Sign Warehouse

[Mikeifg]

O.K. here's the deal. I ordered some material on Jan 30th. I called in and the person I spoke with could not find the product I wanted and suggested I order it online. :help So I order it online and 4 days later I call and they never shipped it out. :banghead: So without giving me free shipping (Like all the other suppliers offer)for my troubles it's shipped and I still dont have it!!! That's O.K. though my competetion took care of me and got the order done when my client went to them. What pisses me off is I have not recieved any apology or reimbursement for any of this. In today's econimic times what the hell is a company thinking. Where's the customer service. I had not used them in about a year and thought I would give them another try.:doh: So does anyone know of a supplier of Oracal 200 40" Laminate.

Mike

[southside signmaker]

Fellers and Advantage sign supply carry the Oracal brand and 200 series. I think the issue is the 40" size seems a bit unusual. As for Signwarehouse the company is one I will never do business with because they have become a competitor for me.

As I made a sales call right before Christmas to one of my smaller clients (average yearly sales $1,400), they informed me that they had purchased their own sign making equipment. I took a quick peek and noticed a 8-10 year old plotter with Signwarehouse decals all over it. The manager at the clients office asked me to take a look at it as it was not plotting correctly. I could not help him (nor would I), but did ask what type of pricing he received on material. When the price came back at my cost I new I had a new competitor on "the street". What a shame that competitor was a mail order outfit a 1000 miles away. I promptly informed SW that I budgeted 30K for printing equipment and the bid from them would not be considered.

With the economy the way it is it is time to take a close look at suppliers and find ones that help your business. An article by Vince Dicecco in Sign Business, Dec. 2008 had an excellent article regarding suppliers. I highly recommend it.

Sorry to hear you lost a job because of an ineffective supplier.

[sarge]

i have had simular and worse problems with SW .. Midwest Sign Supply has always been good to me .. and they ship i am sure .. also Northwest Sign Supply, however i am not sure they ship .. NW is my goto guys .. i order @ 0730hrs .. here @ 1000hrs free delivery and they have NEVER screwed me .. i get calls from them to see how the delivery process is working from me at least once a quarter .. as for the Oracal call Midwest .. i am pretty sure they ship

[Pat Whatley]

Several months ago I got an email offer from them for 10 50-yard rolls of LG vinyl for something like $200. The order page said nothing about the length of the rolls.

When the order confirmation came in they were 10 yard rolls instead of 50 yard. I emailed, called, left messages and NOBODY would ever get back with me. I figured that when it came in I'd just refuse the shipping and dispute the charge. I was out when the box arrived, my employee (who didn't know any better) opened it and had already used four of them before I realized it so I was stuck with them.

I could have lived with someone telling me it was a typo. It wasn't that big of a deal to me, it was only $200. It's just the fact that NOBODY ever bothered to return any of my emails or phone calls pissed me off. They sure seemed to call me a couple of times a day when I was looking at at ValueJet.

Hate it but they aren't a vendor I'll use again.

[149motorsports]

I called few weeks back asking for a new 2009 pricing guide, told them i had the old 2008 issue, well 2 weeks later they send me the exact copy i allready told them i have!:frustrated:

[sarge]

Mike .. Midwest Sign Supply and Northwest Sign Supply will ship .. just google them .. like i said, i tend to use Northwest first .. and both are located in the seattle area .. but i am sure Midwest has a store closer to you

[Mikeifg]

Thanks, Sarge I'll try them.

[Pro Image]

Try Fellers.......They have a warehouse in Indy should be a 1 day ship to you........

[JBarraxSW]

Mike. I'm sorry to hear about your problem with the OraGuard order. It looks like we dropped the balll on that one. If you will kindly PM me with your contact info, I'll see what I can do.

[JBarraxSW]

I called few weeks back asking for a new 2009 pricing guide, told them i had the old 2008 issue, well 2 weeks later they send me the exact copy i allready told them i have!:frustrated:

Sorry for the mixup 149.
We had the same part number on the 2008 and 2009 books, so your sales rep couldn't tell which edition he or she was shipping. I brought it to the attention of our President and the Purchasing staff. We've changed the internal part number to make sure that doesn't happen again. And we have plenty of the 2009 versionn in stock.
Thanks for the feedback. :-)

[Pat Whatley]

Hey Jerry...want to explain the lack of communication on the LG vinyl?

[JBarraxSW]

Judging from what you've posted there was a simple omission in the Email blast. As often as we look over the proofs, we sometimes miss a detail like that. I say "we" because I'm involved in managing that process and it's tricky to cath your own mistakes. After having looked at a promotion six or seven times, you stop seeing it objectively.
At any rate, your sales rep certainly should have returned your call and let you know that there was an error in the blast and that we couldn't sell 50 yd rolls for the price of tens.

[Pat Whatley]

Wasn't an omission...it said 24" x 50 yd. rolls. But it's cool, I still made money with the vinyl. Thanks for explaining...an apology would have been nice from somebody, at some point, but I guess an excuse will suffice.

[Raulrdz]

Go figure...I just got back from Target and as I walked the isles I noticed something that I had seen at other retailers...empty shelves especially on large items like LCD tv's and such. Now I know it's income tax time and many are getting their returns back and spending money but not so much that the shelves would be empty. I spoke with a friend of mine who is the manager of the local Office Supply store and he stated that because of the economy, the trend in retail is to sell as much inventory as possible and not carry such big overhead which explains the empty shelves. You would think with times as they are, vendors such as SW, Fellers and such would be bending over backwards for customers. If they haven't yet realized it, what's going to keep customers buying from them during these hard times is customer service, it's a cheap commodity that carries a lot o weight with customers. I can never understand why its so hard for some companies to treat their customers right and do the right thing, after all isn't that the right thing to do regardless of the ecomomy.

