DMCA Notice Received from Aurora Graphics

[Fred Weiss]

We have received a DMCA Take Down demand from Aurora Graphics today with which we have complied. It seems that a member here in good standing had placed a classified ad to sell his legally licensed versions of three Aurora Graphics products.

For anyone not aware, DMCA stands for:

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law that implements two 1996 treaties of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services intended to circumvent measures (commonly known as Digital Rights Management or DRM) that control access to copyrighted works and it also criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is actual infringement of copyright itself. In addition, the DMCA heightens the penalties for copyright infringement on the Internet.

What does this mean to you?

For openers, Signs 101 will no longer permit advertising of any software product for sale from Aurora Graphics.

Secondly, and I will point out for the record that my company is a direct competitor of Aurora Graphics and that my comments reflect, in part, that relationship, anyone considering the purchase of a licensed product from Aurora Graphics should take fair warning that the EULA (End User License Agreement) provided by Aurora Graphics specifically prohibits any right on the part of the licensee to sell and transfer his or her rights in the license.

In short, if you invest in software from Aurora Graphics, that investment is final and you are prohibited from recovering any part of that investment should your plans or needs change.

It is absolutely the right of Aurora Graphics to offer their products under any terms they choose. As a competitor and as an admin here at Signs 101, however, I believe that Aurora Graphics has not made these prohibitions clear in their advertising or their presentation of their products. Further, their licensing restrictions are at variance with the overwhelming number of licenses offered by publishers of graphics software which do provide for the orderly and legal transfer of a licensee's rights to any other party. My Plotter Art™ collections allow such transfers. So do the Vector Art brand collections. So do all Adobe and Corel products, Gerber products, SAi products, and most others.

Finally, I would point out to anyone considering the purchase of a license from Aurora Graphics for any of their products that the license that covers these products is not available at their website and is not prominently displayed or available at any of their dealers and only is available to you after you have purchased a license and received the product. Because the license includes provisions which are both unexpected by most licensees and is out of step with industry norms, it is inherently deceptive. Prospective licensees are well advised to consider this before purchasing any Aurora Graphics licensed product from any Aurora Graphics dealer.

[zmatalucci]

their stuff sucks anyway!
I'd assume burn the disks rather than passing this trash on

[Mason]

A good computer and Photoshop Skills will give you anything Aurora can offer at the cost of time only.

[Shovelhead]

So basically if someone has Aurora products they can't resell?
That's lame, and so are the products.

[houseofgrafix]

That is super dumb.. If I was that person I would just give it away

[Sign_Boy]

That is super dumb.. If I was that person I would just give it away

And accept a donation for X$ for the banana that comes with the package:toasting::ROFLMAO:
But I don't even think they could give it away.

[houseofgrafix]

And accept a donation for X$ for the banana that comes with the package:toasting::ROFLMAO:
But I don't even think they could give it away.

ahhaha good idea!

For sale Brown Box..
if you buy today A free Aurora Graphics DVD

[houseofgrafix]

I think this may be more dumb then having to attach photos on this site!!

haahh jk fred.. Dont ban me!

[Sign_Boy]

ahhaha good idea!

For sale Brown Box..
if you buy today A free Aurora Graphics DVD

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

[Mainframe]

How stupid can Aurora be? Nit picking sign people on a sign forum and the best forum at that. I could have possibly been their customer, but not a chance after that, who needs them, thanks for the heads up!

[Flame]

We have the same policy. Reason being... people buy a disc, copy the files, and then sell it. Another person buys it, does the same, and sells it.... and on and on and on it goes.

[Shovelhead]

I saw a photo of the original disks.

[Joe Diaz]

We have the same policy. Reason being... people buy a disc, copy the files, and then sell it. Another person buys it, does the same, and sells it.... and on and on and on it goes.

I don't think that is the problem. I think the problem would be not being upfront about that policy before the purchase. Correct me if i'm wrong Fred.

[Day Sign Co]

It's a tough (http:////www.entertonement.com/clips/64257/The-Nerdator-On-Nerds) job but someone has to do it

[Flame]

I don't think that is the problem. I think the problem would be not being upfront about that policy before the purchase. Correct me if i'm wrong Fred.


Now that I WOULD agree is a problem. I believe you have to be upfront with people.

[Fred Weiss]

We have the same policy. Reason being... people buy a disc, copy the files, and then sell it. Another person buys it, does the same, and sells it.... and on and on and on it goes.

Which is why Vector Art, Plotter Art and many other art products are tied to a printed book. Without the book the files are a lot harder to use. You should ask yourself if you consider your licensees to be your valued clients or suspected criminals.

Allowing transfers under acceptable conditions to both you and your licensees is a great selling point. Prohibiting them reflects an attitude of guilty until proven innocent that would prevent me from being your customer.

[Fred Weiss]

I don't think that is the problem. I think the problem would be not being upfront about that policy before the purchase. Correct me if i'm wrong Fred.

Yes that's the main problem Joe but to be honest ... what do you think would happen to them in the marketplace if they were upfront with their policy?

[Fred Weiss]

http://www.allcompu.com/myicons/donderwolk.gif


I think this may be more dumb then having to attach photos on this site!!

haahh jk fred.. Dont ban me!

[Flame]

Which is why Vector Art, Plotter Art and many other art products are tied to a printed book. Without the book the files are a lot harder to use. You should ask yourself if you consider your licensees to be your valued clients or suspected criminals.

Allowing transfers under acceptable conditions to both you and your licensees is a great selling point. Prohibiting them reflects an attitude of guilty until proven innocent that would prevent me from being your customer.


I trust one person... myself. Even then I have my doubts sometimes. After being ripped off by everybody from friends to close family members, I trust no one...

Not saying I have no trust in people, I just don't have enough to trust someone to be honest while handling a $800 disc they could easily find a way to make a profit off of.

[Fred Weiss]

I trust one person... myself. Even then I have my doubts sometimes. After being ripped off by everybody from friends to close family members, I trust no one...

Not saying I have no trust in people, I just don't have enough to trust someone to be honest while handling a $800 disc they could easily find a way to make a profit off of.

All you have to do is setup acceptable terms for transfer of license and then take adequate steps to protect your work. Prohibiting transfers does nothing to reduce piracy.

[Joe Diaz]

Yes that's the main problem Joe but to be honest ... what do you think would happen to them in the marketplace if they were upfront with their policy?
Personally... as a buyer... I have no problem with that policy. I probably wouldn't buy from Aurora anyway, which doesn't have anything to do with their terms or policy. Because, when I buy art, I don't intend to pass it along. But... That's just me... I know that is not how others are, so I would imagine if made public, (which we are doing now:wink:) that policy would potentially hurt their sales.

I've never understood why some company/artist have stuck to the disc only methods of selling art anyway. I think the individual download is the way to go.

[Pat Whatley]

Prohibiting transfers does nothing to reduce piracy.

No kidding. To me that would just increase the amount of pirated art.

Fred, out of curiousity, I was wondering if you knew of a case where someone had actually been prosecuted for doing that with a graphics package. I'm just having a really hard time believing it would EULA would hold up in court if you are transferring the originals you legally purchased. It would seem to me that if they won't let you sell them they would have to be required to buy them back from you.

[Replicator]

Personally I think it's BUNK !

If I buy something, then I own it, and I'll do whatever the hell I want with it, and if someone doesn't like that then TOUGH CRAP !

I will never buy an Aurora Graphics Product . . . EVER ! ! !

and now back to your regularly scheduled company bashing . . . !

[Pat Whatley]

If I buy something, then I own it, and I'll do whatever the hell I want with it, and if someone doesn't like that then TOUGH CRAP !

I will never buy an Aurora Graphics Product . . . EVER ! ! !

and now back to your regularly scheduled company bashing . . . !

Wait...now that you put it that way it sounds like the same thing our customers say about using their sign artwork for a logo.

[Flame]

Wait...now that you put it that way it sounds like the same thing our customers say about using their sign artwork for a logo.



EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Awesome way to put it Pat.

