Major Vinyl problems!!!!!!!!!! :-(

[rcook99]

Ok so I get a call this morning from a company that i did work for about 15 months ago. I lettered up 11 vehicles for them as they changed there logo. So the customer tells me that the letters are screwed up on one of the trucks. I told him I would stop down after lunch only to find this. (See pics attached) I then proceed to check some of the other trucks I did and noticed that the others are starting to do the same thing:frustrated:.

I am not going to put the brand of vinyl I am using at this time as I have not talked to the company yet. What I was wondering is if anyone else has seen anything like this and if so what was the outcome. What did the company that produces the vinyl do for you if anything? My day went from a very good day to a very bad day as it is looking like all these trucks alon with 2 4x8 signs will have to be replaced. :banghead:

Oh and by the way no those wrinkles were not there after the install. LOL

Thanks,
RC

[Bigdawg]

pics attached???

[rcook99]

Sorry try it now.

[Mosh]

Is it high performance. Looks like what would happen if oracal 610 was used on vehicles. The old place it is coming off is around the indent in the van?

[Circleville Signs]

Looks like rapid expansion/contraction. Do these vehicles go from a well heated garage into the cold alot?


Gary

[Techman]

install problems...

[Fred Weiss]

No pics but if you're using Avery (or any private label vinyl made by Avery) that would be on you. Lots of warnings about the product failures a few years back.

Other than that, we've had one failure with a well known brand that was limited to one roll of material. It started peeling off after about six months. Since we had no other problems with the vinyl series, we made no changes to our inventory.

If you are dealing with a defective roll of material, the concerns and backup will vary from one manufacturer to the next. Some will insist you or your customer did something wrong and will eventually offer you replacement material. Others will want all the details and will compensate you for your labor and materials to get things put right.

[Billct2]

Printed? Layered(with punched outline?)?

[rcook99]

No maybe here and there but keep in mind this stuff has only been on for around 15-18 months. I will be adding another picture in a minute.

[Mosh]

Are the 4x8 doing it too? If not I would say it is something the customer is doing, as long as you used the same film.

[Poconopete]

Are they using a hot water pressure washer to clean the vans?

[Circleville Signs]

Are they using a hot water pressure washer to clean the vans?

+1

Great question!

[B Snyder]

The texture and gloss look like calendared vinyl.

[ucmj22]

Had this problem once with an etched vinyl about 6 months ago. I had never seen it happen before and the only thing I could think of was that the vinyl had been sitting in the office for at least a year and a half and might have just gone bad. I bought some new 3M dusted vinyl and re-did the job with no problems. It looks like the same thing though... massive shrinkage causing cracking and wrinkling. If you were using new 5-9 year vinyl it shouldn't have happened. Your supplier might have had it sitting on the rack for a while too.

[Bigdawg]

Mosh I use a ton of Oracal 651 on vehicles (yes I offer 'em 751 but they always want cheap... you should understand that :smile:) and I've never seen that happen... I have vehicles that have been on the road upward of 4 years that still look good.

I don't understand the bunching underneath...

[rcook99]

Ok I just added another picture of the same van that shows the shrinkage of the material.

Fred: it is a brand name material and I will say it's NOT Avery. I have never used and never will use Avery from all the horror stories I have heard.

Techman as far as the install what are you talking about.

BillCt2 It is layered vinyl

Poconopete: I will have to check with them as I know they have a pressure washer in the garage. The white you see around the two layers is actually wax.
Mosh I didn't check the 4x8 as I had another appt. But I will be going down tomorrow to take additional pics with my Nikon as opposed to my BB

[Border]

Looks like classic....AVERY
I got several thousand $ out of them AND they even paid money to my new 3M supplier so that I could use that credit to replace the bad Avery vinyl with 3M/Gerber high performance.

They initially tried to just give me more bad avery vinyl for compensation. I said yea....that's just what want, MORE Bad Avery Vinyl.
-no thanks!


OK... now I see you said this is NOT Avery. ....Interesting

[Fred Weiss]

Is it cast or calendared vinyl? Is one layer cast and the other calendared?

