Vinyl cutting with Illustrator?

[Random]

Hello! Seeing as how this is my first post, I should give a little background info. I received my Master XY-300P vinyl cutter today, and have been playing around with some sample cuts. However, while I love Illustrator, I don't really like Flexi. Is there any plug-in for Illustrator that will send the vector paths to the cutter? I have my cutter hooked up to my LPT port.

Thanks!

[Derf]

A plug in for Illustrator came with my Graphtec but I still use Flexi to cut with I did not like the plug-in.

I design my vinyl signs in Illustrator on my MAC then open the file in Flexi on the PC and cut from there. I have noticed that as long as text is outlined and you have cut able art Flexi sign will open an illustrator CS2 file but to be safe save down to a 3.0

[Bigdawg]

We have the same cutter and can't print directly either. I called before we got the cutter to ask about cutting directly from Illustrator and they told us to get EasySign instead of Flexi and that was supposed to allow us to cut from Illustrator - it doesn't. All it really does is perform a kind of "auto-import" from Illustrator. If there is another (affordable) alternative that REALLY prints directly from Illustrator I would love to find it since ALL our work is done in that format.

[iSign]

http://www.magisign.com/

[Random]

http://www.magisign.com/

Waaaaaaaaay too expensive. And only available for Apple. -_-

Seriously, what's the deal with plotter software costing an arm and a leg? You'd figure that if people already dropped that much on Illustrator and a cutter, there'd be an easier approach. Also, I hate this USB hasp thing. Worst idea ever.

[bob]

Waaaaaaaaay too expensive. And only available for Apple. -_-

Seriously, what's the deal with plotter software costing an arm and a leg? You'd figure that if people already dropped that much on Illustrator and a cutter, there'd be an easier approach. Also, I hate this USB hasp thing. Worst idea ever.

Interesting that one only finds hasp keys with grossly overpriced software. Flexi, much as I like it, inarguably is grossly overpriced. As well as the rest of the crop. They do it because they can and the vast majority of their target market has zip for software skills, maybe one or two of then got three lines in a row of BASIC to actually run, and has little choice but to ante up.

I spent many, many, years developing graphics software, for both corporate masters and enlightened self interest. I know pretty much what it's worth and I have never, ever, seen such greed and paranoia that's routinely displayed in the specialty graphics software industry.

I have often toyed with the idea of writing and placing in the public domain a universal hasp key emulator. It's really quite simple to do and I admit to being suffciently perverse as to enjoy giving the finger to these people, especially to the hotbed of arrogance that is Scanvec-Amiable. But, alas, I have more interesting things to do right now and I've forever sworn off doing software at that level. And I already own functional copies of everything that I want to run so I see no real need except for entertainment value.

[Random]

Do it and I'll offer any and all help I can give you. I don't think we're the only ones who find it outrageous.

[iSign]

...Flexi, much as I like it, inarguably is grossly overpriced.

...They do it because they can and the vast majority of their target market has zip for software skills, maybe one or two of then got three lines in a row of BASIC to actually run, and has little choice but to ante up.

Bob the arrogance in your exaggerated opinions are trumped only by your apparent cluelessness in grasping the actual facts of the matter. They "do it" because sign specific software only has a realistic chance of serving a market less then 1% of the size of the market served by a program like Adobe Illustrator..

...AND as for the software skills needed by their target market... writing software code is a skill that only warrants a score of zip anyway! (well, obviously somebody has to do it... I'm not downgrading that skill... just saying it is near the bottom of MY list of needed skills to run a sign business)

In the few areas where I feel programs like Flexi, Signlab or Omega are superior to Illustrator... a true professional can easily justify the legal purchase price in a few weeks or months of time saved. I own those 3 (plus Casmate & Inspire) & never missed a beat in the steady profits realized by paying for good tools when you need them.

...I have often toyed with the idea of writing and placing in the public domain a universal hasp key emulator... ...well Bob, I guess YOU have the choice to NOT ante up, because when the rest of us were learning how to wrap a tailgate, you were learning how to reverse engineer someone else's intellectual property so you could publicly fantasize about some criminal satisfaction from offering up your pirating prowess in hopes of facilitating more thievery.

[Random]

...AND as for the software skills needed by their target market... writing software code is a skill that only warrants a score of zip anyway! (well, obviously somebody has to do it... I'm not downgrading that skill... just saying it is near the bottom of MY list of needed skills to run a sign business)

In the few areas where I feel programs like Flexi, Signlab or Omega are superior to Illustrator... a true professional can easily justify the legal purchase price in a few weeks or months of time saved. I own those 3 (plus Casmate & Inspire) & never missed a beat in the steady profits realized by paying for good tools when you need them.
Hey Doug. Not all of us are professionals. I don't run a sign business; I got the cutter in order to cut logo decals for my (extremely) small business, because I got sick of paying $3 a piece for a 2"x7" logo and $50 for a 24"x24" stencil. The cutter hardware is getting inexpensive enough to where consumers can purchase and utilize it without breaking their bank; it's ridiculous to think that the software would cost more than the cutter.

However, that's not the part that angers me. I'm outraged that there aren't any alternatives. All of you are talking about a professional solution; I don't need one. Flexi is overfeatured as it is - 90% of its functions are duplicated (poorly, I might add) from Illustrator. I already have Illustrator. I bit the bullet and paid for that one because it's so incredibly functional, and I can get much more use out of it in the long run. So why do I use Flexi? The Cut/Plot button. And you expect me to pay how much for that one button? ... Sorry, count me out.