[Replicator]

Wait...now that you put it that way it sounds like the same thing our customers say about using their sign artwork for a logo.

If they bought the artwork and not just the sign, then that's their right . . . but if they didn't buy the artwork, then they're screwed !

[Flame]

If they bought the artwork and not just the sign, then that's their right . . . but if they didn't buy the artwork, then they're screwed !

Check out istock Replicator, they have 2 kinds of licenses... just as one example.

You are basically paying for the right to USE their artwork, not own it. You do not actually OWN their artwork, you are simply being allowed to use it.

[johnnysigns]

what's the big loss?

[Fred Weiss]

No kidding. To me that would just increase the amount of pirated art.

Fred, out of curiousity, I was wondering if you knew of a case where someone had actually been prosecuted for doing that with a graphics package. I'm just having a really hard time believing it would EULA would hold up in court if you are transferring the originals you legally purchased. It would seem to me that if they won't let you sell them they would have to be required to buy them back from you.

The EULA is a contract like any other and will definitely hold up in court if someone is determined to pay the expense of pursuing it. I can't name any cases but most amount to complying with a cease and desist demand.

[Fred Weiss]

I've never understood why some company/artist have stuck to the disc only methods of selling art anyway. I think the individual download is the way to go.

The reality of widespread piracy and illegal duplicates dictates that only a fool would master a CD or DVD and put all his work in a ready to reproduce form for any one willing to pay for one. Downloading of individual images reduces both the expense of delivery and ones exposure to major loss through piracy.

It's pretty much the only way we will be publishing in the future.

[Fred Weiss]

Wait...now that you put it that way it sounds like the same thing our customers say about using their sign artwork for a logo.

I am constantly amazed at the separation many artists make mentally between protecting their own artwork and not protecting that of others.

[Gallant Reflex]

pfft

[Techman]

I think aurora abused the DMCA in this case. Yes, none of us wants to get into a contest over something like this. However, there is fair use exemptions that could apply. I am no legal authority but it could be something to know.

Case in point. The DMCA was used against an Ebayer who sold music cd's. He was constantly attacked by the music industry and Ebay removed his posts several times. In the end he won his case and got a nice check. The ruling said resellers could do whatever they wanted with the cd content since it was legally purchased. Even though the labels and licenses said not for resale. They ruled the DMCA does not apply to the "resale" of copy righted content no matter what the label or license said..

Plus...
If I remember right..

Shrink wrap licenses are illegal in some states. Shrink wrap means you automatically accept the license terms when you break the wrapper. But, you cannot read the license until you break the shrink wrap makes it non bindable.

On another point. There is a way to slow down the passing along of cd's full of content.
I did it with my dvd I sold a few years ago. It was made so that any unauthorized copy would shut off ofter a certain period. I know it worked because I got a couple calls on those trying to replace them.

[iSign]

that's it... I'm pissed too, this company's schitt ain't welcome in my toolbox anymore either... F-um... I'm seriously going the brown box route too. Since they've already gave Fred grief, I'm not going to post about my complete DVD here, with their entire 6 CD library that will go for free with the sale of the brown box... but I'll be dammed if I hold onto that crap anymore...

...in all honesty, it's paid for itself a few times over already, & I even used it last week for the woodgrain in my yellow page ad... but screw 'em... I'm going to find some place to sell an f'n brown box for $425 just to dump that DVD as fast as I can move it out of my collection.

I would've got a lot more use out of it too... but not now. Them self centered losers can rot in hell with their deceptive policies. Anyone with a good idea where, outside of signs101, that I can dump this brown box with a free butload of aurora crap... PM me. I'm through with Aurora!

[B Snyder]

Shrink wrap licenses are illegal in some states. Shrink wrap means you automatically accept the license terms when you break the wrapper. But, you cannot read the license until you break the shrink wrap makes it non bindable.



With regards to Aurora, the interesting part about Klocek v. Gateway, Inc. (http://www.internetlibrary.com/cases/lib_case209.cfm) is that the decision specifically pertains to Kansas law, where Aurora Graphics is located.

Want more?
Google (http://www.google.com/search?q=Klocek+v.+Gateway)



.

[Deaton Design]

I agree that they should have let it be known that from the start. Thats withholding info that would make a big difference. But I can see their point about reselling the cds. Anyone can buy the disc, put it on their hard drive or copy it, make a copy of the book or booklet, and sell it again. If that person has integrity and removes the files from thier computer, etc. then its no problem. They are trying to protect their product and sales, albeit in a wrong fashion, but I understand their point. Piracy is rampant.

[iSign]

I agree that they should have let it be known that from the start. Thats withholding info that would make a big difference. But I can see their point about reselling the cds. Anyone can buy the disc, put it on their hard drive or copy it, make a copy of the book or booklet, and sell it again. If that person has integrity and removes the files from thier computer, etc. then its no problem. They are trying to protect their product and sales, albeit in a wrong fashion, but I understand their point. Piracy is rampant.
Good points John, & one's that I agree with completely, in the sense that piracy is wrong, and distributors of valuable commodities have a right to try to protect them. And of course, I also agree that their chosen method should be above board.

The problem I have with it is pretty much what Fred said, but deserves to be said again. Because I bought an Aurora collection, for several hundred dollars, and I've used like 2% of the files... I might wish to sell it off some day, at which time I certainly wouldn't keep copies. If I wanted copies, I'd just keep the originals and not sell anything... and I honestly think I represent the majority of their consumers. Of course there are pirates who don't mind selling copies... but does anyone really think those people will stop pirating because of the license agreement? The prohibition against transferring ownership only punishes the honest folks. I don't mind the fact that I have paid about $15,000.00 for all the software I own. and I probably won't bother trying to sell any of it ever... EXCEPT this Aurora crap now, because I resent their policies & wish to boycott them now!

[Fred Weiss]

I agree that they should have let it be known that from the start. Thats withholding info that would make a big difference. But I can see their point about reselling the cds. Anyone can buy the disc, put it on their hard drive or copy it, make a copy of the book or booklet, and sell it again. If that person has integrity and removes the files from thier computer, etc. then its no problem. They are trying to protect their product and sales, albeit in a wrong fashion, but I understand their point. Piracy is rampant.

As a former authorized reseller for Aurora Graphics software, I can offer some insight into this which may have an effect on your position.

Aurora Graphics products such as Print Craft Suite, Monster Wrap Fills, Print Craft, Print Craft 2, Millennium Gold, Platinum, Sign Blanks, Raven, 3D Metal Machine and others do not include any printed documentation which display the contents of the collection or provide instructions for use. Until recently, none of these collections included a PDF user guide ... although my understanding is that PDFs are now available. The EULA was contained in a read me file on each CD or DVD ... which has now been replaced by a printed EULA on the outside of the packaging.

So for a number of years, Aurora's software was sold with no mention of the license restrictions unless you actually opened the packaging and inserted the CD into your drive and opened the read me file containing the license. In addition, Aurora took no steps to create a file naming scheme which would require a user guide to efficiently use their data. They just lumped their files onto a CD/DVD with no effort to display, instruct or protect.

By comparison, when you license any Plotter Art™, OCA, Smart Designs or Vector Art collection, you receive the data on a media disk(s) along with a printed user guide and gallery. The media disk(s) are in sealed containers or envelopes and the licensee is directed by labels to the fact that the data is covered by a license and that breaking the seal on the media is legal acceptance of the license. The user guide contains the EULA and other terms such as warranties and clearly states to the licensee that if they do not agree to the license to return the product to their selling dealer for a full refund.

What is important here is that the licensee is given the opportunity to read the license, warranty and other terms and conditions as well as preview the contents of the media disk(s) without having to break any seal or access the data on the media disk(s).

The files on the media disk(s) follow a naming strategy which is tied to the user guide display of the images. On their own they are just letters and numbers which provide no clue to what the file is unless you first look it up in the user guide. While far from perfect, this approach helps considerably in preventing or reducing illegal duplication and redistribution of the data.

