Wrap Industry… Your Thoughts?

[Joe Diaz]

I ask this, because I wonder how lucrative this niche market really is. Do the people that do wraps more then once a week only live in more urban areas? And if so have you always been just a wrap company, or did your sign company evolve into just a wrap business?

Do you think the excitement over wraps is nothing more then a selling spree by suppliers to sell us sign artist thousands of dollars worth of wrap equipment, wrap classes and wrap materials? Or, are they simply responding to the demand for such products and services? Or is it a little of both?

Are wraps even a positive form of advertising? I personally think so, but it depends on if the wrap is content driven or not. It’s true that they are eye catching, but how long before the shock and freshness of the wrap scene wares off and they start to have equal or lesser impact then lower cost super graphics, or partial wraps? How long do you think it will be before customers realizes the low return of their investments in poorly designed, non content driven or poor contrasting wraps and start seeing all wraps in the same way?

Is there a place to go, to learn proper design and advertising techniques, before sign novice shop owners jump into the wrap industry? Are forums like this the best place to learn? Are their classes on the design principals and effective wrap advertisement design?

I prefer to think that the wrap industry is still in its infancy and there are a lot of mistakes… and at the same time, a lot of positive things happening. I think over time, as this industry matures, wraps will become fewer but still remain a force in the sign industry. But being the worrying guy that I am, I worry that if we aren’t careful, this niche market might burn out as fast as it arrived. We need to make sure that everyone knows that wraps are still a design oriented industry, and in my opinion, even more so then signs. If proper design techniques aren’t used, we may do harm to the reputation of what wraps truly are and can be.

What are your thoughts on the wrap industry? It’s a popular subject on these forums, and I’m interested to hear what you all think.

[Techman]

As with every thing,, Especially FADS.

IF the market remains in control and limits the out put.. Wraps will be around a long time. and remain effective as an attention getting device.

However, when the market gets saturated with wraps delivered at minimum wage at such a low cost any one cold have one by any yahoo with a printer then wraps will go the way of any other fad.

If the desperate drop prices much more soon too many will have a wrap. Even worse too many will have poorly laid out designs with craziness that permeates the vinyl quicky cheapy arena.

[Rick]

I grunted for a "automotive graphic design consultant" and a designer for wrap company 12 years ago. One thing I noticed is that very few were doing it because the cost was way out of reach for the majority of "regular" sign shops. I think at that time most wrap shops were established in design and install skills so on average, design "may" have been better. With the advancement in cheaper inkjet technologies it means anyone with 25k can make wraps compared to the 75-100k of 10-15 years ago. Another thing is the speed involved. I remember 10-20 minute saves or 8-10 hour spool times for a bus wrap. We can do it in 1/8 the time now. So every move you made back in the day had to be thought out a little bit.

What is nice about todays technology is that a "thinking" designer has more time to explore other design options.

Wrap design falls into the same realm as graphic design. If you don't follow some version of the design process, then you will fall back on Photoshop filter and clip-art solution design fluff. There is nothing wrong with filters and clip-art, but sad to say, I see this too much, content and clever design take a back seat to the shiny filter clip-art fluff... and now more fluffy designers have the cheaper technology to wrap a car with it.

Is there a place to go, to learn proper design and advertising techniques, before sign novice shop owners jump into the wrap industry?

Yes...

Are forums like this the best place to learn?

Depends on the persons ability to apply the information, but I think the process is a little too complicated to learn it by just reading a forum.

Are their classes on the design principals and effective wrap advertisement design?

I have seen some at sign shops but don't know if they are any good. i think it takes more than a weekend class or 2 hours at a show.

[Shovelhead]

Total fad niche.

[Rollie]

Total fad niche.

That's what they said about the home computer.
I think it's here to stay in some form or other.

Next thing is to add lighting to it (already in the works I hear)

[Shovelhead]

Computers: affordable, fairly necessary and has no alterntive
Wraps: expensive.....other alternatives

[Capital Signs]

Its actually done. I'm in the process of becoming a seller of their product.

http://www.lumamediainc.com/

[Shovelhead]

It's hard enough selling an expensive wrap. Now add illumination??!! :rolleyes:
I'm willing to bet that the cowboy at Fellers, in time, will wish he didn't
emphasis wraps as much as he does now.
We were doing bus wraps in '98 and thought, along with lenticular, was going to be the wave
of the future by now. The bus market died here soon after that.
What's that about "all your eggs in one basket"?

[kraigsnowden]

He's not out anything. He's the one that pushed it, and if it's such a common thing, I'd think he just makes more money, cause everyone will be buyin' more media. That's why they push, keeping your printer printing all day, cause that means you make money, which means they make money.

[OldPaint]

just take an overview of the VINYL PLOTTER history from 1984 till now.
thats 24 yrs........and its been so over done by all the wanabees..........its not the vehicle it was. lot of shops do only that and stay alive.
with the AVAILABILITY OF PRINTERS...all the wanabees jumped on the bandwagon...quicker faster easier way to make a lot of money fast!!!!!!
wellllllllll. now you got the problem of over saturation of a product, produced by people with no real talent, or business sence. just having the PRINTER and keepin it spittin out prints is all they wana do AT ANY PRICE....as long as they can make their RENT AND LEASE PAYMENTS!!!!!!
to easy for to many with nothing to give to the product for the market available!!!!!!!!!
i gto race car guys tellin me they can have their race cars WRAPPED FOR $500-700.00!!!!! i used to hand letter em.....and with no overhead..........get $150-$400!!!!!!
do i want to compete HELL NO.
ANNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDD.........THE downhill side of it WONT TAKE 20 YEARS.....as most can see now after less then 10 yrs.

