2 gigs of Ram and a Mac Mini (office stuff only) with 512 mgs of ram.
I am saving up for a Dual mac system once I can justify my CS2 upgrade.

[ApexSpeed]

Mac G5 is the main computer for my plotting system, and we have a Linux-based PeeCee and a Windows 98 PeeCee in the home office, as well. I LOOOOOVE plotting from the Mac directly from Illustrator.

[Bobby H]

I've been a PC user for the last several years. For sign related stuff, Windows and Intel/AMD-based PCs are perfectly fine. It's also arguably best to do web development and web design on Windows-based systems since they display color differently and use different system fonts.

However, I am seriously considering the purchase of a dual processor Mac for my next home desktop system. I have a new Dell notebook and my aging Dell desktop PC still works fine for most purposes. The addition of a Mac would be good for my freelance print-based work and also for video and motion graphics work I would like to pursue. I can do a lot of those things on a PC.

The only problem with buying a Mac is high cost. The CPU tower alone with some decent options (like at least 2GB of RAM) easily goes over $3000 or $4000. Apple's monitors are arguably too expensive. Dell has a new 24" widescreen monitor $500 less than Apple's Studio Cinema Display and with better reviews. New software could nearly double the cost, certainly with adding Adobe's CS2 package and Apple's Production Suite. Overall, I'm looking at a cost over $6000 to get a Mac system configured the way I need it.

Obviously I need to see enough of an advantage from a business standpoint (not the silly Mac versus PC performance arguments) to justify the purchase. What kind of business opportunities can I expect to gain from having a computer running Final Cut Pro? It's kind of a scary thing. It really gets scary if you want to consider adding a lot of video production hardware (cameras, lighting, sound, etc.) into the mix.

There are trends of businesses adding video displays into POP settings, buying message centers capable of displaying graphics and video, but without the knowledge needed to produce the content and do it well. Some of the trends in the economy put some of this possible growth into question. In the meantime, I'm just saving money and trying to make sense out of the situation.

[SteadyBenny]

I've been using a 1.5 gig Pentium 4 (runs plotter) and a 1.33 gig Athlon (design/office) for a number of years. They run Windows 2000 and XP Home. My wife's machine is an AthlonXP 1900+ which is somewhat faster and runs XP Pro. All machines have 2) 512mb memory modules in them. The AthlonXP has PC2700 DDR the others PC133 SDRAM. Two video cards are GeForce2 MX-400's in my machines with 32 mb SDRAM. The wife's machine has Radeon 7500 with 64 mb of DDR. Two muchines have WD 80 gig drives with 8mb cache. One has WD 60 gig with 2 mb of cache.
They aren't rockets. That's for sure. The do serve us well. I'm adding another 512mb to the Pentium 4 as I plan on getting an inkjet plotter in the next few weeks.
I have a laptop with a Celeron 366 and Windows 98se. I've upgraded that to 128mb within the past year. This is my oldest computer. I bought it used 2 years ago from a friend for $200. If I was looking to replace anything, it would be this old laptop, as it is about 6 years old and I'm suprised it still works at all.

[jimdes]

Been in computers since the Commodore VIC 20/ Timex Sinclair 2000. Moved up to an Amiga 2000 (bundled with a toaster) then the IBM PC in the early 90's. I still have a new Commodore VIC 20 in the original packaging . . . I'm such a geek!

Oh, and by the way, the processor speeds should be GHz . . . told you I was a geek. Last time I ran anything as slow as 2.5 MHz was in the early 90's, hehehehe (A la OP)

[Scott Reynolds]

MHz... GHz..., its all the same thing!

On my keyboard the M is next to the G. My finger gust-a slipped. lol

Mr. Mom- "Are you going to wire it in 220? 220, 201, what ever it takes."

[GraphixCALC]

Although I replied as being PC faster than 2.5GHz, I guess 'technically' that is not 100% true. I am running an AMD64 3000+ which I think really clocks at like 1.8GHz. The rest is 1GB of dual-channel PC3200 DDR RAM on a Gigabyte MB and also a Gigabyte ATI Radeon 9600 Pro vid card pushing a somewhat older Sylvania 19" CRT. I also have a 108MBs wireless network that works pretty good.

Have been involved with 'puters for many years now, I guess going on like 20 or better - OMG can that be true!?!? Started playing with Apples, and then finally got our own 8088 PC in like '89 or so with a smokin' 30MB hard drive and 640K of RAM. Hard drives in that day were kinda rare if memory serves, cuz all ya really needed was the 5-1/4" floppies, right? It ALSO had a 3.5" floppy - perty kewl, eh?