[Techman]

Techman as far as the install what are you talking about.

well i see blisters and wrinkles.... do you?

[GB2]

It looks almost like you applied cast vinyl over calendared vinyl. From the pictures it looks as if the black layer is experiencing shrinkage and the top layer is not. That might explain the wrinkles and the "bunching".

What was the preparation method you used before applying the vinyl? It would also be helpful to know more details about the specific materials and the application methods, even if you don't want to name the brand you could still describe the specifications of each material.

[Bigdawg]

well i see blisters and wrinkles.... do you?


I think he's saying they weren't there when he installed... but have appeared more recently? Is that right Bob?

[rcook99]

Techman if you look at the original post you will see that the wrinkles were NOT there when it was installed. To clearify no those weren't there when the job was done.

[heyskull]

I don't think anyone has said this.
But was that vehicle freshly painted?
I haven't seen anything as bad as that in years and only when where I worked had a paint shop and the customers weren't willing to let us graphic there vehicles at a later date after been in the paintshop.
That looks like the paint is still outgassing!
This will cause bubbles and creases and affect the vinyl to shrink because of the solvents.
I have used Oracal 651 for years and never came up with any problems.

SC

[rcook99]

I had to look back at the paperwork and found the Black is a Cast vinyl and the burgandy is a Calendered vinyl. I figure this will help.

[heyskull]

I've used cast and caladered on top of each with no problem.
But it could be the problem.
Were the vehicles recently painted?

SC

[Bigdawg]

I had to look back at the paperwork and found the Black is a Cast vinyl and the burgandy is a Calendered vinyl. I figure this will help.

The calendared is shrinking on top of the cast... drawing it in...

EDITED TO ADD: I've found the reds and burgandys tend to shrink faster anyway... just my personal experience...

[Border]

I had to look back at the paperwork and found the Black is a Cast vinyl and the burgandy is a Calendered vinyl. I figure this will help.

I'd bet that's the problem. I've mixed the 2 before for a small, odd job here and there but never on a vehicle that sees extreme conditions.
At any rate, I'd say you don't stand a chance of warranty at all, having mixed the two.

[cptcorn]

I had to look back at the paperwork and found the Black is a Cast vinyl and the burgandy is a Calendered vinyl. I figure this will help.

That's your problem right there. Replace them all... Chalk it up to a learning experience... No manufacture will warranty what you did.

[Billct2]

Yowch....

[kraigsnowden]

Mosh actually had a good point. Are the 4' X 8's doing it? If they aren't...then you know it's something that the vehicle is going through, if they are...then yea, it's totally the cal/cast combo bittin' ya in the butt.

[Mosh]

I had to look back at the paperwork and found the Black is a Cast vinyl and the burgandy is a Calendered vinyl. I figure this will help.

There you go. Looks like you are re-lettering, sorry. :(

[Poconopete]

The white you see around the two layers is actually wax.

From ORACAL's site: Do not apply carnauba-based wax over vinyl graphics.

[kev3232]

Mosh I use a ton of Oracal 651 on vehicles (yes I offer 'em 751 but they always want cheap... you should understand that :smile:) and I've never seen that happen... I have vehicles that have been on the road upward of 4 years that still look good.

I don't understand the bunching underneath...

i'll send you some shots of oracal 651 from another supplier from about 3 years ago! crap!! even on flat surfaces!

[rcook99]

Ok I just checked the 4*8 sign.and that looks as good as the day I installed it. The sign backer is Fiber brite. So if the layered vinyl was the problem as some of you suggested in previous post why is it not a problem on the two other signs.

[Bigdawg]

I like my 651 and it has done well for me... both that and the 751 are what I use most. Can not stand Avery. I've used the Oracal for almost 5 years - not long I know but I never promised any more than 2 or 3 on the 651 to anyone... and it has wayyyy out performed that so far... and we layered the heck out of it (no printer then so about everything was cut vinyl)

But rcook's problem is mixing that calendared and cast IMHO... for ANY brand that is just not a good thing...

[Gino]

Without knowing the exact procedure you used... it looks like a combination of things.