[Joe Diaz]

Now this illuminated vinyl has me thinking even more (oh no! look out). I remember seeing this product a few years back. A big part of me sees such a cool and creative product and it gets my gears spinning. But a smaller part of me thinks, “we need to be careful here.”

A product like this just screams for PC government types to get involved. History has seen this happen to the sign industry before. Ask the old school sign makers what happened to the bill board sign industry before them. Our how about the effects of government’s involvement in the paints we use.

In my town, as of today, we have a lot of sign codes and restrictions in place… No illuminated signs downtown, only a certain square footage of store front can be used for advertisements and much more… but, no restrictions on vehicle advertisements. Which is a nice selling tool for us.

I think illuminated vehicle graphics could be consider by some a hazardous, moving road distraction. I feel like it’s only a matter of time before the government slams the hammer down on this idea, if they haven’t tried to already. This kind of worries me. Next, they will then start evaluating full wraps, then vehicle advertising in general. We should tread lightly in this territory. I think this is a wonderful idea with a lot of potential, but seeing how the government has acted towards our industry in the past, I wouldn’t be surprised if restrictions are put in place in the near future. Then some of us may have no choice but to watch the wrap industry wither and die.

[Ken]

For more hype on the topic check out:
www.wrapsmagazine.com
Cheers!
Ken

[jasonx]

I think if the industry allows prices to drop to low which allows sub standard work to get out then the effectiveness of wraps is diminished along with the markets willingness to use it.

I think it will always have its place as vehicle signage especially as inkjet technology has progressed.

[andy]

Wraps make a lot of money for printer manufacturers, ink suppliers, vinyl companies and specialist distributors.

I wonder how many people who spend big to "do" wraps have ever actually worked on a few before hand. I've done plenty or wrapping projects and it's not for me- it's a tedious, boring, time consuming process which I hate.

If earning a decent hourly rate is important to you I can think of easier ways to earn a living.

The theory and practice of wrapping only works if you have customers who understand and are willing to pay a realistic price- if not you are simply replacing cut vinyl with a more labour intensive alternative.

A classy wrap looks the business BUT it really is all about the money. Illuminated wraps- maybe allowed in the states but almost certainly won't be in Europe.

[trakers]

Man, thay be one of the most annoying websites I have ever visited in over 10 years.

The website (and the product it is pimping for that matter) ignites some sort of basal anger.

I'd be scared to death to have a vehicle with that stuff applied as I'd guess it would get keyed repeatedly.

I suppose it would be appropriate in Las Vegas though.



Its actually done. I'm in the process of becoming a seller of their product.

http://www.lumamediainc.com/

[Rollie]

Computers: affordable, fairly necessary and has no alterntive
Wraps: expensive.....other alternatives

Computers: used to be expensive and not that necessary.
Wraps: probably will get cheaper unfortunately.

[JD3]

I'm sure the wrap business could be lucrative to someone with the ability to create a well rounded advertising campaign -- as opposed to just a vinyl wrap.

I think a well designed, well striped van with a good logo would outsell a wrapped van any day. The problem is most people don't know how to properly execute a well rounded wrap that will attract an audience. I'd say that probably 10% of those creating wraps are creating effective wraps.

Everyone wants to throw terrible tacky clipart backgrounds on, and then layer and filter and blend and drop shadow out the butt. The problem is, when people create wraps in photoshop most of them don't know how to bring vectorized artwork into photoshop. They get lazy and use the Photoshop type tool, instead of going back to the fundamentals of their sign design software, exporting and importing designed text -- instead of basic text.

I think you could teach people how to use the tools to do a wrap, but a good eye is something that isn't learned. You either got it or you don't.

But, I'm from jersey. The trucks you see driving down the highway are all first class pieces that could (easily) be on any signcraft cover. The talent in this area is ridiculous, imo. So it's difficult for me to imagine some of these landscaping trucks rolling around with a photo of trees on the bed of it -- as opposed to hand painted scroll work and great airbrush fades.

But what do i know? lol.

[Merritt Graphics]

I ask this, because I wonder how lucrative this niche market really is. Do the people that do wraps more then once a week only live in more urban areas? And if so have you always been just a wrap company, or did your sign company evolve into just a wrap business?

Do you think the excitement over wraps is nothing more then a selling spree by suppliers to sell us sign artist thousands of dollars worth of wrap equipment, wrap classes and wrap materials? Or, are they simply responding to the demand for such products and services? Or is it a little of both?

Are wraps even a positive form of advertising? I personally think so, but it depends on if the wrap is content driven or not. It’s true that they are eye catching, but how long before the shock and freshness of the wrap scene wares off and they start to have equal or lesser impact then lower cost super graphics, or partial wraps? How long do you think it will be before customers realizes the low return of their investments in poorly designed, non content driven or poor contrasting wraps and start seeing all wraps in the same way?

Is there a place to go, to learn proper design and advertising techniques, before sign novice shop owners jump into the wrap industry? Are forums like this the best place to learn? Are their classes on the design principals and effective wrap advertisement design?