Have built several over the years, but just for personal/biz use so far (not for profit, but could I s'pose).

[seaviewsigns]

G4 at full time job... crappy ol' iMac running the plotter for sign business... upgradeing to G5 at home within a month

[High Octane]

PC with amd 64 3500...and intel 2 ghz laptop and 2.53 ghz intel pc

[Kevin Huffman]

Using an old dell at work, 1.6Ghz and 256mb of ram.

Using a 3.2Ghz HT, 2 gig Ram at home.
Using a 2.4Ghz, 512mb HP for my laptop.

All of them do all the things I need to do.

[advsign]

2 Months ago I purchased a new Dell XPS G4 with 4 gig's of ram. I have not been pleased to get a message " Cannot Copy, Not Enough Memory" when trying to copy and paste some things. Also runs slow doing mask, outline and contour cut effects with some of the Aurora Graphic fills. So to speed me up I just ordered a Mac G5 Dual 2.5 system and then today I realized hey "My Flexisign and Colorip is not going to work on my MAC system". Now what?

I read somewhere that you can purchase some type of software and it will allow most PC programs to run on a mac. Has any heard of this before?

Here is the list of software coming with the new G5 and maybe that software is on this list. Most of this stuff is things that I know nothing about.


Adobe Reader 5.0
Adobe Go Live 6.0
Adobe Go Live CS
Adobe Illustrator 10
Adobe Illustrator CS
Adobe Indesign 2.0
Adobe Photoshop 7.0
Adobe Photoshop CS
Adobe Photoshop Elements 2.0
Adobe Premiere 6.5

Appleworks 6.0
Art Directors tool Kit 3
BBedit 7.1
BTV Carbon
Corel graphics 11
Cubebase SX
Disc Warrior
DP4 (Digital performer 4)
Drive 10
DVD Studio Pro 2
Filemaker Pro 6
Film Factory

Final Cut Express 2
Final Cut Pro HD

Font Book
GarageBand
Graphic converter 4.4 US
Image capture
Keynote

Macromedia Director MX
Macromedia FreeHand 10
Macromedia Dreamweaver MX
Macromedia Flash MX
Macromedia Fireworks MX

Microsoft Office X
Microsoft Office 2004

Quickbooks ! Pro 6.0
Quicken 2003
Quicken 2004
Remote Desktop
Rockstar
Roxio Toast 6
Think Free Office
Virtual PC 6
Virtual PC 7 (with XP Pro installed)


Ken

[Derf]

Ken- I have 2 G5s and love them, I also have FlexiSign PRO that RIPs great however the new Virtual PC with Win XP pro is great as long as you have plenty of RAM 2-3 Gigs will work.

Derf

[JMDigital]

I use PC's , Started building them in the early 90's, I dont have a problem with MAC's its just that PC's are cheaper.. more bang for the buck. And all the cool software that was mac ony (adobe stuff) is now for both . so I dont see the extra $$$ for a mac..


:peace!:

[gcljlamb]

Ken,


What Derf wrote is true. You're just needing an emulation software package. He mentioned Virtual PC which is perfect for what you're talking about. Just remember what he said about the ram; Doing the VPC thing is (I'm sure you've heard) like running one computer within another. Resource intensive. So make sure you have plenty of resource.

I do all of my sign work on a PC P4 3.2GHz with a gig of ram.
I run a Dell Latitude laptop P3 650MHz machine at home with 512M of ram.

Ah, and then there're my Macs. I have an original Mac Classic, a Mac Color Classic, (Still running music sequencing software on it as recently as last night)
a Mac pizza, a Power PC 6200 with Freehand 8 (obviously haven't ran any graphics stuff on it for a while), and one of the original G3's that came out before all of the blue tower versions. It's still in the beige case with the staggered shape to it.

Good thread!:thumb:

George

[Zardoz_Canada]

i hear you mac guys are gunna be sportin' a 2 button mouse pretty soon. That darned 'learning curve' is gunna hurt eh? :tongue:

[mark in tx]

Using a Dell Dimension 1100 with 1 gig ram, P4 3 GHZ, Windows XP to run FlexiPro for the Mutoh printer and the Graphtec plotter. Using a G5 iMac for design work(photoshop, Illustrator), and an old G3 700 iMac up front for the customer show and tell. They still love to see those things.
I've always thought you should use the best tool for the job, and everyone has their own idea of the best tool.