I don't mean to be as offensive as I might seem. But all you're saying is "buy it, it's worth it". If I were to turn around and make thousands of dollars with the software and cutter, maybe it would be worth it. But I'm not. Please think about others' situations before you attack them so tactlessly.

[iSign]

Hey Doug. Not all of us are professionals. I don't run a sign business; I got the cutter in order to cut logo decals for my (extremely) small business, because I got sick of paying $3 a piece for a 2"x7" logo and $50 for a 24"x24" stencil.


TACTLESSLY!!! ???
Virtually ALL my ATTACKING is done tastefully! :Big Laugh

...by the way, this site is for sign business people & your decals are worth $3 & your stencils are worth $50.
The only reason people think they are not worth that is because cheap garage hacks are buying plotters & in some cases bootlegging software with emulators & other hackjob circumvention methods to avoid suffering the proper costs of doing business that the people selling the $3 decals are paying.

Feel free to hang out here & pick the brains of all the sign pros who paid their dues (& paid for their software) so you can cut around the local sign pros in your neighborhood to save yourself a few lousy dollars... but take that "poor me" victim attitude & check it at the door. Nobody was attacking your "situation" until now... but now that you mention it "cheap garage hacks buying plotters" has always been one of the thorns in the side of the signmakers... so I wouldn't suggest advertising that fact in the future.

The cutter hardware is getting inexpensive enough to where consumers can purchase and utilize it without breaking their bank... you may be right about being able to afford to purchase it... as far as "utilizing" it... I guess that remains to be seen. :Sleeping:

[Random]

I'm sorry; unlike most of the people I've seen in your industry, I'm trying to deliver a quality product to my customers at an affordable price. And my customers are consumers, unlike the wasteful large companies that you feel so proud of ripping off. Try telling the folks down the street that their garage sale sign is going to cost $100 and that "it's worth it".

I must reiterate, sign making is not my business. So please, stop acting like I'm stealing your business here. The reason I come to this site is because unfortunately, most of the information I need is locked down tight within your overprotective industry.

Bottom line - I don't need a professional solution, I need one that simply works and is affordable. Argue as vehemently as you'd like, what you're talking about is not affordable in the slightest. Not if I want to do it more than once. With that - I'm sorry, you're wrong. If you had taken the time to read my post instead of scanning it and kicking into your "professional" rhetoric autopilot, you might have come up with a cohesive and compelling argument. Thanks, try again.

[iSign]

if you're just here to dis the sign industry why don't you just take a frikkin hike fool... you come here with your first question & turn into a whiny little freak.

Just because you start a thread doesn't mean everything going on here IS ABOUT YOU :help: this is the internet dude... this is a public forum. Other people are conversing here too.

Stacey is a comitted & intelligent business person who asked a question, I offered her one link to software that does what she asked about (& there are others out there as well) ...who says I have to read, not scan, your post? WTF are you anyway? What have you contributed here?

Bob has his own brash style of tossing opinions into the ring & I am quite an arrogant hothead myself. He & I have bumped heads before & probably will again, but at least he is a thick skinned mature individual that can take schitt as well as he can dish it out... but I throw a few words down his way & you pop up all defensive making it about YOU again. :Oops:

I have nothing to "argue" about, I just offered you a chance to open your eyes to a few FACTS about the value of items you want to produce, the value of proper tools to produce them, & the value of the helpful information that could be found here... but you had the bright idea of digging your heels in to the absolute worst position to gain sympathy around here & have ended up in a deeper hole then if I buried you with my own words, so excuse me... I'll get back to communicating with other sign professionals here & you are free to troll around for other garage hacks secure in the knowledge that my posts are not about you.

[Random]

Pardon me while I take a second to make an educated post.

I'm not here to "diss the sign industry". I'm here to learn more about its techniques. While there is a hobbyist community for nearly every other profession out there, there is nothing even close to one for signmaking. To a hobbyist, your "facts" about the industry are painfully hard to believe. And as such, I am only trying to figure out why. Nowhere in my arguments did I say anything about this site being anything other than a wealth of information.

Flamewars aren't really my thing. Try stopping by Something Awful if you find them to be so necessary.

[signage]

The price for the software that actually does the bulk of the work is what has always cost a lot. Look at the machining industries you can get a cheap piece of equipment and do the work, but when you want to get into automated or computer driven work the software costs thousand of dollars. So you can either do it the hard way (manually) or pay and do it more efficiently. As far as writing code there are other costs other than just the programmer fro a company put an item in tot the market place.

[bob]

...well Bob, I guess YOU have the choice to NOT ante up, because when the rest of us were learning how to wrap a tailgate, you were learning how to reverse engineer someone else's intellectual property so you could publicly fantasize about some criminal satisfaction from offering up your pirating prowess in hopes of facilitating more thievery.

I admit to not being experienced in the arcanery of wrapping vehicles and their tailgates. I'm a retired software engineer who, before embarking on that much more lucrative career, was a journeyman signwriter and all around print shop hand. Back when all there was was quills and One-Shot. I kept my hand in over the years but vinyl is relatively new to me in the last few years. Perhaps forced upon me by dimming eyesight and a tender back but an interesting and, for me, almost a seamless change. Seamless because proper typography and design are timeless. As well as a great deal of those years spent diddling software was dealing with X-Y devices as well as printers. I was, obliquely, part of a bunch that developed ink jet technology.

Regardless of my checkered past, this is not thievery, piracy, or even moral repugnancy, not at all. Not even close. Anymore than a pop-up blocker is obstructionist. I'm not proposing filing the serial numbers off a legitimate package and distributing it. All I'm doing is creating an alternate environment under which it can run. No different that adding an aftermarket plug-in or perhaps additional memory.

