How to open up the center of an O, or D etc.

[Decal_Designs]

Hello everyone,

I wonder if the VMP pros could let me know how to open up the center of a closed letter, like an O or a D or a P etc.

Here is my situation. While working on a white magnetic sign in VMP I had to import a logo. It is Black and my page background is white. Everything is going OK as far as I can tell, but accidentally I noticed that the centers of the closed letters are white and not an actual hole.

I noticed this by playing around and changing the page color to yellow just for kicks. How do I get the centers to be holes?

Below is a screen-shot which will explain it better.

[THATgirl]

did you weld?

[Fred Weiss]

Don't know about VMP but this is how you do it most everywhere else. All inside shapes should be the same color as the outside paths and then all of that color selected. Then combine/compound them to make centers into holes.

What combining does is to bind two or more vectors together and to instruct outside paths to fill inwards - not outwards, and inside paths to fill outward - not inwards. This then creates a fill area limited to everything that is within the vector paths.

[Rick]

I don't have VMP but did you try "Compound" or knock out, or subtract in a pathfinder menu?

[Decal_Designs]

Hmmm, so far I haven't welded, blacked out or compounded the logo yet, but I'll try those things now and see what happens. Thanks for the suggestions!

[Scott Reynolds]

All you have to do is compound the logo.

[Decal_Designs]

OK, I tried to weld the logo, and the center of the O completely filled in with black , so I had an O with no center.

I tried to select by color, and chose white. Then I moved the white off the page, but still ended up with letters with no centers.

I tried to find the Punch Out option which ended up being buried in the Manual Welding Module. While there, I selected the center of the O and click the punch out Icon, but that only left me with an O with no center again.

Then I noticed an Icon in the Welding Module that said change to a hole, so I selected the center and clicked change to a hole, but that didn't work either.

Any other ideas?

Thanks!

[Decal_Designs]

All you have to do is compound the logo.

I've looked up compound in the help files for VMP because I could find a compound command. VMP calls compound (combine). However combining the logo didn't work.

[Fred Weiss]

Here are the steps in Illustrator in order.

1. Select all black objects (vectors in this case).

2. Make them all the same fill color.

3. Combine/Compound them.

You are probably not assigning them all to be the same fill color.

[uneedasign]

check to see if your imported image is the same color that your software defaults to. For example if your software used lab colors, and the imported image is cmyk, that can sometimes cause trouble. Convert the imported image to the same color that you software uses.

[Scott Reynolds]

In Flexi, Combine and Compound are two different things.

[Fred Weiss]

Combine is a term that Corel uses. I think Xara uses "Join". Most other apps use "compound" for the routine under discussion.

Welding, cutouts and other path cutting terms can really get confusing. Flexi uses combine. Illustrator use Pathfinders with individual names like Trim and Merge. Gerber calls them Special Effects and calls welding "contour" which to most people means a discreet outline surrounding an object. Except Flexi has both a contour outline and a contour term used for a cut path in a print and cut setup.

It can make communicating difficult. I think we should form a committee to take all these folks out behind the barn and whup a little sense into them.

[Dave Drane]

Hi Decal, I'll tell you what I tried. I put the letter "B" on a yellow square. I then went to "curve edit and then "convert to curves", which gave me the desired effect that you have. Box off all the letter and go to weld module. You will see the blue outline of your "O" with a red centre. click on the outline and the whole shape will go black. Now touch the centre or by holding the control key if you have more than one centre and they will change. Now use the "hole" button and it should work. Hope 6that helps. :Coffee:

[Decal_Designs]

OK, I tried to follow Fred's suggestion, which I couldn't get to work at first. I colored the white centers layer the same as the black letters with no centers layer. Then I tried to combine them which didn't seem to work. I tried to punch them out which didn't seem to work and then I did something which may have been what Fred was actually telling me to do, and it worked, however I don't know what it was I did anymore! I tried so many things that I don't know how to repeat it.