[Sabre]

PC All the way! I got spoiled quite a bit when I was hired and asked what kind of system I wanted for design/production. Being new to the sign biz, I just picked the fastest of everything:

AMD Athlon 64 3500
4gigs DDR400 RAM
74Gig Western Digital Raptor
Matrox Parhelia PCI-X (I'm not very familiar with this chipset. I understand it's a favourite for graphics pros)
Dual Viewsonic P220F 22" monitors at 1600x1200/85Hz
And a bunch of enhancements to make it look as fast as it goes. I plan on laying some vinyl on the side of the case, so I'll be sure and post it when I'm done. :)

[Bly]

i used both but now just use pcs.. can't see what all the fuss about macs is about. sure the boxes and interface is a bit prettier.
but for workin, i got adobe cs2, quark and everything else a mac can do on my little old XP pc. mac users come in, i open their file and they don't know it's a pc most of the time, mainly cos of the sony monitor

[Cadmn]

AMD processor are hard to beat in the pc world been building with them for over 10years & have always been a fan of them.about time to beg the boss for a new one :)

[JMDigital]

Just read about MAC signing a deal to use INTEL chips now in the next version of mac. I guess they want the speed boost.. this means we will soon see a computer that will be able to run both MAC OS-X and WINDOWS XP... A dual booting pc. It reminds me of dual booting Windows and OS2 Warp

:thumb:

[txsurfer]

In my shop I have 5 Macs, and 2 PC's, I run both every day, I only use the PC's to open a file or converting a file to a pdf, or with my accounting. You can't even come close to a MAC when it comes to design, I am talking about real high end design, not fonts and reverses!

[Bobby H]

Specifically, what "high end" design tasks can a Mac do that a PC cannot?

I only ask that because I think such statements like "you can't come close to a Mac when it comes to design" is platform religion baloney.

[jayhawksigns]

Specifically, what "high end" design tasks can a Mac do that a PC cannot?

I only ask that because I think such statements like "you can't come close to a Mac when it comes to design" is platform religion baloney.

I wonder the same thing. A while back I compared my less than stellar design station against some Photoshop benchmark figures from Macs I found online. And those dual G5'a really were not any faster, especially when you figure in the price. And I don't see where Macs have a software advantage anymore.

[Bobby H]

I'm not really concerned with computer hardware speed comparisons between Mac and Windows-based machines. Expensive high end hardware will allow you to perform tasks faster. In terms of actual design work, most tasks are possible with many kinds of computer hardware and in many price ranges.

The question I pose to txsurfer is specifically which sorts of design tasks are impossible to do on a PC. What "high end" design task absolutely requires a Mac?

One can make a case for Apple's Final Cut Studio suite of audio-video authoring applications. That's really the only thing that has me interested in buying an Apple-based system. Apple Shake and Logic Pro are impresive high end compositing and audio editing applications.

However, for every Mac-only "killer application" there's impressive Windows based alternatives. Consider the recent movie "Sin City." This show was shot in HD video and produced on regular WindowsXP workstations. Among applications used: Lightwave3D and Eyeon software's PC-only applications DFX+ and Fusion for effects work and compositing. Most 3D animation work is now created on Windows PCs. Most film effects houses do their final renders to AMD or Intel-based render farms running either Linux or Windows. Even Steve Jobs' company, Pixar, did their final render of "The Incredibles" on Intel hardware (all their previous movies were rendered on Sun-based render farms).

[Mardi]

First computer (besides zx-81) I ever used was a Mac.... I loved it! Being in graphics industry it was a natural choice.

Than I was introduced to DOS.....Wow...it blew me away with its possibilities. I was suddenly able to create my own batch files, snoop around the system itself, diagnose and fix problems etc.
Needles to say, I switched. At the begining it was a struggle because most of good graphics stuff was coming out for Macs first, but that has changed now.
Until recently I had a Mac to keep me fully compatible with any files I would get, but now, there is no more reason for it and I am 100% PC.

Macs still have a place, mostly in movie industry, but otherwise became overpriced and over rated. Besides, Sign industry is geared towards PC users and supports PC-s much better than Mac-s

Unless one has "emotional" attachment to Mac computers, I suggest to stay away from them.

my 2c

[sullosau]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vci_9yaOZe4&mode=related&search=

enough said, PC all the way here :)

Steve

[Fred Weiss]

http://www.allcompu.com/myicons/gfield5.gif

[maxxgraphix]

Dual CPU MAC's are wickly fast. But, OSX is slow and has compatibility limitations. OSX is based on FreeBSD (a unix platform) with a Apple GUI. You can compile opensource linux apps to run on OSX. If you wish to run OS9 apps you'll have to launch the oS in a shell same as running Wine in a shell.
Until Adobe or Flexi or Onyx writes a true posix application the PC is best for speed and compatibility. Granted that Winders sucks and has security flaws as bad as our US airports, but that's wht we have to deal with. Anything that is a server should be linux / unix. Linux is making ground with design apps. GIMP is getting close to Photoshop and can support multi cpu.