All you have to do is set up a filter process that gets in front of all traffic through the particular interface where you want to create the illusion of a hasp key.

I wouldn't have to lay a glove on anyone else's proprietary software, merely add a process to my system, that's MY system, not Scanvec Amiable's, Onyx's, or anyone elses. Mine to operate in any any way I see fit to do so.

Moreover if you wanted to run, say, Flexi, under this process you'd still need a valid user ID and hasp key code. All it does is replace the chunk of plastic, you'd still need to know the secret handshake.

Of course armed with this process, anyone with a legal copy could burn one and give it to someone else along with the proper secret decoder ring settings. Being fundamentally honest, I wouldn't, but what others do that has no real effect on me is of little interest. The operative word here is 'real'. Obscure and tangential micro-effects are not players.

[Bigdawg]

Thanks for the link Doug, but we're hooked up to the cutter with a PC. We'll just keep importing.

Software is expensive - for any kind of specialty. I think Brian has it about right - you can buy inexpensive hardware (we did) and use the (cheap) software that came with it or you spend the money and get a professional version. Comes down to manual vs. automated. We are still in manual mode - as we grow we'll update but for now the price is not in our budget.

I understand your point Random - and to some extent you, Bob, although I don't feel writing a hack is the appropriate thing to do even though writing code is definitely a skill in my book. But you have the software and equipment to do the job - it just takes a few more steps. That's usually the way it is in a hobbyist version vs. professional version of anything. Look at Windows XP (cost $99) and Windows XP Pro ($299) or Microsoft publisher ($250) or Adobe Illustrator (lots more!!!) You pay for the extra bells and whistles that a professional level application delivers even if you don't utilize all of them.

[Rick]

There are a million vinyl hacks and hobbyist around, when they find a professional board and talk about high cost and rip-off sign shops, I am amused at what little they know, yet voice such a strong opinion. I do not get offended, what do they really actually know about the business to get so riled up about.

If a hobbyist is looking for a cheap solution it can start with a brush and a can of one-shot to a knife and tracing paper. If they get into the computer part of it, they already have a computer, fonts and hopefully a paid for version of a legitimate vector software. At the least they have 1000-1200 bucks invested. Why balk at 300-500 bucks for Co-Cut, Flexi-Starter (I just bought a legit version for 80.00) or other bridge solutions. In time Random will have invested in App. tape, vinyl, cutter, misc install tools for basic signs......another 1000-1500 bucks. In total they need a 2000-2700.00 investment. So what is another 3-500 bucks?

Now calling a sign shop overpriced by charging 100 bucks for a garage sale sign may be true, but a lot of shops, including myself have minimums, that sign would be 75.00 if I did it. Here is why.......

I get paid for my time, if 100 people came to me for cheap signs then I have to work too hard with little monitary reward. I have a lot more invested. That cheap garage sale sign will take me at least 1/2 an hour from the start of the conversation to getting it into my books, and than I twiddle my thumbs for the next cheap sign.That cheap garage sale sign will be designed on a $3500.00 computer (and I'm not a bit sorry that I use a Mac) that is hooked up to a DSL line at 60 bucks a month, I may print it out for the clients approval on my $7000.00 color laser printer, or my$2000.00 black and white printer. I use a legit version of Adobe CS2 Premium graphics suite software with original purchases and upgrades I have spent nearly $2500.00 bucks on Adobe software. My type collection is hitting near $10,000.00 now, then I have Flexi-Sign $4,000.00 with upgrades. Add to that maintaining other software like Microsoft Office, Quark, Macromedia Studio, Corel Draw, Filemaker and misc other software on 2 platforms that need upgrading or replacement every 3-4 years. As well as a proffesional vinyl cutter or cutters at around $6,000.00 bucks as well as a stock of materials way past what a hobbyist would carry $2000-5000,00 bucks, then add insurance, taxes and getting paid, advertising........I hope you get the picture.......you can't compare, and the clients that would compare I don't really want as a customer, so go ahead and take them.

When it's time to upgrade your cheap system, you will find it a lot harder to do if you do not take into account that technology move forward and in time things need to be replaced, and a few more hacks and hobbyist will join in with a cashed out 401k or mommas money or a fresh credit card or the creativley frustrated with equity in thier home with the supportive spouse with brand new equipment and even lower prices. Stay on the sign boards long enough, most new sign people are what I described, and there is nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't make for a good sign person.

For the cheapest solution, you can cut directly from Corel and I think it's on sale this month on Corel.com.

[gtjet]

Well said Rick and Doug. We have Flexi Pro and a Roland VersaCamm SP 300 that came with Color Rip, we have PS shop 7 and we have Mega Art and Print N Cut from Fred W plus other vector software from other sign suppliers. We are not in business to do $8 garage sale signs, you can buy them at wal-mart. We will help a business with a store front sign or signage and so on. At $3 per decal why bother. If you want a 100 of them we can do that for maybe even less depending on size. Random must buy a lot of signs to justify the money he has already spent to be in the business and he must not value his time that it takes to make the signs. Maybe if he spent more time on his business and less on making $3 decals he could afford the sign pro in his area. Lets see if he makes 10,000 3 dollar decals he will have 30000 dollars less $10,000 in expenses so he will net $20,000 dollars. Not bad, almost up to poverty level.

[Bobby H]

Okay, its another round of the professional sign makers, versus "hobbyists" and amateurs discussion. So I'll just paste in a good magnum opus post.
:Big Laugh

Here's my stand:

I make no secret about my feelings on the subject. Sign making is a profession. It demands real artistic talent, visual problem solving skills and real professional graphic design skills. The best sign makers are usually people who invested in four year art school degrees, bought their software legitimately and worked lots of hours to pay their dues to justify working in this industry.

