Ignorant cheap people...this is driving me nuts!!!

[Premier Wraps]

Ok. First off...this whole getting outbid thing has been discussed a bunch around here. But I got another one for ya. Guy calls me yesterday on my cell out of the clear blue. Got my number from another good friend of mine. How close these two are, no idea. Any way he asks me about wrapping a Sprinter w/the high roof, but he says it's the normal length. No problem. Full? Half? Windows? etc, etc. Go through the part about the entire process. "Ya I'll drive to your place to do it as long as its inside." (max an hour away) Tell him not sure about square footage off the top of my head and that I'm out of the office. Tell him $2400 for a normal Ford/Chevy van, but I think the Sprinter is more. He seems shocked but says he'll send over a logo and his contact info via email and let's talk tomorrow (which is today). By the time I'm back in my office it's almost 6pm. I'm returning emails, going through voice mails, etc. I remember to look up a Sprinter. It's 300sqft+, thank God I told him it was an approximate number and I'd have a better figure tomorrow. So this morning I call him. He's got this little attitude in his voice right off the bat. Like he sees the caller ID and it upset him I had the nerve to call back. Before I can say good morning he says he called another place and they were $1700 and he's going with them. (HOLY S%$T I think). I tell him I actually called to let him know it was going to be $3000. He says sorry, got to go with this other guy. With the attitude he's dishing out I let him have the polite FU sales pitch...(probably not the smartest move, but hey, I'd already lost the job anyway plus he's an hour away). I tell him "Good luck with that other company. See if they're around in a year because when the channels are lifting, and the wraps failing don't call...." he hung up on me.

My question is. Who in their right friggen mind would wrap a Sprinter for less than $5 a sq ft?

This whole thing is getting unreal. Just last week I had a guy call me and asked if I priced match. I guess...never been asked that, sure let me give it shot...give it to me. Ford Ranger with a shell for $800 no roof. Seriously. Up yours. Again, layed into the whole FU sales pitch, except this guy started to understand my point. Still lost the job, but hey if I can at least educate someone about this stuff I won a small battle....I think anyway.

Sorry for the rant. I needed to vent. Especially to people that know what I'm talking about.

[Techman]

we have to get away from biddin on the phone. Our mission is to get them into the shop so we can seel them something..

Biddin on the phone is crazy ,They have no commitment..

[Fred Weiss]

we have to get away from biddin on the phone. Our mission is to get them into the shop so we can seel them something..

Biddin on the phone is crazy ,They have no commitment..

Totally agree. If they are just choosing you based on your bid without considering any differences in the design, materials, production and installation you are in for a lot of frustration. You must at some point sell them on the idea that you are the guy they want to do business with.

[jasonx]

Ok. First off...this whole getting outbid thing has been discussed a bunch around here. But I got another one for ya. Guy calls me yesterday on my cell out of the clear blue. Got my number from another good friend of mine. How close these two are, no idea. Any way he asks me about wrapping a Sprinter w/the high roof, but he says it's the normal length. No problem. Full? Half? Windows? etc, etc. Go through the part about the entire process. "Ya I'll drive to your place to do it as long as its inside." (max an hour away) Tell him not sure about square footage off the top of my head and that I'm out of the office. Tell him $2400 for a normal Ford/Chevy van, but I think the Sprinter is more. He seems shocked but says he'll send over a logo and his contact info via email and let's talk tomorrow (which is today). By the time I'm back in my office it's almost 6pm. I'm returning emails, going through voice mails, etc. I remember to look up a Sprinter. It's 300sqft+, thank God I told him it was an approximate number and I'd have a better figure tomorrow. So this morning I call him. He's got this little attitude in his voice right off the bat. Like he sees the caller ID and it upset him I had the nerve to call back. Before I can say good morning he says he called another place and they were $1700 and he's going with them. (HOLY S%$T I think). I tell him I actually called to let him know it was going to be $3000. He says sorry, got to go with this other guy. With the attitude he's dishing out I let him have the polite FU sales pitch...(probably not the smartest move, but hey, I'd already lost the job anyway plus he's an hour away). I tell him "Good luck with that other company. See if they're around in a year because when the channels are lifting, and the wraps failing don't call...." he hung up on me.

My question is. Who in their right friggen mind would wrap a Sprinter for less than $5 a sq ft?

This whole thing is getting unreal. Just last week I had a guy call me and asked if I priced match. I guess...never been asked that, sure let me give it shot...give it to me. Ford Ranger with a shell for $800 no roof. Seriously. Up yours. Again, layed into the whole FU sales pitch, except this guy started to understand my point. Still lost the job, but hey if I can at least educate someone about this stuff I won a small battle....I think anyway.

Sorry for the rant. I needed to vent. Especially to people that know what I'm talking about.

These aren't your customers. Go back over your business plan and clearly identify who your customers are and target them. We've been able to clearly identify our customers.

One good tip. If someone rings for a quote. Get them to email you all the details. Maybe send them an email to fill in all the blanks. Most people who are just price shopping won't give you the details. They aren't coming into your shop but are giving some time to supply you with information.

You now know where they are in the purchasing process.

Another tip when some one rings you asking only for a price, dont give them one. It devalues your work and shows its a commodoity. Build some barriers to give out your pricing. A wrap afterall is a high value job and we should treat it as such.

Your customers should be more concerned with all the benefits from the wrap and ensuring the job is done properlly so their return on investment is greatly increased.

[astro8]

These aren't your customers. Go back over your business plan and clearly identify who your customers are and target them. We've been able to clearly identify our customers.