I had a Sinclair ZX-81, back when a casette tape backup was awsome.

[Just Another Sign Guy]

i am a pc guy however i really wish that mac had compatability with a broader range of output devices. if they did i think we would see them with a much larger market share than they have now in our industry. the only reason that i feel this way is that the majority of the design firms and companies that employ a college educated designer that we work with create almost every project on a Mac we have one but we really have no output options here...

[Techman]

The only thing that makes a MAC a "MAC" is the user and his attitude.

Essentially, MACS and PC's became incestous in around 1992 when they both went common source and dropped the proprietory hardware. MAC's and PC's use all the same hardware, networking cards, USB systems, Firewire, hard drives, video cards, memory chips every thing the same.
The only dif is the OS and that is quickly changing too. So now MAC's and PC's are all about the same. So if they both use the same hard drives and other goodies how can one be better than the other.

Truth is. Neither one is better than the other. They both have their uses and the limiting factor is software for the job.

MAC's have a limited amount where as PC's have thousands of different titles. For example. There are at least 300 different DVD burning utils.
Speed? with late model PC's are just as fast if not faster as a MAC. Processing time for the average user here is as fast as you can hit the enter key with barely a noticable delay between enter and done.

[Geary]

Mac Addict here. Got into them as a graphics guy when Illustrator88 came out. However, learned IBM machines since that was all the sign shops were using primarily.

These days, it's both. I've been in shops that have just all Apple based designers and then I've seen both Mac and Windows designers. Both scenarios all outputting mostly to IBM based plotters, cutters, printers, and routers.

I've used both platforms for years, as I've stated, and Macs aren't as "crashy" as PCs and of course there's the whole virus issues for any computers that are online. I know that viruses can be "caught" by Macs....however, I've never seen it nor have I ever met anyone personally that has had a complete failure due to bugs. On the other hand, I've been in three shops where multiple tens of thousands of dollars worth of time and jobs files were lost due to infections in the old easily tweaked DOS-based machines.

As far as designing for todays sign industry needs.....I don't see any remarkable differences between Macs and Windows design stations.

As far as the new Macs running Windows. It's already here...and I'm talking "boot camp" not Virtual PC. Read about it here.... http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

~Gear

[toddmn]

I call this my "winPOD". I love showing it to all my iPOD friends. Its an iPOD docking station which I dremeled out the holder to fit my windows pda phone. Running windows mobile 5. Plays tunes on my desk all day. I think the hardest part of the whole project was weeding those dang letters which are only .2 inch high. And yes I can stream internet radio and XM over it too along with playing full lenght movies.:smile:

[Geary]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vci_9yaOZe4&mode=related&search=

enough said, PC all the way here :)

Steve

Steve,

That is a hilarious parody skit. Especially to those few who did actually have a few of those unlikely problems he mentions many years ago when we were using OS7 or so.

Hey I got a funny story too! Ya wanna talk Win95 or how 'bout NT? LOL Now that's some funny crap Microsoft tried out on us, wasn't it? Four hours of production.....four hours of rebooting. 8 hours up.....ching! Go home....do same thing the next day, the next, the next. Then BANG!!! Virus shuts the whole shop down. Buy new computers and start all over. Wow....now those were some fun days. Thanks for the memories! :thumb:

Like what's been said already, today's a different day. Everything is good and getting even better.

~Gear

[FrankenSigns.biz]

This is a debate that will never end. We all have our preferences. I prefer Macs. Macs in my shop are numbered 5 to 1 over PC's. I feel the Mac OS is 10 years ahead of MS. If Macs are more expensive, I've never felt the pinch. Maybe it's because my Macs rarely crash and I have NEVER wasted hours expunging viruses or spent extra dough on virus fighting utilities that have to be renewed every year to the tune of $40 per PC! Macs are more expensive? That's hogwash and MS propaganda. It's all a matter of preference, I'm not going to change any minds to sway to my preferred Mac OS, and no Mac bashing is going to cause me to change my opinion. It will only reinforce it.