Definitely the cal over cast is a BIG no~no.
The surface might've been contaminated, but I doubt it.
The company's cleaning procedure could be causing it, but again, I doubt it.
As mentioned, certain colors do shrink faster than others and I too agree that maroon is notorious for that.



The way the black has shrunk, and that's your cast part.... I think you have some faulty vinyl.


Over the years... almost all of these things you're all saying to avoid.... we have done for whatever reasons and for probably 98% of them... no failures. I believe if you use a good manufacturer and follow all of the proper steps involved in installation, you won't have a problem. Heck, sometimes just mixing different manufactures high performance [cast] will result in problems. Cast is not always interchangeable just because you switch brands to get a perfect color.

Now the trick question..... did you do these wet ??

That's the only thing we don't do when mixing things up a bit. :noway:


An after thought... I'm not suggesting or implying in any way, shape or form to mix grades of vinyl within a manufacturers grades or between various manufacturers... just that we did it without problems many many times. Follow the manufacturers warranties and instructions when installing anything and you should be fine. :thumb:

[Mosh]

I don't even stock any 651, we only use high performance on everything. Cheapo stuff like banners we print. Knock my pricing and my hair, but don't knock me for using cheap materials cause I don't do that!

[BadAss]

Well if your doing a horizontal surface, There is NO Warranty on it from any of the big 3 man. So as I was told if you do hoods, Do it in 651 and save the money. Cause if you spend the extra doe on 751 you will still have failure within a year. I am going through this "Right Now" and I have used 751 as Mosh, cause I only wanted to use Hi Per. But after a year the hoods on 34 tow trucks are doing exactly what your photos show. And they were all done in 751 and I charged more and told the client it was because we wanted them to last longer then the ones we have done over the years in 651. I get a call this week to come look at the trucks and sure enough, they look like hell. I call the rep. They say horizontal placement along with desert enviorment "Will not last a year cast or calendared".. So I get to re-do some hoods and try to get the customer to understand....

[Poconopete]

They say horizontal placement along with desert enviorment "Will not last a year cast or calendared"..
Interesting, so what did they use for the decals on hoods of say Trans Ams, Jeep Golden Eagles...

[rcook99]

These were all vertical applications on Chevy express vans.

[Border]

wet or dry install? Where were the 4x8s located/installed with what type of exposure?

[Mike Paul]

Looks like a typical Avery failure.
The cast black vinyl shows an irregular adhesive shrinkage line from 1/8in. - 1/4in. and long wrinkles will start to appear in the lettering.
The problem is the black not the burgundy.


Are you sure it wasn't manufactured by Avery and resold under a different name? why the secrecy?

[Mosh]

I have a logo on the hood of one of our service trucks out of 751, been on the 5-6 years, still looks good. We don't live in the desert though.....

[BadAss]

Interesting, so what did they use for the decals on hoods of say Trans Ams, Jeep Golden Eagles...
Don't know, But here is a pic of the hoods. They are less then a year and is 751 Oracal... M*

[Mosh]

Ouch! It must be hot and hostile down there. Are the sides lettered, if so how do they look? Is is just the red peeling?

[BadAss]

The sides look Great. And if you look closly you can see the blue cracking at the corners.. Yes it does get hot and there is nothing on the underside of the hoods to protect from the 1200 degree turbo diesel engine heat either. So between the 2, your screwed. So I will be redoing these (but in 651) as I am sure I will be doing it again in a year, Hey "Job Security"

[Mosh]

Give any thought of printing them?

[rcook99]

Mike Paul
Looks like a typical Avery failure.
The cast black vinyl shows an irregular adhesive shrinkage line from 1/8in. - 1/4in. and long wrinkles will start to appear in the lettering.
The problem is the black not the burgundy.


Are you sure it wasn't manufactured by Avery and resold under a different name? why the secrecy?