One good tip. If someone rings for a quote. Get them to email you all the details. Maybe send them an email to fill in all the blanks. Most people who are just price shopping won't give you the details. They aren't coming into your shop but are giving some time to supply you with information.

You now know where they are in the purchasing process.

Another tip when some one rings you asking only for a price, dont give them one. It devalues your work and shows its a commodoity. Build some barriers to give out your pricing. A wrap afterall is a high value job and we should treat it as such.

Your customers should be more concerned with all the benefits from the wrap and ensuring the job is done properlly so their return on investment is greatly increased.

Good advice..we don't give out prices over the phone either...if they can't take the time to email you the specs for the job so we can give an accurate quote...we don't bother with them.

[Jillbeans]

Let the other people price themselves right out of business.
Unfortunately they are also doing irreparable damage to our industry by giving away their work.
(can't understand the reasoning behind buying very expensive technology then pricing jobs at pennies on the dollar just to keep those machines running)
I would avoid the razorblade smile FU thing, you don't want to totally alienate them when they come crawling back asking for you to do it right.
Love....Jill

[andy]

My question is. Who in their right friggen mind would wrap a Sprinter for less than $5 a sq ft?

Someone who bought a printer and started a sign shop without doing the boring tasks first. Robust business plans, accurate overhead costings and properly worked out profit generating price strategies are dull businessy type things which only nerds and accountants do.

Me, I want to print big sticky pictures cos it's wayyyyy cool. Vinyl is cheap so hell, there is loads of money in it- I know this cos the local sign guy charges a load of money for his vinyl stuff... way more than I can buy a WHOLE roll for. Anyways, I don't know what a business plan is and I'm useless at maths so I can't do all that boring stuff even if I wanted to.

That's how I think a lot of people think about their new business before they start printing or cutting vinyl and there is NO realistic chance of educating this type of person on what the word PROFIT really means and how it impacts their lifestyle.

Over the years I've lost count of how many aggressive new shops have limped off stage and died. Low prices DO NOT win you market share, they DO NOT put your competition our of business and they certainly DO NOT buy you customer loyalty.

If your competitors are running around quoting at cost or less it's purely a matter of time before they die- what you've got to do is make sure that you make a profit on everything you do and leave them to commit suicide on their own.

Jill is right, these cretins take a perfectly viable industry and stab it in the back but it's something you have to learn to live with.

If someone phoned up and said "hey do this job for free and give me $100" you would think they were mental... if your competitors don't know if their prices are profitable they are saying "yes" to this question every time they undercut you. If nothing else this gives you some comfort.

[mikefine]

I have noticed the term "wrap" has become more generic in its meaning describing vehicle graphics. I frequently have customers request wrap quotes, but they were really just looking for standard vinyl lettering. Are you sure you are all on the same page as to the type of work requested? Also, since you did not ask for his phone number, that is indicative that you are not asking enough questions in scoping out the job inquiry.

[SignTech]

I am with the rest on phone quoting. I don't do "ballpark", "approximates" etc ... I do formal hard copy (email or in person) quotes after full research.

If the customers gets upset then let them. If you are being underbid by 30 40 50% obviously there is a problem. That's a huge difference.

I have observed and read 1000 time right here on s101 that this the current wave and has been for about 2 years now. Not much pride, quality and craftsmanship goes into the daisies poping up all over who claim to make signs for cheap. Honestly they won't last long ....... there IS still a market for customers that want good quality, SERVICE, and consistency ...... I wouldn't have believed this 7 months ago.

Stick to your guns, play the market and don't let cheapo customers like this last one deduce your abilities, intelligence or anything else.

I just had a customer want (2) 4x6 custom shape 3/4" double sided sign faces RTG .... he wants to install one of them between two 6"x6" posts and the other on the building fascia. He argued all day long he could paint the posts even though they are pressure treated right away. This is a flooring guy Tile/Marble ....... he swore the paint will hold up, was dead against cedar ........ why? cause everyone wants quick, cheap fix's ... but they want quality and it should last forever. Then he cheaps out more calls me back and wants to get .080 aluminum and rivet them to the posts lol ........ told me to re-qoute ....... and I did .......... $300.00 more ........... he was shocked. He forgot that now he wants (3) signs and aluminum .080 ......... look this business I have found is filled with all kinds ........... mostly cheap DYI morons ........ you just have to weed through the junk ......... I lose a lot of jobs because if my aggravation meter peaks with certain customers I walk away ............. not something I suggest for everyone, just my choice.

[Techman]

Our mission is to find out what their pain is. What is making them call you in the first place. Then you amplify that pain,,Make them squirm and make them mentally suffer if they do not act. Then you do offer them the solution that only you understand. Then get your close with a good profit.

That all means getting them into your shop somehow. Set appointments. Don't even talk about price or any discounts or anything else that will frame their mind about money. If you talk money on the phone you die.

[Browner]

I have noticed the term "wrap" has become more generic in its meaning describing vehicle graphics. I frequently have customers request wrap quotes, but they were really just looking for standard vinyl lettering.
I'm finding this more and more myself. Some guy asked me for a "wrap" for his skid-steer. All he really wanted was his company name on the lift arms. Another guy asked for pricing on a "full wrap", but went on to explain that to him, that just meant his company name and phone number on the door, and some bullet points on the truck cab :banghead:

[Rick]

Lots of good advice here...