And Toddmn, what's with this iPod bashing? Nice work and no offense but with all the time you spent creating this iPod knock off, you could have spent a few bucks and got the real thing. I was walking through my plant recently and I noticed everyone in the room had little white earbuds. Man, give it up, iPods are the ultimate widget with a PRIZE inside!

[toddmn]

This is a debate that will never end. We all have our preferences. I prefer Macs. Macs in my shop are numbered 5 to 1 over PC's. I feel the Mac OS is 10 years ahead of MS. If Macs are more expensive, I've never felt the pinch. Maybe it's because my Macs rarely crash and I have NEVER wasted hours expunging viruses or spent extra dough on virus fighting utilities that have to be renewed every year to the tune of $40 per PC! Macs are more expensive? That's hogwash and MS propaganda. It's all a matter of preference, I'm not going to change any minds to sway to my preferred Mac OS, and no Mac bashing is going to cause me to change my opinion. It will only reinforce it.

And Toddmn, what's with this iPod bashing? Nice work and no offense but with all the time you spent creating this iPod knock off, you could have spent a few bucks and got the real thing. I was walking through my plant recently and I noticed everyone in the room had little white earbuds. Man, give it up, iPods are the ultimate widget with a PRIZE inside!

Other then the fact that its was more of a joke I played on my 28 year old son whos incested with ipods and macs thats it. I really have nothing against them, they may work for people that want to spend the money on them. Myself, I wont when theres a cheaper, better option in my opinon in music players. Alot of people are amazed when they see what a modern pda phone can do over an ipod. I have unlimited high speed internet on my cell plan. I can stream live television to my handset, watch full lenght movies, listen to internet radio and listen any music and I am not limited to who I have to buy it from or what format its in. Did I forget that it has bluetooth and works as a voice navigaton system with my bluetooth wireless gps too in my truck. Sorry if you took it as bashing, It more on the line of parody for me :smile: I also own an ipod, its sat in my desk drawer ever since I got this MDA months ago.

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

toddmn - Just curious, who is your service provider, and what do you think of their internet service?

[toddmn]

toddmn - Just curious, who is your service provider, and what do you think of their internet service?

I think I've been with t-mobile for over 5 years now. Ive been though them all like everyone else has. I like gsm providers so I had a choice of tmobile or cingular/att in my area. tmobile is still edge only on there internet but is going 3g sometime next year. I still get around 200k off the edge service which suits my cell internet needs fine. tmobile was considerably cheaper then cingular on the same package I have. I get the unlimited internet on the phone for 19 bucks a month under a blackberry plan. It still gives me internet access from any other phones I use the sim card in (I have 4 different phones I swap the sim between). I run a tv tuner card in my home pc and then stream that over ORB so I can watch it anywhere on my phone( cant miss the Twins playing). Yeah I admit it, I'm a 50 year old technology geek :smile:

[Mardi]

This is a debate that will never end. We all have our preferences. I prefer Macs. Macs in my shop are numbered 5 to 1 over PC's. I feel the Mac OS is 10 years ahead of MS. If Macs are more expensive, I've never felt the pinch. Maybe it's because my Macs rarely crash and I have NEVER wasted hours expunging viruses or spent extra dough on virus fighting utilities that have to be renewed every year to the tune of $40 per PC! Macs are more expensive? That's hogwash and MS propaganda. It's all a matter of preference, I'm not going to change any minds to sway to my preferred Mac OS, and no Mac bashing is going to cause me to change my opinion. It will only reinforce it.

And Toddmn, what's with this iPod bashing? Nice work and no offense but with all the time you spent creating this iPod knock off, you could have spent a few bucks and got the real thing. I was walking through my plant recently and I noticed everyone in the room had little white earbuds. Man, give it up, iPods are the ultimate widget with a PRIZE inside!

I am not trying to "bash" Macs, I would rather "bash" Bill Gates but....

Fact is that Mac machines are way overpriced. Anything that has Mac logo on it bears a hefty price just for the sake of the brand name.

There is a reason for that too. You can not possibly have per sign cost for
order of one sign versus order of a hundred signs. That is the main reason for their higher price...number of Mac users in the world is minute compared to PC users.

As far as operating system goes, I would like it a lot better if I could get "behind the scenes" to tweak it, and ultimatly screw it up (like I did numerous pc-s) :)
Biggest problems aroused when I had a crush (not only once) on the Macs and tech support would ultimetly be able to help me only with reformating the HD. That can be extremely irritating. I was NEVER (yet) forced to reformat my PC drive.