:help:

Dave, thanks for the idea, but I think my problem was slightly different. This was a downloaded eps file that already had curves and nodes etc., but it had two layers of color, one white and one black. the black was all the letters, but without any centers. The white was just the centers.

[Fred Weiss]

It is also important to select all the vectors to be compounded and to assign them all the same color at the same time. It is altogether possible to have two different blacks assigned without realizing it. Also insure that all grouping has been ungrouped and that all existing compounding has been released before you apply the Compound command.

[Dave Drane]

Decal, can you post the eps. file so i can play with it. i am sure there is a simple answer.

[Fred Weiss]

Dave I inspected it. It was in good condition. The only problem was the letter centers were white instead of being black. Once they are made black and compounded to the outside of the letters the file is fine.

But just because I like you ... here it is. :tongue:

[Bobby H]

It might be worth noting that most of the brand marks posted on the Brands of the World website are treated in the same manner as that Host logo. Most don't have any compound paths, just simulated holes using different colored fills. Not all are like this, but most are.

[Dave Drane]

Dave I inspected it. It was in good condition. The only problem was the letter centers were white instead of being black. Once they are made black and compounded to the outside of the letters the file is fine.

But just because I like you ... here it is. :tongue:
Thanks Fred, but some things in VMP you just have to know what you are doing as it does not refer to compounds. I have worked it out for VMP users.
1. I removed the white square around the logo.
2. select the centre and make it the same color as the letter (black) and select the lot (letter & center)
3. Go to "weld" module and you will see it as a red outline with the hole as a blue outline.
4. Tap the blue outline and go to "Advanced application tools" and then turn into "Change to hole" and then accept. You will find this turns into a path etc.
Now lets all have a good strong drink. :thumb: :wine-smi:

[Scott Reynolds]

Wow! VMP sounds like a pain, in Flexi,

1. Select logo
2. Click compound

I have to do this to 90% of the logo's on BOTW.

[Dave Drane]

I use mostly Signlab and when I import most logos from BOTW there is hardly ever any problems at all.

[Fred Weiss]

Most of the files I've looked at from BOTW follow an approach of using white for centers to avoid compounding. Most of the files I've examined from there as well have been generated in CorelDRAW. Since Corel has had ongoing problems generating EPS and AI files that contain compounded shapes, this may be the reason for the white centers ... simply to avoid compounding.

This causes problems and confusion however when it gets to vinyl cutting. It would, for example be a rare situation where one would actually want to cut the black and then the white holes separately and overlay them on the black. You would instead want to cut the entire layer from black vinyl.

Compounding is something that is needed for printing and, in some applications, screen display. It is not needed for vinyl cutting. All that is needed is correct vinyl color assignment as shown in the screen shot from Gerber Omega attached. The only difference in the two examples is that the right hand example has had all white vinyl reassigned as black. There is no compounding or knockout or welding or anything else done to it.

[THUNDERflea]

OK, I know this is waaaaay late, but someone else might need this:

All you need to do is select the part you want to fix and hit combine curves in the curve edit section.

I figured that out from trying to do the same thing with multicolored eps or ai files.

[skyhigh]

mine is way late too... I missed this thread.
In flexi, if you select all the letters (centers and all) and change everything to black or whatever color, then go to cut. Visually on the screen, your centers will be filled in, but you will still have that cut line for the centers, so you can weed them out. You need not do anything else.

Other than that, if you really wanted to open up the centers, use the exclude common feature and that will knock out the centers. Maybe this is what Fred is saying also, only in different terminology. Fred knows all them big words and many more programs. I only know flexi.

[iSign]

I think the problem was obvious... they were taking Fred's signature too literally. I think sometimes you need to take your eye OFF the doughnut.

[Fred Weiss]

http://www.allcompu.com/myicons/book_worm_closeup_blink_sm_wht.gif Was I being obtuse again?

For those who don't know any better, Flexi has a better solution than just compounding objects. It is the Path Direction command. It is located in the Arrange menu.

To use it, just select whatever you want and execute Arrange > Path Direction > Automatic.