I prefer to think that the wrap industry is still in its infancy and there are a lot of mistakes… and at the same time, a lot of positive things happening. I think over time, as this industry matures, wraps will become fewer but still remain a force in the sign industry. But being the worrying guy that I am, I worry that if we aren’t careful, this niche market might burn out as fast as it arrived. We need to make sure that everyone knows that wraps are still a design oriented industry, and in my opinion, even more so then signs. If proper design techniques aren’t used, we may do harm to the reputation of what wraps truly are and can be.

What are your thoughts on the wrap industry? It’s a popular subject on these forums, and I’m interested to hear what you all think.


I hardly consider wraps are in its infancy. We have been doing them for 14 years now.

If anything it a over saturated industry with every shop that has a capable printer calling themselves experts.

It also by no means is a niche market but a robust profitable industry that accounts for more than half of our production.

It is also a very competitive market even for the one off wraps. So the margin will keep going down for the service provider both printers and eventually the installers.

We do not do any design so it is hard for me to comment on the integrity of a good design and its advertising effect for the end user.

[Checkers]

Hiya Joe,
I didn't read the other comments, but, I'll answer most of your questions - based on my experience.
First, I live and work in a metropolitan area and service a broad spectrum of clients, both retail and wholesale, that range in location from inner city to rural areas.

Also, I don't do many "wraps", and I still consider the business a sign company that offers a full range of advertising services, including wraps and graphic installations on all types of vehicles. Since I don't own a printer, I don't push wraps, but I'm happy to provide this service if the client requests it.

Most of the clients I deal with state that they're primarily interested in wraps or similar because it is a memorable form of advertising that allows them to showcase their products and/or services in a positive way.

The second most popular reason for requesting wraps is because of restrictive sign codes don't permit an adequate sign to identify their business. Since commercial vehicles aren't subject to sign ordinances, this is a good alternative to promote their business.

Finally, some understand the importance of advertising, marketing and promotion and realize that vehicle graphics and wraps are an excellent and affordable way to promote their business in their service area.

Are wraps a fad created by suppliers and manufacturers? No and Yes. I've been installing large format graphics since I got into this business in 1992. So, the demand has always been there. However, back then, few could afford it and there were fewer shops that could execute it. Now, since the barriers to entry are much lower, and there is a lot more competition between equipment and media manufacturers, there is a lot more "hype" created by the manufacturers, promoting their specific products or processes.

When properly executed and maintained, wraps are well received. But, since the cost of acquiring equipment has come down significantly, and many more are entering into the business, there is a lot more "trash" being generated by amateurs, which reflects poorly on the industry. It's unfortunate that, just like restaurants, the bad gets more publicity than the good.

While there is a lot of training available to learn wraps, I don't know of any company that offers the full spectrum of proper "A to Z" training. But, in an industry changing so quickly and with so many variables, I don't think anyone can develop an effective all "inclusive program". So, a combination of learning sources would be required to totally understand the business of "wraps". Also, I don't think one person can know and do it all – well and be profitable.

I think the wrap industry is just hitting puberty and just like growing up, there are going to be some awkward and embarrassing moments. As the industry matures, I think the ones that excel will be the businesses with a good balance of business skills, plus old and new school sign and graphic design talent.

Checkers

[cdiesel]

I don't believe wraps are a fad, but I do believe the wrap industry is going through some major changes. With the proliferation of equipment and materials, along with the popularity of wraps, the market is becoming flooded with unqualified "experts" offering sub-standard work (both design & install) for less money. Fellers, and many other wholesalers are in part to blame for this. One local company here had a "Start your own sign company" theme on their wrap. I sat and talked with the owners about that one, and asked them this:
Do you really want to have hundreds of inexperienced people fighting for the few crumbs that are out there, or do you want to help your core customers succeed? Sure, they might sell a few more printers, but they're hurting their established shops as the rest of us will have to compete with these new guys selling for pennies out of their garages.
It's been said a million times on here already. You can sell yourself on lots of different things. Price should not be one of them. Selling a well executed design, with a solid installation and customer service is what will keep this segment of the industry going.

[Joe Diaz]

I hardly consider wraps are in its infancy. We have been doing them for 14 years now.

If anything it a over saturated industry with every shop that has a capable printer calling themselves experts.

It also by no means is a niche market but a robust profitable industry that accounts for more than half of our production.

It is also a very competitive market even for the one off wraps. So the margin will keep going down for the service provider both printers and eventually the installers.

We do not do any design so it is hard for me to comment on the integrity of a good design and its advertising effect for the end user.

14 years, is still pretty young. And you may have been doing it for quite a while, But for the rest of use, not until recently have distributors been cramming wrap products, services, and the overall idea that every sign shop should be doing wraps down our throats. And, since only a small hand full of the sign industry really knows what they are doing when it comes to wraps, and there is a lot that our own shop still doesn’t know about wraps, I would say that yes the wrap industry is still in its infancy. Compared to other industries, really there isn’t as much information available, especially on the design end. Like I said very little government restrictions, if any at all are put in place for this industry. Yet another sign the wrap industry is still in its infancy.

And it’s debatable if it is a niche market or not. There are plenty of businesses that can operate solely off of what I consider a niche market, which really isn’t a bad thing. I also assume that these types of companies that can do so are in more developed urban markets. Niche market only means that it’s a service that isn’t being supplied by the mainstream industry. And the findings of this pole so far only further backs up my assumption that the wrap industry is a niche market. Not a lot of sign shops seem to be providing wrap related services as their sole source of income.

[Chiproller]

Ok, here goes...