I completely disagree with the mindset that sign making is somehow a democratic field that anyone should be able to join. That would be like saying anyone should be able to play in the NFL. It should take a lot more than just the purchase of a vinyl cutter and some cracked software to start a vinyl business.

On the terms "hobbyist" or "amateur," such terms are supposed to go to people who make vinyl items for themselves or friends and charge no money. When you start charging other people for your work you are trying to work as a professional and therefore should live up to some professional standards. Those standards include paying for legit software, being an avid student of graphic design and constantly trying to improve the quality of your work.

Almost all other professions demand proven competence in their respective fields before a new worker is allowed to start practicing that trade. Everyone from plumbers to lawyers has to pass some kind of test, earn some kind of certification or even a degree in order to start working professionally. Sign people, and most graphics people in general, are for some retarded reason exempt from such a process.

It's pretty annoying at times when someone visits this forum and announces something to the effect, "I just bought a vinyl cutter and some software to start a sign business. Can you guys help me design my first logo? I don't know what I'm doing."
:rolleyes:

Anyone making such statements has no business running a sign business, much less working for one. Sorry, but that is a fact. If you don't know what you're doing then you have no right to charge people for your work or get paid for it as an employee. A sign designer who charges other people for his work should already demonstrate some expertise in graphic design.

I invested over $50,000 in my four year art school degree. I have worked in the sign industry for over a decade, and worked in other graphics oriented fields before that. I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money on software just for my own use; nevermind the countless thousands our company has spent on software, equipment, computer systems, vinyl cutters, routing tables, etc. With all of that investment, why should I be accomodating others who want to join this industry when they dodge any formal training and not even want to pay for legit software? I have even less incentive to be accomodating when some of those folks turn into new competitors. Those new, unqualified guys are only arriving on the scene to further downgrade my standard of living.

As it stands, the profession of graphic design has deteriorated to a level not a couple steps above minimum wage burger flipping. If I knew things eventually would become this way 20 years ago I probably would have tried hard to pursue a different trade or profession.

That's my stand on it.

Now to comment on a few things posted.

I have often toyed with the idea of writing and placing in the public domain a universal hasp key emulator. It's really quite simple to do and I admit to being suffciently perverse as to enjoy giving the finger to these people, especially to the hotbed of arrogance that is Scanvec-Amiable.

You realize doing such a thing is a federal felony, correct?

Flexi, EnRoute and other applications in the Scanvec/Amiable family are industry specific programs. Hobbyist people have no business using them. There is a limited number of professional users that need apps like Flexi. The development cost of that software is amortized out over the number of users. The pricing is completely fair, not "grossly overpriced."

If Flexi had the user base of Photoshop, then FlexiSign Pro would cost only $500. But it doesn't have that user base, and never will (and probably shouldn't either).

I'm sorry; unlike most of the people I've seen in your industry, I'm trying to deliver a quality product to my customers at an affordable price.

Usually that sort of thing is a paradox. The folks charging bargain basement prices on vinyl graphics usually offer bargain basement quality to go along with it. Acts of font murder abound, as well as trademark infrigement and other head scratchers. IMHO, anyone who sells cartoons of Calvin from the Calvin & Hobbes cartoon peeing on a given car company logo is a foolish idiot. Same goes for those who cut and sell unauthorized Harley Davidson vinyl logos and more. But that is the speed of many vinyl shops offering "the cheapest price" and operating out of their garage.

There are a million vinyl hacks and hobbyist around, when they find a professional board and talk about high cost and rip-off sign shops, I am amused at what little they know, yet voice such a strong opinion. I do not get offended, what do they really actually know about the business to get so riled up about.

I think nearly all of them also miss the point of professional responsibility. To add to that, there's lot of people working in the sign industry, some for a long time, who don't do competent work. Yet they want to charge small or large amount of money for poor quality work.

The sign industry does very little to police itself. The only things are offering to enforce any standards at all are coming from the high end. A growing number of states are demanding sign companies that do any electrical sign work to meet various qualifications in order to practice their trade. Many have to earn electricians licenses and do work that is UL Listed. That may have an effect of enforcing higher work standards that filter over into the design aspect. The long shot hope is some of that may finally filter down into the non-lighted "fast signs" area of our industry.

It is about time for this country at large to get rid of the extremely stupid mindset that the computer is creating the artwork and that one only needs to hire the person willing to work for the least amount of money. The emphasis should be on proven professional level talent. When that becomes the commodity then the commercial landscapes in the United States might stop looking so bad.

[Random]

Apparently I've opened up a Pandora's box of the professionals' feelings of the leeching hacks in their industry. Allow me to clear up some misconceptions and I'll be finished.


On the terms "hobbyist" or "amateur," such terms are supposed to go to people who make vinyl items for themselves or friends and charge no money. You've just described my situation almost perfectly.


When you start charging other people for your work you are trying to work as a professional and therefore should live up to some professional standards. My product is completely different than the vinyl cuts, but uses them extensively for stencils and logos. Against my better judgment, I'd invite you to look at exactly what I'm dealing with.
http://www.ransai.com/mall/
Stencils (custom designs) and logos, for both of which I couldn't justify charging much more than cost to my customers. My work is in the controllers, not in the vinyl. If I were to outsource the vinyl, the cost would be (and has been) exponentially more expensive, which I cannot justify any longer.


It's pretty annoying at times when someone visits this forum and announces something to the effect, "I just bought a vinyl cutter and some software to start a sign business. Can you guys help me design my first logo? I don't know what I'm doing."
:rolleyes:

Anyone making such statements has no business running a sign business, much less working for one. While I understand your sentiments, I'd also like to point out that I have never made such a statement, nor would I ever have the ignorance to.

