Too many sign shops!!

[Creative_Lance]

I am not exaggerating but i just realized that in my small town and specifically in 1 mile radius there are 11 sign shops that i know of!! 6 of them are just a few blocks away from my shop, they opened one after the other over the last 1-2 years. It is either they are not too smart or simply the sign business has become the easiest trade in the world all of a sudden!
No wonder we are busy lately :smile:

[sarge]

just in the last 5 months or so there has been 4 new sign businesses open up with -in a couple of miles from here .. my wife says competition is good and she enjoyes the challenge .. all four have been here and want to look around at what i have .. i say no .. they want my help .. i say no unless they pay me .. they want to know what software i use .. i say sometimes publisher (only when i get it as a file) .. one guy got pissed .. they all want to know how i get my customers .. as long as you have free enterprise there is nothing you can do, but hitch up your britches and hustle a little harder .. i enjoy going to home shows and i swear the last 8 or 9 have had these guys that you can buy a sign business like a shopsmith .. then those guys all want someone to spoon feed them ..

[Gene@mpls]

Take a look at the New Member Welcome forum- are you sure you are not
helping them without knowing it?:rolleyes:

[Creative_Lance]

:omg:Take a look at the New Member Welcome forum- are you sure you are not
helping them without knowing it?:rolleyes:

[Rick]

I just checked and there are 30 shops in my area that show up on Google, add the home based and those who do not show up, and there might be 45-50. Half of them are making signs as a secondary service to their main specialty. There is no way this area can support that many sign shops. Good thing I don't have to compete with them. I'm sure it's cut throat.

[ncpdfsb]

how many franchised? sign-o and such? here in ny they come and go within 12-18 months. i think its the franchise fees and lack of experience... not saying their all bad but its like walking into a fedx-kinkos.

[luggnut]

i'm amazed that our small town has 4 sign shops. i had tried being in biz here 10years ago and there was only one other shop. i failed because i was in a rock band at the time and didn't put enough effort in.

[jiarby]

am not exaggerating but i just realized that in my small town and specifically in 1 mile radius there are 11 sign shops that i know of!! 6 of them are just a few blocks away from my shop,

Maybe they just have a $500 plotter, and need to buy prints (from you!). Find out what they don't do that you DO... and sell it to them!

There is alot more to having a sign shop then cutting stickers for coro. (but those guys all THINK they have a sign shop)
Do they do pan/channel, monument, carved, post & panel, screened, neon, led, wraps, engraved, ada, wayfinding, etc...??

Find out what they do and fill the gaps.

[Creative_Lance]

Maybe they just have a $500 plotter, and need to buy prints (from you!). Find out what they don't do that you DO... and sell it to them!

There is alot more to having a sign shop then cutting stickers for coro. (but those guys all THINK they have a sign shop)
Do they do pan/channel, monument, carved, post & panel, screened, neon, led, wraps, engraved, ada, wayfinding, etc...??

Find out what they do and fill the gaps.
I see what you are saying but for some reason i feel funny when dealing with the competitors, i always have this feeling that they have something up their sleeves and are out to hurt my business!
i could be wrong too.
My sign supply delivery guy spreading the news voluntarily without asking him anything and i'm not sure if i want to deal with them and quite frankly i don't feel comfortable at all having any of them at my shop getting ideas, stealing my employees or God knows what else!

[luggnut]

I was thinking of offering my services to some local shops...

but on another thread, it was pointed out how i could be possibly training my competition. so i haven't done it . but the only thing i really have to offer that the local shops don't is certain skills like wraps or design.. i don't do electrical or channel letters and stuff in house.

[igneous]

^ funny you'd say that

i sat down yesterday and wrote a long and informative blog post to submit to a local NC business networking site. before posted it i realized what a great little (but invaluable) lesson it was for any new sign maker. i quickly decided not to post it. i've definitely been more conscious of my competition ever since i saw my web-addy posted on the us cutter forum-

[Mark L]

We have 3 in the same complex thanks to our landlord. We were the first one and then he added another. The print shop decided to start doing signs also. Drive along our busy street and you see 3 sign shops with in 7 units.
I did notice on Friday the print shop closed his doors though so we are down to 2.
Its so fustrating we'll have a customer ask for a price on a vehicle wrap then leave our shop and walk down 4 units and ask the 2nd shop for a quote also...

[high impact]

We have 3 in the same complex thanks to our landlord. We were the first one and then he added another. The print shop decided to start doing signs also. Drive along our busy street and you see 3 sign shops with in 7 units.
I did notice on Friday the print shop closed his doors though so we are down to 2.
Its so fustrating we'll have a customer ask for a price on a vehicle wrap then leave our shop and walk down 4 units and ask the 2nd shop for a quote also...

OUCH

You have a lousy landlord AND attorney!

That missing non-compete language should have been caught in the lease. You DID have your attorney look over your lease before you signed it I assume???
:Oops:

[Pat Whatley]

My little town of 3000 has six of them.

[southside signmaker]

We have many sign shops within a 5 mile radius. Within the last 6 months four of these strip mall type shops have shut their doors. Last week I changed out a sign face on one of the four, this is a tough time for many in our area...Rents are high and expenses are up, without a nitch, it can be tough to survive, especially at 20sq.foot rent and 6-7% franchise fees.

[southside signmaker]

Hey Pat,
I thought Montgomery Al was a bit larger than 3,000 people.

[steve b]

Time for some of you to get in on the supply side of the trade!

steveb

[Pat Whatley]

Hey Pat,
I thought Montgomery Al was a bit larger than 3,000 people.
I live in Wetumpka in the meteor crater. I'm 15 miles north of Montgomery. My shops in Montgomery...it's got 45 other legit shops.

[coyote]

We have found that our customers want to use us because they trust us and know our quality. They know they can probably get it cheaper if they go to every shop in town. They pay us because they don't have time to shop around and they can't afford to get a bad product. Glad we don't have to deal with walk ins and shoppers.
C

[ProWraps™]

im in sacramento. we have sign shops in the HUNDREDS. and yet we are thriving. they might as well be burger joints. i dont care about the competition. why? because i provide a service that makes my customers happy and profitable. i work non stop to make sure they are getting the best that i can give. competition be damned.

[CMRGRAFIX]

Pat,
Isnt there an Indian casino in wetumpka?

[Westcoast Sign Guy]

I kid you not, in a 5 mile radius from where I am I can count 75 vinyl/banner/wrap type shops. I'm glad I don't compete in this market, for every single shop that goes out of business about 1.75 shops takes it's place.

[ProWraps™]

I kid you not, in a 5 mile radius from where I am I can count 75 vinyl/banner/wrap type shops. I'm glad I don't compete in this market, for every single shop that goes out of business about 1.75 shops takes it's place.

and they have 2.2 kids.

[onesource]

About the same here! I love the more technical end.I kid you not, in a 5 mile radius from where I am I can count 75 vinyl/banner/wrap type shops. I'm glad I don't compete in this market, for every single shop that goes out of business about 1.75 shops takes it's place.

[onesmf]

I think Jiarby had some great incite into this. Instead of focusing on "what are they after", focus on what is the opportunity in this for me. What is the big deal if they pick-up some pointers from you? If you are confident in your abilities and strive to be the best, no matter what, you will always come out head and shoulders above all the rest. A few pointers is not going launch a new sign shop to the forefront. Knowledge is one thing, application is entirely another. I'm not saying you share all of your trade secrets, however I am sure you have acquired some sales skills along the way that allow you to read people. If so, you should be able to separate the "dirt bags" from the good folks. Take some time to develope a symbiotic relationship. For example, they may want to focus solely on banners and simple projects, while your specialty may be permanent signage. You may have an uncommissioned sales person standing directly infront of you. So what if you don't take all of the credit, you just made some money making a sign for one of their customers. Besides, if they are a hack, they will be out of business in no time. Food for thought. Just another way to look at things. Make a great day for yourself.

[OldPaint]

WHAT YOU NEED TO OPEN A SIGN SHOP TODAY:
1. a computer
2. a plotter
3. or a printer & some company that leases their equipment to ANYONE
4. some ability to operate computer & some sorta CAD PROGRAM.
5. zero talent
6. THE LURE OF FAST EASY MONEY
7. NO TALENT
8. NO DESIGN OR ART SCHOOLING
9. NO PREVIOUS KNOWLEDGE OF HOW SIGNS ARE MADE
10.JUST LOWBALL EVERYBODY ELSE AND YOU'LL MAKE A MILLION)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
i hate to repeat what ive said many times
and ive seen this gettin worse all the time. IT AINT THE FACT that these people get into this business,
AND FAIL.......
its the fact that THEIR LOWBALLING.........creates a memory in the public, THAT WE WILL UNDERCUT ANYONE ELSE PRICE FOR PRODUCTS.....
this is what is hard to change.

[Jillbeans]

it's the fact that their lowballing creates a memory in the public, that "we will undercut anyone's price".....this is what is hard to change.

Excellent point, OP, although I had to edit it into something easily read. It's not so much the new shops, but their misunderstanding of how to price (and usually how to fabricate/design/install) which hurts established shops. Sign shops come and go, and the damage that new ones who lowball themselves out of business remains. Like the stench from a hard-boiled-egg **** which nobody will own up to. The public then sees the established shops as price gougers, because those shops charge what they actually should be charging. The public sees the cheap-*** shoddily made/installed signs and lettering and thinks we all do that. The public thinks we charge a premium for said bad signs.

I see new ones come and go every year. I try to just keep on keeping on, and not to fret. Because they do blow out about as frequently as they blew in. I have 5 within two miles of me. Four of them are specialized (monument, carved, sandblasted, printing) one is a total hack. Luckily I am also specialized so there is room for all of us. I can't find the hack's (comically bad) website any longer, so maybe they are gone with the wind.
Love....Jill
PS
Pat you live in a crater? A crater with a casino? Damn!

[Pat Whatley]

Pat,
Isnt there an Indian casino in wetumpka?

Kind of,,,it's a big "tent" looking thing right now. They're so confident they're getting gambling legalized, though, that they're beginning construcion on the monster sized gaming complex,

[Twowrist]

I read a comment by one of the VP's at HP who said "we hope to do to the sign business what Apple has done for the music industry." I immediately fired a letter to Ken Mergentine, the editor of the magazine it was in and asked him just what has Apple done for music? Besides promoting theft and piracy, facilitating bootleg production, cheapening the sound with lousy sample rates, and making sure that any brain dead mo-mo could produce their own media.

In the sign biz , just like in music, it ends up being the artists driving the industry that get screwed. The pikers and posers come along with no fresh ideas of their own and literally make a "fax" (a copy of lesser quality) of someone else's concepts and construction.

The good news is this; the signage that can't be easily reproduced by some automated cookie cutter will always be in demand, and of a quality that a buyer will appreciate. Let the cut and paste shops eat each other alive, and do what you do best...provide top quality signage and service they just can't compare to. Your reputations and wallets should remain somewhat intact.

[skyhigh]

WHAT YOU NEED TO OPEN A SIGN SHOP TODAY:
1. a computer
2. a plotter
3. or a printer & some company that leases their equipment to ANYONE
4. some ability to operate computer & some sorta CAD PROGRAM.
5. zero talent
6. THE LURE OF FAST EASY MONEY
7. NO TALENT
8. NO DESIGN OR ART SCHOOLING
9. NO PREVIOUS KNOWLEDGE OF HOW SIGNS ARE MADE
10.JUST LOWBALL EVERYBODY ELSE AND YOU'LL MAKE A MILLION)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
i hate to repeat what ive said many times
and ive seen this gettin worse all the time. IT AINT THE FACT that these people get into this business,
AND FAIL.......
its the fact that THEIR LOWBALLING.........creates a memory in the public, THAT WE WILL UNDERCUT ANYONE ELSE PRICE FOR PRODUCTS.....
.

good post OP.

Maybe some of these lowballing, zero talent scumbags should consider an easier profession?

WHAT YOU NEED TO OPEN A PIZZA SHOP TODAY...
1. an oven
2. pizza dough
3. sauce
4. toppings

Just some "food for thought" (no pun intended).

OP, a pisan like you, should make a pretty good pie. :thumb:

[petepaz]

we have about 15 in our area and half of them are franchise shops

[Poconopete]

good post OP.

Maybe some of these lowballing, zero talent scumbags should consider an easier profession?

WHAT YOU NEED TO OPEN A PIZZA SHOP TODAY...
1. an oven
2. pizza dough
3. sauce
4. toppings

Just some "food for thought" (no pun intended).

OP, a pisan like you, should make a pretty good pie. :thumb:

And you can get a desk top pizza oven for less then $90!
Does sauce come in different colors?

[Mikeifg]

We've got maybe 4-5 good shops which produce quality work. Then about 50+ that kill the industry not to mention the garage and basement dwellers.

[Gino]

When I started, there were about eight shops in the whole county. As of 15 years ago, there are 65 shops in my town alone, not counting the Spanish shops and other non-legit shops.

Back in the mid 80’s many of these fast sign shop franchises started up, but their knowledge of the industry was horrendous. This one guy actually would print a sign on paper, wrap it in saran wrap and glue it fast to a piece of treated lumber and consider that outdoor durable. He stayed in business for a few years, sold it to another dim-wit who eventually went under. That seemed to be the trend back then….. they’d open a franchise here or there and go out within two or three years. Problem is… they had no clue how to produce or price things. That was the real start of lowballing. Although they had a business plan or guide to follow… based on the franchise rules…. their standards were V E R Y low. It started a downward spin on small legit shops. Everyone started to compete with low prices to keep work coming in rather than sell service and quality. In my opinion, all of the franchises set the pace for cheapening the industry. It’s a level of doing business that still exists today.

