Flatbed Opinions Wanted

[klmiller611]

Hi Everybody!

I just recently joined and have been reading with great interest on the various equipment. Apologies in advance for the overlong post.

We are a trade show decorator and do a fair amount of display materials, signs and all for trade shows. Mostly gatorfoam, coroplast and portable display on tyvek. We had previously printed on an old HP 2500, which died in January. We are presently subbing all of our printing out.

My boss has wanted a flatbed for some time, so I began researching back in December and went to Sign Expo in Orlando. We decided on the Gerber Solara Ion and ordered one in mid April, it is scheduled to ship late October (at least the third ship date we've had). Since July, we have been getting concerned with the continued delays, and are coming into our busy season right now and are strongly considering changing to another machine.

The machines we are considering are the Mimaki JF-1630, the Agfa Anapurna-M, the Solara Ion or the Lexjet Legend.

I just got samples of our files on the Agfa and the Ion this morning on Tyvek, which is about 30-40 percent of our work. IMHO, the Agfa blows the Ion away in color saturation and image quality. The sample from Mimaki left a bit to be desired and the Legend looked good as well.

My boss is a super picky person and does not like the banding we have seen on some samples. But he likes the idea of the gantry system of printing which is mostly why we ordered the Ion to start with.

Does anyone out here have any of the printers we are looking at, and willing to offer some opinions?

Obviously, we are spending a fair amount of money here, and want to get the best deal for what we need, and quality we want. In our shop, speed is not the most important thing, we are generally not turning out the volume that most folks will. What we are looking at is image quality, price, ease of maintenance and reliability.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Ken

[ksc]

We are going with the ion we have owned other type grit roller UV flat bed printers the material has to be flat or the heads hit... Coroplast all most wont print at all we wast a lot of ink and materials (dibond is to slippery) Meteral won feed properly ((( (time) (just like dos to (windows) is behind the times so is the grit roller type uv printers) (please see my other posts under flat bed printers) Ion or similar type printers are best...if you look in to gerbers back ground thay are the most stable corporation around ,,, do yo know gerber invented the first vinyl ploter not to mention the large format printer.....

[jdigital]

We are selling our Zund 215+ UV printer, 6 color CMYKLcLM. Still a great machine .If anyone interested, PM me

[grfx_flem]

we have an ion running in our shop....well, sometimes running in our shop. be cautious, and have a lemon clause in your contract when you purchase one. when the machine works, it is ok. ink cost is high, much higher than they tell you....they forget to mention how much ink you waste cleaning the print heads. I would recommend going to a shop that has one, and ask the users how they feel about it.

[econolinesigns]

We have an Ion which has been up and running for about three weeks now. It was down for one and one-half days but Gerber sent a tech out from back east and had it running fine. So far we have not had to do anyting at anything other than 360 eight pass (which gets rid of most if not all of the banding).

grfx flem - you may want to have your distributors tech or a factory tech look at the vacuum pump used by the ink distribution system - ours came with a bad one from the factory and we found that in the beginning the ink use on the 40 hour cleaning was really high. Once the pump was replaced, this dropped to a pretty acceptable level. Three weeks, about $30-$40k in work on it and we have not had to replace any of the inks yet (although our cyan and yellow are getting low)

[AznSensation]

flatbed printers are so hard to take care of...

[Typestries]

flatbed printers are so hard to take care of...

They Are??????? Really?

[KR3signguy]

flatbed printers are so hard to take care of...



huh???
what type are you referring to?

[klmiller611]

Thanks for the commentary, we actually got samples from our files on the Ion, and they were terrible, so we cancelled our order on it, even though we were only 30 days or so from delivery. We went to SIGA and looked closely at the Mimaki JF 1630, Fuji Acuity and the Agfa Anapurna Mv. After a lot of careful consideration including price, we went with the Agfa. I hope it is going to be a wise investment. Wish me luck! Thanks.

[fozzyber]

What was the ballpark cost for one of these agfa bad boys?

[Graphix Plus Ink]

90K I believe

[fozzyber]

not bad, in the ball park of an ion, I hope to be able to be in the Flat bed market in 1-2 years, so I'm starting to keep an eye out, and make plans

[klmiller611]

Actually, the Mv model which comes with the varnish and CMYK, Lc and Lm came in at $115K.