Flexi, EnRoute and other applications in the Scanvec/Amiable family are industry specific programs. Hobbyist people have no business using them.
Then please, point me at a plotter program that supports hobbyists. I don't believe any exist.


The folks charging bargain basement prices on vinyl graphics usually offer bargain basement quality to go along with it. And this I agree with wholeheartedly. That said, my philosophy on business competition of any kind is this: Fight your battles with the quality of your product, not with the ferocity of your argument. Doug, I saw the sign you made for your company - it looks beautiful. If I were looking for a compelling sign for my business, that alone would sell me on your product.

My bottom line - I don't run a sign business. I'm not looking to start one with my new cutter. If I were going to become a professional architect, I'd buy AutoCAD. If I were going to become a professional graphic designer, I'd buy Photoshop. I'm not going to be making any money on my vinyl cuts; I can't afford expensive software to support it. So, if someone could point me in the direction of a hobbyist forum for vinyl cutting, I'd be much obliged. Sorry for perpetuating all the drama.

[Techman]

Bob H ,,Very well said,
I deam of having those kind of articulation skills.

In fact,,
And an example.. In past posts I railed about people using witches brew for application fluids. My premise was not using some home made weasel ****. My premise is that acting like a professional means being a professional and using professional tools. (Rapid TAc ) And quit trying to be cheap, quit trying to do a job cheap, or looking for the cheapest way to complete a project.

Defining the skills into professional / hobbyist really makes a point.
Professionals find ways to do a job right while others look for ways to do a job cheapo.. (stealing software, making weasel ****, amd using calandered vinyl in place of trans.)

And then.. I find it hard to believe someone hanging around a sign board,, who has the skills to crack a hasp dongle,, would waste time making peanuts in teh sign bizz.. I personally know / knew some of the very few people in the world who had the skills to reverse a dongle wrapper.. They are is such demand they write their own ticket..

And more.. There is no need to write a hasp emulator.. there are hundreds around already. If this person had the skills to write one he would know there are such emulators.

And then.There is no need to buy flexi at $3 grand to cut out of illy when there are several great alternatives such as cocut pro for just a few hundreds...

Then please, point me at a plotter program that supports hobbyists

Cocut pro will operate a cutter for hobbyists at a very economical cost.. Cocut regular is even cheaper.. If you wish to raise such premise then you should get more data and be more informed..


--Techman

[Robert]

Neat, I get to comment on a subject. I just... JUST got into this sign industry this last month. This is a side business thing while I work towards retirement on the federal level. I've had alot of spiderweb effect in this beginning process. People heard about it from a donation of products I did for a local charity. The other people send me crap jpeg and bmp images, which are converted to vectors. I cut samples and send them out with an estimate for the 300-350 stickers they want. What do I get back? "Oh, well my friend said he can give them to me for 50 cents each and you're higher than that" followed by "I'm not trying to lowball you, it's just what my friend can do them for". Is he SERIOUS? We're talking 4 different 6" logos, 1/2 in black, 1/2 in white... 350 total stickers. Obviously no conception of layout for best material usage, cutting, weeding, masking, trimming, packaging. I told him I use quality vinyl with a 7-8 year outdoor life. Though I don't have a HIGH-END cutter, I did spend $3200 on it and software. I really want this to be starting into something making some profit. Though it's AMAZING how many people want something for nothing. And how many new 'freinds' I have who 'just want one sticker'. I tell them they should pay me MORE than the kiosk at the mall. I'm here at work with them. They just tell me what they want and I bring it in the next day, all ready to go. If the mall wants $3.50 for a 6" decal, I figure I can "give" them to co-workers at $3 safely... right. Hey, how about a buck? hm, hey, how about you drive your cheap-a$$ to the mall and talk to the 12 year old at the kiosk. I'd love to get an actual pricing guide, while at the same time.. what's the use? people want it all for free.

[Robert]

Oh yeah, and for what it's worth.. .I'd LOVE to have a bypass to this USB hasp thing. I'd like to leave it here in my home office... and still be able to do work on my laptop while I'm away, without the risk of losing or wearing out the hasp. Also, I paid like $1600 for this software... no way in HELL is someone getting a free or cheap copy of it. :)

[Bobby H]

My product is completely different than the vinyl cuts, but uses them extensively for stencils and logos. Against my better judgment, I'd invite you to look at exactly what I'm dealing with.
http://www.ransai.com/mall/

Maybe I'm missing something. But if you're producing custom arcade controllers you're probably going to need a different logo printing method than just applying vinyl to the product. I can picture how users could wear away the vinyl in little time. High performance vinyl graphics can last at least several years -but such graphics are not meant to be contacted by hands or other abrasive items. Add to that the concern that if you're customizing the controllers with logos besides your own then you may be committing trademark infringement (unless you obtained prior written permission to use the logos).

While I understand your sentiments, I'd also like to point out that I have never made such a statement, nor would I ever have the ignorance to.

I hope my post didn't attribute such a statement to you either. For other readers who might have skimmed past my last post I stated, "It's pretty annoying at times when someone visits this forum and announces something to the effect, 'I just bought a vinyl cutter and some software to start a sign business. Can you guys help me design my first logo? I don't know what I'm doing.'"

A good number of newbies make such posts in the Signs101 forums on a fairly frequent basis. I'm not going to get in their thread and flame them for it. But I do have to admit the annoyed feelings I have over it. Basically they're saying, "I'm not qualified for the job I am holding."