I am one of the so-called "new guys" that people on this forum seem to stereotype and dismiss as providing wraps that are horrible in design and installation. While I am sure they are out there, I know that I personally am committed to providing a quality design and install for all of my future customers. I will not be doing it on the cheap and my goal is to provide a high level of thought and customer service for each and every design we create. So DO NOT underestimate or dismiss the guys like me out there who are just getting started, or do so at your own peril.

Anyone who thinks that vehicle wraps are a fad is CRAZY. As long as there are no restrictions to vehicle advertising, businesses will always look for ways to promote their services and differentiate their company. In my opinion, if you just have vinyl lettering on your truck, you might as well save your money because you are NOT being noticed by your customer. It does nothing for your image and is as memorable as an insurance seminar.

Ask yourself this, how many cars did you pass on the way into work today that had lettering on them to identify their company on them? Can you even remember one of them? Vinyl lettering is pointless and has ZERO impact on the customer. Now, I am only referring to lettering as opposed to a colorful logo made with vinyl including lettering that is unique, colorful and memorable. That adds SOME value maybe...

Now compare that to a well designed vehicle wrap that you may have been behind in traffic on your way to work. Can you recall the company? Did it at least give you something to do during the mindless commute to work today? My bet is it did, and the second time you notice it the brand will stick.

Chip

[doublesky]

I used to work at a shop that was 100% focused on wraps. The industry became so saturated in our area, that it was basically an insult when we were presented w/ quotes from other shops to match. People are seriously low-balling wraps now, killing the industry for the "little guy"... IMO

[Joe Diaz]

Chiproller, This post wasn’t really intended to pick on the new guys. At least that was not my goal. I simply wanted to gain a better understanding from new and seasoned sign makers alike, and their thoughts about the wrap industry. How can we make it better? Why do they not sell well in some areas? Why does it seem that they are so popular in this industry, yet the good majority of us sign shops out there do less then one a month? It really has little to do with whether you are new or not… unless you factor in the large group of new sign makers that haven’t been in business long enough to know that you can’t give this type of work a way just to make a sale. But really, I don’t want to turn this into another newbie vs veteran post. There is already a bunch of those on here.

Now as far as wraps vs. other large format vehicle graphics: The impact they make has little to do with whether or not you can get the material to comply around a mirror and a windshield wiper. Sure those are cool effects and can add to an overall eye catching product, But all of that means zilch if message isn’t getting across. There are a lot of super graphics and other non-wrap large format vehicle graphics that sell a brand name much better then wraps. But it all boils down to the design that was used. The point I’m trying to make is where do people go to learn that knowledge? Where do they go to learn that it isn’t about how many filters and effects you use, it’s about creating a clear, legible, and memorable impression. Is there any place at all? Are you just born with it? I mean you see wrap seminars and DVDs and all sorts of stuff that teaches you how to install a wrap, but not too much on proper design practices. So when suppliers sell you on this idea of a wonderful wrap market that is available to every one, They aren’t supplying you with every thing you need to make it happen, and they have no control over your market, in fact, they probably no less about your market then you do. I just think people should be aware of jumping into the wrap industry blindfolded with out first having an understanding of what is involved and more importantly how to properly help your clients by creating a good image.

[The Sign Dude]

I talk with Steve from luma media this morning and he said instead of having retailers they were going to set up locations in different areas and have certified installers that could sell and install but all the graphics would be generated through their facility and shipped out to you. He said the vehicle on their site (Focus?) would be about 6k to do.

[onesmf]

It is only a fad if you jump on the band wagon and start doing wraps because it is the latest craze. It stops being a fad when you produce top quality, a-one advertising for a customer. That is ultimately what delineates a sustainable business from "flash-in-the-pan", follow the craze operations. I helped my father fabricate signs when I was old enough to hold a paint brush. The technology has changed since then, but the basic ability to "design" and "create" has not. Every, all, each business needs a sign. Some have a larger budget than others. This ultimately separates the successfull, dedicated business person from all of the rest. Recognizing what suits a customer and creating an advertising medium which produces results gets the paycheck. Identifying a market, staying up on the latest trends and keeping pace with the "lowballers" is a tiny fraction of operating a successfull business. First and foremost, you must be good at what you do and stop worrying about what the corner cutters are doing. If you have done a wrap, you understand the time, effort and design process involved. Rest assured, Joe Blow undercutting all the other experts will eventually burn out because all of his hard work has been taken advantage of and he was never paid accordingly. Think business sense and talent before everything else. Those attributes are what will make you a success.

[Chiproller]

Chiproller, This post wasn’t really intended to pick on the new guys. At least that was not my goal. I simply wanted to gain a better understanding from new and seasoned sign makers alike, and their thoughts about the wrap industry. How can we make it better? Why do they not sell well in some areas? Why does it seem that they are so popular in this industry, yet the good majority of us sign shops out there do less then one a month? It really has little to do with whether you are new or not… unless you factor in the large group of new sign makers that haven’t been in business long enough to know that you can’t give this type of work a way just to make a sale. But really, I don’t want to turn this into another newbie vs veteran post. There is already a bunch of those on here.