No doubt that they are more secure. The reason is again the popularity. If the numer of Macs and PCs in the world would be switched, PCs would be a more secure too. Who would bother to make viruses that would afect only a minute portion of computers in the cyber world. The notion that operating system is safer roots in this very fact.

Bottom line is that if you take care of your machines (please people, clean your computers at least once a year from the inside) you will get to use them till they become absolete no matter what platform they are.

There are shorcomings and advantages to any system and as long as we are aware of them and learn to deal with them it is ok.

Machines do not create our products, its us who run them that do!

As far as the I-pod.... my daughter wanted me to buy her one. We stood in the Mac showroom looking at these neat litlle gadgets, I talked to a sales person who answered each of the questions I had ... then I turned to my daughter to tell her that she can do a lot better with different brand of MP3 player for the money and explained why, but left the ultimate decision to her.

We walked out with the brand new I-pod!

Eh....the power of marketing

[FrankenSigns.biz]

Eh....the power of marketing

Besides being one of the most successful consumer products in the history of mankind, the iPod has changed our behavior and even our society. It has transformed Apple from a computer company into a consumer electronics giant. It has completely remolded the music business, altering not only the distribution but even the ways in which people enjoy and think about music. Its vastness and its universally acknowledged coolness have made it a symbol for the digital age itself, with commentators remarking on "the iPod generation." The iPod is beginning to transform the broadcast industry, too, as podcasting becomes a way to access radio and television programming. I admit millions like me obsess about this gizmo, reveling in the personal soundtrack it offers, we bask in the social cachet it lends us, even wondering whether the device itself has its own musical preferences sometimes. In the future when people look back at this part of our young century, historians will still have plenty to say about this wonderful device. This is not a product of good marketing. This thing is a fluke. Apple didn't intend this to happen. It just happened and I don't think we'll see anything quite like it again in our lifetime.

[djenurm]

I'll have to disagree with points I saw in the last two posts.

It's been proven time and time again lately that compared to other manufacturers Apple actually often comes out cheaper when you compare similiar specs. They used to seem more expensive when you couldnt compare the components but not anymore. Yes you can find a cheapo pc that is "cheaper" but Apple will not stoop that low it's not worth it to them to play in the low end. You get what you pay for.

The unix os does have just as many tweakable if not more attributes to mess with than windows. If you owned one and thought of something you would like to change, google it and you'll probably find a hard way to do it and also a simple program for tweaking it just as you'd find with Windows. I can compare the two pretty easily as I have both operating systems running at the same time on my Apple iMac, and for those that don't know this yet - it's full speed ahead and no emulation involved.

The security through obscurity myth is repeated time and time again yet still seems to carry on. The FreeBSD Unix code that forms the foundation of OS X has been prodded by legions of expert programmers for 30 years. Many orders of magnitude more people have looked over the source code for OS X and the related BSDs than have access to Windows source code so many of the obvious holes in OS X were closed years ago. That, some suggest actually makes OS X a more attractive target. According to Apple there are at least 19 million OSX users and still zero viruses. According to CNET, the Windows Vista Beta was released "to about 10,000 testers" at the time the first Windows Vista virus arrived. Shouldn't the 10,000 small at the time Vista have been obscure enough to hide from virus writers using this logic? Does anyone reading this not think that a real OSX virus wouldn't make headlines everywhere? There are so many Windows viruses that writing a new one is hardly noticed. If I were a fame-driven cracker with solid technical skills, cracking a BSD-based system would be the fastest way to show off my capabilities. Its just too hard to do thus after 8 years of doomsday predictions it still hasn't happened. The media is to blame for carrying this myth... so and so at Symantec (who wants to sell mac users protection) says macs are unsafe (and this IS where these things start). The newspapers and tech writers pick this stuff up and write whatever it takes to get the most interested readers using the "expert" as their source. The NY Times David Pogue understands the myth after making this mistake recently wriiting "I also wrote that Mac OS X and Linux are virus-free because they offer virus writers a much smaller “audience” than Windows -- a notion that’s been much repeated in the press, most recently last week’s BusinessWeek cover story. That, as it turns out, is a myth, no matter who repeats it. There’s a much bigger reason virus writers don’t like Mac OS X and Linux."

As for the iPod being a fluke or another brand being able to do better for the money? I don't even know where to start with these statements. I agree that Apple didnt expect this much of a response and that is in itself a fluke, but for the iPod being a better product... that was planned and successfully executed. It is so hugely obvious how much better their fit and finish and attention to detail are that I can't believe someone in the graphics or sign business can't see this glaring difference between the ipod and the also-rans.