Got to the point as more and more of these types kept opening there was more and more cheap competition, but when a customer goes to a sign shop that professes to be reputable…. they believe it. Why not ?? As customer after customer gets stung and their signs don’t last or friends make fun of their designs…. the burnt customer then goes out in search of another sign shop, but doesn’t have the trust any longer in the service and shops for price alone. Again, ‘built in’ disaster.

Anyway, this practice has been going on for a long time and now many of the new hacks, newbies and backyard mechanics are adopting the same business plan and mentality for making signs. Down, quick and dirty. Sure, you want to make a sign and get as much out of it as you can, but not at another persons’ expense.

What’s wrong with knowing what you’re doing before you prance around pretending you know what you’re doing ?? :rolleyes:

Setting up a shop, having a website and getting key phrases to appear professional is a very deceiving manner in which any business could/would operate.

If any of you are ‘Quick Sign Shops’ and I’ve misrepresented you…. well sorry, but the low standards sprouted from your kind. I had a guy working for us years ago, that actually turned a failing franchise around with what he added to that shop. He moved away and we still stay in contact. He asks me questions and for advice sometimes, but for the most part, we’re just good friends helping each other.

Yep, way too many shops around today….. and the part about it being healthy for competition……. well, it’s only good for competition if you are the same kinda shop. Otherwise, we don’t consider them competition but a nuisance.





.

[Doyle]

I guess I'm lucky, I'm the only one in town and within a 10 mile radius..... the whole county might have 10-15 sign shops, but we are in a pretty rural area

[Pat Whatley]

Don't forget OP that years ago all it took to be a sign painter was a can of cheap paint and a brush. I heard this same line of crap about new sign shops back when people were talking about how bad a lot of them hand lettered. There were just as many bad snappers as bad sticky vinyl people.

[OldPaint]

but pat, even the BAD SNAPPERS........had some level of ABILITY and UNDERSTANDING OF THE MARKET....
today, most who jump into this, DONT EVEN HAVE THAT. i see the crap some of these people do.......and most have somebody with money.........TO SET THEIR SORRY ARSES UP......in a business they know nothing about.....

[Billct2]

When I started lettering in the 70s (after a year of study at Butera Sign School and working part time before that for the local sign guy) there were several lousy sign painters that had no talent, two or three letter syles they could manage to get out, no sense of design, no overhead because they worked out of their car and charged half or less what others did.
There was one guy who was king of trucks, everyone thought he was great, I still hear people talk about how he didn't need to use a pattern or anything, just start bashing the door with his brush...well I knew every truck he did, because they were all the same damn design and color pallette.
The difference now is hacks can produce "computer perfect" letters and graphics, and there's a lot more of them.

[Gino]

Gotta keep things fair and in perspective.

I prided myself as being an accomplished [and fast] brush artist for pictorials, shocard and oil commercial signs and trucks, but I was far from the best. However, I saw some really bad looking signs produced by really bad sign painters over the years. It's just they weren't in any league of any sort. They didn't have computers to save their butts and they generally never grew bigger than a garage in some back alley. They basically were just off the brush hacks and were above using a mahl stick and talking 'shop' with others.

One of the guys locally here was a very small guy... almost a dwarf or midget..... or whatever the PC thing is to call him these days, but back then we all called him the little guy with a big head. Anyway, he needed to stand on a step to paint big banners and paper posters. His ability was just above '****' in the 'Poor' category. You could always tell someone's work by the layouts, color schemes and type faces being used. His was always a 'thick-thin' slash lettering. I don't think I ever saw a good sign by him.

Anyway, there were a few hacks back then without talent for lettering. They could probably draw a dog's head by tracing their thumb and thought they were artistic, but it took more than that to stay ahead of the pack.

Today, some of the computer people have hand drawing capabilities, but again, the proportionate numbers of sign painters back then compared to the so-called sign shops of today was far less. I would venture to say 9 out of 10 guys were really good at their trade. Today its more like about 2 or 3 out of 40 are good at their job.

Is there anything as good today as it was when any one of us were young[er] ?? Why does every generation always say.... in my day we had................ and it only cost............ ?? We had snow all winter long and today we only have snow showers. We always remember a few of the outstanding things of our lives and all of these new upcoming sign hacks will have similar stories and will exaggerate the same way.... the lies will get bigger and the ease of doing something will be lost in time.



.

[Pat White]

Gotta keep things fair and in perspective.
I prided myself as being an accomplished [and fast] brush artist for pictorials, shocard and oil commercial signs and trucks, but I was far from the best. However, I saw some really bad looking signs produced by really bad sign painters over the years. It's just they weren't in any league of any sort. They didn't have computers to save their butts and they generally never grew bigger than a garage in some back alley. They basically were just off the brush hacks and were above using a mahl stick and talking 'shop' with others.

One of the guys locally here was a very small guy... almost a dwarf or midget..... or whatever the PC thing is to call him these days, but back then we all called him the little guy with a big head. Anyway, he needed to stand on a step to paint big banners and paper posters. His ability was just above '****' in the 'Poor' category. You could always tell someone's work by the layouts, color schemes and type faces being used. His was always a 'thick-thin' slash lettering. I don't think I ever saw a good sign by him.

Anyway, there were a few hacks back then without talent for lettering. They could probably draw a dog's head by tracing their thumb and thought they were artistic, but it took more than that to stay ahead of the pack.

Today, some of the computer people have hand drawing capabilities, but again, the proportionate numbers of sign painters back then compared to the so-called sign shops of today was far less. I would venture to say 9 out of 10 guys were really good at their trade. Today its more like about 2 or 3 out of 40 are good at their job.

Is there anything as good today as it was when any one of us were young[er] ?? Why does every generation always say.... in my day we had................ and it only cost............ ?? We had snow all winter long and today we only have snow showers. We always remember a few of the outstanding things of our lives and all of these new upcoming sign hacks will have similar stories and will exaggerate the same way.... the lies will get bigger and the ease of doing something will be lost in time.



.
:goodpost: Gino! It's pretty interesting to hear about all these things.
Have you ever considered being a writer?? Not trying to be a smart a**, but your posts are always pretty elaborate and well thought out...

[imagep]

The print shop decided to start doing signs also.
I did notice on Friday the print shop closed his doors though so we are down to 2. ...

I think that we will be seeing a lot more offset printing companies getting into signs. Offset printing is a shrinking industry (probably why your neighbor closed shop), and those printers who are able to survive will be forced to expand their product line.

From the standpoint of an offset printer (which we have done for 20 years), sign equipment AND screen printing is dirt cheap and so many of the offset skills carry over to signage and/or screen printing that signs/screen printing makes for a realitively easy sideline.

We now have a sign department (digital printed and cut vinyl and screen printed), a textile screen printing department, an offset department, and an advertising specialties dept.

[Gino]

:goodpost: Gino! It's pretty interesting to hear about all these things.
Have you ever considered being a writer?? Not trying to be a smart a**, but your posts are always pretty elaborate and well thought out...



Nope.



.

[Billct2]

9 out of 10 guys were really good at their trade. Today its more like about 2 or 3 out of 40 are good at their job.
Good point, and from my experience seems accurate.
One field this has become very evident in is billboards, I'm amazed at the number of illegible billboards out there, when you think of the money involved you'd think the client would want their $2k/month ad to be readable. I was never a wall dog or bulletin painter, but most of those guys would put this new digital stuff to shame for effective advertising.

[btropical.com]

I have one I want to knock on his a$$ , rest i care less about . Hunting his big fish :-)

[Gino]

Good point, and from my experience seems accurate.
One field this has become very evident in is billboards, I'm amazed at the number of illegible billboards out there, when you think of the money involved you'd think the client would want their $2k/month ad to be readable. I was never a wall dog or bulletin painter, but most of those guys would put this new digital stuff to shame for effective advertising.


I’ve only a few billboards under my belt, but the thing that gets me in that department is…. not only about the crowded text, pictures and poorly executed effects, but these idiots that pay for LED digital billboards for next to NO EXPOSURE. These signs are sold on the way they light up and grab the driver’s attention. Yeah, the same drivers that we told years ago have about 2 to 3 seconds to look at your board without driving off the road. Main difference is that back then…. the drivers were driving, passing, putting on their make-up or eating this new thing called fast-food. Today… you have road rage drivers, make-up artists, eating entire of meals behind the wheel, text messaging, cell phones, kids in the back seat, not to mention jockeying for position at the ‘YEILD’ ramps and most of all..... the message changes about every 25 or 30 seconds. I see a message that I want to read sometimes and because of all the unnecessary copy, I can’t read it and by the time I get close enough…. it rolls over to the next piece of crappy artwork. Yep, there’s your advertising budget at work for you. You don’t get seen for another 4 minutes, so who is really making out ??

While talking about readership…. how about all the misspelled words on billboards and television these days. Has our language become that much harder to read & write that hardly any young person can write without making 38 mistakes in one simple sign ?? :doh:










.

[coyote]

I remember a local sign painter: he was like the old Model T: you could have your sign in any color as long as it was white, and any color lettering as long as it was red or black. He couldn't be bothered to stock all those cans of 1-Shot and didn't want to confuse his customers by offering them too many choices. He was always busy...
C

[OldPaint]

i was a kid of 10-12 when this "shaky jake" started hangin out at my parents BAR. guy lived in a 51-52 buick 4 door, was painted green 142L one shot, lettered with 134L chrome yellow and a lot of ALUMINUM paint. this was his home, shop, office. no kiddin. AND I WAS FASCINATED.........not how he lived but what he could do with a quill and couple cans of paint. seen him letter truck doors,windows with nothing more then a piece of chalk to lay a few reference lines or curves, and it was PAINTIN TIME. and paint he did. was a lot of different scripts, did a lot of the "tails" like on sports team logos. also he would paint the background......and leave the letters....and the looked like he painted them instead. he gave me my 1st set of quills. and i still have the utmost respect for this man...........and he has been gone a long time............how many of the "digital/vinyl only" people will leave a mark in this business?

[gbahue]

I have one I want to knock on his a$$ , Hunting his big fish :-)

Hey Tropical,

Thats how to do it. Takes a little bit longer to land the big fish but they provide more meals! :wink:

g

[FrankenSigns.biz]

Some 20 or so years ago, (before I was in the sign business), a friend came to me and asked me to suggest a business he could start. I thought about it and said, "you should start a sign business". A few days later we crossed paths again and I asked him what he thought of my suggestion. He said, "I looked in the yellow pages and decided there was WAY too much competition." I told him that the number of sign shops in the yellow pages was indicative that it was a lucrative trade and certainly no reason to forgo my suggestion. He didn't see it that way. Ironically, 20 years later, he manages a shop for me.

[Jon Aston]

You have a problem if, in the customer's mind, you are just one of many signshops - one of many places where they can buy basically the same thing: A sign is a sign...is a sign, right? In that scenario, price will inevitably play a disproportionately larger role in the buying decision.

If you don't create real value for customers in a way that your competitors can't, or won't, then I suggest you start thinking about how you can. What do your customers value? What do they want more than anything else?

I know it's a cliche, but it's a suitable one: Nobody ever bought a drill because they wanted a drill. What did they want? Holes. Nobody wants a sign either. Signs are the drill. How can you help them get what they really want?

You could start by knowing more about marketing than your competitors, and more about designing to help them get more of what they want. You could learn more about each customer's business than your competition - more about their business objectives and challenges, more about who their target market is, and what persuades them buy.

Here's a book that can help you with your problem, and with your customers' problems: Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind (http://www.amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Mind-Anniversary/dp/0071359168/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237254786&sr=8-1).

I know. The cover is butt ugly. Proof that you should never judge a book by its cover. Here's a pretty good summary (http://www.quickmba.com/marketing/ries-trout/positioning/).

[ToddM.]

Well I'm only 28 and haven't been in the business a fraction of the time as some of you, but here's a little tip from me...

You can really set yourself apart from the competition by taking extra time to make your customers feel special...When someone talks to me about a sign, I've been preparing several different layouts for them to pick from, even on the very simple jobs. They like having choices. Plus, I always throw a really spruced up design in there, which often leads to them spending more money than they planned.

Some of the sign guys around here just type up a plain jane layout in arial black and that's it.

[Jon Aston]

Well I'm only 28 and haven't been in the business a fraction of the time as some of you, but here's a little tip from me...

You can really set yourself apart from the competition by taking extra time to make your customers feel special...When someone talks to me about a sign, I've been preparing several different layouts for them to pick from, even on the very simple jobs. They like having choices. Plus, I always throw a really spruced up design in there, which often leads to them spending more money than they planned.

Some of the sign guys around here just type up a plain jane layout in arial black and that's it.

Dude! You're speaking my lingity! What you're doing is "experiential" branding...and it is a terrific way to nurture customer loyalty (the whole point of branding).

So... Think about how you might build your positioning strategy around what you're doing. I would also suggest thinking about how you can continuously improve on the experience you're providing - in order to maintain your competitive advantage.

:)

[anotherdog]

And it's likely to get worse before it gets better. With the sub 20k solvent printer and lots of newly unemployed people... "Darn it, I'm gonna open me a Sign Shop!"
and a whole demographic of people hitting the (I'm going to be my own boss) age.
At the same time you have this biting recession starving these baby sign businesses while they strip the land of food.
The answer is quality, of service and product. Keeping a loyal client base is the answer.
When someone tells me they wan't it cheaper because they have seen the price less elsewhere I let them go with one comment, "you buy your clothes at the cheapest you can find it too"?

[The Sign Dude]

Here's a book that can help you with your problem, and with your customers' problems: Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind (http://www.amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Mind-Anniversary/dp/0071359168/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237254786&sr=8-1).