Now as far as wraps vs. other large format vehicle graphics: The impact they make has little to do with whether or not you can get the material to comply around a mirror and a windshield wiper. Sure those are cool effects and can add to an overall eye catching product, But all of that means zilch if message isn’t getting across. There are a lot of super graphics and other non-wrap large format vehicle graphics that sell a brand name much better then wraps. But it all boils down to the design that was used. The point I’m trying to make is where do people go to learn that knowledge? Where do they go to learn that it isn’t about how many filters and effects you use, it’s about creating a clear, legible, and memorable impression. Is there any place at all? Are you just born with it? I mean you see wrap seminars and DVDs and all sorts of stuff that teaches you how to install a wrap, but not too much on proper design practices. So when suppliers sell you on this idea of a wonderful wrap market that is available to every one, They aren’t supplying you with every thing you need to make it happen, and they have no control over your market, in fact, they probably no less about your market then you do. I just think people should be aware of jumping into the wrap industry blindfolded with out first having an understanding of what is involved and more importantly how to properly help your clients by creating a good image.

Joe,

I was certainly not insulted by any remarks in your post as a newb or by any replies as well. As a contributing member to the forum, I thought that a post from the perspective of someone brand spanking new to vehicle wraps may be helpful.

Coming from 15 years of sales experience at a number of different companies selling services as diverse as Financial Advice to College Textbooks, everyone complains about price. It's no different in any industry! My 2 cents is to not fall into the trap of believing that there is no money to be made in wraps because "everybody is doing it now". That's ridiculous.

While there may be more competition out there, you have to set yourself apart. You must have some sort of unique selling proposition that sets you apart from the competition. In my case, I hope that our focus on Creative Visual Solutions will convince our customers that we can solve their problem.

Chip

[3dsignco]

I think it is more of FAD to sign companies then to the market. Everyone is thinking.. Wow no substrate so I can make more since I don't have to buy any dibond or MDO
The hacks will go away and another will fill their shoes.. I will always stick to my philosophy of Design, Design, Design, It will always win out over price. (Its work so far)
I do loose work to lower priced competitors but I keep the quality customers who want quality. (Don't get me wrong I have had my fair share of WHAT WAS I THINKING designs)

It will all balance out in the end.

I did my first wrap. (If thats what you want to call it) 13 years ago with a Gerber Edge.. Did it once never again. We market the wraps and in my area 90% of all our vehicles are a partial wrap. Usually Trailers, Box Trucks and Vans. I haven't done a car yet so I can speak to that.
We just keep our shop well diversified due to being in a small area. Right now we are slammed with more refresh work then new businesses and of course the real estate.

[OldPaint]

Ask yourself this, how many cars did you pass on the way into work today that had lettering on them to identify their company on them? Can you even remember one of them? Vinyl lettering is pointless and has ZERO impact on the customer. Now, I am only referring to lettering as opposed to a colorful logo made with vinyl including lettering that is unique, colorful and memorable. That adds SOME value maybe...

Now compare that to a well designed vehicle wrap that you may have been behind in traffic on your way to work. Can you recall the company? Did it at least give you something to do during the mindless commute to work today? My bet is it did, and the second time you notice it the brand will stick.
VINYL HAS NO IMPACT??? take that a step future and youre saying that HAND PAINTED SIGNS had no IMPACT?
now see how silly youre statement sounds?
the differance between a WELL DESIGNED sign with TEXT, doing all the work, HAS BEEN THE MAINSTAY OF THE REAL SIGN PAINTERS/MAKERS.
knowing how to be IMPACTFULL with text is where the TALENT and EXPERIANCE come to full usage.
MIKE STEVENS didnt do many signs with all the fluff.
DAN ANTONALLI, RICK SACHS, most all who ever swung a brush.....will tell you the same thing.
most products OF REGOGNITION.... have 1 or 2 WORDS
that set them apart.
NIKI, COKE, PEPSI,BUDWIESER, MILLER, SUNOCO, BP, AMACO, CITGO,WHEATIES, CHEETOS, DORITOS go to cars, mostly was a FONT that described the BRAND.
FORD, CHEVROLET, DODGE, how many tailgates have o seen these FONT/TEXT on?
and you remember them.
as for this wrap crap, and most of it is IF NOT PROPERLY EXCUCUTED... IS NON-READABLE WHEN IT IS MOVING...
just look at some of the NASCAR cars....READABLE AT 180 MPH. these are good, ive seen wraps, some sittin ...I STILL DONT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE!!!!!
the new people doin WRAPS, with no signage background, are the one who need to learn....not everybody is gona buy their over done stuff.
like i said before most wrapers should have this sign above their door...
IF I CANT DAZZLE YOU WITH MY BRILIANCE, THEN ILL BAFFLE YOU with added FLUFF!!!
the old saying..LESS IS MORE...does not apply here))))))))

[Checkers]

Hey Chip,
If you want to survive in this business, you're gonna have to grow thicker skin. You seem to be defending the newbie stereotype - even if it is there for a reason :)
For the record, there always were and always will be hacks in this industry. However, since the equipment and software that "does all the work" is more affordable than ever, the people that see and can do a very small part the business are getting into the business and calling themselves designers and sign makers.
Just because someone bought a cheap plotter on ebay, hacked some design software from RapidShare and can cut some stickers, it doesn't give them the right to call themselves professionals. Most have no knowledge on what to charge, how to run a business, or even know the difference between bad and good design.
Yes, there are exceptions to this stereotype, but they are few and far between. None-the-less, most of us who participate here are here to help those who are committed to learning.
I think the industry is too stubborn or independent to really improve itself. Once again stereotyping, the old-timers don't want to be bothered with the newbies, mainly because of my comments above. And the newbies don't want to take the time to properly learn the industry because it takes time and they are part of this instant, "I want it all, now" society.
As I said in my previous post, the sign industry in general is moving at such a rapid pace that it would be nearly impossible to develop and implement a good apprenticeship or training program that can keep pace with the industry changes. Learning the basics of good design can be developed in due time, but the art of implementing good design using modern technologies is nearly impossible. By time you’ve mastered the current technology, it’s already out of date. And yes, we are to blame for this. In our consumerism society, we feel we must have the latest and greatest just to survive. Look where this attitude and the SUV got us.