Well enough .02 for now. I don't mean to offend anyone I'm just tired of people carrying on these Apple myths.

Dave

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

Dave -

Apple's OS X is not as virus free as most would believe. There actually was a virus for OS X this year. Another myth is that Macs do not crash. That is just not so - they are just as capable of crashing as other computers. What I have always liked about the Macs is, just as you stated, they have always leaned towards a higher-end component and the new Intel Mac is not any different.

As for the Ipod, there are many other just as capable machines available - and I for one am glad too see some of the air come out of Ipod's cost. Ipod's largest threat is coming from Sandisk and their flash players with no moving parts. (Sandisk is #2).

The biggest advantage of the Ipod is that they have the largest selection of aftermarket accessories - if it matters to the purchaser. To throw a wrench in the works, I understand that some of these third party add-ons will not work with the latest generation of Ipod (or at least the new Ipods will not work with the older accessories).

[Techman]

they have always leaned towards a higher-end component

Again I ask. What is the higher end component? They use the same hard drives. the same meory, the same video and sound? So where is the higher end component?

[djenurm]

Techman that is a good question. I don't know how to back this up or quantify it but I know that I have read about them being very strict with their suppliers as far as visiting the manufacturing plants and demanding above industry average tolerances. Their cases, especially the pro line are far above what you find in an HP or a Dell. Have you ever seen how thick the aluminum panels in a pro case are? They didnt have to do it that way but did because cost is not high on the list when they design as it is with other manufacturers living on cut throat margains. They don't buy a bargain basement power supply because they dont have to. I actually like macs better because of the build quality over any other reason. Even their cheapest iMac has a fit and finish that is far superior to anything else in its $999 price range. They aren't using cheap abs and stamped pot metal like most everyone else. Its funny but Steve Jobs is so anal about product design that he nit picked over the feel of even the headphone jack on the ipod. Mike Evangelest, an ex Apple employee goes over many such examples throughout his online book "Steve Jobs I've Known" here http://writersblocklive.com/part-13 It's interesting to learn how things go on behind the scenes there. For many parts you are right, The processor hard drive and memory are no different than what you get in a dell. It's the overall quality of the machine that makes it different.

Dave

[2NinerNiner2]

yeah, those darned Macs are SO much more than the others... :)


...and I didn't even get into the included software equivalents, just, as Techman say, "the parts":

17" Display
2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo
2GB RAM
160 GB HDD
8x DVD RW
256 MB Video RAM

Yeah, give me a Mac any day! ... I can't afford the others :)

[FrankenSigns.biz]

Dave -

There actually was a virus for OS X this year.

Would you substantiate this statement?

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

Color - Here is a link to what happenned early this year.

http://www.gopaultech.com/?p=262 .

Considering that we do not have Macs, we cannot say of any personal experience other than what we read long ago. We have been fortunate that we do not deal with viruses on our PC's.

Tech - To clarify about "high-end", Apple at one time used primarily name-brand components. I do remember that even with the PC's there was a time that if we did not spend the extra money on "name" there was going to be an RMA. Even the warehouse did not get it, as they sold many of the same no-name to other customers and never had an issue. Much of that has changed now, but I still have my favorites. At the same time, knowing that you were certified and deep into the PC business, I cannot even attempt to claim to be on the same level as you are :thumb:

[djenurm]

I have been a VB programmer for years, in fact it was my line of work until I've gotten myself into this. The link to PaulTech describes a trojan, it does not do anything that the operating system was not designed to do. I could write a program that deletes your C drive and post this program on my web page for download. It's easy to do, Microsoft's development tools allow pretty much anything as they should. You could then download and run it and it will do as intended. All of this requires user intervention. You had to make the choice to download and run the program. Your system was compromised because you gave the program permission to run. I could do the same thing using Apples XCode to royally screw up an OSX install. What would make it a trojan would be my telling you that it was a cool new piece of sign clipart so you go ahead and run it.

Where OSX differs from Windows is that the hackers have not figured out a way to get an executable onto an Apple and have it run against the users will. Windows virus writers have no problem getting this done. There are Windows viruses/spyware that will self replicate spreading like wildfire through helpless Windows computers on the internet hidden from the users view. You don't know until it's too late. Paying Symantec for security software is like putting a security guard in front of a wide open door, it helps but something sneaky could still slip by. This just does not happen with OSX, the far superior old school UNIX security does not allow for it, you have to give it permission first. Technically with a trojan the operating system was not compromised, the users intelligence was.