[sarge]

raul .. a few days ago customer service came up on another thread .. i viewed my feeling about getting screwed by a vendor and the vendors not doing what they could to fix the problem and .. i got flamed .. and got it from some of our merchant members .. i think it is sad, that they dont feel keeping a customer at all cost is paramont to the servival of their business .. i got hosed by a merchant member in this forum years ago .. wacked me out so bad i found someone new .. and i have spent 100's of thousands in the past years from guys i mentioned above .. every chance i get i recommend the good guy vrs the bad guys

[Techman]

The four answers of responsibility...

Yes,
No,
I don't know
No excuse.

Simple. Live up to these four words reduces excuses, blame, and deflection.

Did an error occur ?
YEs.

Did we do anything to make sure it does not happen again?
yes.

Is there anything else we can do to make sure it does not happen?
No.

Why did it happen in the first place?
I did now know there was an error?

Why didn't you know?
There is no excuse.

Eliminate the "I don't know factor" and the mistake will never happen in the first place.

Hm maybe making these rules a policy in the customer service departments will make a difference.

[cdiesel]

I dunno.. it seems like it's all the time with SW.

Jerry's always here to apologize, but honestly, what good's that do? Like Pat, you can't even get a call back half the time.

[B Snyder]

I dunno.. it seems like it's all the time with SW.

Jerry's always here to apologize, but honestly, what good's that do? Like Pat, you can't even get a call back half the time.



You're right. Search any sign related message board and you'll find the same scenarios over and over again year after year.

[southside signmaker]

Maybe Jerry can pm me and give me the finer points of selling a car dealer material at the same price point many on this board are getting. Maybe someone can get their head out of their rear end and concentrate on sign customers and not car dealers.

When I called sw a nice sales woman explained to me that they had no control over who they sold to. Great now we have sign suppliers selling to end users.. End users that will have a hard time spending more than $300 bucks a year in vinyl.

Jerry fell free to pm me and we can go over the finer points of what a distributor is supposed to accomplish for their customers.

[The Sign Dude]

Hey you fellas take it easy on the old S-DUB. they were nice enough to offer me a FREE pair of scissors if I ordered a $100 worth of stuff from them WOO HOO. :banghead:

[Techman]

Let me tell a rambling true story

Years ago another supplier in another industry fell into the trap of selling to the wrong parties. They appeared at a convention and promptly got their butt in a sling over selling to the wrong parties.

This particular company treated each client as an individual account. It didn't care who was on that account. All they wanted was to sell as much as possible. This was very mistaken because as soon as the clients found themselves competing against other non industry users they bolted.. The old line pro's simply refused to buy from that supplier any more. New clients would buy but later leave when they saw the conflicts. For the first few months this supplier insisted he had the right to sell to whom he pleased and besides he had no control over who bought from them.

Fine. The original buyers who supported this supplier felt betrayed and finally turned away. Let the other non industry clients buy their junk. This and a few other small missteps all based in ignorance and arrogance cost this supplier more than they ever knew. Likewise a few other suppliers came around and some gained market share.

Finally at this convention, the supplier company's president came in. He said he was sorry every one was so upset and wanted to know what would make the clients happy.

One,, stop treating the individual clients as hundreds of tiny accounts with no buying power, with no say in product lines and no recourse. Stop telling these clients to "take it or leave it" Start treating all those little individual clients as an industry with huge buying power and protect that market.

In other words. The clients didn't care what that supplier sold. All they wanted was to have their segment protected. Then the clients said.. why not make a different line of products to sell to that other segment? Whats so difficult with that?

Today that supplier has separate line that caters to the original client base with great products and is growing in share. And they supply to another non traditional client base with sales growing in that separate segment.

So, sign warehouse.. Why not protect the sign industry market share? Loyalty has its privileges. After all your name is "sign warehouse".

[sarge]

tecman .. i hear ya .. i believe life goes in circles .. what comes around will go around .. and some of these guys think the client owes them .. that is so not true .. i believe also that most of a good business is from word of mouth .. not word of prey .. or pray .. by the sound of some of the guys in this forum it is word of pray .. they pray someone would hire them ..and that makes one think what are the issues cuz i have more business then i can handle right now

[southside signmaker]

Techman,

Very well said!

[HP5000ps]

You know it looks like there is an opportunity for a sign maker to turn sign maker supplier here.

Get after it.

[JBarraxSW]

A few comments about this wide ranging topic.
To Pat. We're sorry for the inconvenience.
To Raul and co. What we're seeing with the empty shelf syndrome is companies trying to find ways to survive the most challenging economy since the Depression. Best Buy's CEO declared last October that the shift in consumer behavior is nothing less than "seismic." With such drastic changes in the economic conditions, companies large and small have to find ways to adapt or they simply go away (like WAMU, Wachovia, Bennigan's, Circuit City, and Art on Glass).
It's easy for us as consumers to say that providing excellent service is the way to survive, but the reality, born out by the 1.3 million layoffs nationwide in just the past few months, is that most companies simply can't afford to keep the same number of employees when sales decline as sharply as they did in late 2008.
Speaking of reductions, you will note that the new Fellers catalog no longer tells you how many locations they have. Might it be because they're closing a few stores?
Some of you have accused of being in competition with our customers. We do not sell signs and banners and we don't do wholesale printing. We certainly could. We have the equipment. We have an established internet presence that would give us immediate access to lots of people looking for finished signage. But we are a wholesale supplier, not a retailer. So we don't sell signage because we don't believe in competing with our customers.
As a wholesaler, we do offer equipment to lots of people including sign businesses, government agencies, and yes, car dealers. One of the rules of growing a business (and surviving a recession) is to look for new business opportunities. SAI is doing this by offering paint protection templates, and encouraging sign business to sell services normally offered by car dealers. How do you think the car dealers feel about sign makers encroaching on their lucrative paint protection business?
Roland is doing likewise by marketing rotary engravers for producing rhinestone decorated t-shirts. How do you think the screen print and embroidery people feel about Roland and its distributors equipping sign makers to compete with them?
The simple truth is, we're all looking for ways to sustain and increase sales. One of those ways is finding new markets for our products and services, just as SAI and Roland are doing. Just as many of you are doing. Diversification is simply a way to ensure that we continue to grow so we can be here next year and the year after to serve the industry.