To make an even more cynical statement, they probably are qualified for the job in the eyes of their employer. To the employer the only thing that matters is the employee is able to turn on the computer, launch the vinyl cutting program, be able to cut some lettering out of roll vinyl and then apply it on a banner. Oh, and the other employer concern is to find someone who can do that and accept $6 an hour.

Then please, point me at a plotter program that supports hobbyists. I don't believe any exist.

CoCut. You can choose the standard version or the "pro" version. It works with CorelDRAW 6-12, Illustrator 8-CS2 and Freehand 8-MX. It is about as inexpensive as any vinyl cutting add-on will get and still provide decent results.

For a full time sign shop, it makes more sense to have a professional level sign making application like FlexiSign, Gerber Omega or SignLab (along with a slew of other professional graphic design programs, such as Photoshop, Illustrator, CorelDRAW, etc.).

[Random]

Maybe I'm missing something. But if you're producing custom arcade controllers you're probably going to need a different logo printing method than just applying vinyl to the product. I can picture how users could wear away the vinyl in little time. High performance vinyl graphics can last at least several years -but such graphics are not meant to be contacted by hands or other abrasive items. Add to that the concern that if you're customizing the controllers with logos besides your own then you may be committing trademark infringement (unless you obtained prior written permission to use the logos). Two steps ahead of you. The stencils I need are one-time-use - a paint mask. (Where I apply the vinyl to a primed box, paint over it and remove the vinyl.) $50 for a single-use stencil is ostensibly steep. And no, I'm extremely touchy about copyright issues; I only use my own art, public-license art, or custom art supplied to me by a customer. My competitor (http://www.desktoparcade.com/) has none of these qualms, and it's made me extremely angry for a long time. >:[


CoCut. You can choose the standard version or the "pro" version. It works with CorelDRAW 6-12, Illustrator 8-CS2 and Freehand 8-MX. It is about as inexpensive as any vinyl cutting add-on will get and still provide decent results. Sounds like something I'd want. I'll look into it - thank you!

[bob]

You realize doing such a thing is a federal felony, correct?

You might want to get better legal advice than that which you appear to have been receiving. There is nothing felonious, federal or otherwise, in running software in the evironment of my chosing. The software is unaltered in any way and my ownership of it is legitimate. How I chose to run it is my business, not the software developer's. Or yours.

Regardless, doing an end run and creating an alternate environment is something I would do simply because I can. If I were interested, which I am not.

That out of the way, I'd be up for playing a fast rubber of hardware and software 'can you top this' as well as matching hash marks for tours of duty and related experience against a side of self-proclaimed 'professionals' digging on this sand pile. The problem with doing that is that it flies in the face of my desire to have a lifestyle that doesn't require my presence. Inscrutibility being the first step to that end.

I do this work because I want to, certainly not because I have to. This is what I do, it's not at all what I am. That's the difference between someone styling themselves a 'businessman' and others as 'craftsman'. The latter is merely what you do, the former is what you are. I'm content with what I am, leaving me time to indulge myself doing what I want to do.

That being the case, I sell the fruits of my labors for what I want to get for them, not what others want me to get for them. Apparently to somehow preserve the ever elusive integrity of their business or something. Someone else's business is Yet Another thing in which I have no interest.

My list of uninteresting things is quite long, touching upon the environment, the state of the union, what nonsense anyone might chose to believe, as well as a host of others areas.

That last does have an asterisk: What someone chooses to believe is not particularly interesting but the reasons for believing whatever it is can be of interest. Or at least entertaining.

[iSign]

Random, I'll refrain from a tacky apology because I tend to exhibit enough passive/agressive tendencies already... but I will say I found it somewhat reassuring to see sentiments at least similar to mine accumulating today & I felt that was important as much for my own sense of validation, as for you to get a sense that I was not some lone wolf targeting you & you alone for ridicule.

Similar to Bobby's admission of this thread serving as an outlet for venting the annoyance twords the "number of newbies make such posts in the Signs101 forums on a fairly frequent basis" ... I stated views that have developed over the years... not a lashing out based only on your comments yesterday. In fact I hoped to step around you on this & spar only with Bob... but it wasn't meant to be.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment.

Years ago I aquired an excellent account cutting vinyl graphics for a windsurf manufacturer here. He ordered about $800 worth of complex cut vinyl graphics every few weeks. Most of my fees were based on labor... & although I considered it slightly "skill-based" ... it was still just weeding vinyl, & almost anyone could learn to do it in minutes. Anyway, the guy finally told me he bought his own plotter.

Of course I was sad to lose such a good source of income... I really couldn't blame him, & of course I can't blame you either.

But lets say for a minute that regarding Bobby's comment:
add to that the concern that if you're customizing the controllers with logos besides your own then you may be committing trademark infringement (unless you obtained prior written permission to use the logos). You of course probably DO have written permission to use the logos.. & lets say you usually sell your product to the end user... but some new gaming arcade decides to buy them by the dozen from you... then, suddenly they want to open a new arcade.... but don't want to pay your price. Say they find a way to make their own controllers... but THEY are willing to put bootleg IIDX decals on theirs to save a few bucks...

well, I know the point was obvious long before I rehashed it... but you will have to agree that losing busines to a smart client or competitor on a level playing field is easier to swallow then losing business to unethical business practices. Bob was hinting around at.. if not actually condoning or suggesting illegal business practices.