I know. The cover is butt ugly. Proof that you should never judge a book by its cover. Here's a pretty good summary (http://www.quickmba.com/marketing/ries-trout/positioning/).

:goodpost:

[Gene@mpls]

1. lingity
a saucy twist on a way of speaking, another word for language or lingo
"Your lingity is so whack."

Jon- you are so progressive! Gene

[scarface]

There is about 5 sign shops within a 5 mile radius here. These are all small sign shops, then further away you have the dreaded fast signs which charge by the letter ect

[David Wright]

I thought scarface was going to say, "I'll bury those cockroaches!"

[btropical.com]

I thought scarface was going to say, "I'll bury those cockroaches!"


Funny :scream:

[OldPaint]

the worst one here, is someone WHO THINKS THEY CAN PAINT...........is doing dealership CAR WINDSHIELDS!!!!!!!!
i keep stopping in and askin the dealers if they know the person who is doin them.........I WANT TO TEACH HIM..............how to make them look GREAT!!!!
i am dun doin them..........dont wana do that any more.

[Ponto]

You have a problem if, in the customer's mind, you are just one of many signshops - one of many places where they can buy basically the same thing: A sign is a sign...is a sign, right? In that scenario, price will inevitably play a disproportionately larger role in the buying decision.

If you don't create real value for customers in a way that your competitors can't, or won't, then I suggest you start thinking about how you can. What do your customers value? What do they want more than anything else?

I know it's a cliche, but it's a suitable one: Nobody ever bought a drill because they wanted a drill. What did they want? Holes. Nobody wants a sign either. Signs are the drill. How can you help them get what they really want?

You could start by knowing more about marketing than your competitors, and more about designing to help them get more of what they want. You could learn more about each customer's business than your competition - more about their business objectives and challenges, more about who their target market is, and what persuades them buy.

Here's a book that can help you with your problem, and with your customers' problems: Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind (http://www.amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Mind-Anniversary/dp/0071359168/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237254786&sr=8-1).

I know. The cover is butt ugly. Proof that you should never judge a book by its cover. Here's a pretty good summary (http://www.quickmba.com/marketing/ries-trout/positioning/).


Well said...the "technician" mentality as opposed to the "entrepreneurial" one!!!

JP:toasting:

[AlexT]

Too many indeed... And the worst part is that they come up to my area and vandalize my advertising. Or they park their cars and put up banners in my area.

The sad truth is that many of them are mindless morons with a $300 plotter from eBay, who don't know one end of a computer from the other. There are even a few deuche bags with mobile operations... Yes you know who you are... stay away from my shop!

The sign business is not what it used to be. I started 15 years ago making good money, now a days we are just surviving, thanks to the real estate brokers turned sign guy.

But as they say knowledge is power, which is one thing we have going for us.

Hey maybe we should buy diplomas online and become lawyers?

[round man]

Just did a search on the talking yellow pages here and ended up with 24 pages with ten shops to a page and thats within a 50 mile radius of my zip code,.....and that is only the shops who paid to advertise there,...back in '78 when I first started out on my own after a couple years of doing the grunt work for a couple of old wall dogs,.there were only four shops in that same phone book and a computer filled a whole building and usually had a guard also,....We had to hand cut our decals after we hand lettered them,...they were looked down on in the trade as an inferior product alot like we look at magnetics today,...a cheap alternative to the "real" thing,....

[tomence]

Stop crying all of you. No one has a right to judge no one on opening a basement sign business or mobile sign business or whatever it is everyone has a right to try it. Same like truck drivers lets say i am a driver and then you come apply for the same job that i have now what i have to kill so i can survaive? Answer: NO there is job for both of us. Guys i am from chicago and this city is more than 10 mil ppl and god knows how many business. I mean there is tons of work but you have to find it, work doesnt come to you, you go after work and find it. I started out of my second room in my apartment and yes with only a 24" cutter then i grew into doing digital print banner, porster, signs, screen printing now own two automatics and one manual and another screen print flatbed, i mean from one room to a big place and let me tell you this I made more money when i was in that little room than now. So stop complaining and go find yourselfs work. I would rather cut my vinyl out of my house go install it and make clean, crispy fresh money without thinking of paying employers, rent, utilities, trash, so there it is thats my opinion wether you like or not.

[tomence]

Another thing i forgot to mention. Stop talking bad about the small guys, look at your merchant members here offering prices that are unbelivalble low why dont you say anything about that. I mean yeah its good for us but its bad because they started selling wholesale to the public now, i am not saying about the merchants here but in general. I used to sub my work to a very large sign shop close to me and was thinking yeah i got a good price and i can make double the money but just to my surprise they started offering their low prices to the general public. And lets be real the reallity is we all cut prices i know i see here ppl saying no i dont cut prices and stuff but to me thats a lie. Like somebody mention sells 12"x18 set of magnets for $90. Come one now i havent sold any at that price and i dont think i will ever get that price when down the street they make'em for less than $40.

[OldPaint]

tis a business of ILLUSION .............and most are
DELUSIONAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SignManiac]

Like somebody mention sells 12"x18 set of magnets for $90. Come one now i havent sold any at that price and i dont think i will ever get that price when down the street they make'em for less than $40.

You are your own worst enemy. I just delivered a pair of 10" x 22" mags yesterday for $125.00 Just because "you" can't sell them for that doesn't mean everyone else can't. As the great orator and statesmen D.Allen once said around the turn of the century, "You get what you settle for".

[kraigsnowden]

You are your own worst enemy. I just delivered a pair of 10" x 22" mags yesterday for $125.00 Just because "you" can't sell them for that doesn't mean everyone else can't. As the great orator and statesmen D.Allen once said around the turn of the century, "You get what you settle for".

I agree. Most people are doing them for nothing now, and online it's ridicules, but I still sell several a week at $90, and I'm not about to change that price.

[MachServTech]

When I walk into a shop I can tell weather they are operating in the black or not. This economy has been hard on all of us, but there have been thousands of shops that have been weeded out....thank goodness! You might think that I wouldn't care what shops come and go, but its actually scary for me to walk into a shop where the floors are dirty and the machine hasn't been maintained at all and cigarette dust covers everything. I think to myself, will this guy actually pay me for my services?
I would much rather maintain a relationship with sign shops that care about their equipment. Thats no accident, it reflects in everything they do.

No matter where you are in this industry, professionals are always more of a pleasure to deal with.

[Mosh]

Well our shop....never mind you guys already know what I am going to post.

[SignManiac]

Back on point to the original topic. It's a free country and everyone has the same right to go into the sign business just like you did, and yes the industry is over saturated with people in it, thanks to the computer and cheap plotters. You are not going to see that change. Get over it.

So what can you do about it? There's plenty you can do... But first, you need to set yourself apart from everyone else who is just selling a commodity. As long as you're selling the same crap that everyone else is, expect to compete on price alone, and low price will generally win in this day and age.

However, there's a lot more to this business than chopping out and selling vinyl letters by the pound. Customer service, the quality of your work, advertising value of your products, your talent and the diversity of your product line, all of these added up can make you better than your competition. If you're willing to excel in all of these areas and run your business the right way, you won't have to spend your time being pissed off or paranoid about every Joe Blow down the street selling his commodity. You have to stop worrying about what your competition charges and stop letting them set your prices. It's possible to get more money for your work, but not if you're selling the same garbage that the competition is putting out and selling for less.

I'm in a relatively small town. I've been here for eighteen years and have always stayed busy. I have a reputation for being expensive, one that I'm proud of. I've seen countless shops open up and close, all thinking they could make a killing if they undercut everyone's price. Eventually they price themselves "out of business". Working for nothing isn't much fun after a while.

So instead of whining and complaining about everyone else in the business, learn how to run your business successfully and be the exception. Yes it's harder to be in this business today, but that just means you have to work harder at it to be better than the other guy. What you invest in this business is directly related to what you will get out of it. And I'm not talking about investing in equipment either. There are more important things you should be investing in. Basic business fundamentals, your design skills, marketing, these are the important areas where you should invest most of your time and money. A tool is only as good as the person who knows how to use it. Crap work printed on a $30k printer still looks like crap.

Don't be one of those shops today that are systematically destroying our communities with their graphic pollution that litters this country. They should be ashamed of what they've done! Most here will never "get it" but maybe a few just might.

[Techman]

No, there is not too many sign shops.
There are too many sign shop owners who are not business persons. They are merely technicians owning their own job.
There are lots of them technicians posting on this thread right here.

I see two types. the whiners and the victors.

Signmaniac is a victor. He sells magnetics for a price that is worthy of his skills. But then you do not see his magnetics just three lines of type on a white background. They are artforms.

Another poster is a winner. He talks about the professional look.

Most others are the whiners spending time complaining instead of learning how to run a business model, and learning how to set a demographics. Whine, its just an excuse to make yourselves feel better about your lack of business skills. Complaining about not "getting that price here" is a sure sign of not knowing what to do about it.

We are our own worst enemy. We do no know what we do not know. We sit here at level one incompetence and blame. So here I am giving the whiners notice that there is a way to get a better level of work and income.

First. Quit blaming others for your problems.
Second. Go out and find the knowledge to build your own demographics and business model.
Third. do not look at who is around you. They do not matter. Look instead at how you can improve your marketing skills. Its that easy.

[MachServTech]

Another poser is a winner. He talks about the professional look.

excuse me?

[Pat Whatley]

No, there is not too many sign shops.
There are too many sign shop owners who are not business persons. They are merely technicians owning their own job.
There are lots of them technicians posting on this thread right here.


That's me. I've been fighting the "technician" battle since the day I bought the shop.

[Sticky Signs]

I'm diggin' this post. I have about 20 shops with a 10 block radius. I think some of you old timers have to change your point of view a little bit and here's why - Get to know the competition and share your "trade secrets". It's good for everybody.
When I was starting out, I met the guys who run a shop a block away from me. Super nice guys that really know their stuff and have a very successful business. This has really worked out great for all of us. For example, he calls me one day because his printer is down and needs something right away. No problem. I make a few quick bucks for helping him out. Another time his installer called in sick one day and needs some prints installed. More money in my pocket. On the flip side, they've also helped me out. They now have a flat bed printer which means I can sell "direct to substrate" and have them print it for me. saves me the labour of mounting vinyl on to the substrates. Plus, I 've learned lots of little tricks and techniques from these guys that really help make my job easier. Another great aspect is that we can bounce ideas off each other. We don't have any said "trade secrets". It's all on the table and it's great because we can learn from each other. why is this good? Because it's helps make us all better at what we do - making quality products at a fair price. Screw the low ballers because they'll screw themselves in the end. By communicating with the other shops around, we can get a good understanding of the "industry standard" when it comes to pricing. I have no problem telling someone they should be charging more for "insert product here". Now he knows what I charge and why. He thinks about it a realizes that I'm right and in turn charges a more appropriate price. In turn, this evens out the "industry standard" and we can all have a piece of the pie. I always make a point to meet the competition and I always extend a helping hand. In most cases, we've been able to help each other out in some way or another and we're all better for it at the end of the day.
I could go on and on but I'm gonna leave it at that. Think about it...

[Patrick46]

I got into a discussion on another thread the other day (on here) about how to compete against the other shops that offer 'quick signs'.

Well, here's the perfect quote for those 'quickie' shops out there... It takes a little bit longer to land the big fish but they provide more meals!
You guys can spend your time fighting over 10 small 'quickie' signs. Knock 'em out in an hour or two and be done until the next one shows up to fight over. (and you'll keep on doing this, over & over & over.........)

SKREW THAT!!!...I'm goin after the customer who'll feed me for a MONTH with his 1 job!


Well said...the "technician" mentality as opposed to the "entrepreneurial" one!!!

JP:toasting:
JP has obviously read the 'E-Myth' by Michael Gerber. Now THAT is an awesome book!!! (top of my 'Must Read' list for small business owners) I now have 2 of his other books as well.

[Gino]

Like Patrick........

I would rather letter one truck for $2,000, then 10 trucks for $200 a piece. The only problem with that is, unless you have a lot of the big fish as gbah put it.... you're putting your eggs all into one basket.

If one or two eggs break and fall out... you've got a lot of scrabbling to do.

I know a guy here locally that would not touch a truck or sign job unless he got paid well for it... and I mean WELL. He did nice in his shop for some years, having his select customers, but as the economy got tough he would ask me how business was for us and he told me his was dwindling. I know this guy since about 1975 and we did many jobs together and he would come in and do work for me at a reduced price. Well, he got too big for his britches and although we stayed friends... we didn't do too much work together anymore. We still did our share of drinking and having fun, but we never mixed business with friendship. In the last two years... all but two or three of his big clients have left him and about 6 months ago he asked me for some work... or if he could put in three days a week in out shop. I told him I had plenty of work, but none that he could do for me.... and that was the truth. I felt bad for him, but he is so set in his ways.... I can't use him anymore. He's sold his motorcycle, van, Vette, other toys and now his wife left him for no reason... according to him.

He is so used to milking everything... he can't produce and now since we're so digitally inclined..... there's not much he can do. He can't even use his own computer system for much more than die-cutting and he has no digitally capabilities at all. He's literally painted himself into a corner and now has no way out.

I believe while cultivating some big paying customers... its good practice to keep those little ones coming in. You'd be surprised at how many little quickies have turned into some really nice accounts.

He's a true dinosaur and hasn't kept up with technology or business methods.

[tomence]

Call me when you get a $2000 trailer for lettering.

[tomence]

If you are going to wait for those high paid jobs that you imagine in your head you will be the first one to go out of business.

[SignManiac]

You have a lot to learn.