Dave

[Techman]

Windows virus writers have no problem getting this done

99% of the time when you use Internet Explorer and Outlook.

[iSign]

I agree that Apple didnt expect this much of a response and that is in itself a fluke, but for the iPod being a better product... that was planned and successfully executed. It is so hugely obvious how much better their fit and finish and attention to detail are that I can't believe someone in the graphics or sign business can't see this glaring difference between the ipod and the also-rans.

Dave

with 6 pc's (well, 7 counting the unopened box delivered this morning) & 10 years of completely virus-free pc allegiance... I think Mac's are great... I just have no need for one. I had a G5 Imac, and while cool & everything, it just didn't offer me a single thing I needed... so I returned it

...BUT, I finally gave in & bought myself a 30 gig iPod. I sync'd my 2500 songs off my PC version of iTunes... and I love it.

I looked at the "also-rans" & I have to agree with Dave. The iPod is the best mp3 player I saw. (sure, the others should sound as good... but while style isn't everything, it's something... and from a durability standpoint, I trust Apple)

(there was one also-ran that looked comparable... but it wasn't cheaper, so I figured I might as well go with proven technology)

[SignCrafter]

My new Mac Pro rocks! I can run window on it too so it does whatever I need it to. Rips 1 gig .tifs very quick to my printer.

[Geary]

This subject is sorta timely for me. I have an uncle that just walked into my studio yesterday and said...."oh, your a mac guy. Really elitist, eh? You Mac guys are always lookin' down yer noses and lookin' to pick a fight at everyone else who's a PC user." Okay, let me just say, I wasn't pickin a fight, and this statement came from THE "penney pincher" in my entire family. And there's a LONG line of penney pinchers there. LOL I calmed him down though when I asked him how he liked all the new Mac ads on TV. He actually chuckled out loud about them. So, there ya go.

Am I making sense here. I can't tell. I've just returned from a gig and some people bought me four glasses of wine. The last one being a HUGE champagne.....so, I can't tell if I'm being funny or just a jackass. Ever get that way? :tongue:

LuvYa,
Gear


ps....SignCrafter, I'm jealous, I haven't saved up enough nickels yet for my new one. Can't wait. :thumb:

[weaselboogie]

I usuuuually have moorre missspellings whhen I"m that wayy.

I got a deal on a refurbished Dell.
3.6 ghz P4
2 gb Ram
128mb video
160 gb RAID drive
dvd-r
$550


I have 3 refurbished dells, the oldest is 7 years and I only had to replace the hard drive. Bash dells if you will, but I have had the best of luck with them.

[macace]

well we are using mac's... we do have a pc as an cut server...
all is done on the mac's and then cut thru the pc...

What cut apps do U guys use om the mac?
we use flexi 7.5

[decals]

I have a Core2Duo Macbook. 2ghz w/ 1gb ram and 80gb hdd. I love it. Whereas.. I've got a PC with a 3.4ghz Intel P4 with a gig of ram and 80gb hdd that is nothing but a pain in the neck. The Macbook is great for my college classes, watching movies, burning dvds, etc. Its also nice for design but the graphics card is a bit underpowered for gaming. I would recomend the Macbook Pro for gaming.. but this is all about vinyl graphics and not game graphics =) Anyhow.. through experience, the macbook runs circles around desktop macs with the exception of the dual g5.. which is a beast.

http://a414.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/17/l_8e5e020f5ba7c16753178d44b0b93b95.png

[The Vector Doctor]

I think you have that backwards. The Mac notebooks are excellent machines but they are nowhere near as fast as the Mac Pro desktops. Those have 2 Dual Core Xeon Processors while the best notebook apple offers is a Single Core Duo chip. The Mac Pro desktops blow away the laptops which is to be expected.

[Geary]

Hey Doc,

I think he did say the new g5 is the exception....calling them the "beast". :wink:

Oh, yeah and then there was this I wanted to share, I was just reading the specs here http://www.apple.com/macbook/intel.html on that Core2duo. Wow. Advancement in technology still blows me away when you don't read up on the latest stuff in the last 6 months. Just LOOK at how much has happened. :cool1:

~Gear

[The Vector Doctor]

Yeah, I noticed that afterwards. But actually the "new G5" is the older model. Photoshop is faster on the older G5's but that will change when Adobe releases CS3. The only desktops that I know of that the notebooks "run circles around" would have to be the Mini's.

[decals]

I'm not too fond of the iMac (w/ same specs as my macbook).