And Bob.. I see now you rolled out those inflamatory views of your on one of those stunt bikes... complete with the full-on backpedaling feature. :Big Laugh ...going from:
...writing and placing in the public domain a universal hasp key emulator ...I admit to being suffciently perverse as to enjoy giving the finger to these people
but later rephrasing as:
...this is not thievery, piracy, or even moral repugnancy... All I'm doing is creating an alternate environment under which it can run.
...under this process you'd still need a valid user ID and hasp key code.
actually you wouldn't need a "valid" one... at this point any one would work, which is why it is illegal, & why insinuations of "placing [it] in the public domain" stinks of everything this post has become about.




Oh yeah, and for what it's worth.. .I'd LOVE to have a bypass to this USB hasp thing. I'd like to leave it here in my home office... and still be able to do work on my laptop while I'm away, without the risk of losing or wearing out the hasp. Also, I paid like $1600 for this software... no way in HELL is someone getting a free or cheap copy of it. :)

Robert, I'm with you bro... before I allow myself to appear to lean too far into rightousness on this thread... I have spoken out at great length in the past about how these security keys, while justified in an effort to get us to pay to play, end up causing all of us legal users a great deal of inconvenience as a result.

[Bobby H]

You might want to get better legal advice than that which you appear to have been receiving. There is nothing felonious, federal or otherwise, in running software in the evironment of my chosing. The software is unaltered in any way and my ownership of it is legitimate. How I chose to run it is my business, not the software developer's. Or yours.

If you don't want to make it any of my business or anyone else's, don't brag about how you're going to reverse engineer copywrited software on a public forum. If I were going to do such a thing I sure as hell wouldn't tell anyone about it, especially in a 'blog.

And I also know for a fact you would be breaking federal law by hacking the dongles of copyrighted software. There are numerous software piracy criminal cases which back up my warning. One of the most famous cases of prosecution over reverse engineering is the DeCSS hack for DVD Video. A couple guys in Scandinavia hacked the copy protection system for DVD just so they could play their movies on a computer running Linux. Our government had those guys extradicted to the United States to face charges. Ultimately they were aquitted, but numerous rulings criminalized any act to crack or reverse engineer any copy protection system. Products like DVD X-Copy had to be pulled from the marketplace (even though the DeCSS hacks and other DVD copying utilities are easy to aquire on the 'net).

That out of the way, I'd be up for playing a fast rubber of hardware and software 'can you top this' as well as matching hash marks for tours of duty and related experience against a side of self-proclaimed 'professionals' digging on this sand pile. The problem with doing that is that it flies in the face of my desire to have a lifestyle that doesn't require my presence. Inscrutibility being the first step to that end.

So basically you're saying you have as much experience and qualification to design and make signs as anyone on this board, but don't want to provide any specific proof to back it up? That doesn't make any sense.
:rolleyes:

I do this work because I want to, certainly not because I have to. This is what I do, it's not at all what I am. That's the difference between someone styling themselves a 'businessman' and others as 'craftsman'. The latter is merely what you do, the former is what you are. I'm content with what I am, leaving me time to indulge myself doing what I want to do.

So I take it you have a different "day job" to pay the bills, right?

Whatever you're doing to pay the bills, are you willing to work that job for free? Basically that's what anyone who wants to grab commercial or industry specific software for nothing expects of the developers. They want the programmers to work for nothing. The losses each company takes from piracy gives their MBA accountants more of an excuse to ship all the programming jobs off to India to save a few bucks.

[iSign]

I'd LOVE to have a bypass to this USB hasp thing. I'd like to leave it here in my home office... without the risk of losing or wearing out the hasp.

Robert... it may make your eyes bleed... but I stumbled on these old discussions about this topic:

http://www.4edgetalk.com/sitenet/cgi-bin/netboardr.cgi?fid=106&cid=103&tid=696&sc=20&pg=1&x=0

then this one:

http://www.4edgetalk.com/sitenet/cgi-bin/netboardr.cgi?fid=106&cid=103&tid=1063&st=0&nd=20&pg=8&sc=40

[bob]

So I take it you have a different "day job" to pay the bills, right?

Whatever you're doing to pay the bills, are you willing to work that job for free? Basically that's what anyone who wants to grab commercial or industry specific software for nothing expects of the developers. They want the programmers to work for nothing. The losses each company takes from piracy gives their MBA accountants more of an excuse to ship all the programming jobs off to India to save a few bucks.

You presume into error. If you must know, I have no day job. Signs are are what I have done for over half a century. What I do is signs, what I am is a number of things. Other things. At this juncture in my brief passage through the external reality, the sign business provides me with stakes for poker games as well as feed and shoes for my horses and entry fees to various competitive events. Much more importantly it provides me with some actual non-contrived thing to do. The money is fine but not necessary and most certainly not all there is to it.

Someone else's circumstances might be different. To that I can only offer a shrug.

Moreover I have never, as in ever, advocated purlioning the fruits of another's labors. My interest is merely a manifestation of a fascination with finding flaws in systems, something I used to do for princely fees way back when I did have a day job. I'll leave the actual striking of blows for freedom or whatever ideological flag under which others might sail to those more intense than myself. Just knowing that it can be done, simply and rather elegantly, is sufficient.

My lack of interest in whether or not software jobs are done in India or Antarctica or wherever and whether or not those so engaged labor for free or otherwise approaches total. Merely shifts in the various commercial winds that blow willy-nilly over the planet. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is. Deal with it. Deal with it properly and it can be to your advantage. Stand there and yell at it and all you'll get is a sore throat.

This apparent apathy towards the particular state of things that are stems from a firm grasp of the notion that there exists no good greater than my own and thus the inescapable conclusion that for me and mine, the entire universe exists soley to serve our needs. That others might fare better or worse than ourselves is only a byproduct of the mechanism that exists to serve us.