[tomence]

Yeah!

[gbarker]

This is the reason I went wholesale. I opened up the phone book and noticed I had 40+ competitors within 15 miles. Not all of them had bucket trucks and printing capability. They would call me to do the service work and printing then a light bulb went off in my head. Sure hope it was the right move...

[luggnut]

sign maniac says it best... and it's not easy, i am still working at it.

you know mcdonalds, outback, and even fancier restaurants all sell hamburgers ... mcdonalds is the cheapest but people don't always go there.. why? the presentation, atmosphere , service at the nicer places... and people will pay a little more for it.

you may be mcdonalds, if thats the case you are bargaining on price alone... everyone can't be the best or even just really good but someone has to be .. can it be you and can you market enough to make others know it?

are you capable of closing the sales? is your work going to stand up and make people believe it was money well spent?

[Craig Sjoquist]

Just to put my $2 billion in.

Yes indeed a good dozen shops within 2 miles from me ..1 a block away if that .. oh well

But who cares that's life nothing is fair ... you adjust do what others don't and a whole lot better, which means you can get more for it.

You should see how much other sign shops illegally advertise and some how low for it lol

SIGN WARS in Orlando ya think lol lol

[sjm]

Sign shops our my best clients.

[eddesign]

Hey I have never heard so much crying over the competition. Competition is good for you. When you play sports do you cry about all the other teams.No you go out and show them who's the best. Going on 27 years in the biz still love it. PS: having a problem with a shop go have a sit down with them thats how we do it in jersey:toasting:

[Dan Antonelli]

Selling commodities is ultimately the problem. But selling design is hard. It requires a lot of work on self-branding, presentation, and client education. That's why so few bother to understand that philosophy, and more importantly, how to market that philosophy.

Everyone loses when you sell vinyl by the pound and square foot, especially you.

Sell something no one else offers, and you'll be amazed how easy it is sell, and command the dollars you deserve. Sell the same thing they perceive they can get down the road, you're in trouble. And if the problem is truly perception, and not reality, than you haven't done a good enough job in establishing the true reality of the differences.

Which brings me back to my first point, which is, design is hard. Commodities are easy.

[Techman]

All the more successful guys are all saying the same thing... Why is that?????

Selling commodities is bad, selling a marketed plan is good.,

[ProWraps]

hey im that guy!!!! im that guy that opened two years ago, while you were an "established" sign shop.

i did it better, faster, longer, harder and more efficient that you!

i focused ALL of my attention on my business day and night while never losing faith and learning what you were doing wrong so i could do it right.

im that guy! and while you were complaining, my company went right to the top!

we walked into a flooded market, flooded it even more, and became the #1 wrap provider over shops that were doing it for over 10 years!

we innovated the advertising practices of our market which now, all of our competition mimics!

i guess we just got lucky :cool:

[Tony Teveris]

This is how Gerber got into the sign biz. Back in the late 70s the GSP division was looking to expand but they were not sure where to go. Someone picked up a phone book (remember those) and went through the yellow pages and noticed the number of pages for sign makers. The rest is history.

[jiarby]

Antonelli is right...

Don't sell substrates, sell marketing solutions. That's why ad agencies charge HUGE money, because they are creating the solution to the customer's problem. You are just printing it!

The customer calling you for a wrap doesn't REALLY want to spend $$$$ to put vinyl on his vehicle. He want to increase traffic to his business so he makes more money.

Show him how what you do will get him what he wants (more traffic & sales) instead of quoting $xx/sqft for vinyl that he doesn't really want to buy to begin with.

If your only competitive advantage is price then you have only one direction to go.... DOWN!

[tomence]

+1 for ProWraps
Been in business for 20 years doesnt mean you are better than rest of us that started small or 1-2 years ago.

[ProWraps]

exactly right. what i have found is that it usually means you are out of touch with technology, dont know how market in a digital world, utilize social networking, and no longer have a FRESH drive to do what it takes to remain king of the mountain (this by no means applies to everyone that has been in business for a long time, im only refering to the ones that havent kept up and are pissed about losing ground).

ALL of which i exploited to the max when it came to the "established shops" (granted, even though i knew NOTHING about wraps, i had a serious background in design, web, and business. of which, MANY shops still have none of).

times have changed. when your green your growing, when your ripe your dead.

they say the average life span of a self employed career is 5-10 years.

im sure, in 5-10 years, when im well into my 40's, someone that has my knowledge, my drive, and my ingenuity, will come along, and capitalize on all the things i will be failing in at that point and i will be the dinosaur.

hakuna mattata. OOOHHHHMMMMMMMMMMM.


edit: so i dont sound conceited.. the reason why i know this, is because in my last business, my retail store I WAS THE ONE COMPLAINING. i sat back, watched all my competition take my market share, and did nothing to help myself. i wallowed in my self pitty. this was a tremendous life learning experience for me. not to mention it made me realize it was completely the wrong business for me. which is why i never tryed enough to stay on top.

[tomence]

Once you get older you get lazy and the new generation will take over. Its always been like that so why bother complaining about them instead we should help them. Funny story i was talking to my friend who i learned lot of stuff from him and i said arent you scared if i take your customers and your business. He replied there is more shirts and signs to be made than there is shops and people to do them. He says i dont care if you open your shop next to me we always will have work. Thats why i dont understand why ppl here are crying like little babies about somebody that works in their basement, instead of focusing about their own business.

[mtmdesigns]

bottom line is half of the sign industry people are flakes, When you show up on time and get your work done with good quality it stands out. The competitor works in your favor because, the lack of work ethic some have in "today's" society. You get what you put into it.

[CentralSigns]

Well I'm only 28 and haven't been in the business a fraction of the time as some of you, but here's a little tip from me...

You can really set yourself apart from the competition by taking extra time to make your customers feel special...When someone talks to me about a sign, I've been preparing several different layouts for them to pick from, even on the very simple jobs. They like having choices. Plus, I always throw a really spruced up design in there, which often leads to them spending more money than they planned.

Some of the sign guys around here just type up a plain jane layout in arial black and that's it.

This young fella has the point. What I do is go to the customers business. They want a sign, I show up with my laptop and build it before their eyes. This usually amaises them sometimes you can come back the next day if there is too much to build. This gets more talk going between the customers and their business aquantences, and I often get a second or third job within days of finishing one, all by referals from the first shop. I also install at the customers location often they have a heated shop for me to decal vehicles in. This personal service does have a price, about 10-20% more. Think on that a bit.

[CentralSigns]

[QUOTE=jiarby;686175]
Show him how what you do will get him what he wants (more traffic & sales) instead of quoting $xx/sqft for vinyl that he doesn't really want to buy to begin with.
QUOTE]

Sold an accountant a couple of simple banners the week before tax time. 4 months latter she come back to me and said she had to hire double the staff and they were still swamped. Best tax season she ever had wished I had talked into the 2 banners years ago. I guess I sold her a marketing scheme for her business.

[Farmboy]

We are a "quickie shop". We get compliments on our products and the way our shop looks all the time. Mostly cause I give a damn! When you walk in it's clean, we're pleasant, there's no boxes piled in the corner, alot of finished product in a pickup area arranged orderly, all of our 1 to 12 piece shirt orders go out the door in a cloth tote bag that has our logo and what we do on it (people love these by the way). Being a quickie shop is how I decided to set us apart from everyone else in the area. So far it's working good, we're busy (and makin cash). Customers are happy and so are we.

[round man]

There is only one pie (your market) that pie can only be sliced into so many pieces before it gets to the point that the slices are so thin they aren't sufficient to be called a slice. There was time when one had to be able to produce artwork by hand that had to meet a certain standard,and or fall by the wayside,...All of you young upstarts should be greatful,...as 90% of you wouldn't have cut the mustard twenty-five years ago,...In todays current market place that is not an issue,..usually the issue is the amount of technology you can afford and your marketing skills,..This is not a fair playing field for some of us "old timers", but there are many of us who have adapted successfully to technology and carried on just the same,...a simple warning from one of us old timers who have seen technology replace hard earned work ethic of experience with technology,...the very market changes you have succeeded in taking advantage of may very well come back and bite you in the *** with the next new wave of technology,..rest assured the price of technology is not going to raise in value it will become more affordable for the next wave of "hacks" who will saturate a market even more till the lucrative slice of the "pie" will become negligable to the point it isn't sufficient. The software and printer manufacturers aren't going to quit trying to make their products cheaper and sell less of them,.....If you can find a market "niche" that is succesfull for you then great,,but if you aren't careful the ease of which you took advantage of a market instance may very well pass with time as did the hand painting skills of us old timers who most of you think of as the primary complainers,...If the truth were known I would go so far as to say most of the whiners are those who came into the industry less than twenty years ago as the first group who didn't need to have the art skills which were required prior to the recent technology which made those skills unnecessary.Be forewarned from someone who has been there,....the very thing which makes it so possible for you to succeed may very well be your downfall,don't ask me how I came to know this. As for me,... I am going back to school at 57 to learn to work within the technology field in a manner that is in high demand and very lucrative and let all ya'll rookies fight over that ever so thinner slice of the pie. As Dan put it "design is hard",....The definition of insanity is to try doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results,..,...

[tomence]

Thats what you are "Old Timer" your time has passed.

[iSign]

the old timers got something to offer here... punks like you are turning out to be, don't have squat to offer, just a bunch of whineyass questions... but at least the respectful punks can get help... punks like you will see a whole freakin lot less help from the multitude of experienced veterans on this board, because you are a self centered loser with attitude.. good luck...

[round man]

unless you have some sort of miracle potion Tomence you too will be "an old timer" sooner than you think,.,,if you last that long in the business,....I accomplished more on this business in ten years of my fourty years than most do in a lifetime,.,its been good to me and I am thankful,..raised three sons and grossed over 900k maybe even made my first million hell I lost count a few years back,... Heed my warning young man your attitude is your worst enemy

oh yea,..thanx Doug,....

[andy]

+1 for ProWraps
Been in business for 20 years doesnt mean you are better than rest of us that started small or 1-2 years ago.

Being in business for 20 years doesn't mean that you are any better than the rest of us who started on a small scale or within the last 1-2 years.

Us old timers at least understand the critical importance of spelling, punctuation and the need to construct coherent sentences.

Words are your raw materials my friend.

[SignManiac]

Tomence, at first I wasn't quite sure how to take you. Now I am.

[Fitch]

hmmm...

This is both fact and discriminatory/

Round Man... God Bless...

Tomence... have some respect.

I know that Isign and many others can answer this but .... if you do not know what

A pounce is...
A fitch is...
An OHP is...
Terebine is...
Shellac is...
Smalts are...
HDU is...
NC file is...
Passover is...
Fast size, slow size is...
A DXF, 3DM, EPS, DWG, PLT, AI or STL files are...

You are SERIOSLY not in the sign game... merely computer operators that design within a program and print to a sticky substrate.

When you can do a quote to handpaint on Monday, do a dimensional sign on a cnc on Tuesday, Hand carve HDU and gild on Wednesday, install a digital print on DiBond on Thursday, and Airbrush a banner on Friday...

THEN... and ONLY THEN are you in the sign game.

This is my 15th year working for myself and still know Jack$hit.

When you get even CLOSE to me and I know nothing ... then I will listen to what you have to say.

Not before.

Imagine your days with no electricity. Can you survive past 3 months - I can.

Because and ONLY because I am TRULY in the sign game. Doesn't make me special; just willing to absorb all that the craft has to offer. CRAFT... a key word.

Oh Lord blessed be to those like OP and Isign.... they know where it's at... and can survive.


So there.

[tomence]

Ok guys i will say sorry to whoever i offended.
Round Man when it comes to money i have plenty of them.

[johnnyblazedog]

I think that we will be seeing a lot more offset printing companies getting into signs. Offset printing is a shrinking industry (probably why your neighbor closed shop), and those printers who are able to survive will be forced to expand their product line.

From the standpoint of an offset printer (which we have done for 20 years), sign equipment AND screen printing is dirt cheap and so many of the offset skills carry over to signage and/or screen printing that signs/screen printing makes for a realitively easy sideline.

We now have a sign department (digital printed and cut vinyl and screen printed), a textile screen printing department, an offset department, and an advertising specialties dept.

I could not agree more. I have seen this personally, I work for a BIG offset printer that because of the economy decided to layoff 90% of the employees in my facility, decommission and ship out the 15 litho rotary offset presses that we had. Then decided to buy a Wide Format printer and have the shipping supervisor and lead person run the show, they are GREAT at warehousing and shipping and receiving but had no previous knowledge of the business. Im sure they are not too worried because as someone mentioned earlier they have the corporate backing to cover their @$$E$ when ever things go south. Okay rant over. :doh:

[Edserv]

As Rush Limbaugh says, "Come on in, the water's warm!"
Many sign shops in an area could be a great sign (no pun intended) that you're in a great place for this industry. If you know how to market and sell, you should easily gain clients and business. Customer service (over price, in my opinion,) is what gets the long-term revenue increasing fast.
You can build a great business, regardless of what anyone else is doing, by staying the course, providing great service, and trying to keep your clients ROI in-line. (Taking all things into consideration.)
Just be careful not to fall into the "price war" strategy that many sign shops (who don't know how to market or sell) fall into. You don't need to do this!
Good luck!
Chris

[decals]

There are 8 shops in my town (and general area). There were 11 until about a year ago. It's kind of funny when you look at what they do:

Shop #1 - vinyl graphics + tanning beds (out of business)
Shop #2 - carved wood + sign servicing + cornhole boards
Shop #3 - screen printing + screen printed coroplast
Shop #4 - some vinyl, but mostly custom "old school" signs and physical lettering
Shop #5 - 4 different locations in 3 years, hasn't realized it's dead yet
Shop #6 - located in an old school, they mainly do embroidery and work for churches.
Shop #7 - sporting goods + trophy shop + lettering? (business for sale)
Shop #8 - two sisters, a cutter, a screen printer, and an embroidery machine. neither understand deadlines.