Aurora Graphics decided early on that they did not want to provide a user guide or follow any of the above described approaches to protect their products. That may have been a measure to save on the cost of production or it may have been for more insidious reasons. That choice and the lack of a fair presentation of their license has left them wide open to misunderstandings on the part of licensees, widespread instances of keep a copy and sell the originals activity and outright piracy.

Now Aurora Graphics seeks to invoke the DMCA and force any third party such as Signs 101 to enforce their obscure EULA for them and prevent their customers from exercising what they believed to be their right ... to transfer their rights to a new licensee.

Signs 101 has a zero tolerance policy against software piracy and other issues of copyright infringement. We recently banned a merchant member for selling duplicated copies of Aurora Graphics products and refunded his subscription fee. We had no reluctance to do that because it is clearly the right thing to do.

Serving as a policeman, however, to protect the rights of a publisher who has not taken appropriate steps to protect himself or be upfront and fair with his customers is a whole other matter. The restriction on transfer in their EULA punishes the many honest buyers of their products while doing little to prevent piracy.

[Bigdawg]

It's the assumption with a EULA like they have that all their customers are crooks. Insulting to say the least. Do they not realize if I was a crook I wouldn't give a two shakes about their licensing????

Will not ever purchase their products and I'll make damn sure anyone I know considering buying them knows what they can expect.

[sarge]

i am a big advocate to protecting against crooks and piracy .. it has been discused on this forum a couple times that i know .. lots of different views about art and software .. there was a big deal made about making copies of dongles .. if you understand the premis of dongles you understand why the software engineer develope them .. that software was someones art and they dont want it priated .. if you dont like the rules then dont use the stuff .. but, i am with fred about hiding the rules .. that is wrong . however, what is just as wrong is selling that stuff and knowing it is misleading .. sounds like a used car saleman .. or a big fat scam

[synergy_jim]

I called BS the first time I saw the aurora catalog....

Anyone that buys eye candy and generates a bunch of textures and garbage and sells them on CD for more that eye candy costs in the first place is an idiot.

Aurora only makes money on people that are " new " to the digital print game and have no idea to use photoshop.

I'll bet I could make an exact clone of the monster wrap fills cd in about 3 hours....

[Fred Weiss]

I called BS the first time I saw the aurora catalog....

Anyone that buys eye candy and generates a bunch of textures and garbage and sells them on CD for more that eye candy costs in the first place is an idiot.

Aurora only makes money on people that are " new " to the digital print game and have no idea to use photoshop.

I'll bet I could make an exact clone of the monster wrap fills cd in about 3 hours....

In fairness ... what you are saying simply isn't so. It's the kind of a statement we hear occasionally from a prospective customer who has never been through the process of creating a seamless tile. I can tell you from direct experience in having created more than 2000 seamless tiles and rendered them that what you claim is highly exaggerated and verging on the impossible.

Most tiles are created manually or by using the various applications available to generate them such as Genetica, Filter Forge, ImageSynth and others. Alien Skin's special effects filters, for the most part, do not generate seamless tiles; those that do are inferior by comparison to those generated by the applications I've listed; and the rendering times for the typical tiles at the sizes rendered by both Aurora and my company average between 30 to 60 minutes per tile on an Intel QuadCore computer. The sizes we render are often sufficient to totally choke and freeze most Alien Skin filters. And as with other things, with seamless tiles ... size does matter.

That doesn't count the time to create and setup each rendering or to design the filter that controls the rendering.

You might be a total wizard with Photoshop but to duplicate the quality of what is provided in Aurora's Monster Wrap Fills or my Plotter Art™ Seamless Texture Tile Collections would have you averaging at least one hour per rendering and probably a lot more.

[Rodi]

We have the same policy. Reason being... people buy a disc, copy the files, and then sell it. Another person buys it, does the same, and sells it.... and on and on and on it goes.
Known for years by software companies, so they jack the price up making the good guy who wants the legit version to pay for the pirates, it is stupid.

[Rodi]

You ever check out font EULAs? Your breaking the law by receiving them from clients, most likely, okay, so they send you a PDF, oh, not on all. You embed a font in a .pdf back, oh, broke the EULA.

EULAS are an insane way of restricting a customer. It is not fair use, by almost any means. Think about this, if I buy and sell and it is extemely popular, the company loses money, right? Not necessarily, because the next product is introduced or an upgrade and all these people want it, and many now need it ASAP, who wins?

[Techman]

Now Aurora Graphics seeks to invoke the DMCA and force any third party such as Signs 101 to enforce their obscure EULA for them and prevent their customers from exercising what they believed to be their right ... to transfer their rights to a new licensee.

My opinion is that this is just more abuse by some company using the threat of the DMCA as a club. Although I am no legal eagle, I would be willing to bet that this case is a classic example of why the DMCA is under heavy attack. This case is way beyond the scope and intent of the DMCA.

There was no content posted, there was no content hosted on any server. It was merely a notice to sell some un needed material. Shame on them.

[knownartist]

Wow. What a thread. I can see a lot of finger pointing, jumping to conclusions, and assumptions being thrown about with careless abandon...tearing down a competitor of Mr. Weiss on Mr. Weiss' forum. What a novel approach. As I recall, those Aurora Graphics DVD's sold in like 1 day, so it appears that the seller wasn't affected.

I am the publisher / owner of Aurora Graphics. Aurora's License Agreement is a short read, takes about 2 minutes to read it if you are slow. Not a lot of legal mumbo jumbo, but straight to the point. The License says you don't own the software you are buying a License to use the software, the License isn't transferable. The software cannot be resold on any online venue, including but not limited to Ebay is an important part of it. The disk itself is in a sealed envelope with a clear window to see it inside. You have to physically move the License to get to the DVD sealed in the envelope. That envelope has a seal that states (in bold text) 'IMPORTANT By breaking this seal, you agree to be bound by the license agreement that accompanies this software.' So if you don't want to be bound by that license, DON'T BREAK THE ENVELOPE SEAL..jeeez people..just send it back. If the seal isn't broken, the Authorized Aurora Graphics distributor you bought it from will refund the price, and the UNOPENED disk envelope and case is shipped back to Aurora. No harm done, no foul. The critical thing here is someone taking 30 seconds to read the first 8 sentences to understand the License he is agreeing to be bound by.

With regards to the 'common license' agreement statement made in this thread... the one that allows re-sale of software... and someone said Adobe, Corel, Flexi, Signlab etc. Well, incompletely describing those titles and License in a comparison to my own is a little 'short' on information. No surprise that those little facts weren't explored as deeply as my own makes me wonder what the underlying motive is for this thread to begin with. With Flexi, Signlab, Gerber, Sign Wizard etc. you have the dongle that is required to make it run. That insures that their titles won't be kept running on the sellers machine after it has been resold and installed on the buyers machine. With Adobe and Corel, they have the automated registration serial number function that makes it stop running after 30 days unless you register it. If it's already been registered to another user first, then the disk is resold, how do you think a new user and new IP will be able to register that product serial number? I think not. This is another method of controling piracy...what else would it be there for? Adobe and Corel, Flexi, Signlab didn't jump through all those hoops for nothing...not to make it more difficult for the user...they did it to keep piracy in check. If others in the clipart business choose to produce a non-restrictive license, that is their business not mine. I do not try to impose my beliefs upon other publishers, contrary to Mr. Weiss' actions in this thread.

'Recycling software' is the rage these days....piracy is out of control. Buy unprotected data software from somewhere, copy to your HDD, then sell the original. Next guy does the same thing. Seller claims 'but it's the original disk' and it may well be, but you still have the images running on your HDD. Who is going to physically go from shop to shop and audit the users machines to make sure they deleted every reference to the disk? What about all the design work already done, job sold, and that file is still on the users machine only now it's incorporated into someones logo or banner, graphics, wrap etc. Possibly many, many 'customer' files contain design elements or fills from the disk that you no longer own a License to because you sold it. Do any of you really think the shop owner will delete all those files as well? How many of you would actually do that, then rebuild the file again...-perfectly- with your own creation or that of a competitor? Honestly, I don't think anyone could say they would delete those, and then actually do it. The reference to the image from the disk is still incorporated in the design, saved, and is available when the customer wants to re-order the graphic / sign / whatever.