This is kinda the same issue as Josh Loring's.... you are doing business where close to 17,000,000 people live. In that environment, there will always be someone cheaper than you if you are pricing to stay in business. It's a price shoppers paradise if a person is willing to drive a little for a cheaper price. You also might be suffering from the IE syndrome that everything is cheaper here than in OC and LA. Since you probably can't compete with that type of pricing and stay in business, you have to market your services and quality better and not sweat the cheap hacks...

[kraigsnowden]

I took a wrap class when I first got into the digital world from cutting. I must have gotten in at the tail end of it, because you could still charge about $12 - $14 sq. ft. when I was there...that was in 2007. Seems like just lately it's been downhill, I don't even attempt to compete w/ "wraps" anymore.

On another note, had a customer that wanted me to explain why my price was so much higher than Vista Print. I told her that if her ONLY shopping reason was for price, then she was wasting her time with me...because I can't do FREE stuff for all my customers like they do. I told her that what they charge extra for is all standard stuff we do out the door. If she doesn't need design help, ordering help, customer service, or installation, then she might as well go w/ them, but if she wanted help and a good product in the end, she needed to go local, even if it wasn't with me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, let those kind of "customers" (if we can even call them that) go, and just hang onto your good ones that don't haggle every job you do. The ones that want just "cheap" aren't worth doing business with.

[Craig Sjoquist]

only thing I give price on phone is my window splash... and it's at a low price .... but what ya know there's a some shops printing at $5 per sq ft also ... does not understand that ... when it cost me $10 per sq ft wholesale ... plain confussed

but as far as those who think that a good deal is on the other side let it go quick not worth it

[Premier Wraps]

Lots of good advice here...

This is kinda the same issue as Josh Loring's.... you are doing business where close to 17,000,000 people live. In that environment, there will always be someone cheaper than you if you are pricing to stay in business. It's a price shoppers paradise if a person is willing to drive a little for a cheaper price. You also might be suffering from the IE syndrome that everything is cheaper here than in OC and LA. Since you probably can't compete with that type of pricing and stay in business, you have to market your services and quality better and not sweat the cheap hacks...

I'm in the IE (Fontana) because I do a TON of truck lettering. Have a large fleet account that pays for all it's own material, a full time employee to take care of just that account and it pays for the lease payment on all my equipment. Been this way going on 2 years. With easy another year to go. Plus my rent is dirt firggen cheap. Plenty of truck parking, etc. Actually this guy calling me was from South OC (lives in Cota de Coza) actually. So it's someone down there in that area. Either he's full of crap or he actually did get someone to whore them selves out. Unreal.

[Premier Wraps]

Good advice..we don't give out prices over the phone either...if they can't take the time to email you the specs for the job so we can give an accurate quote...we don't bother with them.

I'm digging this idea. Gunna start using it on Monday. I'm averaging anywhere from 2-3 quotes a day. (even had 14 one day) All rough estimates. And need to see the vehicle before giving them an accurate number. I like whole send me an email idea.

[houseofgrafix]

I have noticed the term "wrap" has become more generic in its meaning describing vehicle graphics. I frequently have customers request wrap quotes, but they were really just looking for standard vinyl lettering. Are you sure you are all on the same page as to the type of work requested? Also, since you did not ask for his phone number, that is indicative that you are not asking enough questions in scoping out the job inquiry.


Yep this happen yesterday to me.

Guy calls.. Hey I need my truck wrapped today with no design.
I said ok.. 10,000 bucks

He was said just for the doors in 1 color?
I laughed

[Dice]

I hate people

[jjwstar]

those Mofcker......i have been telling you guys all the same siht....they just do it to make payment on the printers & equipment. i have seen many bastar ds here in the socal area selling those price. everything is HALF the price i quote them. i dont understand how the fck they are doing it.

[miguelon.lizarraga]

those Mofcker......i have been telling you guys all the same siht....they just do it to make payment on the printers & equipment. i have seen many bastar ds here in the socal area selling those price. everything is HALF the price i quote them. i dont understand how the fck they are doing it.

What I dont understand is why the mods dont catch all this cussing codes...

[Techman]

What I dont understand is why the mods dont catch all this cussing codes...

Because he typed so the filters don't catch them all. It obvious when they do this they intend to overcome the filters..

[Techman]

The basis for all of the above discussion is in the presentation.

No one is using the "P's" principle.

Pivot, Profile, present

[sardocs]

What I don't understand is how someone who can't speak or write without using profanity would even think they should be worth more than bottom dollar.

[QualitySigns]

My rule in this regard is simple: Never, ever give ballpark prices - on the phone, in person, via e-mail - never. I tell my customers that it depends on what they would like to see on their sign; let's talk about that first. I then begin asking questions. In the process I make it clear that neither of us likes surprises, therefore let's base the price on an actual design not guesswork, etc., etc., blah, blah - you get the picture. No ballparks!

Oh, and by the way, I would lose the FU sales pitch; you have no idea how many people those customers may influence.

[Rick]

Forget phoning around for estimates, This is the way to look for cheap wraps...

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/med/1364510889.html

[stickasteve]

The economy has people doing crazy things. People aren't themselves adn most are starting businesses because they lost their regular jobs. It takes a skill or talent to start a concept for a business, then intelligence and inspiration to get it started, then hard work, extreme resilliance, determination and a lot of money to keep it going. A person who is missing a few of those has to either hire people to fill those spots, or will not make it in business so they call us because we are a phenominal way to advertise. Wraps and lettering andf the internet are taking over advertising. You can't blame people for being ignorant. Blame society and the media. Most people are uneducated and closed minded. Those are pennysaver shoppers and not worth a talented, profitable, educated businesses time. You put your time out there for customers, they have to trust you will do the right job and the right thing.