Mike Paul the reason for the secrecy is that I am not going to BASH a company that has not had the chance to stand behind there product. I have sent emails and am waiting for a return email or phone call. Once they have had a chance to respond to the problem wether positive or negative then and only then will I consider revealing the Company. I always tell my customers if there is a problem with the product I supply to contact me directly as I don't want my customers BASHING me. I would like a chance to investigate the problem. If it is my fault I will fix or replace it. I hope this helps you understand my feelings on this whole situation.



Border
wet or dry install? Where were the 4x8s located/installed with what type of exposure?

It was done wet and the double sided 4x8 is at the road facing N & S the other 4x8 is facing East mouted to the building.

[BadAss]

We did talk to the reps. But they said No Warranty on a Horinzontal install. My verticles look fine. I also asked rep. on 3M and was giving same info No Warranty on H. install. Mosh I would print but there is a large area of the logo that is the metallic silver 751 and I can't reproduce that on a printer. So we are kind of stuck redoing them. Good Luck Fairway and let us know what your rep says...

[rcook99]

We did talk to the reps. But they said No Warranty on a Horinzontal install. My verticles look fine. I also asked rep. on 3M and was giving same info No Warranty on H. install. Mosh I would print but there is a large area of the logo that is the metallic silver 751 and I can't reproduce that on a printer. So we are kind of stuck redoing them. Good Luck Fairway and let us know what your rep says...

Thanks BadAss I will be sure to keep all informed of the progress if any is made.

[Border]

The sides look Great. And if you look closly you can see the blue cracking at the corners.. Yes it does get hot and there is nothing on the underside of the hoods to protect from the 1200 degree turbo diesel engine heat either. So between the 2, your screwed. So I will be redoing these (but in 651) as I am sure I will be doing it again in a year, Hey "Job Security"

If you have to redo them all, I think that would be a PERFECT chance to use a few different brands on the various trucks, document which truck got what and then see how they hold up compared to each other. Then you're not putting all your eggs in one basket and you may just find a better product!
Let your client know and that you will stand by them either way.
You may never have a better chance to compare products in the real world.
In fact, that would be a great thread on it's own here, with updates every month or two!

I pay just about the same for 3M High perf as Oracal 751 so for me, it's a no brainer to use the best.

[BadAss]

Hey Border. My thoughts exactly. I talked with my rep and am trying to match up the colors with a couple of brands. Then we can keep track. The trucks are all the same models and styles, so it is a great oppertunity to compare what is out there. Apples to apples. I am hoping they can get me a few yards of what we need for the comparision. As yime goes on I will keep everyone up to date...M*

[QualitySigns]

I'm putting my money on cheap vinyl as the problem. I always use premium vinyls and have never, ever had a problem like that (knock on wood).

[signmeup]

Is someone selling old Avery stock and not telling anyone? What's it say on the liner?

I've had cast vinyl on the hood of my van for about 5 years with no trouble but, like Mosh, I'm not in the desert.

Badass....I'd print what ever you can and stick the metalic on after for one of the trucks you have to redo.

[Marlene]

I had to look back at the paperwork and found the Black is a Cast vinyl and the burgandy is a Calendered vinyl. I figure this will help.


I'm with those who said this was the issue. never use the two together. also, calendared vinyl is cheap stuff used for temp jobs.

[rcook99]

calendared vinyl is cheap stuff used for temp jobs

Well let me ask you and the others how you guys can say that calendered vinyl rated for 5-6 years is for temp jobs vs cast which is rated from 7-8 years. I can understand that if it was the cheap stuff yes that is rated for 1-2 yrs but 5-6yrs is not a temp job as far as I am concerned. Not looking to argue with anyone just trying to see where others are coming from.

[Bigdawg]

651 is cheaper... of course! It's calendared. But I think it's perfectly suited to vehicle graphics - especially when you know they'll only be on a couple years. I sell it as a 2-3 year product. And I sell it without loosing any sleep over not using 751 (my distributor doesn't carry the 3M line of regular vinyls).

If I sold it to 'em as a 5-6 yr solution... then I might be asking for it. But I don't. And I don't really care how the manufacturer rates them - I usually knock a year or two off what they say. I was talking to a guy that used to work for Oracal about 6 months ago and he told me that when the color was more stable they upped the rated life of the 651 from 3 years to 5 years because the color would last longer... had not a damn thing to do with the adhesiveness or anything else.