And now for me, I suppose. I do vintage graphics reproduction and focus mainly on the restoration market for automobiles and motorcycles. I'm probably one of the few people in my state that still do custom stained glass, leafwork, and acid etching. I decided earlier this year to jump into screen printing since the wife is bound and determined to put Shop #7 out of business, and since she's done SP in the past and has a good reputation with multiple repeat purchasers.

Honestly, I love the competition because most of them are bumbling fools. I'm on time, every time. I've more than differentiated myself, while snatching enough low hanging fruit to keep me busy when I want to be. I don't try to be an all-out "one stop", because I would rather do what I do exceptionally well than be a jack of all trades but a master of none.

[John L]

Shop #4 - some vinyl, but mostly custom "old school" signs and physical lettering

Shop #6 - located in an old school, they mainly do embroidery and work for churches.


If Shop #4 moved into Shop #6's location, I would dig that.

[binki]

We are not in a small town but across the street from us the print and copy shop did signs (closed 6 months ago), the art store next to him does signs, the 2nd hand store a block away does signs and there are 3 more in walking distance from us. Those are just the ones I know about.

We are in an old downtown area (read antique shops and hair salons) and the re-upholster guy started selling antiques, the art shop that does signs also sells antiques, one barber down the street sells antiques, the retail clothing store down the way stopped using us for wholesale clothing and started doing her own, one of the sign shops started doing screen printing and embroidery on garments.

We don't worry about things we don't control.

[Colin]

Great thread. I've read every post, and many very good comments have been made (and that last one on this page by andy was great!)

I don't know too many businesses that don't have stiff competition, but it does seem to be particularly saturated for us in the sign business with the myriad levels of "sign shops" out there. It seems that perhaps part of the problem lays in the fact that there is no qualification required, like there is for a plumber, electrician, etc. I mean, how is it that the parasites known as "realtors" have somehow been able to organize themselves enough to establish comfy (read, obscene) rates/formulas for their commissions. Could they really justify being awarded $20,000.00 of your after-tax equity for a little time and some paperwork on a sale of your home if these "policies" weren't in place? (That is slowly changing in the real estate industry, but the way it's been for decades is just offensive).

Even within the free-for-all realm of roofing, those guys make a killing. Why is the sign industry so weak-kneed and driven to bickering over nickles & dimes? Is it because we love what we do, and are willing to be beaten down? Perhaps because it's now "easy". It is easy to buy the equipment and start churning the stuff out at near cost prices. I just read on another forum about a guy who was asking how to get a VersaCAMM into his APARTMENT, and if maybe a 54 would fit instead of the 30! But as Dan A. so astutely pointed out, design matters, and it's up to those who have good to excellent design abilities to set themselves apart from the masses who seem to think that red Brush Script in all caps, on a severe arc, on a blue background looks "great". Not an easy task though...........

And therein lays the problem; the majority of our customers are like a bunch of trained monkeys. Except that, instead of doing tricks for some peanuts, they're trained (as admittedly we all are to varying degrees) to shop in a "retail" fashion.....for the lowest price. And that makes perfect sense; for if I want to buy a Panasonic Plasma model 1234 television, I will indeed shop for the lowest price, because I am going to get the same damned thing no matter where I buy it. This habit spills over, unfortunately, into other areas of purchase where you're not getting the same damned thing. And that's where the person "shopping" for a sign walks into the big pie in the face. I wish I had a dollar for every time I got the phone call which starts with: "How much is a banner?" (or sandwich board, or truck lettering, or boat lettering, etc) - without any details given. Nobody would dream of phoning a car dealer and asking "How much is a car?" Or a builder, and asking: "How much is a house?" But our products have somehow become a commodity, and it boggles my mind how a newspaper can charge $350.00 for a ONE DAY ad, which is then gone, forever; but my customer skrunches up his/her face when I quote the same fee for lettering their vehicle which will last 10 years and get viewed by thousands more! How did the value of our form of advertising get so beaten down, whilst at the same time get so very expensive for us to be in?

[bayshorecreations]

I think that we will be seeing a lot more offset printing companies getting into signs. Offset printing is a shrinking industry (probably why your neighbor closed shop), and those printers who are able to survive will be forced to expand their product line.

From the standpoint of an offset printer (which we have done for 20 years), sign equipment AND screen printing is dirt cheap and so many of the offset skills carry over to signage and/or screen printing that signs/screen printing makes for a realitively easy sideline.

We now have a sign department (digital printed and cut vinyl and screen printed), a textile screen printing department, an offset department, and an advertising specialties dept.

I agree! Look at this: http://www.piworld.com/article/sandy-alexander-enters-grand-format-printing-segment-two-durst-printers/1

[Techman]

Once you get older you get lazy and the new generation will take over

pure bullshyte...

[Fatboy]

Maybe they just have a $500 plotter, and need to buy prints (from you!). Find out what they don't do that you DO... and sell it to them!

There is alot more to having a sign shop then cutting stickers for coro. (but those guys all THINK they have a sign shop)
Do they do pan/channel, monument, carved, post & panel, screened, neon, led, wraps, engraved, ada, wayfinding, etc...??

Find out what they do and fill the gaps.

Very true and you make a good point. Most of these guys go into the trade without the tools like wide format printers etc. This is where I found a big need and are now printing for most of them.

[Farmboy]

lt boggles my mind how a newspaper can charge $350.00 for a ONE DAY ad, which is then gone, forever; but my customer skrunches up his/her face when I quote the same fee for lettering their vehicle which will last 10 years and get viewed by thousands more!

I don't know how many times I've had customers come in and balk at the price of mags or yard signs because they had just placed an ad in one of the local papers and didn't have the cash to pay. I always ask how much they paid and than tell them what they could have had for the same amount. I usually just get the deer in the head lights stare.

[Jillbeans]

Just saw a new one on main street which features "Discount" in their name.
I will refer all my cheap-*** tire kickers to them.

[WildWestDesigns]

Same conversation, different business. Whatever you are in, you really need to have a niche and charge for that niche as well.

I will say this, I am one of those that most of the people in here tend not to like. The ones that started up in the "shop" area of their house. I have gotten a lot of business, I mean a lot and they are typically the "one off" type of work. Do one or two license plates here, caps, or mugs here and there. I don't do the more traditional signage either that most of y'all seem to be talking about. However, I'll also do the promotional work as well for the small business around here. Ones that want to do the neat giveaways to customers, but don't want to buy 10k of the stuff at a time.

I have 3 different ways of doing something and I'll give them a choice of the 3 different ways, whatever fits their budget. Now don't think I"m saying that on the lowest budget option that I'm trying to undercut the competition, my cheapest option is just the cheapest way I can do something. It'll probably still be a premium, but it'll be on the lower end of the spectrum. I'm a firm believer in choices, maybe I give them too many, I don't know, but I have gotten great word of mouth because of it.

I actually work longer hours then I do with the horses, but I do like to believe that I produce quality work and that I strive for that quality while giving them exactly what they want. Not what they want to settle for out of a choice of 5, but what they want. Now if I only have the ability to do 5 things, then it will be out of 5, but if I can do it 5 ways, I won't tell them 3. I'll take the time to go over the differences, I'll have them feel the difference between them etc.

Just yesterday I delivered 3 license plates to a guy and he was there with 2 of his friends and one of them didn't realize that I was doing totally custom tags. He was looking for one on a truck that he had rebuilt and he was wanting something for it, but didn't like what you could get "store bought" and a bunch of the other places that did "custom" work, had limitations on it. People that I deal with don't like limitations, I try to give them far less(there will always be a limitation at some point), but they do have to pay for that, but in most cases, I'm upfront with that at the get go and they don't have a problem. Communication.

[Colin]

As if on queue, the courier who just left after delivering my 10 sheets of coroplast said: "There sure seems to be a lot of sign shops out there!"

[washingtonsignguy]

My Father has spent the last 35 years building a very successful excavation business. He is known in this area as the guy to go to for something done right. Being where he came from, I have a lot of respect for this. The other day i was with him driving by a sign that was spray painted on old plywood it read "Excavating. $40.00hr" and a number. He looked at it and chuckled. (he charges $100.00hr) I asked him if that bugs him. He said No and explained why. There has always been that guy that doesnt know what he is doing undercuts the commpetition. Along with that guy is the customer that always look for him. I have seen this customer, he is needy and overall pissed off that he needs your services. Usually only wasting your time in writing bids for him and then chewing you out cause he found someone cheaper and that you are way to expensive. Or he hires you but is never happy and only spreads bad word of mouth. To me it is important to have those guys around, cause i sure cannot make those customers happy, and I have tried.

I thought this was an interesting point and made me realize that the sign industry isnt alone in this way. But that this was and always will be there in any industry. It is part of business. I never thought it did any good complaining about it. Focus on who you are and be glad that you are where you are and look forward to where you wanna be. I might have resaid a few things, but thought it was a story of interest

[Freehandan]

I can relate to the veterans in the business sense around here. Your market is Your personal market. Personal service is the start of my sale. 99% of my customers are word of mouth and/or because they see me spend time in public doing tasks that attract criticizm and/or wonder. There are a lot of fools in the business. Most of them do use clip-art religiously to the point that they can find a price to fit their budget and somebody who can print. Then the only way they can one-up me is to complain about a brushstroke and a drip before I am done. A few people agree with that and then they finance a company based on that. Then they cut throats and starve. I underprice my work just to survive and reclaim the jobs anymore. But signs always leads me to more and different work doing it like the old-school way. Who would have known that the the sign guy could draw charcoal portraits of your family?? They find out many things as I am sketching for them.
My equipment.....-Whatever! But I leave the computer generated market for others.
Every computer can do the same things, for anybody. You can diversify to save your investment by buying more machines to to different things, or do different things as an artist to make you unique so you will always have demand for personal service.
And as far as educating your competition, I learned in Tattooing- It is ALL about drive. Anyone can learn to be a stencil skin-jockey or a vinyl sign cutter, and you can make a Good living at it. But 99% of the time, they don't. Even when you put the tools in their hand.
Fear creates machines which creates fear in competition for fear of not having a competitive machine.

[trakers]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I got the phone call which starts with: "How much is a banner?" (or sandwich board, or truck lettering, or boat lettering, etc) - without any details given. Nobody would dream of phoning a car dealer and asking "How much is a car?" Or a builder, and asking: "How much is a house?" But our products have somehow become a commodity, and it boggles my mind how a newspaper can charge $350.00 for a ONE DAY ad, which is then gone, forever; but my customer skrunches up his/her face when I quote the same fee for lettering their vehicle which will last 10 years and get viewed by thousands more! How did the value of our form of advertising get so beaten down, whilst at the same time get so very expensive for us to be in?


Right on the head. We get this *every day*. "How much is a sign" and "Ballpark price" are two phrases that raise my feathers these day. Always with no explanation of what they want or expect.

But you know what I've found? When someone says "Oh my, I can get that same sign for $xx in xxxx. I say "Well then looks like you should drive the 30 miles to xxxx and get it there. Thanks for stopping by!"

Almost every time they say "Well I'd rather get it from you guys" and end up placing an order. I love a good negotiation, but it does get old after awhile.

[OldPaint]

to be in this busines today requires NO TALENT, NO TRAINING, NO DEDICATION to learn a craft or how to increase your artistic ability. only thing needed is MONEY.........or credit.
tomence is one of them with more money then brains. iam a freind of round man, i-sign, and in the realm of talent out there, these 2 are at the top of the list. so i can have pity for tomance, as he will never know what its like to have that intangible gift true artists have.

[i45signs]

They must be democats....wanting something for nothing

[iSign]

iam a freind of round man, i-sign, and in the realm of talent out there, these 2 are at the top of the list.
Hey Joe... thanks for the kudo's... I had the good fortune to meet Round Man this summer & I can honestly say he has more talent in his brush hand alone then I have dredged up in my life thus far.. (but I got a few years to catch up I think :tongue:) ..and as for the talented bunch on this site alone... I'm happy to even make it to the middle of anyone's list..

They must be democats....wanting something for nothing

Now, as for I-45 & his ignorant & inappropriate comment... it don't get much dumber then a merchant alienating half the market he pay's to advertise to, because he can't manage to follow the rules of this forum, OR basic common sense of marketing... can we say "dumas" here?

[FrankenSigns.biz]

Now, as for I-45 & his ignorant & inappropriate comment... it don't get much dumber then a merchant alienating half the market he pay's to advertise to, because he can't manage to follow the rules of this forum, OR basic common sense of marketing... can we say "dumas" here?

May I add, this is my sentiment as well.

[skyhigh]

Thats what you are "Old Timer" your time has passed.

Once you get older you get lazy and the new generation will take over. Its always been like that so why bother complaining about them instead we should help them.

Thats F'n classic. Your time has passed, but stick around and HELP ME. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Been on your website.....your a screen printer. Nothing wrong with that except your on a SIGN website, telling us how you can do it better????
Maybe you meant to say.....IF I made signs, I could do it better?:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:


hey im that guy!!!! im that guy that opened two years ago, while you were an "established" sign shop.

i did it better, faster, longer, harder and more efficient that you!