We as sign/wrap businesses have the right to be a step above sign shops of the past. We put countless hours into art and don't get paid nearly what we should. Economy has a LOT to do with that.

[rambo555]

5$ is not even worth getting my large hinder out of bed for. I hate to say it, but these people likely think they are doing themselves a favor. I once did a wrap for my best friend. I only charged him the cost of the material and supplies. I only would do that for my family and very close friends. What he doesn't know is that it was my first bug I had wrapped (and hopefully last one). Even with the cheapest materials, I wouldn't be able to keep my doors open.

[k6media]

You know what it probably was in the end. Someone describing to you what they were looking for as a "wrap" and really they don't truly understand what a wrap is. So you are quoting on full graphics covering the entire vehicle in full colour, and your competitor is doing potentially just vinyl graphics or a combination of print and digital.

I find a lot of times I am that off on an estimate is that we aren't comparing apples to apples and that is where the dramatic different is.

If however they are charging $1700 for a sprinter.. well then they aren't very bright...

[zapblam]

Ever shop around for the cheaper price on wraping film and oedered from there instead? Ever seek the best price for the digital printer you decided to buy and went with that? Ever find a way better on sign white lexan and went with that? Cant blame the customer for shopping around. We all do it. I do agree that it is the under cut businesses that create this environment. Just stick to your prices and dont become an undercutter yourself. Unless it lands you a bigger contract.

[btropical.com]

Got my number from another good friend of mine <<<<<<<<<<<<< tell friend to give out my shop phone number from now on and ""Thanks for Nothing ""

[mark galoob]

you know, its a totally different world we live in now and all the rules of business are evolving into something totally different than we are used to. if you want to survive then you must evolve with it.

whats wrong w/ taking a few jobs here and there at less profit. look at walmart. those guys are huge and they make very little profit on each item.

my point is you dont have to give away the shop, but you also have to be realistic specifically in this market. if your stuck on the past and the glory of the past and refuse to evolve, the smart shops who have several profit centers, some of them produce higher profit % than others but all produce something, even if it is just to cover a machine sitting idle, is not stupid, its smart business. maybe those guys are giving wraps away at low profit and have other stuff they do that makes bank?

ps i also understand you get what you pay for, and usually the lower cost jobs stink. i see them all the time and laugh at them cause they totally wasted their $$$$ on a wrap that does not work...


mark galoob

[mgieske]

Assuming this prospect truly knows what a wrap is- I'm surprised your chasing? Sounds like you're busy enough to dismiss this guy. I would.

[Techman]

look at walmart. those guys are huge and they make very little profit on each item.

Not a good analogy at all. Walmart is a discounter selling commodities..

Wraps are not a discountable item. They are not commodities. they are a high cost item made by large amounts of labor and expensive machinery. They are not in the commodity arena even though too may are selling them as such just to pay for the machines. Very false economy.
Those who price them as commodities are selling themselves way too short. And, they are setting low bench marks for the entire industry.

But the post is correct on the evolving part. If we start getting ourselves more intelligent on the marketing which includes how to sell something we will make more money...

I must add this.. Some time ago I decided to market appeal to those who are least affected by the economy.. It is paying of now. My businesses are up in sales and my income is up in larger amounts.

[signmeup]

I think wraps are a commodity. The printing can be done by most anyone who has been trained to use the machine.....someone who's never even seen a wrap can print one. The installation ....same thing......it's like laying floor tile in the way it makes no difference what colour the tiles are. It's the design that requires talent and creativity. You should pursue that aspect of the business for the extra value you can add to the wrap. Convince the customer that he needs you if he wants a superior result from his wrap.

[BobM]

You can only price your product when you know what it is you're selling. You can only make a deal with and sell to a person. BUYERS ARE LIARS.

[BobM]

Three rules of salesmenship.

You can only sell a product when you know what it is you're selling.

You can only sell your product and services to a person.

BUYERS ARE LIARS.

[mark galoob]

wiccapedia: "A commodity is some good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_(economics)) for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualitative_data) differentiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_differentiation) across a market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market). It is a product that is the same no matter who produces it, such as petroleum, notebook paper, or milk...One of the characteristics of a commodity good is that its price is determined as a function of its market as a whole."

wraps are a commodity

mark galoob

[signmeup]

Good post Mark.

[sdcali619]

wiccapedia: "A commodity is some good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_(economics)) for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualitative_data) differentiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_differentiation) across a market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market). It is a product that is the same no matter who produces it, such as petroleum, notebook paper, or milk...One of the characteristics of a commodity good is that its price is determined as a function of its market as a whole."

wraps are a commodity

mark galoob

ok so his wording was wrong, I still don't see how you can compare a one off designed car graphic to walmart?. They don't create anything original at walmart, they purchase things in huge quantities and sell them to your or I cheaper. I don't know of anyone that just has panels laying around their shop ready to put onto the next car that comes through the door. If you do not have a consistent price point for customers what are you going to do when you give one a great deal, he recommends you and you decide to charge his buddy the "busy day" price.

P.S. Forgot to add that car wraps most definitely are "different." I can be 98% sure that the place that offered the 1700 is not offering the same product I am. Even if by some miracle they have a cousin who steals vinyl out of the back of truck and gives him a discount, the labor to correctly do the job would be putting the other guy out of business. unless he is the size of wal-mart, AKA the biggest car wrapper in the US, then he has no business offering that price for that job to be done correctly.