Only last year (mid 2008?) was another pirate exposed right here on signs101. Mr. Weiss, I know you remember it, though you failed to reference that little nugget when you started this thread. A pirate was selling 'legit' copies of Aurora Graphics titles, and also had a great .jpg of the product....looked real, original etc. One alert 'customer' bought one or two of these titles and upon receiving them, discovered they they were in fact counterfeits. He sent them to me for verification. That started the landslide as more then 30 different shop owners took this guy up on his 'deal of a lifetime'. One by one they started to contact me and I finally got some of these titles in the mail. It took me a couple of minutes to discover that not only did he reprint the labels direct to the disk, but also copied the packaging as well. The .jpg image of the disks on the for-sale post didn't matter....they looked legit, but come to find out they were counterfeit.
About documentation shipped with an Aurora title: Mr. Weiss claims that as a former Aurora distributor, he KNOWS we don't offer any printed reference to our titles. Mr. Weiss continues and names the titles he thinks came with no book. Listing Millennium Edition, Platinum Edition (both of those titles come with 52 page full color books and always have) 3D Metal Machine (this one has a 20 page full color book) Raven has an 8 page full color book and always has. The Print Craft was the first product we ever published that had an on-disk .pdf catalog and no book. Wow, times change and so did we. Regardless, Mr. Weiss can bash our products / my decisions all day long but at the end of the day, he is not affiliated with my company and has no decision making capacity, nor will he ever be in a position to do so.

So lets consider an Aurora Graphics title that was bought legitimately and used by one of the members here who posted about it: 'Used it last week on a Yellow Page ad. Paid for itself many times over' or something to that effect. Happy with his software until this gang mentality thread comes along and then nearly everyone, like sheep, fell into the angry mob mentality.... and who was actually harmed?

Currently Mr. Weiss' forum is unharmed. The seller of the software is unharmed. The buyer is unharmed. But it looks like Aurora is taking a blood bath here. Non-facts being written as fact IS occuring here, at my company's good name and expense.

I actually contacted Mr. Weiss about the post in question and asked him to remove it. Mr. Weiss refused, stating that while he would always remove a clearly pirated incident, he would not police his forum for my License violations. (Of course I never asked him to police my License, simply remove the post of an (already sold item) After receiving a DMCA to prod Mr. Weiss into action, Mr. Weiss took it upon himself to start a thread about the incident, in light of the fact that the software had already sold. As Mr. Weiss, the administrator of this site, started the thread and has the ultimate control over what is allowed, what is deleted, and the general tone of the thread. Honestly, it reads as a general running-down of the Aurora brand. Frankly, I'm surprised Mr. Weiss has not only allowed this tearing down of the Aurora brand, but instigated it himself.
But then we are competitors aren't we? I guess we'll see if Mr. Weiss allows THIS post to remain on his site. -Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics

[Bigdawg]

Speaking as an admin too... I am pretty darn sure your post will stay and if you knew Mr. Weiss better you'd know that... but I'll let Fred speak for himself.

[Shovelhead]

Wow. What a thread. I can see a lot of finger pointing, jumping to conclusions, and assumptions being thrown about with careless abandon...tearing down a competitor of Mr. Weiss on Mr. Weiss' forum. What a novel approach. As I recall, those Aurora Graphics DVD's sold in like 1 day, so it appears that the seller wasn't affected.

I am the publisher / owner of Aurora Graphics. Aurora's License Agreement is a short read, takes about 2 minutes to read it if you are slow. Not a lot of legal mumbo jumbo, but straight to the point. The License says you don't own the software you are buying a License to use the software, the License isn't transferable. The software cannot be resold on any online venue, including but not limited to Ebay is an important part of it. The disk itself is in a sealed envelope with a clear window to see it inside. You have to physically move the License to get to the DVD sealed in the envelope. That envelope has a seal that states (in bold text) 'IMPORTANT By breaking this seal, you agree to be bound by the license agreement that accompanies this software.' So if you don't want to be bound by that license, DON'T BREAK THE ENVELOPE SEAL..jeeez people..just send it back. If the seal isn't broken, the Authorized Aurora Graphics distributor you bought it from will refund the price, and the UNOPENED disk envelope and case is shipped back to Aurora. No harm done, no foul. The critical thing here is someone taking 30 seconds to read the first 8 sentences to understand the License he is agreeing to be bound by.

With regards to the 'common license' agreement statement made in this thread... the one that allows re-sale of software... and someone said Adobe, Corel, Flexi, Signlab etc. Well, incompletely describing those titles and License in a comparison to my own is a little 'short' on information. No surprise that those little facts weren't explored as deeply as my own makes me wonder what the underlying motive is for this thread to begin with. With Flexi, Signlab, Gerber, Sign Wizard etc. you have the dongle that is required to make it run. That insures that their titles won't be kept running on the sellers machine after it has been resold and installed on the buyers machine. With Adobe and Corel, they have the automated registration serial number function that makes it stop running after 30 days unless you register it. If it's already been registered to another user first, then the disk is resold, how do you think a new user and new IP will be able to register that product serial number? I think not. This is another method of controling piracy...what else would it be there for? Adobe and Corel, Flexi, Signlab didn't jump through all those hoops for nothing...not to make it more difficult for the user...they did it to keep piracy in check. If others in the clipart business choose to produce a non-restrictive license, that is their business not mine. I do not try to impose my beliefs upon other publishers, contrary to Mr. Weiss' actions in this thread.

'Recycling software' is the rage these days....piracy is out of control. Buy unprotected data software from somewhere, copy to your HDD, then sell the original. Next guy does the same thing. Seller claims 'but it's the original disk' and it may well be, but you still have the images running on your HDD. Who is going to physically go from shop to shop and audit the users machines to make sure they deleted every reference to the disk? What about all the design work already done, job sold, and that file is still on the users machine only now it's incorporated into someones logo or banner, graphics, wrap etc. Possibly many, many 'customer' files contain design elements or fills from the disk that you no longer own a License to because you sold it. Do any of you really think the shop owner will delete all those files as well? How many of you would actually do that, then rebuild the file again...-perfectly- with your own creation or that of a competitor? Honestly, I don't think anyone could say they would delete those, and then actually do it. The reference to the image from the disk is still incorporated in the design, saved, and is available when the customer wants to re-order the graphic / sign / whatever.

Only last year (mid 2008?) was another pirate exposed right here on signs101. Mr. Weiss, I know you remember it, though you failed to reference that little nugget when you started this thread. A pirate was selling 'legit' copies of Aurora Graphics titles, and also had a great .jpg of the product....looked real, original etc. One alert 'customer' bought one or two of these titles and upon receiving them, discovered they they were in fact counterfeits. He sent them to me for verification. That started the landslide as more then 30 different shop owners took this guy up on his 'deal of a lifetime'. One by one they started to contact me and I finally got some of these titles in the mail. It took me a couple of minutes to discover that not only did he reprint the labels direct to the disk, but also copied the packaging as well. The .jpg image of the disks on the for-sale post didn't matter....they looked legit, but come to find out they were counterfeit.
About documentation shipped with an Aurora title: Mr. Weiss claims that as a former Aurora distributor, he KNOWS we don't offer any printed reference to our titles. Mr. Weiss continues and names the titles he thinks came with no book. Listing Millennium Edition, Platinum Edition (both of those titles come with 52 page full color books and always have) 3D Metal Machine (this one has a 20 page full color book) Raven has an 8 page full color book and always has. The Print Craft was the first product we ever published that had an on-disk .pdf catalog and no book. Wow, times change and so did we. Regardless, Mr. Weiss can bash our products / my decisions all day long but at the end of the day, he is not affiliated with my company and has no decision making capacity, nor will he ever be in a position to do so.

So lets consider an Aurora Graphics title that was bought legitimately and used by one of the members here who posted about it: 'Used it last week on a Yellow Page ad. Paid for itself many times over' or something to that effect. Happy with his software until this gang mentality thread comes along and then nearly everyone, like sheep, fell into the angry mob mentality.... and who was actually harmed?