Sorry for hijacking your thread Joe.
To get back on track, here's one last thought/comment...

I feel that some companies do better than others because of the amount of time, knowledge and effort they put into what they're promoting. As I said in the past, what you are selling makes a world of difference. Are you selling graphics on your vehicle or vehicle advertising? If the company you're trying to sell already does any other type of advertising, they can be persuaded to purchase vehicle advertising. Remember, full page newspaper ads can cost thousands of dollars per day; billboards can cost thousands of dollars per month and phonebooks can cost thousands of dollars per year. However, at a the same or lower cost, none of them are as effective as a well executed marketing plan using vehicle wraps.


Checkers

[Merritt Graphics]

14 years, is still pretty young. And you may have been doing it for quite a while, But for the rest of use, not until recently have distributors been cramming wrap products, services, and the overall idea that every sign shop should be doing wraps down our throats. And, since only a small hand full of the sign industry really knows what they are doing when it comes to wraps, and there is a lot that our own shop still doesn’t know about wraps, I would say that yes the wrap industry is still in its infancy. Compared to other industries, really there isn’t as much information available, especially on the design end. Like I said very little government restrictions, if any at all are put in place for this industry. Yet another sign the wrap industry is still in its infancy.

And it’s debatable if it is a niche market or not. There are plenty of businesses that can operate solely off of what I consider a niche market, which really isn’t a bad thing. I also assume that these types of companies that can do so are in more developed urban markets. Niche market only means that it’s aservice that isn’t being supplied by the mainstream industry. And the findings of this pole so far only further backs up my assumption that the wrap industry is a niche market. Not a lot of sign shops seem to be providing wrap related services as their sole source of income.


I actually think that the wrap market has already peaked and like any other product it will be consolidated to the strongest players..

Plenty of the pie out there but not for everyone. Especially this late in the game (or infancy as you refer).

Again this is an opinion from a print provider and install firm that has no value added in design.

I am certain design services or a 1 stop shop is very valuable to a one off as value added and can fuel the fire. That is not fair for me to give an opinion.

I am just looking out our window.....

[coyote]

We don't do wraps, but speaking as a consumer-there's a lot of really bad design out there and the advertising message gets lost in the clutter. If I can't instantly get the message at 60mph-or even at 25 as I drive past a worksite or intersection, then what is the added value?

I suppose I'm old school, but a clean and graphic representation will get my attention and be memorable-with the full wraps that have TMI (too many images), all I see is the totality-I see it maybe as "art" but not as a message. Phone number? Location? Product?

I think the market will drive the industry, as it does everything else. An unsuccessful image will get replaced, and a poor designer will also.
Carol

[Rich]

We don't do wraps, but speaking as a consumer-there's a lot of really bad design out there and the advertising message gets lost in the clutter. If I can't instantly get the message at 60mph-or even at 25 as I drive past a worksite or intersection, then what is the added value?

I suppose I'm old school, but a clean and graphic representation will get my attention and be memorable-with the full wraps that have TMI (too many images), all I see is the totality-I see it maybe as "art" but not as a message. Phone number? Location? Product?

I think the market will drive the industry, as it does everything else. An unsuccessful image will get replaced, and a poor designer will also.
Carol

I guess I'm old school too, because I feel the same way you do!

[signmeup]

I'm old enough to remember the cargo van murals in the 70's. Wraps are pretty much the same to me....fad.

[Chiproller]

Wraps are only as much of a fad as vehicle graphics are. I don't see anyone deciding to stop advertising their company on their vehicles...ever. Some will have the budget for a full impact message about their company, some will not. Those that do will get a wrap! It's that simple. People are not going to stop getting wraps all of a sudden in 5 years. IMO wraps will still be on the road until some other technology takes it's place in the future.

Chip

[OldPaint]

Some will have the budget for a full impact message about their company, some will not. Those that do will get a wrap! It's that simple. People are not going to stop getting wraps all of a sudden in 5 years. IMO wraps will still be on the road until some other technology takes it's place in the future.

FULL IMPACT? you need to define that. i think youre saying that WITH WRAPS ITS FULL IMPACT?
then again you are WRONG!
the basic reason for SIGNAGE IS TO CONVEY YOURE MESSAGE TO THE MASSES.
NOW... as an old stock car painter.....truck painter, wall painter, i think we DID THAT WELL.
if youre saying its not a FULL IMPACT sign, UNLESS ITS GOT TONS OF COLORS,BACKGROUND IMAGES you need to rethink what youre doing.
ive lettered many VEHICLES that have FULL IMPACT...and got paid well it.
as for what wrpas will be 5 yrs from now, you might be wrong. also with the increased number of people tryin for the money they make by given it away cheaper...WILL INCREASE.
like i said before about $500-700 wraps on stock cars....after you take materials, time, and expense of machine......youre lookin at less profit then when i painted them for $200-400...AND THAT WAS ALL IN MY POCKET MONEY!!!!
this is an example of brush work for full impact.
you may not like it but the owner did and i got $1400 for it. cost of materials, was maybe $20!!!!