ProWraps......you should go back to your old avitar. Ya know, the swoosh ......oops, I meant the stolen swoosh. Remember the line of crap you gave us over that one? Now you're pumping your chest again, telling us how you trompled all these ESTABLISHED sign shops (stretching the truth again?) Cammon sacwrap, the only business you could have possibly taken from an established shop, is the vehicle/wraps (and I'm sure they still get their share), as that is ALL you do. The loss of vehicle wraps, to an established shop, is just a small portion of what a full service SIGN shop does. Like tomence, you really don't make signs....well sorta.

I will give you credit for how well you have done in a short 2 years, but you really need to get over yourself dude. Most of your wraps just aren't that good (mostly the install part). If you do as many as you say, I'm guessing its because of your prices......and from what I've seen, I'd have to say, you get what you pay for.

Have a super day fellas.

ps, I don't do wraps, & I don't do screen printing. I do all the OTHER kinda signs. (I guess I'm safe)

[CentralSigns]

My new competition is a screen printer who bought a Roland and became a wana be sign guy. Seriously damaging the market price. He has no conception of deadlines and sells poor quality product. Lately he has been hounding my customers and offering a better deal while badmouthing me. Only a matter of time and he'll be out of business. I think I'm gonna sell t-shirts for wholesale for a while. I know he gets $20 per and I can sell for $5 per and blow up his market. I'm not usually that nasty, but need to cover the damage quickly. Clueless screen printers with attitude **** me off, no wonder they are attacking the sign industry, they f#$#ed up theirs.

[iSign]

ProWraps......you should go back to your old avitar. Ya know, the swoosh ......oops, I meant the stolen swoosh. Remember the line of crap you gave us over that one?


hey.. in fairness, his wasn't a stolen one.. he paid $35 for it:Big Laugh
(oh yeah... it was the rest of us who stole it :omg:)

[WildWestDesigns]

My new competition is a screen printer who bought a Roland and became a wana be sign guy. Seriously damaging the market price. He has no conception of deadlines and sells poor quality product. Lately he has been hounding my customers and offering a better deal while badmouthing me. Only a matter of time and he'll be out of business. I think I'm gonna sell t-shirts for wholesale for a while. I know he gets $20 per and I can sell for $5 per and blow up his market. I'm not usually that nasty, but need to cover the damage quickly. Clueless screen printers with attitude **** me off, no wonder they are attacking the sign industry, they f#$#ed up theirs.

Be careful with how you deal with something like this. I have worked(and still do) in the horse industry for a long time and nasty stuff like this can bite both of y'all really easily. For awhile one might be up on the other, but in the end being nasty only gets nasty things back. I have seen many barns and barn managers that are out in the cold due to engaging in this type of stuff. If you can't say something nice, really stay out of it. Especially true in a business that is dominated by word of mouth. Doesn't matter if what is being said is true or not.

[CentralSigns]

The t-shirt thing was a bit off, but I'm pissed and thats how I feel. I guess in the end he will sink his own ship. Sorry if it insulted anyone or raised any hackles. Any other solutions other that t-shirt sales, I'm at wits end.

[michsanford]

Not too many in my general area yet...thankfully! Only 3 within a 10 mile radius!

[skyhigh]

The t-shirt thing was a bit off, but I'm pissed and thats how I feel. I guess in the end he will sink his own ship. Sorry if it insulted anyone or raised any hackles. Any other solutions other that t-shirt sales, I'm at wits end.


Have a talk with the guy. Explain what he's doing would be comparable to you offering tee's for half of what he charges. He knows he can make a profit at $10 a pop, but would he want to?

At his prices, he definately dosen't like to leave money on the table......so ask him why he feels he should on signs. Then give him a copy of the sign craft pricing guide.

Lastly, after you've managed to show him the errors of his ways, punch the F'er in the face for badmouthing you.

(I think I have anger issues)

Maybe you need to "Up Your Game and get a little creative, instead of sitting back waiting for business to come to you. Sounds like what he's doing.

[fmg]

Why is there so much hate and anger on this forum.
Childish if you ask me!

[skyhigh]

ohhh, stick it up your.......... (jk)

:ROFLMAO:

[fmg]

ohhh, stick it up your.......... (jk)

:ROFLMAO:

that's better some humor.

[tomence]

I smell something here! "JEALOUSY". I feel good when somebody talks about me. WOW.
And you with the t-shirt thing, come compete with me, I can go as low as $2.5O a shirt and still make a profit.
And for the things i said before i did apologize didnt mean to hurt no one but realized that i did and like i said i apologized for it.
And as far as i know there are lot of sign shops that do screen printing so what should i say about them, curse them?
And what's wrong with ProWraps, for all i can tell he is doing very good and i think his business is sky rocketing, but yeah you are jealous so you have to make a comment.
Do I have brains? I don't know but as far as i can tell the brains that i got make me lot of money, A LOT.
So go screw your self i don't give a damn what you think about me.

[skyhigh]

:U Rock:

[CentralSigns]

I smell something here! "JEALOUSY". I feel good when somebody talks about me. WOW.
And you with the t-shirt thing, come compete with me, I can go as low as $2.5O a shirt and still make a profit.
So go screw your self i don't give a damn what you think about me.

The truth is I don't want to get into T's. Nope, no desire at all. The facts I said are true, and possibly sky high is right. The ******* I deal with needs confrunted. Jealous of you I doubt it, not in a million years. $2.50 ea t good job, I could even go cheaper if I had the desire. I got into the sign industry to make signs not t's, too many silk screeners fighting over pennies. At the time I posted, I hadn't made a decision what I thought of you, now I might have.

Cheers

[showcase 66]

And you with the t-shirt thing, come compete with me, I can go as low as $2.5O a shirt and still make a profit.

You do realize that this is an open forum so if someone looking for a t shirt guy in Willowbrook, IL and they happen upon this thread. They are going to think you are ripping them off when you charge them Around $10 for their shirt.

[tomence]

Dude the Jealous and the Screw part wasn't meant for you.

The truth is I don't want to get into T's. Nope, no desire at all. The facts I said are true, and possibly sky high is right. The ******* I deal with needs confrunted. Jealous of you I doubt it, not in a million years. $2.50 ea t good job, I could even go cheaper if I had the desire. I got into the sign industry to make signs not t's, too many silk screeners fighting over pennies. At the time I posted, I hadn't made a decision what I thought of you, now I might have.

Cheers

[tomence]

I didn't realize that but the good thing is I live in Willowbrook and my shop is located in a totally different area. So i guess people looking for the $2.50 shirts will go to my competition in Willowbrook. LOL

You do realize that this is an open forum so if someone looking for a t shirt guy in Willowbrook, IL and they happen upon this thread. They are going to think you are ripping them off when you charge them Around $10 for their shirt.

[artsnletters]

some of you young fukkers ought to google "All Hat, No Cattle"....
Tim

[jc1cell]

all hat, no cattle Too funny

[skyhigh]

Is that like "All wax & no Wick"?

[TCBinaflash]

ohhh, stick it up your.......... (jk)

:ROFLMAO:


Pole pocket? Coro flute?

[HaroldDesign]

Interesting thread, as I sometimes wonder why I don't start a sign shop myself. I say that because my skill set seems it would fit quite nice~
- 5 years wood pattern-maker. Entailed about every damn tool and layout skill there is.
- 4 years art director for a printing company. All pre-press, design and much experience with large format printing equipment, plus real experience in Adobe on top of previous schooling.
- Currently (have been for a few years) manage large format department for a lithograph printing company, including all quoting, ordering, etc...
- Have done numerous hand-painted signs, art projects, logos, etc that have come my way through word of mouth, and I wasn't looking for the work.

This is a small nutshell overview. I think I know why I don't do it. 1) Start-up $. 2) Fear of the paperwork needed to protect myself, and how to keep legit with the government. I don't know - maybe I don't have what it takes. I don't think it would be easy. Maybe that's why I don't do it.

[WildWestDesigns]

1) Start-up $. 2) Fear of the paperwork needed to protect myself, and how to keep legit with the government. I don't know - maybe I don't have what it takes. I don't think it would be easy. Maybe that's why I don't do it.

Try running a horse facility. That would make the start up cost and paperwork for a sign shop seem like small fries.

[Colin]

Try running a horse facility. That would make the start up cost and paperwork for a sign shop seem like small fries.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw: "Poverty is owning a horse"

[Freehandan]

It takes this....No Fear
100 no's means 1 yes.
You walk, drive or bike out there, Get the job(s) and Do Em!
That's how it works. You can get anything you want as far as supplies from the net and cash talks also. If you are painting signs, You paint until someone says something, then you say- "Well, I could go to the unemployment line!- and get your taxes!" or point to the business owner recieving the sign. ( they should know they are responsible if you are honest)
Computer generated signs on substrate can be hand-overs, don't install.
How much paperwork you need?, NonE
Government...Oh Well, times are tough.
Paperwork??? You got to make money to pay money.
They can only regulate the ones wanting to be regulated.
* also- if there were some locals reading- why would you say anything you would not admit to anyway?
And remember... a drunken irish diplomat once said..The only thing you have to fear....
-you should know the rest.

[Dave Drane]

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw: "Poverty is owning a horse"

Hey Colin, that is the same as "poverty is owninfg a Harley" !! :thumb:

[skyhigh]

Pay attention children.........proof you should never huff "OneShot"

[Adtechia]

I have read through all the posts on here. I understand what everyone is saying about people undercutting there prices. Well, it can't be stopped. Deal with it.

I am a Print and Sign Broker who sell signs and print cheap one or two products per line only. It makes my phone ring. I have no choice. Its true you can't sell a set of Magnets for $95 in some markets. I can't here and expect to eat. Yeah I might sell one or two a month but thats not going to pay my mortgage or feed my kids. I offer two choices cheap garbage and more expensive quality. I also do Artwork I charge for that. Those customers who want cheap turn-key garbage art can get it. I sell them cheap product with garbage art, others are willing to pay for good art. I sell them High Quality product with Good Artwork.

Both customers get what they want. Do I worry about those who are undercutting the market on product NO! They won't make there bills at the end of the month eventually. You can't keep selling super cheap on everything and expect to stay ahead. If you need to sell cheap discount one or two products not the whole line of products.

The answer to those of you who are nervous why worry. I don't sell Neon, LCD, or Sandblasted. I don't want to and don't have any desire to get involved in it.

Make friends with people like me. I am out there hunting down the work. I have sales people actively meeting with hundreds of clients a month. Give me cheap products that we both know don't cost much to make and I will handshake you over to the big jobs you want. I will give you access to cheap printing in return. When I find the big sandblasted job or Neon etc.. Guess who I am going to call and say "I need you to talk to this client of mine".

Don't steal my clients and don't give away artwork. Treat me with respect and I will do the same. http://www.signs101.com/forums/images/smilies/thank%20you.gif

[Gino]

After one develops the reputation for doing everything cheap….. how can you honestly tell the next guy…. yours is gonna cost more ??

Instead of helping to improve the industry, you’re just going to use the attitude that you are helpless to better educate your clientele and just hand out crap for next to nothing and feed your kids on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

Why not feed them good wholesome food that will help them grow into young intelligent human beings with a mind worth nourishing ?? You can’t do that unless you educate them and that’s exactly what you have to do with your customers or you’ll continue to be a lowballer.

Don’t think for a minute these lowballers you think are gonna shrivel up and die will do so. There are so many of them out there now, you can’t get away from them….. and you’re in with them. You’re actually admitting you use the very same marketing plan and have hundreds of leads on this stuff with your sales force. Why do you waste your time on non-paying jobs ?? You say you have some art paying customers….. why not cultivate that kinda following and start feeding your kids better and giving them some hope ??

[Colin]

I was just thinking on how this parallels what has happened in the photography world. It has become very difficult to earn a living as a photographer now because of the way digital photography (in consort with computers), has opened it up to the masses. I was out taking some pictures today and spoke with a guy with a $9000.00 camera who just does it as a hobby now after trying to make a living at it.

So I imagine that photographers have it worse than us sign people. Yes, there are a few people who will pay the big bucks for that highly skilled & talented photographer for their wedding day, but the masses of average photographers are probably having this very conversation over on their own forums.

But, does the highly skilled & talented photographer also stoop to doing junk work? I don't think so.


Anyways, just some random thoughts.

[Colin]

Oh ya, here's one from today. Not a great shot, but I like the title I give it:

"You guys.......you're all the same!"


.

[fmg]

I was just thinking on how this parallels what has happened in the photography world. It has become very difficult to earn a living as a photographer now because of the way digital photography (in consort with computers), has opened it up to the masses. I was out taking some pictures today and spoke with a guy with a $9000.00 camera who just does it as a hobby now after trying to make a living at it.

So I imagine that photographers have it worse than us sign people. Yes, there are a few people who will pay the big bucks for that highly skilled & talented photographer for their wedding day, but the masses of average photographers are probably having this very conversation over on their own forums.

But, does the highly skilled & talented photographer also stoop to doing junk work? I don't think so.


Anyways, just some random thoughts.
There is a photographer in my town who went Digital a few years ago.He has been slow with work and guess what he is now promoting in doing....Vehicle wraps!

[WildWestDesigns]

But, does the highly skilled & talented photographer also stoop to doing junk work? I don't think so.





Depends on what that photographer terms "junk work". I know some that had to stoop to children's photos, they would certainly consider that "junk" type work.

One person's junk doesn't mean that it's junk to another. There is another thread going on over here about how bad a vehicle advertising job was done. You, they, I might find it not that great, other people might. It might have been what the client wanted. They might have been told otherwise and the client still wanted it the way that they wanted it(I've known some like that). We don't know the particulars of what went on behind the scenes.