Currently Mr. Weiss' forum is unharmed. The seller of the software is unharmed. The buyer is unharmed. But it looks like Aurora is taking a blood bath here. Non-facts being written as fact IS occuring here, at my company's good name and expense.

I actually contacted Mr. Weiss about the post in question and asked him to remove it. Mr. Weiss refused, stating that while he would always remove a clearly pirated incident, he would not police his forum for my License violations. (Of course I never asked him to police my License, simply remove the post of an (already sold item) After receiving a DMCA to prod Mr. Weiss into action, Mr. Weiss took it upon himself to start a thread about the incident, in light of the fact that the software had already sold. As Mr. Weiss, the administrator of this site, started the thread and has the ultimate control over what is allowed, what is deleted, and the general tone of the thread. Honestly, it reads as a general running-down of the Aurora brand. Frankly, I'm surprised Mr. Weiss has not only allowed this tearing down of the Aurora brand, but instigated it himself.
But then we are competitors aren't we? I guess we'll see if Mr. Weiss allows THIS post to remain on his site. -Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics



:Welcome: to :signs101: from New York. Do you make stickers?

[ProWraps™]

aurora graphics disks are the SH*T! they provide many, many a laugh every time we see them plastered all over amature wraps. they really do break up an otherwise boring day with hillarity! keep pumping that garbage out. it gives us a great way to distinguish us from our competition!

[Gino]

.
So, let me get this straight Mr -Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics….



You joined a year and a half ago and this is your first post ??

Well a fat and hearty welcome from one of those you just buddle up into your….. “this gang mentality thread comes along and then nearly everyone, like sheep, fell into the angry mob mentality.... and who was actually harmed?”

Since you now included me into your little tirade there…. I could care less about how you do business, conduct business or survive in your world…. but coming in here and directly or indirectly threatening anyone here is total nonsense Mr -Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics. I would stop that if I were you.

It’s one thing to come here and try to reason and straighten things out, but your approach is nothing more than a kid who wants to take his ball home and make idle threats.

And this little tid-bit of information…. “ Non-facts being written as fact IS occuring here, at my company's good name and expense”……is based upon facts from…. Where…. Who again ?? Do I understand this to be your facts ?? Oh yes, the competitor. I get the picture…. I almost forgot, you are…. Mr -Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics.

Anyway, not to further any misunderstanding on my part….. I simply don’t believe you…. yet. Can you offer up some visible proof or documentation other than YOUR say-so. I believe Fred, for he has nothing to hide, but you hiding in the wings for a year and a half makes me wonder who really wrote this letter for you ?? Did you have someone run ‘Damage Control’ and write you a quick little speech ??

C’mon, we all know you didn’t write this…. who wrote you and got you onto this ?? After all, I still don’t believe you just happened to see this and then wrote in this little rant of yours……



Take a look at your own title line…… Re: signs101/aurora/bashing/html :doh: :Oops:






.

[Fred Weiss]

Well now Dave ... welcome to Signs 101.

That's quite a reply! And it contains much that bends or ignores the facts and the primary point of the thread.

That primary point is that for the entire time I resold your product line, and I would assume for the entire time preceding that time, your products did not include an external print of the EULA and did not contain PDFs of the contents of the media disks. I feel confident that the overwhelming majority of your licensees are completely unaware of your no transfer policy and do not know they agreed to it. To this day you do not make your license available at your website and the only mention of the lack of transferability of your products is buried in your FAQ near the bottom of the list.

The simple facts are that while you include the restriction and now seek to enforce it, you very obviously do not make that information readily available to your licensees. The only logical reason why you would not do so is that you know it would cause a major loss of business.

The supposed printed documentation included in a few of your products are excellent brochures but are not much when it comes to providing much more than eye candy of installed work. They definitely will not make it as user guides and a catalog display of the contents of the collection.

You may recall that I suggested to you that I would be willing to create PDFs for my customers, submit them for your approval and then provide them as a value adding gesture. You turned me down cold.

As to a previous incident of illegal duplicates showing up here, I'll be happy to research it but I don't recall an incident of that proprotion happening here. I can only say that I have and have always had a zero tolerance for software piracy and that whatever the incident was, I would have acted immediately on proof of the crime.

Your statements regarding my references to other software products that allow and provide procedures for legal transfer of rights is totally off point. Whether they have the technology as a backup or not, all of those products provide procedures to transfer a license to a new licensee. You pretty much stand alone (except for Flame) in prohibiting transfers. And I understand your reasons. I simply take exception to them being neatly tucked away from view and left unknown to most until you decide to step in.

You have stated that because I am your competitor that this is what motivated me to create this thread. That's a diversion on your part and I made it clear in my opening post that I am in that role among others. It was not my reason however. The reason was that I resent you turning a friendly exchange of emails into a DMCA Takedown Notice. You asked me to delete the thread and I responded with a decline and my reasons. You then upped the ante with the notice.

So my response is that if you are going to require me to help enforce your license, then the details of that license should be made known to as many prospective licensees as possible. As a competitor I consider it a major selling point with the products we publish as compared to yours. But the reason for the thread is to call attention to your practices and policies as a service to my forum members and visitors.

[Rodi]

Problem is, look at the nasty font business, when a company is lauded like Bitstream, but they are Pirates of the first order (Ripped Linotype Fonts and renamed them) then look at Adobe Cronos and compare it to Today Sans from ScanGraphic, and it is sad. Adobe also got a Patent on Adobe Garamond, as a design! Look at it compared to Berthold Garamond (GG Lange) and Adobe is deravitive, its not original. So when Adobe or Bitstream are talking Piracy, you must laugh! I don't mind dongles, I do mind EULAS that ensnare you and make products far less useful without breaking the law.

[houseofgrafix]

Oh snap.. This just got good..

Fred just served Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics

[zmatalucci]

Lets boycott!!
Spread the word! I also have a brown box full of sh-t for sale!

[Dave Drane]

that's it... I'm pissed too, this company's schitt ain't welcome in my toolbox anymore either... F-um... I'm seriously going the brown box route too. Since they've already gave Fred grief, I'm not going to post about my complete DVD here, with their entire 6 CD library that will go for free with the sale of the brown box... but I'll be dammed if I hold onto that crap anymore...

...in all honesty, it's paid for itself a few times over already, & I even used it last week for the woodgrain in my yellow page ad... but screw 'em... I'm going to find some place to sell an f'n brown box for $425 just to dump that DVD as fast as I can move it out of my collection.

I would've got a lot more use out of it too... but not now. Them self centered losers can rot in hell with their deceptive policies. Anyone with a good idea where, outside of signs101, that I can dump this brown box with a free butload of aurora crap... PM me. I'm through with Aurora!

You may try Signs201!!:covereyes:

[sweetpea35]

Dave
I really don't like being accused of something I didn't do
and these are your words: (Only last year(mid 2008?)was another pirate exposed) So I'm a pirate I think you better think twice about who your accusing of what I was just wanting to pass on some software that I purchased from your supplier In good faith. That I no long had a use for.
You are the one not conducting good business If your going to have a no resell policy that is your business but let it be known up front before I spend
the $1100.00 dollars on your product. Not after I pay the money wait a week to get it then I find out after I break open the seal and can't return the product.
How would you like it if i sold you a car with the door taped shut and an envelope on the front seat when you break the seal on the door and read the envelope it says you my never sell this car you would not be a happy camper nether I'm I. At this point. And by the way you did kill the sale I know this should make you fill a little better seance you already got my $1100.00 and spent it anyway you dam well pleased hope one of us got Pleasure out of this because It wasn't me.

And I want to thank every body at signs 101 you've all been a great help in the past. I wish we could all be as friendly and ready to lend a helping hand as you guys and girls have been.

[zmatalucci]

This thread disgusts me!

I bought his shi--y cd, and never used it. I found alienskin right after I bought it, and haven't looked at his stuff since.

[Pat Whatley]

What the hell is it with these merchants? Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics, you know all you had to do was come in here, introduce yourself, and explain what you were trying to do. A simple appeal would have made you friends, you would have become a resource for people dealing with copyright issues (comes up weekly), and could have smoothed all this over as a positive for your company.

Instead you came in and went all Roger Bailey on everybody and "Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics" is going to become a punchline.

Man, I understand your point but the attack is some crap I'd expect out of me...not somebody trying to sell products.

[Techman]

Dave of aurora...

After receiving a DMCA to prod Mr. Weiss into action,

Was this prod a legitimate DMCA complaint or not? Or was it just a club used because you know people will not waste their time with it?

If this DMCA prod was nothing more than a bully pulpit deal then how could any one not expect to be on the receiving end of some outspoken post. Businesses have used the DMCA to stifle criticism, competition, the flow of information and found themselves getting some heat all the time.

The DMCA was enacted to prevent hacking. How can does the sale of some graphics fall into the hacking arena?

next...
How does your eula fit in with the first sale doctrine.
The "first sale" doctrine says that a person who buys a legally produced copyrighted work may "sell or otherwise dispose" of the work as he sees fit,

The License says you don't own the software you are buying a License to use the software, the License isn't transferable.

Is this license in plain view or is it inside deep within and cannot be read until after opening the package?

[rcook99]

:popcorn::beer

[futuredcon]

Ironic. Quote "For openers, Signs 101 will no longer permit advertising of any software product for sale from Aurora Graphics" Unquote

the banner on your forum website from one of your advertisers wrapvinyl.com sells Aurora products.

[iSign]

Funny. Quote "For openers, Signs 101 will no longer permit advertising of any software product for sale from Aurora Graphics" Unquote

the banner on your forum website from one of your advertisers wrapvinyl.com sells Aurora products.
funny?
Is that supposed to be some impressive investigative journalism or something? Lots of company's sell Aurora, and Fred used to sell it himself. He diesn't have an axe to grind with Aurora, and wouldn't ever have reason to care of a sponsor of this site sells Aurora products... he simply gave us all a heads up about the reason for removing a post, and a notification about a new ruling about future for sale posts not being allowed for second hand Aurora products :doh:

[grafixemporium]

If Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics, produced an original software product containing unique and one-of-a-kind graphics, I might consider actually reading his side of this argument. However, since Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics is peddling regurgitated textures made from Eye Candy filters, all I can do is laugh at Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics. I hadn't planned on buying Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphic's product in the first place... but you can bet your a$$ I'm not gonna buy it now.

I'm surprised Alien Skin hasn't served up Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics, with a cease and desist yet.

[B Snyder]

Me thinks Mr. Dorsey really **** the bed on this one.

[iSign]

Me thinks Mr. Dorsey really **** the bed on this one.

..wait, that's Mr. Dave Dorsey, comma, President (with a capital P), comma, Aurora Graphics ...

[Bigdawg]

So Mr. Dave Dorsey, President, Aurora Graphics.... I waited until I was just a wee bit calmer and Fred could respond before I decided to tell you what a piece of work I think you are... not that it really matters... I think I made my feelings about you and your company known earlier when I realized you think your customers are a bunch of thievin' b@s!ards.

You sign up here a year and a half ago, but never bother to post. Not once. Until you waltz in here and call Fred out because he wouldn't do what you wanted. Well guess what, Mr. Dave Dorsey, President, Aurora Graphics, you came into our house, called out one of the most respected members of the sign community and made an *** of yourself doing it.

See, Mr. Dave Dorsey, President, Aurora Graphics - while you apparently had no idea what kind of ethics, morals or downright fairness Fred runs this forum with, the rest of us here on signs101 know what kind of integrity he has. And I could have read through the drivel you posted without getting my panties in a wad if you hadn't implied - no stated as some kind of fact - otherwise. Now THAT pisses me off.

Unlike some others, I don't necessarily think you had someone else write that letter for you because I spent 3 years in public relations for a major hospital chain. I know how to handle public relations when something like this occurs. Pat nailed it on the head on how you SHOULD have handled it. How I would have handled it. How any PR professional except Mr. Dave Dorsey, President, Aurora Graphics would have handled it. But I'd be willing to bet that you didn't fly that little letter past your marketing/public relations people because it never would have been posted here if you had. And if you did, my professional advice would be to fire the lot of 'em.

You let your temper get the better of you and instead of turning a situation to your advantage... you pissed a whole lotta' people off. Not to mention that "facts" (and I use that term loosely in this case, Mr. Dave Dorsey, President, Aurora Graphics) in your post bear some closer scrutiny... I have bought used software before - legally.

What Fred did here was to post information that was pertinent to the sign industry. Your EULA is buried and you VERY OBVIOUSLY didn't want people to know about it easily. He informed us of what transpired without slamming your company, you or anything your company produces. He even spoke up and defended your product.

Too bad you don't have that kind of class, Mr. Dave Dorsey, President, Aurora Graphics

[iSign]

:goodpost: Good post Bigdawg, very good post!

[ddarlak]

yea dave you kinda **** the bed here...

PR is everything, think before you act/speak, it's your companies REP at stake.....

that being said, this little explosion of bad press wouldn't stop me from buying your software if it was something i needed.....

but i don't.....

[fenris242]

If Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics, produced an original software product containing unique and one-of-a-kind graphics, I might consider actually reading his side of this argument. However, since Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics is peddling regurgitated textures made from Eye Candy filters, all I can do is laugh at Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics. I hadn't planned on buying Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphic's product in the first place... but you can bet your a$$ I'm not gonna buy it now.

I'm surprised Alien Skin hasn't served up Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics, with a cease and desist yet.

did you type "Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics" every time or did you copy and paste? :ROFLMAO:

[iSign]

...this little explosion of bad press wouldn't stop me from buying your software if it was something i needed.....


contrary to some of the "sheep" theories, the possibility of a trend away from buying, or valuing products from DD, P, AG is NOT the "bad press" ...the possibility of a trend away from buying, or valuing these products is that they do not retain any resale value.

Sure, a product that pays for itself several times over can be a good investment... but what makes it pay for itself is a good sales person/designer, who appreciates those images, and who's clients appreciate those images, and who remains in the business of moving those images to those clients.

For someone who turns out not to be a good sales person/designer, or who turns out not to remain in the business of moving those images to those clients... other similar image collections will retain some resale value. I would have expected the same of products from DD, P, AG.

I expected wrong, I won't buy anymore products from DD, P, AG, & I appreciate Fred drawing attention to this lack of resale value issue. I also still have a brown box for sale available outside the confines of signs101... & there is a free, non-transferable PrintCraft Pro Fills Suite DVD that I can't legally throw in the box with it :rolleyes: Bummer...

[zmatalucci]

He seems super important with the title, "Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics"
Maybe we should see about authorizing some USSS protection for this guy. After all, he did just **** alot of people off!

[jscarl]

WOW!!!! Well Mr Dave Dorsey and all that other crap, Me thinks your a@@ is grass with Stacy and about all of the rest of us here at 101. Good post Bigdawg.:cool1:

[fenris242]

The reference to the image from the disk is still incorporated in the design, saved, and is available when the customer wants to re-order the graphic / sign / whatever.


should i take this to mean that if i design a logo in corel and then turn around an legally sell my version of corel, that i'm not allowed to use that design? because i no longer have the corel license?? i'm confused with all the gibberish....doesn't take much :Big Laugh

[iSign]

should i take this to mean that if i design a logo in corel and then turn around an legally sell my version of corel, that i'm not allowed to use that design? because i no longer have the corel license?? i'm confused with all the gibberish....doesn't take much :Big Laugh

No... Corel sold you a license to use their tools to build something, after which you can legally transfer that license to the tools, & yet you can still keep what you built with them.

Clipart collections are a little different, because while you typically can't resell just the clipart, you can use it to design original creations that use elements from your collection, within the parameters of each collections specified guidelines or restrictions.

Dave makes a valid point that if someone legally transfers one of his competitors collections, with no ill intent, & has never copied the entire CD, or willfully stockpiled files on a hard drive... if a select few of the elements that were used during that licensee's time of holding the license end up in those client folders, after transferring the license... a grey area may now exist.

If I go into an old client file & pull out a fill I used from one of fred's collections, after legally transferring that collection... I shouldn't pull that old fill & use it on a new design. That would not be a grey area in my opinion, and would be a clear violation. Where I think Dave gets a little carried away is in filling reorders for a client who's designs were done while I owned the license.

In that situation, I would think the resulting creation, that I made as a legal licensee, and legally "sold" to my client, would then be their property, & reproduction of the original creation containing a clipart element would not subject to any ongoing license requirements.

It will be interesting to hear what Fred will have to say on this. (or DD, P, AG)

[fenris242]

Where I think Dave gets a little carried away is in filling reorders for a client who's designs were done while I owned the license.

In that situation, I would think the resulting creation, that I made as a legal licensee, and legally "sold" to my client, would then be their property, & reproduction of the original creation containing a clipart element would not subject to any ongoing license requirements.


that's where i was seeing it as completely absurd...i can't very well tell my customer, "oh hey, i sold that clipart collection, so i can no longer print that on your signs..."

and thanks, isign, for helping to clear up my insanity....i'm not having the greatest day so far...

[SignosaurusRex]

Wow. What a thread. I can see a lot of finger pointing, jumping to conclusions, and assumptions being thrown about with careless abandon...tearing down a competitor of Mr. Weiss on Mr. Weiss' forum. What a novel approach. As I recall, those Aurora Graphics DVD's sold in like 1 day, so it appears that the seller wasn't affected. I am the publisher / owner of Aurora Graphics. ..............BLAH - blah - BLAH - BLOW - blow - BLOW...........-Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics

Fabulous post Mr. Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics! Without it, as well as Fred's informative and fair public service announcement I would have never known. I might have become another very pissed off customer. You see, Mr. Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics.....This is another example of why I am a contributing member here at Signs101. I can get all of THE FACTS here....get INFORMED and EDUCATED....just as you are now. I'm sorry to see you take the approach that you have. I was considering a purchase of some of your suites but now I can't say that I ever will. Good luck Mr. Dave.
Thanks for another informative PSA Fred!:thumb:

[Pat Whatley]

"Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics" is going to become a punchline.

Told you so...:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

[Fred Weiss]

No... Corel sold you a license to use their tools to build something, after which you can legally transfer that license to the tools, & yet you can still keep what you built with them.

Clipart collections are a little different, because while you typically can't resell just the clipart, you can use it to design original creations that use elements from your collection, within the parameters of each collections specified guidelines or restrictions.

Dave makes a valid point that if someone legally transfers one of his competitors collections, with no ill intent, & has never copied the entire CD, or willfully stockpiled files on a hard drive... if a select few of the elements that were used during that licensee's time of holding the license end up in those client folders, after transferring the license... a grey area may now exist.

If I go into an old client file & pull out a fill I used from one of fred's collections, after legally transferring that collection... I shouldn't pull that old fill & use it on a new design. That would not be a grey area in my opinion, and would be a clear violation. Where I think Dave gets a little carried away is in filling reorders for a client who's designs were done while I owned the license.

In that situation, I would think the resulting creation, that I made as a legal licensee, and legally "sold" to my client, would then be their property, & reproduction of the original creation containing a clipart element would not subject to any ongoing license requirements.

It will be interesting to hear what Fred will have to say on this. (or DD, P, AG)

I think your explanation is right on.

The fact that a product has delivered value to it's buyer/licensee has nothing to do with the buyer seeking to recover some of his or her investment by selling the product at a later time. And this is never at issue when we are talking about hard goods because one must physically possess the item to benefit and physical possession is surrendered when the item is sold.

Software presents other problems and there are different ways to deal with it. With clipart and digital art collections, the commonly accepted way is to create a printed user guide for the collection that makes the collection more efficient to use and without it leaves the collection quite difficult to use. It becomes the hard goods portion of the product. So when one of our licensees wants to transfer rights, we can be comfortable with that because we know the user guide will have to go with it. Our license clearly states in the transfer of rights portion that the original licensee agrees to destroy all archives of our files. It would never occur to me that I would carry that through to jobs already created. That represents the value I delivered to the original licensee from which I benefited by making a sale.

So as long as the original licensee creates no new projects from my artwork, I am satisfied with the passing on of his or her rights for whatever value may be had.

One might ask why Aurora has not protected their artwork as described with a user guide. While I have no direct knowledge as to their true reasons, I will share an insight into a phenomenon we have experienced as a seller of clipart and digital art collections.

We do most of our marketing by telephone with websites in support for any prospective buyer to examine the goods. Part of what we experience in this process is a small percentage of buyers who want to return a collection after receiving it and flipping through the user guide but not breaking the seal on the media disk. It happens for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with the artwork in the collection and we accept it as part of our sales process.

Here's the phenomenon ... We almost never had a request for a return on an Aurora product or any other collection that was sold without a printed user guide. The one thing each of these products has in common is the lack of a printed user guide and a gallery of the images in the collection.

We gained more insight into the phenomenon when we made the next scheduled phone call to our clients ... typically once every three months. What we discovered was that without a printed user guide most had never looked at the collection and after several months had not used it or browsed through it. Therefore, they never felt the urge to return it.

[Deaton Design]

All good points, and I think Doug hit it on the head. Anything you made while owning the collection or whatever, you should be able to use on and on, as in customer files that have the fills, clipart, whatever. New creations are another matter. If you sell the collections and keep a copy of them yourself, thats a no-no.

[Just Another Sign Guy]

Uhm Mr. Dave Dorsey, comma, President (with a capital P), comma, Aurora Graphics ...let's be clear here. Fred Weiss is not bashing you or your product...but the majority of the sign industry is. Maybe you should separate yourself from your ego and listen to what could have been a good many potential clients of yours (and a good many ex-customers of yours) are saying and take notes....but at this point you've done a pretty good job of alienating yourself, your company and your products... way to go..great marketing..great way to stand up and state your 'position'.. you've hurt yourself more than anyone else could have.

[Replicator]

I don't own any of Mr. Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics Clipart collections . . . and guess what, I NEVER WILL !

:Welcome:2 :signs101: Mr. Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics.

We here at :signs101: are :notworthy: of being in your presence . . . So I bid you a not-so-fond FAREWELL

Mr. Dave Dorsey, President Aurora Graphics
:iamwithstupid

[JimJenson]

So I suppose the fine print after purchase waves a purchasers right to "first sale doctrine"?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

[Techman]

So I suppose the fine print after purchase waves a purchasers right to "first sale doctrine"?

No.
So far federal courts have said so.
Only congress can make laws. Software companies cannot make laws. They cannot write a rule that supersedes laws.

Numerous recent lawsuits have shown this to be true and that First Sale rules in all cases. Autocad lost. RIAA lost. The music industry lost. All of them are losing their claims. A few are in appeals but the out come appears that the decisions will be upheld.

The door swung wide open and companies who before did not sell used software are now getting into the market.

You can sell your cd's. EULA's cannot make or change the law.

But then, I am not a legal eagle.

[Pat Whatley]

I was wondering about ole Dave Dorsey, President, Aurora Graphics a couple of weeks ago.

[petrosgraphics]

we try to protect sketches and designs for customers.. you can spend a few hour designing something hand it over to the customer and never see it again.... all of a sudden
it shows up as a sign in front of their building..... looks exactly like the sketch you gave him to look at...
what do you do, take him to small claims court to get some money out of the guy...
that can be a royal pain!!!!!
something as simple as a sketch still belongs to the design co. i have always put a disclaimer at the bot. of every sketch, but you can not spend you life trying to recoup
some money....

[eye4color]

My worst two purchases of 2008 was "Digital Firestorm" form Aurora Graphics and "The Bad Wrap" from Fellers. Wish I had that money back! The Bad Wrap was supposed to have free updates at the time but I guess it was the old "bait and switch" again. "Digital Firestorm" just made me feel stupid for ordering it.

[Fred Weiss]

I was wondering about ole Dave Dorsey, President, Aurora Graphics a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.signs101.com/forums/../images/sissy.gif What were you wondering?

[zmatalucci]

Is he still President, and does he require USSS protection for being a douche bag?

[gnemmas]

There is another company I like to alert to fellow member. Cyrious Software, which costs upwards of $3500.

The license states they have the right to refuse transfer if you choose to let it go. So far they haven't refuse to transfer, just want anywhere from $500 to whatever to transfer.

Lesson here: BEFORE shell out big chunks of money, have the vendor spell out their policy in writing regarding their first use policy. Once they got your money, your done with.

[CheapVehicleWrap]

Mr. Dave Dorsey, President, Aurora Graphics, May I call you Dick?

[Pat Whatley]

http://www.signs101.com/forums/../images/sissy.gif What were you wondering?

Guy from a close down shop came by with a box full of clipart to see if I'd be interested in buying any of it. He had the Firestorm set and the Half Wrap sets in there and it made me remember this post.

Don't worry Dave, I passed on buying the software.

[Kentucky Wraps]

We have the same policy. Reason being... people buy a disc, copy the files, and then sell it. Another person buys it, does the same, and sells it.... and on and on and on it goes.

AMEN BROTHA! If I wanna buy a disc of thiers...I have to pay full price from them rather than buying it for few bucks used from an old shop owner...who already has the files on thier pc. Does that suck for me...ABSOLUTELY...is it a smart business decision of thiers though...OF COURSE!

[Kentucky Wraps]

I don't think that is the problem. I think the problem would be not being upfront about that policy before the purchase. Correct me if i'm wrong Fred.

I did a little research of my own before considering any purchases from any company...guess what...
On their website...there is a button called TERMS I clicked on it..and spelled out in plain english were the terms describing the very things that are being called "hidden". I didn't find anything deceptive about this and I didn't have to purchase anything in order to find it. Do I like the idea of those limitations as an end user...NO! Do I blame them for doing so...no.

[Kentucky Wraps]

Personally I think it's BUNK !

If I buy something, then I own it, and I'll do whatever the hell I want with it, and if someone doesn't like that then TOUGH CRAP !

I will never buy an Aurora Graphics Product . . . EVER ! ! !

and now back to your regularly scheduled company bashing . . . !

So...if you produce a business card layout, brochure layout and logo for a customer, and they say.."give me the disc so I can have the shop across the street do all my printing and signage because I own it"...you would do so?

[Fred Weiss]

I did a little research of my own before considering any purchases from any company...guess what...
On their website...there is a button called TERMS I clicked on it..and spelled out in plain english were the terms describing the very things that are being called "hidden". I didn't find anything deceptive about this and I didn't have to purchase anything in order to find it. Do I like the idea of those limitations as an end user...NO! Do I blame them for doing so...no.

Your point misses the fact that the bulk of the CD and DVD versions of Aurora's products were published with the license packed inside the case, which was shrunk wrapped, and that no terms were displayed on their website or anywhere else. So you are not aware of the license until after you have opened the case. The fact that Aurora has since become a little more open about their out of step terms does not change the fact that in January of last year, when this thread was started, this was not the case and most licensees had absolutely no idea that they had "agreed" to such terms.

[Techman]

If the author would use a simple security technique,, he would not have to worry about some user copying his work then passing it along. This simple technique would be almost invisible to the end user.

But, it seems he would rather use onerous user agreements instead. The very same agreements that are getting shot down by the court rulings.

[miguelon.lizarraga]

If the author would use a simple security technique,, he would not have to worry about some user copying his work then passing it along. This simple technique would be almost invisible to the end user.

But, it seems he would rather use onerous user agreements instead. The very same agreements that are getting shot down by the court rulings.

What is this teqnique? How is it done? Or can you point me to that direction?

[Fred Weiss]

What is this teqnique? How is it done? Or can you point me to that direction?

http://www.signs101.com/forums/../images/blondie.gif Yes, I'd like to know this as well ... and I'm in the business.

[Replicator]

Me too . . . Fill us all in on this simple security technique PLEASE ! ! !

[Techman]

Simply put a timer on the dvd.
It times out one year from now.

When the unauthorized copy times out,, its done forever.
When the authorized copy times out then the owner calls up and gets a new dvd mailed to him with some FREE goodies extra.

You win, the original purchaser scores some extra goodies and wins.
The unauthorized copy loses.

I did that with one of my dvd's and suddenly one day I get a call about a replacement for a dead dvd. Sorry, but I have no record of you ordering one. From whom did you purchase your copy? Ansewr,,,click...

[Fred Weiss]

Simply put a timer on the dvd.
It times out one year from now.

When the unauthorized copy times out,, its done forever.
When the authorized copy times out then the owner calls up and gets a new dvd mailed to him with some FREE goodies extra.

You win, the original purchaser scores some extra goodies and wins.
The unauthorized copy loses.

I did that with one of my dvd's and suddenly one day I get a call about a replacement for a dead dvd. Sorry, but I have no record of you ordering one. From whom did you purchase your copy? Ansewr,,,click...

And this would work how through the reseller channels? What prevents a user from copying all to their hard drive and recreating the DVD?

I understand where you're coming from but it won't protect my files once removed from the DVD; goes against the standard of the industry in creating a backup copy; and it is liable to inconvenience legitimate customers.

[jiarby]

First Sale Doctrine is well litigated... a EULA does not preclude a person from selling their software to anyone they want. Just ask the AutoCAD folks.

I think that producing digital content of any kind is a risky business proposition because there is no real way to protect your intellectual property. Movies, Music, Art, Fonts, Books, etc... all have the same problem.

[signswi]

Sure there is, it's called subscription model. Software as a Service (SaaS), the direction everything is going. Culture things like movies, music, etc. you make money from verticals through the IP. It's a new world :).

[btropical.com]

Get em Fred ! I am guessing you will be running a special ?

[iSign]

since someone revived an ancient thread...

I have a brown bag for sale

[njshorts]

http://www.allcompu.com/myicons/donderwolk.gif


that photo isn't uploaded to signs101.com!























please dont ban me either, and check your PMs :)

[john527]

well it looks like I will sell it at a flea market!

[TyrantDesigner]

Wow, old thread.

Sell it on craigslist.

as for aurora graphics ... why the heck would anyone buy something they can do themselves with fricken alien skin products http://www.alienskin.com/ ... seriously ... that is all they used.

Here is the tutorial for their p.o.s. graphics.

import vector shape >load up eye candy > make graphics 'WICKED' >save, import and resize to vector outline ... done.

[jasonx]

It's illegal in Australia to force users to accept a licence without being able to read that licence before they accept it.

Having a seal that states you agree to something you can't read isn't legal here. So good luck enforcing it down here.

[SightLine]

They do put the licensing terms on a card outside the actual sealed disc sleeve now.... You have every opportunity to read it before breaking the seal.

I do dislike the no-resale part but in some ways I understand why they have it. I'd hope that if you bought some of their graphics in the fist place you did so because you had a live job sold that is going to effectively pay for it anyways. In that respect it costs you nothing to begin with so why get so bent when you cannot profit on something that was free? I do agree that a lot of their stuff is easily made yourself. They do have a few things that are a bit more complex though and would be pretty time consuming to recreate just in rendering time alone.

It's illegal in Australia to force users to accept a licence without being able to read that licence before they accept it.

Having a seal that states you agree to something you can't read isn't legal here. So good luck enforcing it down here.

[visual800]

this what adobe thinks also which is BS! I will list and sell whatever I buy. If I get busted Ill try again. Nothing is permanent realtionships dont last forever. There is so much pirated vector crap out there its ridiculous and to be honest this collection does suck and has always sucked.

If I but something it's mine, when it's mine Ill do what I want with it. The hell with all those hidden EULA and your right IF this was spelled out before you bought something no one would buy

I wish everything in life was right out front, no lies, no coverup, all spelled out