Just my 2 cents.

[rcook99]

Hey Bigdawg, I can understand you not selling it as a 5-6yr vinyl living in your area with the sun and the UV's. Depending on which area you are intalling the vinyl in will be the basis of your warranty as some companies actually have a breakdown of different zones based on the weather conditions.

[Bigdawg]

I sold it as 2-3 year in Tennessee too. I just don't trust ANY calendared much longer than that....

[Jillbeans]

Looks like the Avery failures I've had.
Obviously the black has shrunken and taken the burgundy along for the ride.
Odd that the 4'x8' is still OK though.
Love....Jill

[signage]

Rob sunlight and UV are one issue but we have wide temperature swings that also have different effects on the vinyls/adhesives. Also what you are seeing could be caused by the temperature swings that the vinyl is seeing! Remember the the flat sign doesn't get any heating from the other side while the vehicles get warmed up from the inside out during our winter months! So that may have caused the issue with the vehicles while the sign isn't experiencing it!

[cptcorn]

I'm gonna say the opposite of everyone here.

The black did not shrink at all. What's happening is that when you lay cast down, it wont shrink beyond a certain amount, that's great. When you put a calendared film down its going to contract/expand more than what the cast film will... So if you mix the two and put cast on the bottom and calendared on top the calendared film will shrink more than the cast. Any movement on top layer, say 1mm, will pull that base (cast film) towards it. The further you get from that calendared film the greater that distance will be. So minor movement towards the center equals a large distance further away.

In my example here. Blue = Force of the vinyl contracting. The green circles represent reinforcement. So that will effect the shrinking of the calendared film on top. Think of it as lining up a print for a laminator, any tiny adjustment when you line up your print at the beginning, say 1/16" will equate to 1" after 120" of material is fed through. This is the same idea that's happening when that calendared film shrinks a tiny bit, the black will shrink even more further away from where the shrinking is occurring.

5-6 year vinyl matched with 7-10 year vinyl is irrelevant. The tolerances for the shrinking of both are very different. You should not use them together at all.

[Marlene]

Well let me ask you and the others how you guys can say that calendered vinyl rated for 5-6 years is for temp jobs vs cast which is rated from 7-8 years. I can understand that if it was the cheap stuff yes that is rated for 1-2 yrs but 5-6yrs is not a temp job as far as I am concerned. Not looking to argue with anyone just trying to see where others are coming from.

calendered vinyl is OK for jobs that aren't going to be around very long, even if they say it lasts for 5-6 years, it isn't made as well as cast vinyl so it will do things that cast won't like shrink, pull up, crack or just fall off. calender is cheaper. a quick comparison from Grimco. 3M, 4 mil, 5 year calender vinyl sells for $57.95 for a 15" x 50 yard roll of colored. 3M, 2 mil cast, 7 year sell for $161.95 for a 15" x 50 yard roll. that's a big difference in price and you get a better product with less issues for the cost. there are a lot of people on the site that use it and I have no problem with it, but when things happen, you have to be prepared for that.

[insignia]

cptcorn has it. You can't put calendered on top of cast no matter what. Calendered will shrink and expand much more than cast. If the two are layered, the calendered will pull the cast with it, causing what you're seeing here.

[encadtech]

In response to BadAsss' problem - I had some similiar issues w/ hood graphics - Seal the edges w/ a seal-it pen. No problems since

[cptcorn]

calendered vinyl is OK for jobs that aren't going to be around very long, even if they say it lasts for 5-6 years, it isn't made as well as cast vinyl so it will do things that cast won't like shrink, pull up, crack or just fall off. calender is cheaper. a quick comparison from Grimco. 3M, 4 mil, 5 year calender vinyl sells for $57.95 for a 15" x 50 yard roll of colored. 3M, 2 mil cast, 7 year sell for $161.95 for a 15" x 50 yard roll. that's a big difference in price and you get a better product with less issues for the cost. there are a lot of people on the site that use it and I have no problem with it, but when things happen, you have to be prepared for that.

I wont debate the price of the material... But how do you discount your end product enough to make it a "valuble" savings to the customer...

100sq ft job, would cost you $31 to produce with the calendared vinyl. With cast it would cost you $86. (ROUGHLY)... so lets just say the customer is billed out $6/sq for cast vinyl. This ends up being a $600 job for cast vinyl. How much do you bill them for the cheap stuff? $545 ? Becasue the amount of work is absolutely the same, the only thing that changes is the difference in material price, which is practically nothing. How would $545 look so much better for cheap vinyl than $600 for the best?

I'm not attacking anyone, just curious how people give such deeeeeep discounts by using cheap vinyl compared to good stuff.

[scarface]

Yeah i totally agree. There isn't much of a difference in price but if you tell someone it will be $400 for "the cheap stuff" and $550 for the premium they will most likely pick the cheap stuff everytime.

I have used Calendered vinyl for years with no problems. Depending on how long it needs to be on the surface and the surfaces situation (rivets, curves ect), i will use cast.

People need to understand that vinyl still breaks down though.

[cptcorn]

Yeah i totally agree. There isn't much of a difference in price but if you tell someone it will be $400 for "the cheap stuff" and $550 for the premium they will most likely pick the cheap stuff everytime.

I have used Calendered vinyl for years with no problems. Depending on how long it needs to be on the surface and the surfaces situation (rivets, curves ect), i will use cast.

People need to understand that vinyl still breaks down though.

This is exactly what I'm getting at... That's a huge price difference. Where is that difference from? I've seen soo many people quote stuff out like... well I'm paying 1/2 for materials, so the overall job should be 1/2 ...

[scarface]

This is exactly what I'm getting at... That's a huge price difference. Where is that difference from? I've seen soo many people quote stuff out like... well I'm paying 1/2 for materials, so the overall job should be 1/2 ...

I guess perceived value would determine the pricing difference.

[signage]

Scarface what I Cptcorn is saying is if you are willing to discount your labor on the cheaper vinyl you are taking on a bigger liability if it fails because the amount of labor to do the job the first time isn't changing and the cheaper vinyl is more likely to fail!
I would think that if you wanted to keep your reputation you would be better off discounting the labor and using the cast vinyl. Now this bring up a new point should your labor costs be hight to allow for this, that is your decision!

[sfr table hockey]

I wont debate the price of the material... But how do you discount your end product enough to make it a "valuble" savings to the customer...

100sq ft job, would cost you $31 to produce with the calendared vinyl. With cast it would cost you $86. (ROUGHLY)... so lets just say the customer is billed out $6/sq for cast vinyl. This ends up being a $600 job for cast vinyl. How much do you bill them for the cheap stuff? $545 ? Becasue the amount of work is absolutely the same, the only thing that changes is the difference in material price, which is practically nothing. How would $545 look so much better for cheap vinyl than $600 for the best?

I'm not attacking anyone, just curious how people give such deeeeeep discounts by using cheap vinyl compared to good stuff.

:goodpost::goodpost:
cptcorn just said what I've been trying to use to figure what my sell should be on lower priced media and high priced media.

This is the way to price things. A job should be the same price to print and apply Using the cheap stuff or the Highest priced stuff. Price the value to do the job, then add the price for materials used later. Lets say If your cost for material is $50 to do the job for low quality material you add $100 (double). To use best quality media $125 so you add $250. The end cost for the customer is only $150 difference.

[BadAss]

In response to BadAsss' problem - I had some similiar issues w/ hood graphics - Seal the edges w/ a seal-it pen. No problems since
I will try that on a few of the new trucks and put it into our findings as the time goes by. Thanx for the tip...M*

[Checkers]

Well that sucks Rob.

The first thing that popped into my mind is Avery. But, After reading your follow up posts, it appears to be a combination of incompatible materials and, (although I never heard of it before) contamination from wax or cleaner.

I hope you documented everything, used the same brand of materials for both layers and have a great relationship with your supplier. If not, it's probably not going to be an easy claim to win.

Checkers