For whatever reason, clients also may what more of the cheap option depending on what their needs are, both budget or what use the product goes to(maybe promotional). I don't believe in limiting options, I may not be as cheap as the store down the road, but if they want my cheapest option, I'll do my cheapest option. Then when they want something good(and I can charge a high premium for), I'll be the first one that's on their list and one that they already have experience with, not the cheapo place down the road. Sometimes you just have to play the game.

[Adtechia]

After one develops the reputation for doing everything cheap….. how can you honestly tell the next guy…. yours is gonna cost more ??

Instead of helping to improve the industry, you’re just going to use the attitude that you are helpless to better educate your clientele and just hand out crap for next to nothing and feed your kids on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

Why not feed them good wholesome food that will help them grow into young intelligent human beings with a mind worth nourishing ?? You can’t do that unless you educate them and that’s exactly what you have to do with your customers or you’ll continue to be a lowballer.

Don’t think for a minute these lowballers you think are gonna shrivel up and die will do so. There are so many of them out there now, you can’t get away from them….. and you’re in with them. You’re actually admitting you use the very same marketing plan and have hundreds of leads on this stuff with your sales force. Why do you waste your time on non-paying jobs ?? You say you have some art paying customers….. why not cultivate that kinda following and start feeding your kids better and giving them some hope ??


I don't DO EVERYTHING CHEAP! I do one or two products Cheap. I sell 1 color 1 sided Coroplast cheap w/ Spider Stakes. I sell 4 color 2 sided Direct print Coroplast Cheap. I sell some business cards cheap and some small postcards cheap. Why?? Because, the internet has tons of people selling those same things cheap. Why should I let all my customers go to the internet send that money to other States and take it out of my Local Economy?? I make my phone ring and convert customers to the real money makers. I am not wasting my time on low paying jobs. I use them as my marketing. I don't have to run huge ads. They call for the cheap and leave with the good more often than not. However, if someone is looking for a throw away sign why should it cost $40?? and outlive the event? Don't dilute yourself that a piece of coroplast should last 7 years or a vehicle wrap should last more than 5. There is no point in making that good of a product. Wake up. Why would you want someones coroplast sign being out in the marketplace that long? Why would you want to make a wrap that will outlive the life of the car ?? What reason would the customer ever have to come back to you if you do.

The customers that buy that junk are going to buy it whether or not I sell it too them. They don't want to pay. They aren't going to pay. I do educate my customers but, at the end of the day I don't argue with them. I don't insult them by saying I don't want your business.

I sell them exactly what they want and you know what?? 60% of them come back and buy the better product they should have the next time around. Because, I told them upfront exactly what I was giving them.

As for the printing well Vista Print and others ruined that Market. I give my customers cheap good quality print and they come back for the expensive posters, brochures, etc... that are full Retail.

I don't attempt to lowball site signs, or Nice Digitally printed vinyl w/ laminate on coroplast or aluminum for Real Estate signs or a Site Sign.

There are always going to be those who want cheap. What I am saying is draw the line on what your willing to sell cheap that we know is cheap which is unlaminated 4 mil coroplast. Hold the line on everything else don't budge. I know what the coroplast sheets costs I have the sign supply accounts for purchasing. So don't try and BS me that a 18 x 24 4mm coroplast costs $3.00 for the blank when we both know there less than a buck. That the print averages way less than a buck a sq. ft. with labor.

If you do that your phone will ring and you will get work. If you provide quality Artwork you will always win in the long haul over any lowballer that can't do artwork.

[advsign]

There are always going to be those who want cheap. What I am saying is draw the line on what your willing to sell cheap that we know is cheap which is unlaminated 4 mil coroplast. Hold the line on everything else don't budge. I know what the coroplast sheets costs I have the sign supply accounts for purchasing. So don't try and BS me that a 18 x 24 4mm coroplast costs $3.00 for the blank when we both know there less than a buck. That the print averages way less than a buck a sq. ft. with labor.

If you do that your phone will ring and you will get work. If you provide quality Artwork you will always win in the long haul over any lowballer that can't do artwork.

Cheap coroplast signs equals greater profit. Cheap for me to make but the value is there for most customers. For the others.... I would not want to sell one for only a $3 profit when I can spend the same amount of time getting a $20 profit.

[Adtechia]

Cheap coroplast signs equals greater profit. Cheap for me to make but the value is there for most customers. For the others.... I would not want to sell one for only a $3 profit when I can spend the same amount of time getting a $20 profit.

That's great if you can get it. However, I am not going to be able to get $20 each for 100 1 color 1 sided coroplast signs that are going to go on empty lots or on every street corner in town. Its not going to happen. You will never convince someone buying 100 to pay $2000.00 for some throw-away signs.

Can I get $20 for a single sign HELL YEAH! When I get a customer that wants a single yeah he knows he is going to have to pay. He accepts that fact and if he is delusional well I fix that. I would rather make $3.00 x 100. Than $17 x 1.

[SignManiac]

Advertising in general has become a commodity with little value. Even the billboard companies have slashed their prices to keep their boards covered. The sign industry as a whole is dominated by lowballers and the bar has been set. It will be almost impossible to reverse this trend. I would have to think twice about wanting to be in this business today based on what I see on a day to day basis. The only thing that could possibly force a change is the trash that passes for signs today is legislation that outlaws/bans the crap that's become a blight on our towns/cities/communities. The day that happens, you would see about 75% of all sign companies shut their doors. I know, it's just a fantasy but it sure would be nice.

I've learned one thing over the course of my career, most clients are indeed ignorant with regard to advertising and graphics. They can't be expected to be experts in our field, they are supposed experts in their own business and naturally rely on our expertise to help them with their signs/graphics needs. I go to other professionals out of my field with the expectation that they are going to represent me in the best way possible, and it's not about price with me, it's about professional quality services/work. This is what I sell my clients.

I sell all of my high end work by example of what I can do for them and how their company can/will benefit by having/using a professionally designed brand/image.

They don't walk into my shop and ask for the most expensive sign I have, I have to show them what I have to offer. The easy way out would be to sell them the $75.00 4'x8' 4mil coro sign with three lines of black helvetica. Sure, it's an easy buck, take the money and run. But, with a little effort and a half hour of my time, I can sell them a $1,000 or more 4'x8' in some cases.

The reason we have lowballers in this industry is because they have absolutely nothing else to offer except low price if they want to make anything at all. Lowballer's have been around the sign industry forever and will never go away, they're like cockroaches, you can't kill them, they just keep on coming back.

The only thing any of us can do is raise our game, be better than the rest and you can indeed get the clients who are sensible enough to listen to reason and truly care about the image their company projects. These are the customers you want to please and invest your time in.

We all have one freedom and that's the freedom of choice. We can chose to be the $3.00 Coro Kings and Queens, or the provider of quality made custom work to those with discerning taste. I don't focus on snipe signs, I specialize in signs that have little competition. It's a simple choice that each of us are allowed to make.

This pricing debate will still be going on fifty years from now. The sign profession is like the wild west. A free for all, anybody can buy into the game. America is still a free country and everybody is looking for the easy buck. The sign business is just that, an easy buck, and you will never get rich just making a buck.

[Gino]

Ya know Adtech………………

You talk just like a typical broker. You have all the excuses why you can’t get top buck for your wares and all the reasons why you have to undercharge for everything.

I was trying to be nice to you in my first post, but you got all bent out of shape and accused me of saying things, I didn’t even refer to, let alone say. Putting words in other peoples’ mounts is quite childish and I for one don’t appreciate it. If you’re going to quote me….. quote me correctly or go get bent.

You don’t seem to understand the sign business. You only know statistics and only the statistics you want to acknowledge. I can produce an 18” x 24” double sided for less than 80¢, but I generally get anywhere from $20.00 up to $45.00 each for them in small quantities. Once I get to 100 pieces and can drop the price down, but you forget one thing…… at our shop, we produce everything in-house and I have total authority over quality, price and turnaround. I schedule things, I get supplies here on time, I quote my customers, I close the deals and I take the money home. The only thing you do is look for work and undersell your competition, whether it be from the internet or a guy down the street.

What can you produce with your own hands ?? Huh, I didn’t hear you ??

Is there anything wrong with the way you do it ?? NOPE, not at all. It’s just, you have no control over anything and still want to compete and can’t, so you compete by price alone and then justifying why you’re helping ruin the industry. I can say this however….. you only seem to be selling novelties and the kind of things most sign shops don’t bother with. That makes it even harder for you. Try working smarter and not harder and I’m sure you’ll appreciate the better price scale you can achieve. :thumb:

[Adtechia]

Ya know Adtech………………

What can you produce with your own hands ?? Huh, I didn’t hear you ??


I produce Artwork with my own two hands. I produce Marketing Artwork that is what I sell. Signs to me are just canvases at the end of the day. Whether my art goes on a Sign, Postcard, a Wall or the internet doesn't really matter to me. Hell, I like it when it goes on all of it. Means I did my job.

Yeah I do lowball some product. So What?? McDonald's low balls cheeseburgers have they put Burger King out of Business? No! They lure you in with the cheap burger and sell you the fries and coke. People still go to Burger King for a Whopper. No one expects a Cheeseburger to feed them all year.

So why would you expect a coroplast sign to pay all your bills for a month? You want that big Neon or Big Install Job thats worth Thousands. Well, I want to bring it to you and get 20% for my time finding it.

How am I hurting your market share? Why does it have to be a fight between us? I bring resources to the table that you can't afford. Like knowledge of Marketing, Internet Programming, knowledge of a Companies real Budget (Not the one they tell you about) You have equipment and knowledge I don't have. Why can't a guy like me and a guy like you work together to both stay in the BLACK in this economy???

[Colin]

I've learned one thing over the course of my career, most clients are indeed ignorant with regard to advertising and graphics. They can't be expected to be experts in our field, they are supposed experts in their own business and naturally rely on our expertise to help them with their signs/graphics needs. I go to other professionals out of my field with the expectation that they are going to represent me in the best way possible, and it's not about price with me, it's about professional quality services/work. This is what I sell my clients.

So true. What erodes my enjoyment in this business though is how few customers actually have that humble attitude. Instead, they act like they know it all (especially when it comes to design) and are often defensive of their disasterous ideas.


:frustrated:

[Fred Weiss]

There was a man who lived by the side of the road and sold hot dogs.
He was hard of hearing so he had no radio.
He had trouble with his eyes so he read no newspapers.
But he sold good hot dogs.

He put up signs on the highway telling how good they were.
He stood on the side of the road and cried; "buy a hot dog, mister?
And people bought.

He increased his meat and bun orders.
He bought a bigger stove to take care of his trade.
He finally got his son home from college to help him out.

But then something happened.

His son said, "Father, haven't you been listening to the radio?
Haven't you been reading the newspapers?
There's a big depression.
The European situation is terrible.
The domestic situation is worse."

Where upon the father thought, "well, my son's been to college, he reads the papers and he listens to the radio, and he ought to know."

So the father cut down on his meat and bun orders, took down his advertising signs, and no longer bothered to stand out on the highway to sell his hot dogs.

And his hot dog sales fell almost overnight.
"You're right, son" the father said to the boy.
"We certainly are in the middle of a great depression."

[marcsitkin]

Very astute Fred. Many of our problems are caused more by attitude than macroeconomics.

[Fred Weiss]

Very astute Fred. Many of our problems are caused more by attitude than macroeconomics.

Yes but some attitudes are better than others ...

Bob was joining the army and they were handing out rifles when he arrived, so he got in line. When it got to Bob, they had run out of guns. The man issuing rifles gave him a broom.

"This is a magic broom -- point it at anybody, say 'Bangity bang,' and they will die."

Bob was really worried because he didn't think it would work, but he got in line for bayonets, thinking he might stand a chance if he could stab them to death. As luck would have it, Bob's turn came and they had ran out.

"Don't worry." said the man issuing them out. "I will give you this magic carrot -- point it at somebody, say 'Stabbity stab,' and they will die."

Now Bob is terrified, going into battle with a broom and carrot, when the sirens go off, signaling invasion. Bob goes out, only to be laughed at by the enemy. One enemy even comes up to him, hoping to get a good shot at him. Well, Bob didn't have anything to lose so he pointed at him and said "Bangity bang!" and the guy fell down dead. He did the same thing with the magic carrot. Amazed at what was happening, he continued to fight.

Then, a guy came slowly up to him and he would not die. Bob tried to shoot and stab him, but he wouldn't die. The last words poor Bob heard as he was being trampled over were "Tankity tank."

[Greg Landers]

So when the radio and newspapers are controlled by wealth, they can decide when a depression should occur, and short-sell appropriately.

[Gino]

Haha Fred, they’re great. I think anyone can be talked into or out of anything, if the other person at least sounds sincere. Bippity Boppity Boo.

Back to Adtech….. comparing McDonald’s to Burger King or any of the other fast foods chains is kinda what I’m talking about and you’re ruining. They all offer basically the same thing with a slightly different spin on the names or the pictures…. but they are all selling for within pennies of one another. Yes, that’s exactly what I’m talking about…. If sign shops would all sell for within pennies or dollars or whatever pay scale we’re in….. we’d have to depend on service and quality…. and not price whatsoever.

However, you don’t even have a stove top or a soda machine and you want to bring me customers by hawking like a guy at a baseball game and me give you 20% for your efforts. Now what’s wrong with that picture ??

You’re coming to a gourmet restaurant that sells one-of-kinds in multiples of any size, but you want a Mickeye D’s price. At our gourmet restaurant, you can get Veal Parmigianino, steaks of any cut, fish catch of the day, soups, yummy breads, wines and so much more than you can at a fast food chain. You are stuck with one kind of hamburger or breaded chicken, worthless salads, and waxed ice cream drinks and soda with so much sugar… you gag. How can you compare a gourmet restaurant with a Burger King or Wendy’s ??