This will then combine all objects that have shapes within shapes that are also the same color ... while not altering those objects that do not meet that description. The benefit is that compounded objects will not become big blocks of multiple objects and act like grouped objects.

[iSign]

thanks fred, thats a good tip. I hate having to "compound" several letters seperately just to maintain the freedom to move them seperately. I've needed to revise line spacing or even kerning on imported "text" blocks that are already converted to outlines & if they need compounding (or combining) it has created just the problem Fred's tip prevents.

I have a small tip while we're on this old topic. Many times Illustrator fails to produce the desired result when using the object pull-down menu to choose "compound path>make" ... but whenever it fails, I use the "exclude" icon in the "pathfinder" pallette & this will always save the day for me. I have never figured what specific issues require this method, but when the other fails, I rely on this.

[Bobby H]

Most of the files I've looked at from BOTW follow an approach of using white for centers to avoid compounding. Most of the files I've examined from there as well have been generated in CorelDRAW. Since Corel has had ongoing problems generating EPS and AI files that contain compounded shapes, this may be the reason for the white centers ... simply to avoid compounding.


I meant to reply about this a few months ago.

While Corel does have it own bugs, I don't think it does a bad job exporting logos in EPS. I generally prefer its EPS output compared to AI export. The program only tends to run into trouble when trying to export Corel-dependent effects to other formats (powerclips, certain gradient fills, transparancy "lens" effects, etc.). But then that is a problem that exists for ALL drawing applications. That's one of the reasons why Illustrator added that "flatten transparancy" command. It makes things much easier when you need to export art to another application.

But using IllustratorCS2, it's just as easy for me to open the native CorelDRAW file as is within Illustrator.

Anyway, regarding the Brands of the World artwork, I don't think it has anything to do with CorelDRAW bugs. I think they're just storing EPS files in as compatible a format as possible. The earliest versions of Illustrator didn't support compound paths. Such objects had to be simulated, either by slicing the objects or filling the counters with different colors (which is typically the case for BOTW artwork).

---somewhat off topic BOTW rant below---

Overall, I consider Brands of the World artwork to be more of a liability than a service. I feel like I'm the only one leveling the criticism, but their logos often stink. Many are poor quality recreations and not authentic artwork. You can use such logos as placeholders in a fast comp but little else.

Here's where the liability comes into play. Months or years down the road you may need the same brand mark again. You do a hard drive search and that file comes up. There's a chance you might have forgot the artwork was not authentic. Or worse, someone else in the studio could pull it up and use it without knowing the art is compromised.

If I'm in a time crunch and need a logo from a major corporation immediately, I'll visit their website and scour for PDFs that may contain vector versions of their logos -such as an annual report or online brochure. Pull it up in Illustrator and everything is set.

[Fred Weiss]

I can't agree on Corel doing a satisfactory job of exporting the AI format. It loves to break any combined vectors into segmented paths as shown in the following example and which is then a problem for vinyl cutting:

[Bobby H]

Fred, that's a real easy problem to fix.

When CorelDRAW exports artwork in AI format it defaults to simulating combined objects by slicing them. This default sticks regardless of what version you choose to export, even though this is only done for compatibility with the earliest versions of Illustrator (which next to nobody uses anymore unless they have a museum piece 1980's Mac that still works).

Be sure to uncheck the box "simluate complex curves". Any exports to AI format after that should feature the box unchecked.

Still, with version CS2 of Illustrator, I seem to prefer its ability to open CorelDRAW 9 files rather than use Corel to export to Illustrator format.

[Fred Weiss]

Thanx Bobby ... I was not aware that was the cause of the problem.

[skyhigh]

Thanks Fred for the tip on the "Path direction command" that is an easy solution.

As far as compounding letters seperately to maintain their "independence" as doug mentioned, (that could be extremely time consuming) I would have compounded the whole, then converted to outlines. If doug hadn't mentioned the problem with items being "welded" together, I probably would have continued doing it my way.

Your path direction tip is the ultimate best way to do it, and one I didn't know.

thank you.