[Pat Whatley]

Ask yourself this, how many cars did you pass on the way into work today that had lettering on them to identify their company on them? Can you even remember one of them?
Chip

Yep, W & W Contractors...because somebody put "Contractors" on about 2" off center and crooked.




Now compare that to a well designed vehicle wrap that you may have been behind in traffic on your way to work. Can you recall the company?
Chip

Irrevelant to my area...there are NO well designed vehicle wraps. Just piles of crap stuck on vans for as low as $2000. There have actually been times I've stood in a parking lot staring at a van trying to figure out what in the hell they were selling...like the wheelchair company with cacti all over their van...or the carpet cleaning company wrap that they left the phone number off of and the guy wrote in on with a magic marker.

[Chiproller]

Some will have the budget for a full impact message about their company, some will not. Those that do will get a wrap! It's that simple. People are not going to stop getting wraps all of a sudden in 5 years. IMO wraps will still be on the road until some other technology takes it's place in the future.

FULL IMPACT? you need to define that. i think youre saying that WITH WRAPS ITS FULL IMPACT?
then again you are WRONG!
the basic reason for SIGNAGE IS TO CONVEY YOURE MESSAGE TO THE MASSES.
NOW... as an old stock car painter.....truck painter, wall painter, i think we DID THAT WELL.
if youre saying its not a FULL IMPACT sign, UNLESS ITS GOT TONS OF COLORS,BACKGROUND IMAGES you need to rethink what youre doing.
ive lettered many VEHICLES that have FULL IMPACT...and got paid well it.
as for what wrpas will be 5 yrs from now, you might be wrong. also with the increased number of people tryin for the money they make by given it away cheaper...WILL INCREASE.
like i said before about $500-700 wraps on stock cars....after you take materials, time, and expense of machine......youre lookin at less profit then when i painted them for $200-400...AND THAT WAS ALL IN MY POCKET MONEY!!!!
this is an example of brush work for full impact.
you may not like it but the owner did and i got $1400 for it. cost of materials, was maybe $20!!!!

Whatever floats your boat brother. But the point of this thread was do you think wraps are a fad? I do not. Clearly you took my statement about vinyl lettering on trucks being less impactful than a vehicle wrap and took it as an insult to your skills as a painter and what painting can accomplish? Geez....that's a bit of a stretch don't ya think? Chill out Oldpaint, and rant about the glory days in the Painters forum.

Your paint job, looks good and I think it accomplishes everything that an impactful message should. But the EXACT same thing can be accomplished now with a computer, Illustrator, and an inkjet printer in a partial or full wrap.

[Joe Diaz]

Whatever floats your boat brother. But the point of this thread was do you think wraps are a fad? I do not. Clearly you took my statement about vinyl lettering on trucks being less impactful than a vehicle wrap and took it as an insult to your skills as a painter and what painting can accomplish? Geez....that's a bit of a stretch don't ya think? Chill out Oldpaint, and rant about the glory days in the Painters forum.

Actually, The point of the thread was not whether or not you think it’s a fad, Several people including yourself chose to take the post in that direction. And really there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe we should have a discussion about that. But OP’s agenda to turn it into a paint vs print debate (which no offence OP, you do all the time.:wink:) is really not that different.

No, the point of the thread was to see how many people are actually doing wraps and to what extent. I kind of predicted we would see similar results, but this is only one forum, so it’s hard to say. To me, I see magazine articles, full magazines, and sign suppliers gearing up and focusing a lot on wraps, maybe too much so. Yet I also see, and the results of this poll also indicate that most sign shops aren’t doing a whole lot of wraps. It’s debatable but to me it kind of seems like the suppliers are trying to control the direction this industry goes. Possibly to sell certain products… I don’t know. I don’t think that should be the case I think the market demand for a product or service should control the direction of this industry. Now I could be wrong on all of this. And that is the point of this thread: To see where every one stands.

Do I personally think Wraps are a fad? Not really. They aren’t very popular in our area though. But, I still think they will be around for a while. One thing that concerns me though: is that most of them aren’t being executed properly and aren’t being sold at a high enough price, which makes it an undesirable niche to be involved with or to compete in. And I believe that for new sign makers or existing ones that don’t know much about this service, a post like this could be very helpful. They should know what to expect from peers in the industry rather then take the suppliers word for it.

[Checkers]

Hey Joe,
Suppliers are just that, they're trying to sell product. For the most part, they probably don't care what it is as long as they can make their profit on it.
On the other hand, I think the one part of our industry where the suppliers and manufacturers (mainly manufacturers) are attempting to manipulate us is with LED signs and lighting.
While LEDs may or can save some money, I don't they're as "good" and "plug and play" as were lead to believe. Also, from my limited experience with the consumer level LED's, I know they're not as reliable or as long-lasting the manufacturers claim.
A while back, I sent in some LED lighting for repairs and/or replacement only to have the manufacturer issue me a refund. So, even they're not willing to support the products they make. If this was a client's project, I would have flipped!

Checkers

[Joe Diaz]

And that…. Is the real point. Suppliers are really only doing their jobs. To them it’s more worth while to try to sell products that require you to buy even more products to use. They are looking to sell high dollar and high volume.