[Pat Whatley]

To Pat. We're sorry for the inconvenience.

Dammit, I'm more pissed off at your crap company right now than I was when this actually happened. Dude...you are one giant cess pool of excuses, misdirection, and spin. You really should be in politics instead of trying to prop up a company with a history of CRAP customer service.

Here's a screen shot from the email. DOES THIS LOOK LIKE AN OMISSION? Looks like it BLATANTLY states that you're selling one item then you are switching it for a different item. The complete lack of communication told me a whole lot. Hiding from screw ups does not eliminate the screw ups. Somebody caught it after all my emails because it got changed on the web site the next day.

I had let this all go, I managed to use it all so no damage done. But calling it an inconvenience IS ******** AND YOU KNOW IT.

Diversification is simply a way to ensure that we continue to grow so we can be here next year and the year after to serve the industry.
Diversification is a way to make sure you've got a whole new set of customers to run off.

[The Sign Dude]

maybe GM should diversify and start selling directly to the general public. im sure if they offered the same pricing to the general public that they do to all their dealerships they would be able to increase sales by a ton.

[Techman]

We do not sell signs and banners and we don't do wholesale printing.

No but you sell the supplies to OUR customers allowing them to make Their stuff with out us.. And that in itself is shifting our dinner to your table. Increasing sales is good.
Increasing sales by closing the back door so existing clients stay is better. Increasing new sign ups only to have old sign ups leave is a flat line and that is BAD...

[HP5000ps]

No but you sell the supplies to OUR customers allowing them to make Their stuff with out us..

There might be a solution...find a better customer.

[John L]

I'm really sorry to hear about the problems but I have been a customer of Grayson off and on, for a long time now. I think I started out with them by buying Flexi 1.2 and a $3600 color scanner.. haha.

Just for the record... Overall they have done me pretty good. I can still call with quick questions, tech support for equipment well beyond their support agreement with me and I have always been well taken care of.

The few problems we have had with material orders over the years were also mended very quickly. I would call, ask for management and just ask to work it out.

[sarge]

Pat .. what your mentioned is exactly what happened to me .. i own a 24" vinyl express plotter that i will not use .. screw em .. it has less then 4 hours on it .. it came with a stand .. the stand was all bent to sh^t and all i got was .. mail it back (my expence) and if we think it is our fault we will ship you a new one (at my expence) .. they didnt have another item i ordered so they charged me for the more expensive item and shipped a lesser grade item and told me i could have the difference in product .. if i still didnt want this item .. ship it back and they will credit me for the item in product .. but would not give my money back .. i hope their company fails .. and if it does it is because of customer service

[sarge]

John .. is grayson a sign supplier .. i tried to google them .. but no luck

[futuredcon]

Message to all you whingers, It is very simple Don't use SW for your supplies.
I think you may find your day go a lot smoother if you use another vendor that you will be happy with and therefore you can spend less time doing your favorite passtime....Venting on 101.

[Graphics2u]

There might be a solution...find a better customer.
Exactly! There will always be people out there who want to buy a used plotter off ebay and make their own decals and banners for their own companies. But those people are few and far between. If they did do this then they were obviously not happy with some aspect of their current way of obtaining signs or banners. It may have been service, quality, turnaround time or maybe they're just cheap. Those are not the kind of people we should be worried about anyway.
To blame Signwarehouse or any other supplier for selling to someone like that is not fair. If a person calls them and they have the equipment to cut vinyl or are interested in buying equipment to cut vinyl or print signs they have every right to sell to them. There should not be a screening process that they go through to find out who they are currently purchasing signs from and are they going to get mad if I sell to them. Some one comes into my shop I try to sell to them.

Pat- I agree that if you purchased the vinyl under the impression that it was 50 yard rolls you probably feel ripped off. However if you purchased it for a price that was a good deal for a 10 yard roll and was expecting to get 50 yards, then you should have realized that it was a too good to be true deal. It was a Type-O, it happens. Could you have sent the remainder of what your employee didn't use back? If you couldn't get any calls returned then that's a problem.

[Graphics2u]

John .. is grayson a sign supplier .. i tried to google them .. but no luck
Grayson is the G of GBC Signwarehouse. For those that have been around awhile that's what Signwarehouse was first known as. Think it was Grayson Business Computers but don't quote me on that.

[Snappy]

CAUTION: LONG anti-SW STORY AHEAD...

I would never recommend SW to anyone. I had a Vinyl Express 52" vinyl cutter that I purchased from SW. I used and it did very well for about 5 years until it crapped out....

At that point, I called SW Techs to see if it would be worth fixing or if I should just trash it and buy another one and the tech said "Oh, it's definitely worth fixing. The errors you're having are because the main board has gone out.... a new main board will definitely fix it... they are around $600. Very easy swap"

Well, since he seemed to be 100% that a main board would fix it, I ordered one. Installed it carefully and correctly according to the instructions, and guess what, it didn't work.... well, after many emails and messages and non-returned calls, I finally get Tech Support back on the phone. "We don't have a clue..... package it up and send it in and we'll take a look."

At this point, I'm already regretting having been talked into repairing it, but decide I have $600 invested, might as well see if they can fix it. I box it up and send it in with a note explaining the situation.... another $125.