[Techman]

wraps are a commodity

Sorry. But,,
Wraps are only a commodity if you allow it to be. There is more to a wrap than just some plastic and some ink. They are the product of design and thought and then technical application.

If a wrap was just a commodity then why is there such a wide price range? A commodity as defined above is something such as a water, soft drinks, paper supplies, etc. You cannot walk into a custom wrap shop and pick one off a shelf.

So, good try. But, a custom wrap does not fit into the commodity market unless one allows it so. Develop a marketing plan out of the commodity arena and make it work.

Otherwise live in the land of price per foot and suffer with all the rest who will not allow themselves to think out of the box and continue to price per foot..

[signmeup]

I think the point being missed is that wrap design is not a commodity. If your customer has paid for a good design and is all ready to go, he can shop it around to any number of competent shops for a quote.

[Jon Aston]

wiccapedia: "A commodity is some good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_%28economics%29) for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualitative_data) differentiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_differentiation) across a market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market). It is a product that is the same no matter who produces it, such as petroleum, notebook paper, or milk...One of the characteristics of a commodity good is that its price is determined as a function of its market as a whole."

wraps are a commodity

mark galoob

What?!

I don't know how you, or anyone here could post that definition AND reach that conclusion. There are wraps that meet marketing objectives - by producing results... and there are wraps that don't.

The problem is that customers are ignorant (uninformed) and therefore perceive wraps as being commodities... with price as the differentiating factor. That's a marketing problem, with a marketing solution: Demonstrate higher value by demonstrating superior results...


Consult with the customer. What are their marketing objectives? How will they measure success? Phone calls? Leads generated? Invoiced sales?
Follow up with your customers, in the weeks and months that follow an installation. Is the wrap helping them meet their objectives? If yes, get results-focused testimonials for your website, brochures, future campaigns. If not, then you have an opportunity to help them surpass their objectives... sell them a better sign, or window graphics, or whatever.
Feature those results-focused testimonials in your marketing. If you're going to invite prospective customers into your showroom for consultation, get some of those babies on display.

Soapbox anyone? :)

[Sticky Signs]

You know what it probably was in the end. Someone describing to you what they were looking for as a "wrap" and really they don't truly understand what a wrap is. So you are quoting on full graphics covering the entire vehicle in full colour, and your competitor is doing potentially just vinyl graphics or a combination of print and digital.

I find a lot of times I am that off on an estimate is that we aren't comparing apples to apples and that is where the dramatic different is.

If however they are charging $1700 for a sprinter.. well then they aren't very bright...


I'm with K6 on this. the average joe does not understand that shop A is selling apples and shop B is selling oranges. There's a big difference between intermediate vinyl and high performance however the client doesn't know this, doesn't have to know this and doesn't want to know this. i like to take the time to educate my (potential) clients and give them options - not to many options though cuz that usually leeds to confusion. I'm not the most expensive shop in town and I'm certainly not the cheapest. I always explain what I'm going to do, how I'm going to do it and the benefits of why I'm doing it this way. Some clients will still go with elcheapo but the smart ones quickly realize that I'm not out to screw them. They see that I know what I'm talking about and take pride in what I do. They see value in my product and value in our working relationship. These are the clients I want and they usually come back for more.
The point? Make sure the client is comparing apples to apples and take a minute to educate them.

[Techman]

Soapbox anyone? :)

Jon,

I am beginning to think that some (too many) have no desire to really understand what you and I and a few others are trying to say to them. Or they have no clue and simply are at level one of total incompetence. That is they do not know what they do not know.

They come up with some off the wall strange interpretations, they post fantasy as fact, and they completely dismiss any pointers as blather.

Today I just used my 4P theory on a caller who wanted the cheapest possible price they could get. After finding the trigger point from the "profile" this person came right in and eventually paid what i asked. This marketing stuff works.

[gbarker]

All I ask is keep this in mind when you are dealing with a wholesaler. We have the same problem but it's from sign shops... How the heck did printed banners get to 1.50/sf? The cheap guys that don't give a crap about quality or customer service. Just food for thought.

[Mosh]

Simple, they like your work and go with you, or go somewhere else. No reason to get all fired up over it. I used to get mad when I lost a job or did even get a chance to bid on it.
You can't let that control yor life. I used to and now I am a raging alcoholic because of it. Just let it go and worry about the next job. Go with the flow man!!!!

[gbarker]

Simple, they like your work and go with you, or go somewhere else. No reason to get all fired up over it. I used to get mad when I lost a job or did even get a chance to bid on it.
You can't let that control yor life. I used to and now I am a raging alcoholic because of it. Just let it go and worry about the next job. Go with the flow man!!!!

Mosh, Maybe that's why I've been drinking more... I'm not to fired up about it. I know my work is good and I can charge appropriately for it. I was just reminding folks it goes all the way around. I have found myself not questioning prices for almost anything, doesn't mean I agree with them. When I buy something it's more of a personal question "Is this item worth that much to me?"

[signmeup]

Follow up with your customers, in the weeks and months that follow an installation. Is the wrap helping them meet their objectives? If yes, get results-focused testimonials for your website, brochures, future campaigns. If not, then you have an opportunity to help them surpass their objectives... sell them a better sign, or window graphics, or whatever.

Jon, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. If you don't get them the results they expect, they will happily fork over more cash to you so you can get the results they expected this time? That doesn't sound quite right. It's beem my experience that if you fail to deliver the first time, you get a chance (if you're lucky) to make it right for free or you'll never see a dime from that customer again.