[Egbert]

We also received samples from Gerber ION and they were so bad we allowed them to send another set. I performed a simple tape test on the 2nd samples and the ink came off in large patch just using low tack masking tape (the 3M blue tape). That ended our research on the ION.

[fozzyber]

I like the way the ION looks and is setup with the roll to roll, good size, low heat lamps OK price. BUT I was surprised at how slow it was. Now I'm hearing about the ink not sticking I don't think it is going to make the short list

[CarolinaCabinet]

Nobody even comes close to efi VUTEk when it comes to flatbed UV printing.... the problem is paying for it, but you get what you pay for.... they are obviously only for HIGH volume and HIGH expectation clientel, however. But they are amazing. I love it so much. You can do pretty much anything you can imagine.

[Merritt Graphics]

I would agree with the Vutek UV part. I just came back from a visit of the Vutek plant today and was blown away by what they got going on.

UV curable technology yes. Flatbed technology No. We own 2 Gandi Flatbeds and our loyal HP/Scitex Clients that have just purchased a Vutex UV roll to roll machine. Funny how things work in a technology driven industry.

Vutek has the best Hybrid flatbed but not the best bed only dedicated flatbed.

The HP/Scitex FB 6100(Nur Tempo) hands down is the best flatbed machine that exists. Unless of course you want to layout 1+ million to step into the new faltbed arena (No thanks).

For the Mid end machines I would by all means go with the Agfa(Dilli). Plus I think Kmiller your rep for Agfa is Steve Potthoff formally of HP/Scitex. He is a great guy to work with and knows the game and how to make you a serious return on your purchase. Trust me on that....

[petepaz]

we are going to the show in ac hunting for uv printers
haven't narrowed it down yet but i know we want white ink capabilities
i have heard a couple of stories as far as beds not being strong enough
for the materials and the feeder going off track

[jdigital]

IF its affordable, I would suggest Inca flatbeds. Great machines. Have you seen the Inca Onset? WOW. way out of my range awesome machine though

[ksc]

The ion printer is cool .........It does all that they say it will do...it uses more ink thin my old UV printer did But the work actually gets done....short learning curve....Prints on almost every Thing......self adjusting highth sensor for materials works flawlessly...

[scottg]

we went with the Anapurna-M a few months back, and are very pleased with the image quality. You will not regret your decision. It should do a very good job for you.

[SignManiac]

What not to buy:

http://www.ourhpdesignjet.com

[Digitall]

I would agree with the Vutek UV part. I just came back from a visit of the Vutek plant today and was blown away by what they got going on.

UV curable technology yes. Flatbed technology No. We own 2 Gandi Flatbeds and our loyal HP/Scitex Clients that have just purchased a Vutex UV roll to roll machine. Funny how things work in a technology driven industry.

Vutek has the best Hybrid flatbed but not the best bed only dedicated flatbed.

The HP/Scitex FB 6100(Nur Tempo) hands down is the best flatbed machine that exists. Unless of course you want to layout 1+ million to step into the new faltbed arena (No thanks).

For the Mid end machines I would by all means go with the Agfa(Dilli). Plus I think Kmiller your rep for Agfa is Steve Potthoff formally of HP/Scitex. He is a great guy to work with and knows the game and how to make you a serious return on your purchase. Trust me on that....


Thanks, your post was extremely helpful and timely

[niksagkram]

We recently purchased an Ion, in fact, the techs are here right now installing and training, and from what I've seen, this will be a great investment.

Any updates from people who have had one for a few months??

[akalvarez]

We are going with the ion we have owned other type grit roller UV flat bed printers the material has to be flat or the heads hit... Coroplast all most wont print at all we wast a lot of ink and materials (dibond is to slippery) Meteral won feed properly ((( (time) (just like dos to (windows) is behind the times so is the grit roller type uv printers) (please see my other posts under flat bed printers) Ion or similar type printers are best...if you look in to gerbers back ground thay are the most stable corporation around ,,, do yo know gerber invented the first vinyl ploter not to mention the large format printer.....

Please enlighten me what machine are you talking about? I thought the xerox 8954 cactus was the first large format printer?

[N Design]

We have a Colorspan 72uvx. Runs ok. Quality ok. Wouldn't hang anything printed on a flatbed in a museum. We mostly print coroplast and banners on it. Banding is an issue but we have accepted that you can't completed get rid of it. We do run into issues of large 1 color areas not printing correctly all the time. Might need to get a new pump.