A month passes and I don't hear anything, so I start the attempts at reaching Tech Support again. Talk to a tech a couple of times, and they have no clue.... "Your machine is not being worked on, we don't know where it is..." Finally I get the tech manager who informs me it is off to the side with a bunch of stuff, "Because I did not get an RMA.... what's more, you didn't send it in the original box, so when we send it back, there will be no warranty on any work we do." Not at all nice about it either. WTF! They never told me anything about an RMA. It was out of warranty... 5 years old.... I'm going to have the original box? I put all my info in there with an explanation of the problems, and they are going to have an attitude about it??

Well, please sir, just do whatever you need to do, but get it in the queue to be looked at... another few weeks pass, I get them back on the phone. "The main board is out." WHAT? You just sent me a new one and I replaced it.... can't be. "Oh.. did they tell you about replacing the stepper motors?", "No..", "Well, this is an older machine and in order for the new main board to work we have to put in newer motors...." "Ok, well, send me an estimate.."

I get the estimate. It's around $1,300 including a new main board.... I call back, "I just put in a new main board.." "Well, if that one's OK, we'll knock $600 off... we won't know that until we try it.... you might have damaged this one putting it in... there's no guarantees since we didn't install it..." Arrrgghhh.....

Ok, so far I have $725 invested... with them saying probably $1,300 or more to fix it. I'm sure they'll probably charge me another $250 to get it back. So I'll basically have $2,300 in it, and if it doesn't work the day I get it back, they are saying "Too bad, we don't care, because you didn't send it in your original box..."

But on the other hand, I could possible get by with $700 more + shipping and be back going.... I already have $725 in it... so I decide to have them fix it. I call them back and tell them to go ahead. Wait another month or so and call back in to check on it. "No, we're not working on it... you never paid any money yet." WHAT? Y'all don't even know how much it will be......

So they send over the estimate for $700 and say they don't know how much shipping will be... at this point, I'm so tired of trying to deal with them, I'm leary about sending more money and furthering this fiasco. So I put it off and put it off.... this took place about 3 years ago....

That's the last I've heard from them. I have never received a call or email FROM them about it all through this whole thing that took several months. Never a follow-up, "what have you decided." It always required me making a great effort to reach their tech support. I never vented to them, but their tech department was never nice on the phone..... always telling me how the problems were my fault. Well, it might be, but I'm very easy-going and usually have no problems working with someone, so I'm thinking it's 'THEM'.

So, I have no idea if they fixed my machine and sold it to someone else, threw it away, parted it out for their own use or what.

In my eyes, their customer service and tech support is VERY unprofessional.... they are definitely more on SELLING than they are on customer support. I would never buy another piece of equipment from them and have steered quite a few other people away from buying from them.

[Graphics2u]

I never vented to them, but their tech department was never nice on the phone..... always telling me how the problems were my fault. Well, it might be, .

So you just left your plotter there without venting to them, and 3 years later you bring it up? Man you are easy going! And welcome to Signs 101.

[MacDaddy]

"The few problems we have had with material orders over the years were also mended very quickly. I would call, ask for management and just ask to work it out."

Yep, that's usually the best way to get the results you desire... Ask for what you want. I agree with you...:supersmilie:

[Snappy]

So you just left your plotter there without venting to them, and 3 years later you bring it up? Man you are easy going! And welcome to Signs 101.


:thankyou: for the welcome.....

This is not the first time I've brought it up in the 3 years.... I've told plenty of other people who have asked about buying equipment from SW.

As far as the plotter, I didn't know what to do about it.... especially after I figured out I was gonna get hammered by them one way or another. The way the tech manager acted, I can promise you they would have claimed my main board was bad and I'd have ended up with over a $1,300 bill... and if it didn't work when I got it back, I was sho-nuff screwed without at least a non-DOA guarantee...

Also they would have charged me at least $200 to ship back a cutter that was no good unless fixed. It's so hard to get anyone (or was then) in their Tech Department, I gave up trying to discuss it with them. The whole dragged out ordeal was a frustrating event from start to finish. I just chalked it up as a learning experience, gingerly applied some salve on my raw parts and moved on.

They probably fixed the thing with $100 worth of used parts (and my newly purchased $600 main board) and sold it for $3,500, for all I know.

It might have cost me $725 and my cutter, but I can guarantee I've cost them many times that amount in lost business by talking people out of buying equipment from them...

[907customs]

Am I the only one who has had good dealings with SW? I have been using them almost exclusively for the last 5 years. There is only one local supplier (150 miles away) here in AK, and he sells only Avery vinyl which I havn't had good luck with. In those 5 years, and $60k+ worth of purchases, I can only think of a time or two that I wasn't completely happy with my orders, and those 1 or two things were very minor. I have noticed a fairly high turnover rate lately however, and I do miss a couple of quality sales folks, but generally anyone that I get is ok. Living here in AK, shipping can be a killer for any business, and SW has made it easy on me, only requiring $300 to $400 minimums for cutting me a pretty good deal on shipping. Now, if there is better out there, I'm all ears... although I had a terrible first experience with Fellers, and really don't care to work with them due to shipping quote problems, and $1500 minimum orders for free shipping to AK.

[MacDaddy]

Am I the only one who has had good dealings with SW? I have been using them almost exclusively for the last 5 years. There is only one local supplier (150 miles away) here in AK, and he sells only Avery vinyl which I havn't had good luck with. In those 5 years, and $60k+ worth of purchases, I can only think of a time or two that I wasn't completely happy with my orders, and those 1 or two things were very minor. I have noticed a fairly high turnover rate lately however, and I do miss a couple of quality sales folks, but generally anyone that I get is ok. Living here in AK, shipping can be a killer for any business, and SW has made it easy on me, only requiring $300 to $400 minimums for cutting me a pretty good deal on shipping. Now, if there is better out there, I'm all ears... although I had a terrible first experience with Fellers, and really don't care to work with them due to shipping quote problems, and $1500 minimum orders for free shipping to AK.

That just about mirrors my experiences, nothing bad comes to mind.:rock-n-roll:

[cdiesel]

Jerry, look at it like this:
One of our local suppliers (who have actually grown to become very good friends of ours) hosted a flurry of wrap classes in the past couple of years. In one class, they wrapped one of their delivery trucks with a "start your own sign company" theme. As soon as they came by my shop to make a delivery with it, I told them that they weren't welcome back at our shop until that wrap was removed. When they asked why, I explained to them that I realize they are trying to sell more equipment and more media by attracting more people to the industry. At the same time, the guy in his garage (or car dealer) who buys a 30" Versacamm isn't going to buy a whole heck of a lot of media, and there's no guarantee he's going to buy from them. However, what little bit he does buy will eat into our sales, and the sales of the other larger more reputable shops around that CONTINUE to buy from them month after month, year after year. When the end user market gets diluted, the true industry professionals suffer.
Like was posted above about GM.. if they start selling directly to the public for dealer cost, they probably will sell a bunch of vehicles. What'll happen when something breaks though, and you've got to go to the factory to get something fixed? You think the dealer that got screwed is going to take care of the customer?

Not only that, but by even offering to sell equipment to end users, you cheapen the industry by making people think "anyone can do it". We don't buy much from SW anymore.. aside from the occasional roll we can't find anywhere else. Jerry, please pull our sales history and take a look-see.

[Techman]

cdiesal

great post,, thats about the gist of all of it is nt not? A market segment being ate up at our expense..

[ProWraps™]

is it me or am i stupid.. ehh.. wait dont answer that please. BUT! i did own a retail store. and i had to create accounts with my vendors. one that included much paper work, secured payment channels and adhere to certain rules. i had to submit valid documentation to prove my legitamacy as a retailer of their products, as well as a california issued resale license. they came out and visited my shop to prove my claims before i EVER got to order from them. THEN i had to place a HUGE order to open the account with EACH of them. so i ask this:

WHY DO WE WORK IN A FIELD WHERE THIS IS NOT EXPECTED OF OUR VENDORS?

an example is this. we install wraps for a national company. part of our income (as many of you that do the same know, the install rates are not glamerous), is the removal of the previous graphics. well the last install we did, the client called up fellers, ordered up the required removal tools and supplies and did it themselves.

ok no big deal. small beans yeah yah. well it lost us about $400. but that isnt was im concerned with. whats next? will they just buy a printer, a bunch of media and start printing their own, ultimately selling it and cutting into my biz?

i mean come on.

its funny how on this site so many complain about this errosion of our lively hood, yet NO ONE has asked WHY this business model that our vendors ethically SHOULD adhere to is NEVER brought up.

ps, sorry for the big letters. i just wanted to see what it would look like! heh. give an old man a little fun.

[MacDaddy]

Soooooo, Is it illegal for others to enter a world normally inhabited by others? If they are no good they will fail rather quickly... Be a pro, hang in there... These guys won't last long... They will spend alot of money on printers and such then sell for pennies on the dollar.... How do I know this? I service the machines after they are sold to folks who actually make money in this business...

[MacDaddy]

Really, we have nothing to fear....

[MacDaddy]

Oh, how does Fellers Certified differ from Oracal Certified? Just curious, I don't do wraps... I know what's his name ain't there anymore...

[sarge]

i brought this up on another thread and i was flamed hard by merchants on this forum .. SW doesnt have the market for poor customer service .. when i hear of bad vendors i stay away from them .. if more of us band together that is how you get even, boycot their business
in my town now 2 sign businesses have opened .. both bought into that deal where you pay for a bunch of t-shirt, mug and plotter deals and now they think they are sign makers .. it is funny .. both have come to my shop wanting a tour and asked me where i get my supplies .. i just tell them my insuance doesnt allow for pedestrians to be close to my equipment and dont let them in .. they are just like the newbies on here .. have no clue what to do or where to go .. they can get all the stuff they want .. but they dont know how to do what i know how to do .. sorry for getting long winded .. i know we all have our stories .. and i wonder just how many people here have those "all in 1 shop wonder deals" .. they may be good, but i am thinking not and most of it is just junk .. but suckers are born everyday

[CheapVehicleWrap]

Sign Warehouse (after 15+ years) has received the last of my money. 35k for a smashed printer (which was replaced and they made out like a bandit on insurance claim that was their fault to begin with), fired salespeople, many unanswered emails. Then they didn't want an order for several thousand more in supplies???.....I personally don't think they'll be around much longer. Good riddance.

[dirttoo]

I have bought from SW since 1999 with absolutely NO problems. I even emailed tech support yesterday on my 11 year old machine and got an answer within 1 hour. Would I buy from them again? Probably

[bjones]

Sign warehouse sucks. Bad customer service, bait and switch tactics etc etc. Nothing but excuses never action. BAH.

Some of the examples given earlier are almost laughably stupid.. selling paint protection to sign companies instead of car dealers?? hello.. car dealers have been subbing that work to sign companies forever not doing it themselves!

Government agencies? same thing!

rinse wash repeat.

Amazing how many short term stupid decisions some companies make in the name of survival that ultimately just shorten their own lifespan when things turn better and people take their business elsewhere. Good luck supporting something the size of SW with Cricut and Car dealers.

[mosignman]

We bought a 52" plotter from them many years ago and it never worked correctly out of the box. It had a tracking issue that the tech support (when I did finally get through to them) proceeded to tell me that it was operator error and I just needed to figure out how to work it. They told me that I should start cutting sheets off the rolls for whatever size of lettering that was to be cut (like cut 9' off of the roll if I'm cutting an 8' graphic), didn't work. I told them that I was doing everything properly to cut on that machine (loading the vinyl straight, etc.) and they basically told me that I was not. I asked to speak with the "manager" and explained the situation and he pretty muched told me the same thing. Now, I ran a 24" Roland friction fed plotter for 6 years prior to buying that junk Panther machine and I could get that tracking straight on 50'+ runs. That piece of crap that SW sold me I could not even cut a 4'x8' rectangle because the start point and end point would never line up.

After some heated phone conversation they told me that I needed to send it off, my cost, to have it looked at. I sent it off then finally heard back from them after about two weeks. They told me everything checked out just fine and they were going to send it back to me (my cost). I told them don't even think about it without some kind of proof of it running properly. I received a video of the machine running a couple of days later. It showed the vinyl feeding ONE direction the whole length of a 50yd roll of vinyl off the spool. I got the "manager" again on the phone and asked him very directly "what kind of idiot do you think I am?" of course it runs straight in one direction being that the vinyl roll was held by the core on it's spool holder. When I told him that i wanted a video of it cutting 3"x20' stripes the full width of the vinyl he would not agree to and said they did everything to check it out properly.

After all was said and done they would not agree to giving me any money back and I definitely did not want their plotter so I ended up upgrading to a Graphtec that I had to buy from them. To date, no problems with the Graphtec and no more problems with SW...............I just don't buy from them anymore or ever again. I just chalked that experience up to buying an inferior machine from an inferior supplier and my stupidity for not going with a good brand in the first place.

[Stealth Ryder]

Panther vs Graphtec, not a legitimate comparison. Of course the Graphtec will prove to be a better machine.

[punisher129]

after reading this im really thinking of just staying with fellers . i was looking at growing my company and buying some new equipment the quote i had from fellers was 35k the one from SW is only 30k . but with all these horror stories of SW i think i just pay the extra 5k

[Fred Weiss]

I know nothing of any of the horror stories or the good ones appearing at times. I do know that SW has brought in a few outstanding people in the last two or three years to correct or improve on where they may have come up short in the past.

[mark in tx]

My only suggestion in dealing with Sign Wharehouse problems, if you want something fixed you have to get the branch manager on the phone.

The salespeople cannot or will not fix problems, customer service is confused at best by the bad info they get from the sales people.

Get the higher ups involved.

[Vital Designs]

In my opinion they do not stand behind their product. I have a $20k boat anchor in the corner of my shop to prove it.

[rambo555]

I used to support SW with what I thought was a good amount of business. They have some good support people but their sales people are often "tacky" at best. Their front desk reception is awful. Not sure if they ever resolved an issue I had with them a month or so back with they way the front desk responded to calls. I spoke to a manager in Kentucy about that one. He was professional and at least listended to me.

What I hated most about SW was the fact they they made it difficult for me to do business. I once had a sales person that made me feel wanted, now I get bounced around and don't get replies to my emails. When I bring up an issue, excuses are what I receive. I buy from Fellers most of the time as they give me free shipping and discounted prices. At SW, you have to beg for it and even then you might get denied. I sure miss the great sales guy I had at SW 2 years ago!

[competition graphics]

I too used to buy from SW and haven't for almost 2 yrs. I've been in biz for almost 15 yrs and close to every piece of vinyl and all of my equipment and software I have ever used has come from either Earl Mich in Chicago or Advantage. My guy from Advantage (Brian Konya) has always been around when I had a question, he stops by when he's in the neighborhood and has usually sent christmas cards. I get heat press stuff from EMC along with some other small stuff and have ordered corplast from Midwest sign in Milw and all of them have always been right on the ball with price, shipping and service. If I can't get what I need for the right price and perfect service from the ones I have dealt with for this long I probably don't need it. Thanks to you guys for doin' business the way you do!

[1leonchen]

:popcorn:

[surf city]

I had an experience from SW similar to what Snappy had. It was a pita. And I only used the cutter approx 20 times. I haven't and will not buy from SW again and I do let people know that. I'm an american I was raised to always put forth your best effort even if you might be at fault man up and make it right. Yeah not so much anymore and it's sad.

[Jim Doggett]

I had an experience from SW similar to what Snappy had. It was a pita. And I only used the cutter approx 20 times. I haven't and will not buy from SW again and I do let people know that. I'm an american I was raised to always put forth your best effort even if you might be at fault man up and make it right. Yeah not so much anymore and it's sad.

Hi Surf City,

Which cutter did you get? If it's giving you trouble I can put our support folks in-touch. I assume it's under warranty, yes?

Thanks, and I'm sorry you're unhappy.

Jim

[Jim Doggett]

My only suggestion in dealing with Sign Wharehouse problems, if you want something fixed you have to get the branch manager on the phone.

The salespeople cannot or will not fix problems, customer service is confused at best by the bad info they get from the sales people.

Get the higher ups involved.

Hi Mark,

That's true. And thank you for jumping in.

We have a support staff that are best for resolving issues. And me. So please come down on us if we deserve it. This is a great place to do that. But then contact me. I'll get to the bottom of what's going on and bring the right people to bear on the subject.

Best Regards,

Jim
jim@go2bk.com private email
940.641.6770 mobile phone

[B Snyder]

Hi Surf City,

Which cutter did you get? If it's giving you trouble I can put our support folks in-touch. I assume it's under warranty, yes?

Thanks, and I'm sorry you're unhappy.

Jim



I see you're back with SW. Is Yellotools USA defunct?

[Jim Doggett]

I see you're back with SW. Is Yellotools USA defunct?

No; Yellotools is still very much in business. I just like SignWarehouse more. We even sell a Yellotools product: SpeedClips ( http://www.signwarehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?11-NEW!-SpeedClip-Media-Roll-Fasteners )

But I'm an equipment guy, mostly, having been for over 15 years. It's a better fit, and truly, SW is a great company, despite problems mentioned here (which I hope to help resolve, given the chance).

We're big, and don't always do things right. Heck; we can even screw up royally. But, honestly, we try real hard, while fulfilling hundreds of orders every day. And we're available to help with issues, 7 days a week.

So I'm proud to be a part of SW.

Best,

Jim

[B Snyder]

Cool. Good to know. Yellotools US site isn't working. I'd definitely buy more from YT. SW, not so much. :)

[Jim Doggett]

Cool. Good to know. Yellotools US site isn't working. I'd definitely buy more from YT. SW, not so much. :)

I think they're revamping it, last I heard. You can email them at info@yellotools.com.

Or maybe give us shot at redeeming ourselves :^) We have SpeedClips, by Yellotools ... and a working Web site (kidding; I'm sure they'll have it up soon.)

All my best,

Jim

[777signs]

Last night I was cutting graphics for a racecar, and realized I was short on vinyl. SW site says they are open until 11. I called at 8 and could not get through, several times. I customer came over and we went to look at the car, I called again at 9, and someone answered, got my order in, and it shipped today. No big deal. During all this, I e-mailed my normal sales guy, and asked him to call when he got in. I was on my way out the door for work this morning and he called me. Told him I had it taken care of. I did have a problem with my new Q24 last night, and got on tech support site, and someone answered, but the problem fixed itself, so I did not need them. One thing I like about them, is they always have what I need. I use 2 local places in Houston when I need something in a hurry, but SW has better prices and always has it in stock. Plus, they give me free shipping on most of my orders. I do need to call them about a tech issue on my machine, but I will take care of it once things settle down with work.

[Idea Design]

My advice with SW and the horror stories about their sales people is this: find one that you like, get that person's extension, and only deal with them. I've been very satisfied with the dealings I've had with SW. The first sales person I had was named Caron Yarborough. She was the sweetest thing around. I would send her pictures of the jobs I was doing, she would tell me about her life, like we were friends. Never had anything go bad. Then I called to place and order one day and she was just gone. I still don't know what happened to her (Caron if you're reading this, I miss you) but the girl who took over her accounts is fantastic just the same.

I don't know how SW feels about us pimping their people, but I'm sure far better than us slamming their people.

If you need a good salesperson at SW, call Amber Hicks at extension 2076.

The last time I had a tech question about my printer, I got on the live online chat, was informed that that is now a pay-to-play service by the guy on the other end so I decided to try and work it out on my own. He informed my that I could request information my email for free. I figured it couldn't hurt, maybe I'd get an answer, maybe I wouldn't, but it couldn't hurt either way.

I sent an email immediately after ending the chat conference with the guy, and about 4 minutes later, I had a detailed email full of instructions with the answer to my question from THE SAME GUY I was just chatting with. So, not only did he save me some dollars by offering the email ticket advice, he personally answered my email after.

I like SW. I've never had any bad experiences with them. Maybe I should feel lucky, but I really don't think so. They are a decent company, they are just larger than life, and with any big company, mistakes are bound to be made. Percentage of bad to good, tho, I bet they are way ahead with the good.

This just happens to be a place where there's a major concentration of their clientele who, just like the real world, are more likely to spread bad news than good news.

There's been studies on how much faster bad news spreads than good news. I just had a conversation about this the other day.

Don't forget, call Amber.

[CheapVehicleWrap]

That's one of their problems. They "loose" their salespeople for one reason or another. I've had them try to hide this fact.

If you haven't had trouble, you will. They were my main supplier for nearly 15 years. Only when I spent 30k+ dollars on equipment did I have REAL problems with them. Problems they could have easily resolved, and actually made money off of in the short run. I'd be better off burning my money.

[Stealth Ryder]

My advice with SW and the horror stories about their sales people is this: find one that you like, get that person's extension, and only deal with them. I've been very satisfied with the dealings I've had with SW. The first sales person I had was named Caron Yarborough. She was the sweetest thing around. I would send her pictures of the jobs I was doing, she would tell me about her life, like we were friends. Never had anything go bad. Then I called to place and order one day and she was just gone. I still don't know what happened to her (Caron if you're reading this, I miss you) but the girl who took over her accounts is fantastic just the same.

I don't know how SW feels about us pimping their people, but I'm sure far better than us slamming their people.

If you need a good salesperson at SW, call Amber Hicks at extension 2076.

The last time I had a tech question about my printer, I got on the live online chat, was informed that that is now a pay-to-play service by the guy on the other end so I decided to try and work it out on my own. He informed my that I could request information my email for free. I figured it couldn't hurt, maybe I'd get an answer, maybe I wouldn't, but it couldn't hurt either way.

I sent an email immediately after ending the chat conference with the guy, and about 4 minutes later, I had a detailed email full of instructions with the answer to my question from THE SAME GUY I was just chatting with. So, not only did he save me some dollars by offering the email ticket advice, he personally answered my email after.

I like SW. I've never had any bad experiences with them. Maybe I should feel lucky, but I really don't think so. They are a decent company, they are just larger than life, and with any big company, mistakes are bound to be made. Percentage of bad to good, tho, I bet they are way ahead with the good.

This just happens to be a place where there's a major concentration of their clientele who, just like the real world, are more likely to spread bad news than good news.

There's been studies on how much faster bad news spreads than good news. I just had a conversation about this the other day.

Don't forget, call Amber.

I agree, they are always there to help when needed...

[CheapVehicleWrap]

Most here wouldn't buy a 1614 with NO support whatsover! I did. And I bought it from SWH. Never again. But I like my printer, laminator and plotter. There's more support here then they could ever provide.

[kstompaint]

after reading this im really thinking of just staying with fellers . i was looking at growing my company and buying some new equipment the quote i had from fellers was 35k the one from SW is only 30k . but with all these horror stories of SW i think i just pay the extra 5k
Fellers will deal with you. They may not match price exactly, but what ever extra you pay will be worth it. Their tech support is absolutely the best in the industry, they talked to me at 10 p.m. on a Saturday because I needed tech help. Our sales rep doesn't come around much but he's there when we need him. We had some problems with our printer. The problems began under warranty and the manufacturer only limped it out of warranty. Fellers stepped up and handled the problem for me, even when they weren't obligated to do so.

It's been about 8 years since I've dealt with SW and there are reasons for that. There was absolutely no personal service. Even the people taking my order or quoting me prices seemed annoyed to be bothered with it. 2 years ago in my equipment search, I called them but I got the same attitude and it reminded me why I quit calling.

[Idea Design]

...There's more support here then they could ever provide.

That is something that I will agree with. Referring to my story of the online chat above (where the guy answered my email shortly thereafter), I came on here between the time I sent that mail and received the reply, and my man Stealth Ryder was here to help.

He posted the exact contents of the email I received from SW. I don't know who Stealth Ryder is or where he works, but he's got a fan in me.

All of the Mutoh techs that frequent these boards are of tremendous value. The ones I know of are Stealth Ryder, randya, and Compilla.

Bravo.

[Stealth Ryder]

Thanks for the compliment Cody, it is appreciated... Any documentation I send would have been taken from a Service Manual. We are all here to help, we just kinda lurk in the shadows waiting until one of our friends need a helping hand. Thanks again, it is comments like yours who make it all worthwhile...

[ProWraps]

sign whorehouse is good for one thing in our book. cheap service, and cheap products.

we grind them so far into the ground i almost feel bad doing it... almost. but we know what we are getting. and we know what we are not.

you buy a printer from fellers, you get a TON of media samples. you get some guy that flys to your shop and sets up the printer (although, we had to tell him how to do it correctly). and you pay a bit more especially since they have a california facility so tax is an issue.

with sign whorehouse, you may get the media samples you were promised. that is after you call and wonder why you never got them. they will be a few tiny rolls of oracal. you wont get anyone to set your printer up. you may be able to log on to their website and see a nifty video. but because either they are hurting so bad, or they just like selling stuff cheap, you can grind their prices so low its fun. and because they are in texas, no sales tax (at least for us in california).

i was able to grind them down to $12,999 TO OUR DOOR for a 1304. thats the printer, take up, ink carts, cross over cable, cleaning carts, and some media samples we never got. oh and they even threw in a liftgate on the free shipping which we didnt use anyways.

we bought one from fellers a few months before. all the same junk, but a TON of media samples (it litteraly was redic how much sh*t they sent us), but we payed several thousand more, and paid sales tax.

an old man told me once when i was very young:
"Chris, different people are good for different things".

sign whorehouse is no different. none of your vendors are. they are all just good for different things.

[kstompaint]

ProWraps- What you said all sounds accurate. I'm sure that I could have bought my equipment for a little less from SW, but Fellers did negotiate with me. Our first 1604 had a TON of problems and Mutoh didn't do much but limp the thing through the warranty. After that, it had more (worse) problems. The machine was obviously a lemon. Mutoh's solution was for me to spend $3k to extend the warranty. That would have been acceptable if the damn thing had worked properly for more than 2 months in the original warranty... but it didn't. Eventually, Fellers said they would just send me a new one and fight it out with Mutoh themselves. I got a brand new 1614 WITH a 2 year warranty and a tech to swap them out. This was above and beyond, but you have no idea how much grief that first machine caused us, I think Fellers truely felt bad about it. There were many times that I was calling the techs on their cell phones late at night and on weekends, they were more hospitable in those situations than the SW people were when I was calling for a price on $30k+ worth of equipment. When the printer was down, I uploaded Fellers my files, they printed and sent them over night to me so that I didn't lose jobs.

Bottom line... I'm sure I paid a little more for my stuff from Fellers. I tell my customers all the time "My prices are reasonable. I'm NOT the cheapest guy in town. If you want his number I will give it to you. You'll get what you pay for and then you'll be paying me to remove and replace it next year." The same theory holds true here, in my opinion.

[Farmboy]

I don't deal with SW but I do get e-mails from them. In upstate NY I like to deal with N.Glantz, Grant Graphics and Beacon. All have always been good to me.

[Just Another Sign Guy]

Thanks for the compliment Cody, it is appreciated... Any documentation I send would have been taken from a Service Manual. We are all here to help, we just kinda lurk in the shadows waiting until one of our friends need a helping hand. Thanks again, it is comments like yours who make it all worthwhile...

Great attitude and disposition. Thanks for being a part of this forum.

[yellousa]

Hi B,
My Name is CeCe, Yellotools USA. Glad to hear you love our products. Please feel free to contact me with anything i can do.

[surf city]

So, I did email SW about my dilema with SW on 3/2/10 and it's been a few days since I sent it. Today is 3/10/10. You would think that someone would have contacted me and said "hey were are very, very sorry for your dealings with SW" at the least. And then maybe a "hey what can we do to get you back as a customer" type of thing. I think that might have renewed my faith a little in SW and I might possibly have tried them again but, hey I got nothing. So in my opinion, I guess SW doesn't really care about there reputation or the customer. It's really sad. Just my thoughts.

[stickygraphics12]

When I was in te market for a printer, I talked to them 3 times to send me a catalog and never received one. I don't understand why it was so hard to send me a catalog? Needless to say I am glad I didn't go with them b/c everyone at Beacon from customer service, tech support, to the guy who comes to my shop and does maintenance on my printer are professional and great to talk to.