[Techman]

If you don't get them the results they expect, they will happily fork over more cash to you so you can get the results they expected this time?That doesn't sound quite right. It's beem my experience that if you fail to deliver the first time, you get a chance (if you're lucky) to make it right for free or you'll never see a dime from that customer again.

Wrong focus..


Yes they will fork over more money.
Just because a product doesn't get results does not mean you did them wrong. All it means is that the product did not fit or reach the right demographics. If that is true then you have a chance to redo the product to reach those demographics that produce results.

[signmeup]

Wrong focus..


Yes they will fork over more money.
Just because a product doesn't get results does not mean you did them wrong. All it means is that the product did not fit or reach the right demographics. If that is true then you have a chance to redo the product to reach those demographics that produce results.
Jon,

Isn't it my job to sell the customer products that will perform by reaching the right demographic?

I'm pretty sure my customer would be pretty dissapointed if the $3000 wrap I did for them didn't get results. I'm not sure it would be so easy to convince them that forking over more cash for a sign or window splash would make things all better.

[signmeup]

You know what it probably was in the end. Someone describing to you what they were looking for as a "wrap" and really they don't truly understand what a wrap is. So you are quoting on full graphics covering the entire vehicle in full colour, and your competitor is doing potentially just vinyl graphics or a combination of print and digital.

I find a lot of times I am that off on an estimate is that we aren't comparing apples to apples and that is where the dramatic different is.

This just happened to me on some flat signs. The guy stops me on the street from his car and asks for a quote on 4 x 4 foot Alupanel "for sale" signs. I take his card and email him a quote. He tells me my price is way too high. A couple of weeks later I see new signs up on his place..... 3 x 3 coroplast with red Ariel. Well sure..... I can do that for a lot less than a 4x4 Alupanel sign.

[Fitch]

Now THAT'S what pi$$es me off... sorry to the other thread about profanities.

"This just happened to me on some flat signs. The guy stops me on the street from his car and asks for a quote on 4 x 4 foot Alupanel "for sale" signs. I take his card and email him a quote. He tells me my price is way too high. A couple of weeks later I see new signs up on his place..... 3 x 3 coroplast with red Ariel. Well sure..... I can do that for a lot less than a 4x4 Alupanel sign. "

Seems the person "best" able to convince is the person that gets the job. Usually relates to $$$$. Never apples with apples.

Also seems to me that EVERYONE misses out, the client (on good product), the opponent (who missed out on the job), the community who has to look at this ****e, and the guy who got the job because he thinks because he got the job and made (some) money he is "the greatest designer in the world" and will continue to pump out second rate nephew art garbage that we all will cringe at, because he sees himself as successful - why change?

Sorry folks but each day should bring new challenges and a desire to grow in design, reputation, quality, ability, humility, and open mindeness to focus on a solution to customer needs - rather than just a small profit on a substandard job.

It's a responsibility as a group to open our mouths and educate those that are bringing the standard down... even if it gets us off side with them. Particularly in forums such as this. Teach... learn... educate all sides and we all win. Sometimes the standard has to be set so high that the thought process to new entrants has to be "I could never do that" rather than the current "I could do better than that" . Based on current lowballing price gauging, "ruin the industry so long as I am making money" (often those without reliant responsibilities such as a wife and family, mortgage, health etc) it may be the only way that we can ALL make a half decent living and say once again that it is a profession.


WOW ... now THAT'S a rant ...lol

[jfiscus]

Even your quoted $3000 is less than we would do a LWB sprinter high-roof for. Wraps are readily available, so you know customers are shopping around. You are selling the design, anyone can print & (some can) install a decent looking wrap; a good wrap is a rolling billboard so to speak, and brings in business/revenue to the customer.

[signmeup]

Even your quoted $3000 is less than we would do a LWB sprinter high-roof for. Wraps are readily available, so you know customers are shopping around. You are selling the design, anyone can print & (some can) install a decent looking wrap; a good wrap is a rolling billboard so to speak, and brings in business/revenue to the customer.
That's what I was thinking. You'll have to excuse me though as I don't even do wraps but it seemed to me I could purchase the wrap from a shop like Merritt and apply it with zero design talent. I think Techman gives some great advice. It's in the design part that I think is the only hope for a "real" wrap shop. People shop for price and most don't know quality from a hole in the ground. I guess you have to figure out how to attract the right customers.

[Jon Aston]

Jon,

Isn't it my job to sell the customer products that will perform by reaching the right demographic?

I'm pretty sure my customer would be pretty disappointed if the $3000 wrap I did for them didn't get results. I'm not sure it would be so easy to convince them that forking over more cash for a sign or window splash would make things all better.

I think your job is to learn/develop and continuously hone best practices in marketing and advertising design - and to use those to create measurable value for your customers.

The marketing strategy proposed above was based on the assumption that whoever is reading it isn't already doing it. Based on that assumption: today, you have no idea what results are realistic - and you're therefore not giving customers unrealistic expectations. You're simply asking the customer to state their objectives, encouraging them to measure results with some simple metrics, and following up.

If the wrap isn't producing the desired results, it's still helping them get closer to achieving their objectives (or should be). By following-up, aren't you demonstrating your interest and commitment to helping them succeed, as any good marketing partner would? By identifying and proposing additional tactics, or tactical changes, aren't you adding value to the customer's relationship with your company?

How many of your competitors are doing that? Not many... and more likely none.