This view is somewhat flawed, but then so are any and all alternatives. This one at least has the charm of requiring a minimal involvement on my part.

[bob]

And Bob.. I see now you rolled out those inflamatory views of your on one of those stunt bikes... complete with the full-on backpedaling feature. ...going from:

Quote (elipsis yours):
...writing and placing in the public domain a universal hasp key emulator ...I admit to being suffciently perverse as to enjoy giving the finger to these people

but later rephrasing as:

Quote(elipsis yours):
...this is not thievery, piracy, or even moral repugnancy... All I'm doing is creating an alternate environment under which it can run.
...under this process you'd still need a valid user ID and hasp key code.

actually you wouldn't need a "valid" one... at this point any one would work, which is why it is illegal, & why insinuations of "placing [it] in the public domain" stinks of everything this post has become about.


Explain just how it might be that any reasonable interpretation of the first statement precludes or gainsays any point made in the second quote. Feel free to use pie charts and any other audio/visual aids you might require to do this.

Moreover, a user id and hasp key code that works is, by definition, a valid user id and hasp key code.

[Bobby H]

My lack of interest in whether or not software jobs are done in India or Antarctica or wherever and whether or not those so engaged labor for free or otherwise approaches total. Merely shifts in the various commercial winds that blow willy-nilly over the planet. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is.

So basically, the plain English version is you think you're entitled to using commercial software for free while collecting a paycheck from the sign industry. You could have put it that way rather than writing a series of paragraphs in a stilted and rather zany form.

Congratulations, you're a hypocrite.

[bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random
My lack of interest in whether or not software jobs are done in India or Antarctica or wherever and whether or not those so engaged labor for free or otherwise approaches total. Merely shifts in the various commercial winds that blow willy-nilly over the planet. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is.

So basically, the plain English version is you think you're entitled to using commercial software for free while collecting a paycheck from the sign industry. You could have put it that way rather than writing a series of paragraphs in a stilted and rather zany form.

Congratulations, you're a hypocrite.

First get your attributions correct, those are my words, not Random's, whomever that might be.

But to the point; when I need words put in my mouth I'm capable of doing so myself. How anyone could make the fanciful leap of what seems to pass for logic in your tribe that proceeds from lack of interest in just where software might be produced to advocation of piracy strains the fabric of both the language and reason. I am sufficiently articulate to state exactly what I want to state, passing that through a filter of someone else's set of prejudices only serves to obfuscate, never to clarify.

Secundus: I do not collect a paycheck from the sign industry, I profit from the fruits of my labors. If the 'sign industry', whatever mysterious collective that might be, were to disappear in a cloud of greasy vapor my concern with that happenstance would be right up there with just where software is being written.

Neither do I use commercial software for free. If you must know, all the resources, software and hardware, that I have gathered about me have been purchased from legitimate sources at full list price. That I am able to scout holes in someone's system merely indicates that I can scout holes in someone's system. Nothing else, especially not raising the Jolly Roger and setting sail on a voyage rife with rape, pillage, and plunder. You attempt to get way too much mileage out of simple statements.

I might add that I participate here because there can be some really good information. This always serves to either confirm what I already know or to cause me to question what I thought to be the case. Either way, I tune my chosen craft. Here in this forum, it is especially pleasant, the spectre of raging hormones and vacuous opinions is usually kept at an endurable noise level.

Adding to that, some stranger's opinion on socio-economic issues offers no real information. At least none that I feel any compelling need to heed.

[iSign]

Explain just how it might be that any reasonable interpretation of the first statement precludes or gainsays any point made in the second quote. Feel free to use pie charts and any other audio/visual aids you might require to do this.

Moreover, a user id and hasp key code that works is, by definition, a valid user id and hasp key code.

In the first statement Bob is picking the lock to Scanvec-Amiable's pie store (with his own simple, and elegant I might add) homemade lock picking tools (which of course makes it legal) ... once IN... Bob is setting numerous fresh baked pies outside the locked door in the public domain (not to mention gaining perverse pleasure doing so... or at least writing about his alleged ability & audacity to do so)

In the second statement Bob is simply enjoying his fresh baked (& legally acquired) Scanvec-Amiable pie, albeit peeking under the crust for an innocent look at the ingredients making up said pie.

My lack of interest in whether or not Bob chokes on said pie approaches total. Merely shifts in the various olfactory winds that blow willy-nilly over the kitchen. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is. choke on it.

[bob]

Doug my good lad...

It doesn't seem to work as well for you as it does for me, does it? You come off sounding a bit like a cop talking over his head. That's probably because you're having to reach for it. As for myself, how I write is pretty much the way I speak.

Crafting a good metaphor is an art, much like signs. Work at it, it can be fun.

[iSign]

Bob, I find your perception of how well crafted your style of writing or speaking is to be laughable. Your writing seems to be a form of masturbation. (but at least someone is getting something out of it) Regardless how overblown your ego is, or how condescending you can manage to appear, don't flatter yourself to think I would "reach" to emulate your writing. I write only to convey a message.

Some people are too obtuse to justify restating a rather obvious point. You on the other hand seemed just too caught up in your own defensiveness to understand how placing hacked emulation software in the public domain would preclude your right to later say "this is not thievery" ...so I wasted a little more time to state the obvious in another way. While wasting time anyway, I gave it my own twist on the pie graph imagery you solicited. I guess some people choose not to see when they are wrong, so I'll let it be.

[Fred Weiss]

I've been allowing this to continue even though it is a clear cut case of hijacking a thread. At this point it hasn't made any contribution in some time towards furthering anyone's skills or knowledge about signmaking or how to cut from Adobe Illustrator.

Thread closed.