Their goal is to sell you a printer, a higher dollar product. But you can’t use the printer without ink, you can’t do wraps without wrap vinyl, you can’t protect that vinyl without laminate, you can’t render large images quickly without faster computers, you can’t design wraps without their fills. You can’t be certified without taking their courses. You can’t form the material to the curves of the vehicle without their torches. You need their cleaning supplies to prep the vehicle…

None of this is bad (with maybe the exceptions of the fills LOL). It creates jobs and furthers sign related technology, which allows us to do things we weren’t able to do 10 years ago. This is all good. The problem is when they make promises or sell a system that might not necessarily help all of their customers. Most of our company’s suppliers are pretty good about making sure a product will actually help us before trying to sell it to us. We are lucky. But other shops around the world might not be so lucky.

I see a lot of guys jumping into the wrap game, and it looks like they don’t have a clue what’s going on. Back to the design part of this debate: It seems like they have skipped very important steps, don’t apply even the most basic design rules and rely too heavily on the products software and fills that the suppliers are selling and not enough on what actually makes a wrap or any other advertisement valuable. And then on top of that they don’t have a grasp on how to charge for it. It’s not the suppliers and manufactures jobs to make sure that their customers know all the ins and outs of the business. But we need to know that you do.

[Rick]

I'm suprised at this poll, I figured there were more people doing wraps all the time or weekly. I think I would need more than 1 wrap a month to justify all the equipment and material stock.

[OldPaint]

Your paint job, looks good and I think it accomplishes everything that an impactful message should. But the EXACT same thing can be accomplished now with a computer, Illustrator, and an inkjet printer in a partial or full wrap.
AND YOU MISSED MY POINT, WHICH WAS...
this is an example of brush work for full impact.
you may not like it but the owner did and i got $1400 for it. cost of materials, was maybe $20!!!!
and the time frame for what i did, and a wrap of the same EXACT work, ARE ABOUT THE SAME.....
ANNNNNNNNNDDDDD... my material/equipment cost was
$20............so at a $1400 PRICE I GOT PAID, only $20 of it was ALL MINE TO KEEP!
its called profitablity.... ))))))))))))

[ProWraps™]

OP, im sorry but damn, you sure do know how to make a thread completely unreadable.

please make this man a PAINT ONLY forum so we can stop hearing horribly typed ))))))))))))))))) messages about the good ole days. jesus christ im tired of it.

as far as my opinion on this thread since i own a wrap company.. we are a young company. we are doing about 6 wraps this month. design is key. we waste more time getting it perfect than we probably should. but again we are young, and we refuse to put out crap. the one thing i didnt see mentioned here is that wraps are no different than any other sign project in the sense that client REALLY have the ability to screw up their own project. i dont want to hear all the "if your a good designer, you should be able to keep them from doing that" crap. im sorry, if they say put a PINK LINE over a GREEN PANEL PERIOD, sometimes you have to do what they want. this can create a terrible wrap. you win some and you lose some.

i dont think wraps are going anywhere. im in a large market. and i would say less than .000001% of vehicles are wrapped. and when you see one, it stands out like a sore thumb. the nature of the product, a mobile sign, is just too good and too effective for it to get phased out. but i am concerned about any laws that may be coming. the illuminated wrap thing, wont last. there is a law that says you cant have anything on your vehicle that is distracting or dangerous to other drivers. so time will tell.

[andy]

How does wrap pricing work then?

From the sounds of it to do wrap work properly you need to spend a small fortune on equipment, consumables and all the associated "bits and bobs"- software etc.

How can you create a good ROI when the market prices vary so much? Is it simply a case that some people are wrapping at a loss or do some people "get by" with inappropriate equipment and consumables?

For all the effort and expertise required for good wrapping work I'm a bit surprised that prices are as low as they are?!

[BobM]

Wow
As a "new guy" who has been watching what we do to vehicles for 40 odd years I want to paste A.C.E. stickers (The A.C.E principle, Gary Steele, Truck Lettering), on the 10% to 15% of the best lettering/graphic jobs I see on the highways.
1. A = Attracting attention, 2. C = Conveying information, 3. E = Enhancing vehicle appearance.
Back in the 70's I was on the spray gun side of a Centari/Spray-Lat/City Scape job on a Bookmobile for the Providence Public Library. 16 colors layed out on 12' X 32' sides and 12' X 8' front and back areas, it was something to behold. Designed in a contest by a Rhode Island School of Design student and executed by a 60 something year old brush guy, it took a month to complete. Eddie McLeod, (the sign painter) came in every afternoon and cut away the next areas to be painted, I sprayed them, and the next day we would tape and mask/spray-lath the area and cut out the next color.
Initally, it got a lot of attention, but after a short time it just faded into the background. Thinking back on "Eddie's" coments, it was more art than message media. So much of what I see is either GLITZ or NAME RANK & SERIAL NUMBER. Most of the wraps I see don't leave me with a memory of who I just saw or what they offer. Either they hurt your eyes with "bright" or are so cluttered it takes 5 minutes to sort it out.
If the warp business doesn't start adhearing to the fundimental principles of design, no amount of execution with modern technogly will make wraps or simple lettering jobs a success.
I have a lot to learn, I think I know what looks good (although I don't know why sometimes, but I'm learning), I haven't always achieved that goal of the A.C.E. Principle, but I'm working hard at it. Maybe wraps just scatter my brain cells, but I suspect very few achieve the buyers end. They just don't know it.