As you repeat the process with customers, over time - gathering data, learning, and sharing their results (through results-focused testimonials)... you will (naturally, organically) begin creating realistic expectations for new customers. But even the (early in the process) customers, whose wrap didn't completely fulfill their objectives will be excellent sources of testimonials: Eg. "Signmeup takes a deep interest in helping you achieve measurable results. He follows up, and consistently brings creative solutions to the table, to help you achieve your marketing objectives. We wouldn't be where we are today without his help."

Sorry to be so long winded. I hope that makes sense.

[Techman]

3 x 3 coroplast with red Ariel. Well sure..... I can do that for a lot less than a 4x4 Alupanel sign.

This is the perfect example of why we must use the 4 P's. If this client had been properly profiled then this even would never have happened.

pivot profile praise prompt.

Isn't it my job to sell the customer products that will perform by reaching the right demographic?

If the profile is correct then your chance of hitting his needs is better.


The worst possible conversation goes like this.

How much is a wrap?
It's only 1995 and I can do it tomorrow

Ok, but joe's wrapper can do it for 1700.
Ya, I know, but I use the best materials and I have the best installer.

Well joe's guy is pretty good too!.
etc.. ad nauseum.

This is the commodity debate. Get out of there. Get into the educated conversation and you will never have to play lets make a deal. You get to play who wants to be a millionaire.

If there is anyone that needs a marketing consultant it is persons who posted on this thread.

[Jon Aston]

This just happened to me on some flat signs. The guy stops me on the street from his car and asks for a quote on 4 x 4 foot Alupanel "for sale" signs. I take his card and email him a quote. He tells me my price is way too high. A couple of weeks later I see new signs up on his place..... 3 x 3 coroplast with red Ariel. Well sure..... I can do that for a lot less than a 4x4 Alupanel sign.

Here's the thing. Based on hundred's of similar experiences posted in signs101.com, and that I hear early-on from sign companies in my consulting practice... This is predictable behaviour from (I'll hazard a guess) 80% of prospective customers.

When you think about it, can't most things that are predictable in business be managed?

You can blame customers. You can get angry and frustrated. You can vent and complain. But none of that will change their behaviour. To manage the situation, you have to change your own behaviour. Ask yourself "What could I have done differently?".

The guy stops you and asks you for an Alupanel "for sale" sign. So that's what you quoted him on. You let him control your sales process - by not asking questions that would further qualify the opportunity:

Eg.


"Why Alupanel?"
"How long do you expect this for sale sign to be in service?"
"What's your budget for the project?"

Had you further qualified the opportunity, I'm willing to bet you might have proposed a similar solution to the one he purchased from your competitor.

[signmeup]

This is the perfect example of why we must use the 4 P's. If this client had been properly profiled then this even would never have happened.

pivot profile praise prompt.



If the profile is correct then your chance of hitting his needs is better.


The worst possible conversation goes like this.

How much is a wrap?
It's only 1995 and I can do it tomorrow

Ok, but joe's wrapper can do it for 1700.
Ya, I know, but I use the best materials and I have the best installer.

Well joe's guy is pretty good too!.
etc.. ad nauseum.

This is the commodity debate. Get out of there. Get into the educated conversation and you will never have to play lets make a deal. You get to play who wants to be a millionaire.

If there is anyone that needs a marketing consultant is persons who posted on this thread.


See....you were doing great until you added that last line. That condesending remark is just not required. You give some good advise on this forum but consitently blow it by adding snide little diggs like that. To start with, YOU posted on this thread as did Jon Aston....a consultant. Now YOU may need a marketing consultant, and I may need one too but I doubt Jon does.

You may not intend to but much of what you post makes you seem like an arrogant know-it-all. Like the little line in your signature..."The best can tutorial ever written" or some such nonsence. You screwed a can kit together....get over yourself already.

[Techman]

The guy stops you and asks you for an Alupanel "for sale" sign. So that's what you quoted him on. You let him control your sales process - by not asking questions that would further qualify the opportunity:

Eg.

* "Why Alupanel?"
* "How long do you expect this for sale sign to be in service?"
* "What's your budget for the project?"

Had you further qualified the opportunity, I'm willing to bet you might have proposed a similar solution to the one he purchased from your competitor.

A perfect example of why and how to profile the prospect.

[Techman]

See....you were doing great until you added that last line. That condesending remark is just not required. You give some good advise on this forum but consitently blow it by adding snide little diggs like that. To start with, YOU posted on this thread as did Jon Aston....a consultant. Now YOU may need a marketing consultant, and I may need one too but I doubt Jon does.

Sorry about that . But its not a dig at all. You merely took it as a dig.
I have already been there and got the trophy for feeling like a victim when something was pointed out to me. Lots of those that felt like digs but were actually the truth. Now instead of taking things personal I play the victor and glean out anything I can from any source about marketing.
Take it for whats its worth.

[signmeup]

Here's the thing. Based on hundred's of similar experiences posted in signs101.com, and that I hear early-on from sign companies in my consulting practice... This is predictable behaviour from (I'll hazard a guess) 80% of prospective customers.

When you think about it, can't most things that are predictable in business be managed?

You can blame customers. You can get angry and frustrated. You can vent and complain. But none of that will change their behaviour. To manage the situation, you have to change your own behaviour. Ask yourself "What could I have done differently?".

The guy stops you and asks you for an Alupanel "for sale" sign. So that's what you quoted him on. You let him control your sales process - by not asking questions that would further qualify the opportunity:

Eg.


"Why Alupanel?"
"How long do you expect this for sale sign to be in service?"
"What's your budget for the project?"
Had you further qualified the opportunity, I'm willing to bet you might have proposed a similar solution to the one he purchased from your competitor.
I fully agree Jon. I wasn't angry at the customer. I blew it.
Although he did specifically tell me he didn't want coro. He figured he could re-use the signs over the years if they were good quality. You just can't win them all but it probably would have gone a lot better if I had him drop by my shop to talk over some options for the job. As has been mentioned in this post several times...he had zero invested in the process.

[Kentucky Wraps]

I have noticed the term "wrap" has become more generic in its meaning describing vehicle graphics. I frequently have customers request wrap quotes, but they were really just looking for standard vinyl lettering. Are you sure you are all on the same page as to the type of work requested? Also, since you did not ask for his phone number, that is indicative that you are not asking enough questions in scoping out the job inquiry.

PRECISELY! IF you can get them to show you something of an idea they had for their vehicle (rarely happens) you find out they are only envisioning die cut vinyl on the side and maybe thier back window perfed.
But it's like pulling teeth to get what they want outta them.

[Kentucky Wraps]

those Mofcker......i have been telling you guys all the same siht....they just do it to make payment on the printers & equipment. i have seen many bastar ds here in the socal area selling those price. everything is HALF the price i quote them. i dont understand how the fck they are doing it.

There are a lot of "Cheap" install crews that tag-team wraps for shops all the time. Like a pack of freinds or brothers, knock it out in an 8 hour day or less and go home and crack the 12 pack and split the $800. The Printer barely lifts a finger and still get's a few hundred out of it AND get's to put the photos in his gallery on his site. BOoooooo

[CentralSigns]

And then came the Frod wraps, and Lo-one Certified. @ $2 per square foot and you will get 500 of them. This was stated a few days ago in another thread.

[MITCHATEXOTIC]

The basis for all of the above discussion is in the presentation.

No one is using the "P's" principle.

Pivot, Profile, present
I have always heard that as the 7 p's of production.....**** poor planning produces **** poor product(or profits)

[iSign Wraps]

The first thing is I decided was to not price over the phone. 9 times out of ten if they call for just a price it is another sign shop price hunting because they don't know how or want to beat your price. I tell them up front to bring the vehicle so I can give them an exact quote. Most common answer is I will bring it by tomorrow and hang up before you can get a name and number. The guys shopping for that cheap wrap with no artwork... I tell them what they will get for that kind of money and send them to the hack shop that is wrapping for $5 a sqr. ft. That will help that shop go broke faster so they will close their doors and go away. Personally I like a little competition from a good shop that I have respect for but I will flip burgers before I will wrap for $5 a foot. For the hacks doing $5 wraps, learn how to do it right or don't do it at all.

:Oops: double post...

[iSign Wraps]

Ok. First off...this whole getting outbid thing has been discussed a bunch around here. But I got another one for ya. Guy calls me yesterday on my cell out of the clear blue. Got my number from another good friend of mine. How close these two are, no idea. Any way he asks me about wrapping a Sprinter w/the high roof, but he says it's the normal length. No problem. Full? Half? Windows? etc, etc. Go through the part about the entire process. "Ya I'll drive to your place to do it as long as its inside." (max an hour away) Tell him not sure about square footage off the top of my head and that I'm out of the office. Tell him $2400 for a normal Ford/Chevy van, but I think the Sprinter is more. He seems shocked but says he'll send over a logo and his contact info via email and let's talk tomorrow (which is today). By the time I'm back in my office it's almost 6pm. I'm returning emails, going through voice mails, etc. I remember to look up a Sprinter. It's 300sqft+, thank God I told him it was an approximate number and I'd have a better figure tomorrow. So this morning I call him. He's got this little attitude in his voice right off the bat. Like he sees the caller ID and it upset him I had the nerve to call back. Before I can say good morning he says he called another place and they were $1700 and he's going with them. (HOLY S%$T I think). I tell him I actually called to let him know it was going to be $3000. He says sorry, got to go with this other guy. With the attitude he's dishing out I let him have the polite FU sales pitch...(probably not the smartest move, but hey, I'd already lost the job anyway plus he's an hour away). I tell him "Good luck with that other company. See if they're around in a year because when the channels are lifting, and the wraps failing don't call...." he hung up on me.

My question is. Who in their right friggen mind would wrap a Sprinter for less than $5 a sq ft?

This whole thing is getting unreal. Just last week I had a guy call me and asked if I priced match. I guess...never been asked that, sure let me give it shot...give it to me. Ford Ranger with a shell for $800 no roof. Seriously. Up yours. Again, layed into the whole FU sales pitch, except this guy started to understand my point. Still lost the job, but hey if I can at least educate someone about this stuff I won a small battle....I think anyway.

Sorry for the rant. I needed to vent. Especially to people that know what I'm talking about.

The first thing is I decided was to not price over the phone. 9 times out of ten if they call for just a price it is another sign shop price hunting because they don't know how or want to beat your price. I tell them up front to bring the vehicle so I can give them an exact quote. Most common answer is I will bring it by tomorrow and hang up before you can get a name and number. The guys shopping for that cheap wrap with no artwork... I tell them what they will get for that kind of money and send them to the hack shop that is wrapping for $5 a sqr. ft. That will help that shop go broke faster so they will close their doors and go away. Personally I like a little competition from a good shop that I have respect for but I will flip burgers before I will wrap for $5 a foot. For the hacks doing $5 wraps, learn how to do it right or don't do it at all.