[SignManiac]

I've learned a few things. You need to decide what type of work you need a flatbed for. The hybrids with grit wheels are okay for print for pay poster type work but not practical for commercial sign related work.

For sign shop type of work you want a true flatbed printer i.e. stationary material or belt drive. Price will determine print quality and speed. All flatbeds have their pros and cons. Figure out what you can afford to spend and decide what kind of printing you want to do first.

[Flame]

do yo know gerber invented the first vinyl ploter

Unless I am mistaken I believe it was Datagraph? Allen systems or something of the sort.

I know, way off topic. I had to chime in though. :P

[JS]

Does anyone have any experience with the HP 45000. I am looking at one and have not heard good things. Any help would be good.

Thanks

[Pat Whatley]

What not to buy:

http://www.ourhpdesignjet.com

Gee Bob, thats really interesting that the web address now forwards directly to the official HP website. :ROFLMAO:

[mmorse]

Have you gotten your Ion? If so how do you like it? Any problems?

[niksagkram]

Yes, we have it. There were a few initial problems, but they were easily fixed. The major one was the bed of the printer. It wasn't level with the roll to roll end of the machine, so when we tried to print a full 10 foot coro, we were getting head strikes. Gerber sent techs to install shims under the table itself, and that fixed the problem. Apparantly it's a common problem. ½" crezone can be a chore also. If it's not TOTALLY flat, don't bother trying to print. We had a few sheets that were only slightly bowed, but we still got rubs or head strikes. Taping down helps some, but it's still frustrating. Other than that, we love it. If you need more info, there is a Yahoo user group for the Ion.

Mark

[ScotJ]

We have a Colorspan 72uvx. Runs ok. Quality ok. Wouldn't hang anything printed on a flatbed in a museum. We mostly print coroplast and banners on it. Banding is an issue but we have accepted that you can't completed get rid of it. We do run into issues of large 1 color areas not printing correctly all the time. Might need to get a new pump.

I have a 72uvr and thought the same thing- until I saw the new Oce Arizona / Fujifilm Accuity. It rivals even my 1440dpi solvent machine. The quality is phenomenal and it does around 250~sq ft/hr in very presentable quality mode. It also has a roll-to-roll option which is nice. I'm thinking it will be our next purchase for sure, unless we get a used Inca Eagle 44 in the mean time.

[sharukh]

Hello all there, We bought a CUBE260 UV printer six months back, going really well, we print around 30 to 50 sq.mt daily, excellent quality, great and consistent results on almost all of the medias we have tried so far. Colour matching are no issues at all (Thanks to Caldera also).

[seaserpent]

These negative posters about the Gerber Ion must be doing something wrong. After owning one for only 3 weeks, it is a great machine. Prints to almost every substrate and sticks. Using strong 3M masking tape the ink does not pull up from the material except on SOME styrene and Diebond type, and polycarbonate materials. We've been experimenting with different Diebond type materials and there are those that stick fantastically. Coroplast (and other brands), painted aluminum, Alumacor, Alumilite, Painted MDO, expanded PVC all stick fantastically with any tape peel test. The samples I received from Gerber are stuck. Can't scratch with your fingers. Cannot peel with tape. I'm loving the Gerber Ion. The speed is acceptable and we print all day long - making money off this equipment.

[salyerb]

Quality, reliability, ease of use, diversity of applications, cost of operation, and yes "price" are all points to consider. A recent survey at the Drupa show in Europe (350 participants) showed that over 50% of the attendees there agreed that quality was thier most important determining factor in the next UV Curable Inkjet Printer they were going to purchase. The other catagories were price, adhesion, ease of use, and a few other catagories as I'm paraphrasing here to make the point that quality is far and above the leading factor. Another key element is service, servicability, and the expertise of the people servicing your printer. What kind of application support is available? How soon will someone respond to a service issue or concern? If I've had a digital roll to roll printer that prints exceptional quality that my customers are used to then how am I going to get them to accept a lesser quality? On the other hand, if my volumes are 3000 to 4000 square feet per month I can't justify a $300,000.00 printer. My advice is go for quality first, then look at your cost to performance ratio, and equally as important do business with a solid manufacturer (not OEM, not 3rd party) committed to the Display Graphics Industry.