Okay, back to signs…. where in God’s name have you ever heard me or anyone else talking about Cor-X signs lasting 7 years ?? Where do you get your information ?? Off the McDonald’s coloring paper placemats ?? C’mon man, get a grip. You’re hardly hurting my or any other sign shop’s market, but you are hurting it for guys local to you by approaching this marketplace you speak of with your broker ideas.

There’s no fight between us Adtech, not at all. It’s not personal in the slightest. I pretty much dislike ALL brokers, so don’t feel singled out by any means. It’s very basic. I broker a few things out myself, but I am a sign shop and we fabricate about 90% to 95% of our wares in-house. There comes a time when I need to sub things out and I make those decisions when to do so or not. I might even sub out a job we could do in-house, but for scheduling restraints or too many deadlines, I have to have others doing work for us. However, other than putting a design together for a post card or a business card or even a Cor-X sign, you sub it all out. Now here’s where it gets interesting.

Now, you need to stay competitive, so I bid a job out using 3/4” MDO with cut out letters and a digitally printed scene and copy of about 20 words and installed 15 miles from our shop. All materials, labor and out-a-pocket expenses come to about $275 to $300. I quote it for $975. including everything and installation. Now you quote the same job, you find someone that will make this for around $750. You add your percentage…. what was that again ?? 40% ?? I doubt you’ll be capable of competing with me, so you either have to take a smaller percentage which hardly makes it worth your while or a cheaper wholesaler. Aha….. now you find someone to do it for $600 and you’re gonna charge $850. The main thing is…. if you compare apples to apples, this new wholesaler of yours won’t be making the sign for anything near the same quality or material-wise and you’re really giving the customer a sign made for about $150 for $850. You’re really moving along now, huh ??

Was I in the ballpark with that 40% or do you try to at least double your investment ?? Kinda hard to do if you can’t control anything. So, you broker guys go around looking for the cheapest guy in town that will sell you a sign and you eventually become known as scum.

Brokering can work, but as long as you sell and don’t try to compete against your own competition. Find one good shop and treat them fairly and you’ll do wonders for yourself… and them, but don’t pretend to be a sign shop and not lowballing if you really are. :banghead:

[Adtechia]

Haha Fred, they’re great. I think anyone can be talked into or out of anything, if the other person at least sounds sincere. Bippity Boppity Boo.

Back to Adtech….. comparing McDonald’s to Burger King or any of the other fast foods chains is kinda what I’m talking about and you’re ruining. They all offer basically the same thing with a slightly different spin on the names or the pictures…. but they are all selling for within pennies of one another. Yes, that’s exactly what I’m talking about…. If sign shops would all sell for within pennies or dollars or whatever pay scale we’re in….. we’d have to depend on service and quality…. and not price whatsoever.

However, you don’t even have a stove top or a soda machine and you want to bring me customers by hawking like a guy at a baseball game and me give you 20% for your efforts. Now what’s wrong with that picture ??

You’re coming to a gourmet restaurant that sells one-of-kinds in multiples of any size, but you want a Mickeye D’s price. At our gourmet restaurant, you can get Veal Parmigianino, steaks of any cut, fish catch of the day, soups, yummy breads, wines and so much more than you can at a fast food chain. You are stuck with one kind of hamburger or breaded chicken, worthless salads, and waxed ice cream drinks and soda with so much sugar… you gag. How can you compare a gourmet restaurant with a Burger King or Wendy’s ??

Okay, back to signs…. where in God’s name have you ever heard me or anyone else talking about Cor-X signs lasting 7 years ?? Where do you get your information ?? Off the McDonald’s coloring paper placemats ?? C’mon man, get a grip. You’re hardly hurting my or any other sign shop’s market, but you are hurting it for guys local to you by approaching this marketplace you speak of with your broker ideas.

There’s no fight between us Adtech, not at all. It’s not personal in the slightest. I pretty much dislike ALL brokers, so don’t feel singled out by any means. It’s very basic. I broker a few things out myself, but I am a sign shop and we fabricate about 90% to 95% of our wares in-house. There comes a time when I need to sub things out and I make those decisions when to do so or not. I might even sub out a job we could do in-house, but for scheduling restraints or too many deadlines, I have to have others doing work for us. However, other than putting a design together for a post card or a business card or even a Cor-X sign, you sub it all out. Now here’s where it gets interesting.

Now, you need to stay competitive, so I bid a job out using 3/4” MDO with cut out letters and a digitally printed scene and copy of about 20 words and installed 15 miles from our shop. All materials, labor and out-a-pocket expenses come to about $275 to $300. I quote it for $975. including everything and installation. Now you quote the same job, you find someone that will make this for around $750. You add your percentage…. what was that again ?? 40% ?? I doubt you’ll be capable of competing with me, so you either have to take a smaller percentage which hardly makes it worth your while or a cheaper wholesaler. Aha….. now you find someone to do it for $600 and you’re gonna charge $850. The main thing is…. if you compare apples to apples, this new wholesaler of yours won’t be making the sign for anything near the same quality or material-wise and you’re really giving the customer a sign made for about $150 for $850. You’re really moving along now, huh ??

Was I in the ballpark with that 40% or do you try to at least double your investment ?? Kinda hard to do if you can’t control anything. So, you broker guys go around looking for the cheapest guy in town that will sell you a sign and you eventually become known as scum.

Brokering can work, but as long as you sell and don’t try to compete against your own competition. Find one good shop and treat them fairly and you’ll do wonders for yourself… and them, but don’t pretend to be a sign shop and not lowballing if you really are. :banghead:

No Gino I get someone to make me that sign for $600.00 if I am going to "Bid" the job. Then I sell it for about $950. Now, I am not interested in that job.

I bring it to you. You know your going to get $950 for that job. I want 20% for bringing you the job in a neatly wrapped package with a Bow on it.

You don't have to do artwork you don't have to measure the job, you don't have to take pictures of the site etc..etc..etc..

Why am I not worth $190 to you then? You still get $460 for basically getting a job handed over to you. Seems fair to me.

Like I said before I deal in a very small niche. I like my niche. When it comes to a big job I want to bring it to a guy like you. I tell my client I am hiring you to do it. I get the art charge from them and 20% to you. Who loses??

[Adtechia]

Gino,

One other thing I have worked in Sign Shops for over 10 years before becoming a broker.If I had the desire I could simply go out buy an existing shop right now for $100,000. Complete turnkey operation with multiple printers, plotters, laminators etc....I know what to do. I know how to run a shop and my business.

I don't because, I don't want to deal with siting in a shop day in and day out.

So stop putting down Brokers because, Frankly without us. Most of you wouldn't be in business. We were your sales people and your operators. We are the guys that got tired of getting $10 an hour while you worked us to death. We were the guys barely making rent every month while you ate steak and went of vacation. We ordered your supplies, did your books, made the signs, quoted the jobs. Did all that while your were making the big bucks on our backs.

[Gino]

Gi
So stop putting down Brokers because, Frankly without us. Most of you wouldn't be in business. We were your sales people and your operators. We are the guys that got tired of getting $10 an hour while you worked us to death. We were the guys barely making rent every month while you ate steak and went of vacation. We ordered your supplies, did your books, made the signs, quoted the jobs. Did all that while your were making the big bucks on our backs.

I was actually going to let go of this one until you blurted this rubbish out. You couldn't let well enough alone.

The only brokers I've ever used were pure crap. Like I said, I don't like any brokers. You guys have single-handedly ruined this industry far worse then the newbies. At least they can be trained and pointed in the right direction. People such as yourself that say ridiculous things like you worked there for 10 years and can buy a business in a snap of the fingers for 100K are a dime a dozen. With your theories.... you aren't worth a red cent or you'd still be working there.

I personally never worked anyone to death. Any shop owner I know takes good care of his employees. We protect them from many things by giving them a good paycheck for their services and keeping them working. Your statements are a true indication of why I despise you and your kind. You want to be my friend and shove a bone my way for 20%.

You probably worked in shops and couldn't fend for yourself and now you're gonna try to prove to the world why you are so much smarter than the owners that have kicked you out of their shops for loafing and bad mouthing them. I've seen your kind so many times it makes me sick.... :Oops: there's a little upchuck in my throat............


Did my books, ordered my supplies, made my the signs all on your back. You are one mixed up F*** and you've just proved yourself over and over of what your kind are all about. You couldn't afford rent money, but yet you can go out and buy a business. Pfft.... on you.No wonder I 56499

[Adtechia]

I was actually going to let go of this one until you blurted this rubbish out. You couldn't let well enough alone.

The only brokers I've ever used were pure crap. Like I said, I don't like any brokers. You guys have single-handedly ruined this industry far worse then the newbies. At least they can be trained and pointed in the right direction. People such as yourself that say ridiculous things like you worked there for 10 years and can buy a business in a snap of the fingers for 100K are a dime a dozen. With your theories.... you aren't worth a red cent or you'd still be working there.

I personally never worked anyone to death. Any shop owner I know takes good care of his employees. We protect them from many things by giving them a good paycheck for their services and keeping them working. Your statements are a true indication of why I despise you and your kind. You want to be my friend and shove a bone my way for 20%.

You probably worked in shops and couldn't fend for yourself and now you're gonna try to prove to the world why you are so much smarter than the owners that have kicked you out of their shops for loafing and bad mouthing them. I've seen your kind so many times it makes me sick.... :Oops: there's a little upchuck in my throat............


Did my books, ordered my supplies, made my the signs all on your back. You are one mixed up F*** and you've just proved yourself over and over of what your kind are all about. You couldn't afford rent money, but yet you can go out and buy a business. Pfft.... on you.No wonder I 56499


I am successful because, I do what none of you could. Compete. I know my business I represent Companies that wouldn't even let you in the door. Yeah I could think of about 3 shops right now I could purchase with 1 phone call.

It seems to me your Jealous that my business model works better than yours.

[Pat White]

So stop putting down Brokers because, Frankly without us. Most of you wouldn't be in business.

I find that VERY hard to believe, considering we only sell to (1) broker and thank god he's nothing like you!

:thread

[Gino]

I am successful because, I do what none of you could. Compete. I know my business I represent Companies that wouldn't even let you in the door. Yeah I could think of about 3 shops right now I could purchase with 1 phone call.

It seems to me your Jealous that my business model works better than yours.


Yep.

You nailed it. I'm gonna go now. You really put me in my place. :Sleeping:

Ya know, this whole thing was totally stupid. Go buy your shop[s] and have a great day. See ya tomorrow.

.......and by the way.... there a quite a few places that won't let me in the door, but not for the reasons you think. :ROFLMAO:

[turbo]

it all goes back to another post that everyone got pissed at me.
When I was painting and crafting signs you could name your price and the other sign guys/girls in town would not try to under cut you because we were all PROFESSIONALS. I knew all the shops in town and they knew me. On many occasions doing tractor trailers I would bring in other Sign Pros to help.
The town I live in now is 125,000 people at last count 72 sign shops. Been here 10 years and know and work with only one other shop.
Something to be said about competition I guess.

[signrios]

now i can sell my printer, i don't have to wait days to get my order printed, i can get it locally!!!

here's just an example of how crazy prices are getting.

http://mcallen.en.craigslist.org/bfs/2012732702.html

[Colin]

^^^ A pair of 1x2 mags with digi print for $28.00?!?!

Kill me. Kill me now.

Did they get all their equipment for free?

[Adtechia]

now i can sell my printer, i don't have to wait days to get my order printed, i can get it locally!!!

here's just an example of how crazy prices are getting.

http://mcallen.en.craigslist.org/bfs/2012732702.html

We are offering Banners and Magnetics at Wholesale price! (The cheapest in the valley!) + FREE DESIGN SERVICE!

2-12x24 Full Color = $28
2-18x24 Full Color = $40

Ridiculous!

I won't even go anywhere near this cheap or expect anyone else too.

[Colin]

I won't even go anywhere near this cheap or expect anyone else too.

But expect the buyer to "go near" this price.

[Adtechia]

But expect the buyer to "go near" this price.

I am not sure what you meant by that Colin. In my Market I get $59 for 12 x 18 and $95 for 18 x 24.

Now I am in SW Florida in Lee County we are the Foreclosure Capital of the World currently. When I say I can't get a certain price I really mean I can't get it. The money is not here.

Maybe other Areas of the Country are doing better.

Here is a link to the prices I pay on Magnets from a Sign Shop I have a good relationship with that is for sale currently. http://www.vehicle-magnets.com/

Just some perspective on pricing in my market.

[Colin]

I am not sure what you meant by that Colin.

I meant that, thanks to this stupid-low pricing, signs have become a commodity, as opposed to a form of advertising with inherent value.

Those giving sigange away for the "time+materials" equation are dragging the whole industry down, and not charging for the inherent value of that form of advertising. It seems like the other forms of advertising (radio, newspapers, yellowpages, magazines, TV, etc) haven't been so stupid.

[Adtechia]

I meant that, thanks to this stupid-low pricing, signs have become a commodity, as opposed to a form of advertising with inherent value.

Those giving sigange away for the "time+materials" equation are dragging the whole industry down, and not charging for the inherent value of that form of advertising. It seems like the other forms of sdvertising (radio, newspapers, magazines, TV etc) haven't been so stupid.


I can see where your coming from Colin. Its hard for some to understand that. To me signage itself is the canvas for the Artwork. That is why I get mad when Sign Shops, Brokers and anyone else gives away the Art.

At the end of the Day the sign blank is a commodity the Artwork makes it Marketing.

[Gino]

<Twilight Zone Music> do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do


A little bit of deja vu there.............. :ROFLMAO: