new machine is driving me crazy [Archive]

bob

02-23-2006, 06:46 PM

I bought a new FC7000-75 tuesday, After I got it to quit throwing the roll of vinyl on the floor I got it to cut, now I've wasted 20 yrds today by the machie just stopping and saying load media, It seems to me it is uncovering the rear sensor and causing this, anyone have an idea on how to make this quit happening..

Turn on the Auto Pre-feed function. It defaults to 3' which is sufficent unless you have some specific reason for setting something else. This will tend to keep the roll of media on the feed rollers. For small rolls less than 5-10 yards, set the Auto Pre-feed speed to slow rather than normal. This will keep the smaller rolls on the feed rollers.

The 'Load Media' display is almost certainly due to feeding media back into the machine, the -X direction, at flank speed. The media has sufficient inertia so that it can't fall as fast as the plotter is feeding it so it builds up sort of a standing wave that exposes the rear sensor to sufficient incidental light to make it think the end of the media has sailed on by. Set the pen up speed to 'Automatic' which is the same as the pen down speed or lower. Dimming the lights in the are can also mitigate this. Make sure that media coming back into the machine in the -X direction has a suitable place to go. You can also make some ad-hoc dampers out of sutiable card stock and tape them to the back to the machine to force the media to stay down over the sensor. Or, last resort, turn the sensors off.

All in all it sounds like you might be trying to move and/or cut at warp speed. Never a good idea on any cutter.

The FC7000 is a great machine, I wouldn't trade mine for 2 of anything else, but you still have to set things up properly.

srt10x3

02-23-2006, 08:46 PM

I contacted Tech support on Tuesday and still waiting for them to call back...

contact Jane Hicks at Graphtec

Her email is jhicks@graphtecusa.com

She can push support to get back with you ASAP.

Craig

uneedasign

02-24-2006, 09:40 AM

We called tec support yesterday morning. and still waiting, but this is a big help found a lot of imfo on their web page graphtecusa.com click on support scroll to bottom of page and look for support downloads. Good luck!

arcobaleno

03-24-2006, 02:36 PM

Has anyone got a GRAPHTEC FC-4210 and managed to cut and crease at the same time. i am finding it difficult to do both tasks at the same time with Signgo. Can anyone suggest a suitable software that can enable both Pens to do the tasks.

Any help is appreciated.

Howard Keiper

03-24-2006, 05:04 PM

Don't bother Jane. Bother Opie instead. Opie is the right guy and can be reached at gabustan@graphtecusa.com .

hk

Neil

05-22-2006, 03:51 AM

When I first received my FC7000-75 it came without a stand and the sensor would kick in all the time. I figured it was because the cutter was sitting on my bench.
Now I have the stand and the rear sensor still kicks in!

I cut a lot of 24" vinyl (as do most people I presume), so the sensor is positioned quite close to the edge of the 24" vinyl. This I feel leads to the problem of the sensor activating too easily.

So here's a suggestion to the brainiac designers at Graphtec:
How about an option to "continue" or "cancel" whenever the machine wrongly thinks it's run out of media.

There's obviously a design flaw with the sensor, so at least give us the option to ignore it and keep cutting instead of having it stopping dead in it's tracks, with the job irretrievably lost.

Arlo Kalon

05-22-2006, 07:44 AM

Turn on the Auto Pre-feed function. It defaults to 3' which is sufficent unless you have some specific reason for setting something else. This will tend to keep the roll of media on the feed rollers. For small rolls less than 5-10 yards, set the Auto Pre-feed speed to slow rather than normal. This will keep the smaller rolls on the feed rollers.

The 'Load Media' display is almost certainly due to feeding media back into the machine, the -X direction, at flank speed. The media has sufficient inertia so that it can't fall as fast as the plotter is feeding it so it builds up sort of a standing wave that exposes the rear sensor to sufficient incidental light to make it think the end of the media has sailed on by. Set the pen up speed to 'Automatic' which is the same as the pen down speed or lower. Dimming the lights in the are can also mitigate this. Make sure that media coming back into the machine in the -X direction has a suitable place to go. You can also make some ad-hoc dampers out of sutiable card stock and tape them to the back to the machine to force the media to stay down over the sensor. Or, last resort, turn the sensors off.

All in all it sounds like you might be trying to move and/or cut at warp speed. Never a good idea on any cutter.

The FC7000 is a great machine, I wouldn't trade mine for 2 of anything else, but you still have to set things up properly.

bob... I've never even owned one of these plotters, but I read this thread entirely. Your suggestions to correct the problem made sense even to me - a non owner. I'm amazed that what you said seems to have been entirely overlooked - EVEN after you said you have one of these and your setup you described fixed the problem! Amazing sometimes how these things play out.

signage

05-22-2006, 07:50 AM

Either slow down the machine more or pre-feed enough of the media to keep it from pulling from the roll!

Techman

05-22-2006, 10:54 AM

slow down the machine more or

This is why I post that cutter speed is an irelevant point when purchasing a cutter. 400 IPS means nothing if the material cannot get out of its own way or bunches up so high that it triggers the safety sensors..

Even my lean, mean, ever faithhfull ol' Anagraph will do the same as posted above when running at full spead..

Neil

05-22-2006, 09:34 PM

bob... I've never even owned one of these plotters, but I read this thread entirely. Your suggestions to correct the problem made sense even to me - a non owner. I'm amazed that what you said seems to have been entirely overlooked - EVEN after you said you have one of these and your setup you described fixed the problem! Amazing sometimes how these things play out.

Don't assume these suggestions have been overlooked:

I have pre-feed on - it's a pain in itself but thats another story.

I have slowed down the cutter - to around half of what it's advertised to be able to cut at.

I have rigged up a roller at the rear to help hold down the vinyl - that works but gets knocked off sometimes.

I haven't tried working in the dark yet so can't attest to that.

The point I was making is they should realize the problem exists and write something in the firmware to give us the option to "continue" when it does.

Howard Keiper

05-23-2006, 09:44 AM

Neil...
Some personal observations / opinions:

I agree that pre-feed is a pain; it is, however, an effective means of controling the sudden jerk you can get if you haven't pulled enough material off the roll before you start. Effective or not, it's still hard for me to get used to.

I learned a long time ago that the speed of any cutter is not measured in inches / sec measured at the machine; rather, it's more practically measured on the weeding table and it's measured in numbers of successful, error free jobs cut / hour or / day. Speed is but one term in the throughput equation, and a minor one at that...as techman correctly observes.

And if you like thinking in terms of throughput, then you've got to consider whether you can cut certain materials at all...or how well. There was a cutter introduced several years ago advertised as the fastest plotter on the market, and so it was, too. The problem was, as many noticed, that the tops of 'T's sagged, the 'O's didn't close perfectly, the legs of 'A's and "W's weren't even, etc., etc. It didn't take long for the speed freaks to realize that having to do a job over made for a less than fast machine.

Maybe speed could be measured in Pounds...of scrap in the waste barrel ??

Neil

05-23-2006, 10:59 AM

Thanks for your reply Howard.
I agree with your point that the speed of the machine is not as important if the weeding is faster. The Graphtec is certainly good in this respect.
I use the Tangential 2 setting and I find the weeding to be far quicker and easier than with my previous machine.

I put up my post after I had 2 consecutive jobs trashed because the sensor kicked in. The most frustrating aspect of this for me is that there's no way to continue when the sensor activates.

The machine has already pre-fed the media - so it knows there's media there. So why should it suddenly assume there's no media there and not give us the chance to confirm or deny with a simple "continue/cancel" option.

I'd like to hear if you think these sort of suggestions can be implemented in future firmware releases.

I have a few other suggestions too.
Hopefully these can be regarded as constructive ideas by end users and taken on board by the designers/coders. Much like software development is ongoing, I feel this machine can be even better with future firmware revisions.

Howard Keiper

05-23-2006, 11:33 AM

One of the things that can make a difference if the sensor is too sensitive (as many of them are) is to kill just the rear one by putting a piece of tape over the port. This will also kill the SHEET function, but ROLL 2 substitutes well in most cases anyway.
But to your question. Graphtec is always receptive to legitimate suggestions re product improvement. Getting those suggestions implemented is another matter. If a hardware change is required, well, it's difficult at best. Firmware changes that modify the behavior of existing features or operations are easy and we do that quite often. Since there already is a CONTINUE function (which allows one to aviod re-initialization when the pinch rollers are raised), maybe that could be utilized somehow. In any case, since you seem to have given this a lot of thought, you should get in touch with our product manager, Neal Baessler, at 1-800-854-8385 x1119, or e-mail him at nbaessler@graphtecamerica.com. Neal takes these things to heart and will get an answer for you, like it or not :))

hk

NBaessler

05-23-2006, 04:54 PM

Neil or anyone for that matter,
I would be happy to take your suggestions and see if we can get them implemented. My email address is nbaessler@graphtecamerica.com.

I have reported that issue about being able to continue with a job even when the sensor stops the job. Although maybe the best answer is to see if we can reduce it's sensitivity

nb

Neil

05-23-2006, 10:18 PM

Thankyou Howard and Neal. I was hoping you'd come on board and provide an avenue to discuss these things. I'll contact Neal shortly.

I have difficulty contacting tech support here in Australia, although they did come back to me recently and adjusted a sensor in the cutter head.
Is there something they can do manually to reduce the rear sensor sensitivity?

I don't like covering it up. I have a small piece of magnetic sheet sitting alongside the sensor which I can slide across to cover it up, but then I run the risk of having the cutter pre-feed out all the media and not know about it.

NBaessler

05-26-2006, 04:25 PM

Neil,
Unfortunately you can't. I have reported this issue to the engineers. You are welcome to email me for an answer.

Neal.

Howard Keiper

05-26-2006, 05:51 PM

I haven't tried this (yet), but maybe a patch of that frosty looking Scotch tape or two might diffuse light enough to desensitize that sensor??
hk

Neil

05-30-2006, 09:57 AM

That's a great idea Howard.
I covered it with some frosted etch vinyl and have cut several things so far without any problems. Will continue to evaluate it for now but so far so good!

NBaessler

05-31-2006, 11:44 AM

Hi Neil,

I talked with some of our engineers last night about this problem and they suggested that if you have stand, you should mount the brackets on the stand rather than the head. This way it will lower the roll of vinyl allowing the vinyl to cover the sensor. It will also lessen the effect of the media, as it is moving back into the cutter (-X direction), from rubbing against the roll causing it to bubble up (which will allow the light to reach the sensor).

I don't know if I am in complete agreement with this as being a solution so please view this a temporary solution. If you try this step, please report to me the results if you can at nbaessler@graphtecamerica.com.

Neal Baessler.

Flame

05-31-2006, 12:00 PM

Bummer about the problems. Wish I could help, but I'm a newbie to the FC7000 myself (I have the 100). It has worked perfectly for me though. Even better than I thought it would. My favorite plotter I've ever used. :thumb:

Neil

06-01-2006, 03:02 AM

Update: covering the sensor with frosted renders the sensor inactive. In fact I even tried clear scotch tape and that too blocks out the sensor!
So it's just like covering it with magnetic or similar.

Neal, I have mounted the rollers on the stand. That was the reason I got the stand, because the problem was happening a lot more often when I was using it as a desk top.

robpruitt

06-03-2006, 06:48 PM

I have a Vinyl Express Q75 which is the exact same thing but black. The Vinyl Express are Graphtecs but are made for Sign Warehouse exclusively... anyway. I had the same problems you are having and found that I had the media lock on. It prevents the bars in the back from spinning (for easy loading) and if it's locked the roll of vinyl will get knocked right on the floor.

The problem with getting the "load media" message most likely has to do with the positioning of the rollers. There are little marks on the aluminum bar that the cutter slides on that shows you exactly where to place the rollers. If you don't place them there it would mean that the top rollers won't match with the bottom rollers and you'll have problems. So, make sure they are matched and that your media lock is off and you should be in business.

BTW I think your model is the best possible 30" cutter you can buy (except; if you would have bought my model you would have basically gotten a 3 year warranty for the same price you paid :( ). I'm cutting 50 real estate signs and I'm near the end of my 30" 50yard roll and I haven't had to adjust the tracking once. My weeding time is really minimul and I cut fonts that I don't think many other people would touch and that I would have refused to do on the Master at the Reprographics shop I worked at a while back. I've used several cutters and I think your model owns them all. Don't feel bad about your purchase because there is nothing better out there. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm bragging. I just really love my cutter.

NBaessler

06-05-2006, 02:52 PM

Neil,

Thanks for the report. GOOD NEWS is that the engineers have duplicated the problem and should have a fix by the end of this month!!!

BTW Bob ... I meant to mention that you were dead on about the plotter causing this error when the plotter is going in the -X direction.

Neal Baessler
Graphtec

emo1959

06-05-2006, 04:01 PM

Rick,

I've always just put a piece of tape over the rear sensor.

Eileen

robpruitt

06-05-2006, 04:50 PM

You know; within minutes of making my last post I put a pretty heavy roll of vinyl in my machine and started getting the "load media" error. I knew I should have knocked on wood. I'm glad to know that this is a problem that they are working on because the machine has worked great. For the mean time I unroll a bit on vinyl before I work on a project so that machine doesn't have to pull so hard. It's a good bandaid for now at least.

Neil

06-06-2006, 09:49 AM

Neal, that's great news that they can fix the problem.
As it is, I couldn't imagine that the cutter could be used as a desktop model without continually getting the "Load Media" message.
I'm glad there is this forum to enable users to discuss these things, and to know that they can be relayed to the engineers.

I still have some other points to bring up with you, which I'll do by email first.

Rob, you'll get that same "load Media!" error if you don't pre-feed the media and it suddenly pulls against the roll.
This is also a bit touchy IMHO and could also benefit from allowing us to continue instead of just coming to a sudden dead stop half way through a plot.

I don't like using the Auto Pre-Feed, so I don't have it on.
Instead I try to remember to spool out enough vinyl for the plot.
You can do this with the down arrow, and look at the display till it reaches the desired amount. You don't have to re-wind the vinyl, as it goes back to the origin automatically when you send the data for cutting.

robpruitt

06-06-2006, 11:36 AM

This is also a bit touchy IMHO and could also benefit from allowing us to continue instead of just coming to a sudden dead stop half way through a plot.
Can you please clarify what you mean by this? Are you saying that my posts were interrupting you? LOL; I just can't seem to make friends here. Don't worry, i'll keep quiet.

Neil

06-06-2006, 10:53 PM

Hehe, that gave me a chuckle Rob!
That's not what I meant at all.
Let me see if I can clarify....

I originally hijacked this thread voicing my concerns about the "load Media!" message and how it activates too easily with no way to cancel it.

My suggestion was to have the machine allow us to "Continue" whenever we get that message - instead of just irretrievably stopping.

Hence, this... ("allowing us to continue instead of just coming to a sudden dead stop half way through a plot.) is talking about the machine, not you!

By all means, interrupt away! - thats the purpose of these forums. That's a good point you make about the "load Media!" message activating from the slightest tug of the roll.

Hence, this...(This is also a bit touchy IMHO and could also benefit from allowing us to continue...)

So I hope you re-read the post as it was intended and continue to add to it whenever something comes up...

Custom Bob

08-27-2006, 12:03 AM

Cover the rear sensors with a piece of vinyl. Then move the roller holder up as high as you can so the roll can't fall off, the stand and plotter hold it on the rollers if it jumps up. Thats what we did to cure the problem.

Sign-Man Signs

09-13-2006, 09:39 PM

Ditto: We have a QE 50 VE and it did the same thing until we covered the sensor. Now if I can just figure out the damn ARM system to contour cut....

EndlessOptions

09-13-2006, 09:53 PM

Ditto: We have a QE 50 VE and it did the same thing until we covered the sensor. Now if I can just figure out the damn ARM system to contour cut....

I have the FC5100 and gave up on the ARM, I use the laser bombsite and the generic 4 pt. registration marks and it works great EVERYTIME. The ARM I think is another work in progress by Graphtec.

tdgraphics

09-15-2006, 06:42 PM

Just looking at these posts and we had a problem with our FC-5100, (about 8 years old now). What was happening was when the roll was being fed through the cutter quickly, the lever that lowers the pinch rollers was moving ever so slightly. It would then say, 'Load Media' etc and yet once it had stopped, everything seemed to be fine.

Got Graphtec in the UK to service it and they tightened up a few things and the machine has been fine for the past 4 years.

Just check if there is any play in the lowering lever for the pinch rollers.

dzign

10-31-2006, 01:03 PM

I just got an FC7000-130. I'm running an Ioline Super88 - 30" until I get all the low downs on this new machine. Regarding the flying roll problem, I'm not sure if this relates to this machine, but I insert the leading edge of the vinyl between the rollers that support the roll before resting the roll on top of them and loop the vinyl under the front roller then up to the plotter and feed it into the rear of the machine. I usually run the machine about half speed and make sure there's plenty of material pulled off the roll before I start to cut. But this is an Ioline running without the auto-feed function.

willy21414

10-31-2006, 03:08 PM

oops wrong place! sorry

ahollow

12-06-2006, 12:00 PM

Looks like firmware version 1.80 will "fix" the Load Media screen and allow the option to continue with cutting.

Thanks Graphtec!

Derf

12-06-2006, 12:11 PM

I have a new FC-7000-130 and this crap happened to me in the middle of a huge run of 48" vinyl!

I now just put a piece of tape over the sensor and remove it when cutting sheets!

Neil

12-10-2006, 07:54 AM

Looks like firmware version 1.80 will "fix" the Load Media screen and allow the option to continue with cutting.

Thanks Graphtec!
:cool1: Thanks for letting us know Allan.
I've downloaded and uploaded, but I must admit I'm used to life without a rear sensor now ( covered permanently with vinyl).
Still, I may as well try it to see how it goes.
It's good to know that Graphtec take this stuff on board and can tweak the firmware as needed.

Buddy

12-10-2006, 08:35 AM

We've owned around 6 or 8 Graphtecs. Starting back before the 3100 series (what was that...the 2100 I think). We still have a couple of 3100's and a 4100 and a 5100.

The hardware integrity and firmware has progressively gotten worse since the 3100. In all the years, we have never had an older machine go down (2100, 3100). They are absolute work horses and should be enshrined. But we have a difficult time keeping the 4100 and 5100 out of the the shop for repairs. We've had our 4100 back to Graphtec 3 times in the first year and the 5100 has been in for repairs as well. And I might add Graphtec was a total pain to work with. It's a good thing we had several plotters to fall back on. It took around 2 months to get that plotter fixed. I'm just glad we didn't spend the extra money while there to install the ARM.

Instead of buying a 7000 series....we switched over to MUTOH because of the above reasons. Spent a truck load of $$ on the Mutoh, they list around $8,000.....but it's stil too early to tell how we like the Mutoh Ultima cutter. That cutter actually communicates back and forth bi-directional with the computer to create what they call extreme ease of use / contour cutting.

Heck.....at the last sign show we went to, I even had our sales rep who sells Graphtec (no names mentioned) tell us and demonstrate how Graphtec cutters were now pretty "cheezy".

Plus the new Graphtecs every since the 3100 series will not allow you to pause and roll forward to test your cutting and change the setting mid-stream and then continue with the changed settings. You have to finish the cut and see what you got when done.

Also aligning the media has always been a joke. Back with the 2100 series Graphtec sold alignment strips with alignment lines on them that you stuck (adhesive backed) to your machine so you could visually align your media straight. Simple and it worked. With the Mutoh on contour cutting you don't have to align the vinyl. Put it in straight or skewed doesn't matter....it finds the print and contour cuts no matter.

Graphtec demonstrates you to pull your media thru and wrap it around the bar and that sort of thing to first align and load your media. That takes too long and seems rinky dink to me.

Not meaning to offend by saying your kid is ugly or something like that....but just being honest and contributing to the poll here.

gabagoo

12-10-2006, 10:13 AM

I have a Graphtec 53" cutter and the first thing I did when we set it up was put vinyl on the sensor. I usually have a handle on how much material I need and never worry about it running out. I do unroll enough to be able to walk away, although I have found that 48" vinyl has a tendancy to bunch up causing creases and the occasional jam up. Our machine is a workhorse and we have never had any problems with it. Watch out winter is coming and that can be a shocking experience...lol

I do have a complaint about the teflon strip required and just why they cost so much. But the real complaint is getting the old one off as it releases completely from the adhesive. The only way I have found to remove the adhesive completely is to rub my thumb along the leading edge all the way. It takes a good 20 minutes and usually makes for a tender thumb for a day or so.

Buddy

12-10-2006, 06:53 PM

Try it if you want.....regarding vinyl bunching up like mentioned with 48'' material and even not as wide material. I pull one of the grit rollers in away from the outside edge.

For example: On 36 inch vinyl I set the grit rollers at around 24 or 30 inches apart. And on 24 inch vinyl I set the grit clamp rollers at around 18 inches or so. I have found the tracking is better, more reliable and the vinyl doesn't bunch up.

BUDDY

Neil

12-11-2006, 01:37 AM

The hardware integrity and firmware has progressively gotten worse since the 3100..

It's funny, the reason I bought this machine was because I knew the old models were great cutters, so I thought the new models must have everything finely tuned by now.

Like our Sign software keeps evolving - getting bugs and quirks ironed out along the way - I expected this machine to incorporate good design in the interface. Instead I get the feeling the designer has never actually used a cutter.

Example: when you load a new roll if you hit the up or down arrow it will switch from rear roll loading to front roll loading!!??.
Something that you need to access once in your life is so easily activated you end up doing it accidently.

But God forbid if you want to cut off a sheet, you need to press a sequence of 5 different buttons?? Sheesh, which committee thought of that?

Buddy

12-11-2006, 09:32 AM

Neil you are exactly right when you say...."I get the feeling the designer has never actually used the cutter." You hit the nail on the head.

Manufacturers need to spend a day or two or three in a production type sign shop where things are happening. Then they would KNOW what features are needed on their equipment and what features are worthless.

Most plotters are capable of doing incredible advanced functions. But when it comes to the simple tasks like you mentioned (quick cut off for example) you end having to stumble around with several steps to get it to do this simple task.

I've noticed that same thing with our sign software. As it develops and becomes capable of doing more things (as if you couldn't use CorelDRAW or Adobe anyway)....the latest greatest versions of the same sign software (at least the one we use) becomes a major pain in the butt to use. Whereas the first generation of software you can have employees up and running in no time. But the latest greatest versions it takes major training investments.

Intesting.

In the auto industry they call that feature fatigue. The latest BMW's came out with over 600 computerized functions capable and everyone hated it. Couldn't figure it out. The response by Mercedes was to omit some several hundred computerized features in order to be more user friendly to consumers.

Go figer......

signrik

01-07-2007, 05:19 PM

Thanks guys for this thread I have a graphtec and the same problem now and then and it makes me mad I thought it was the way I tightened the vinyl down How do you lot do it, you need three hands, I put a little bit of masking tape on the right side and then with the pinch rollers up I tighten the vinyl by pulling it to the left and then with the other hand lower the rollers I am convinced that it helps but not cures this error because when not doing it I see a wave of vinyl moving with the cutter blade which i think gives more light to the sensor
But I am very new to this game and no one has shown me the ropes I have another little stupid problem and that is i set the speed lower and it looks god so I start the operation and the machine ignores my new conditions and jumps to original settings I made when I first installed the machine which is speed 50 I would love to know what is the best average speed in fact what are your average settings for speed quality etc and how to change it properly also what is the longest sign you could be expected to make without it messing up, my plotter is 2.5 ft wide and is a FC cheers rik

iSign

01-07-2007, 05:52 PM

I never read most of this thread, but I do have a small Graphtec CE1000-60, so I can only think to mention that after I alter a setting such as speed, or force... if I hit "next page" I will leave the screen i hadmade the change in & I might not see that it didn't accept the change... but it won't have... I would need to hit "enter" after making the change, in order to hold that change until firther notice. I don't know, but that could be where you are missing a step.

I try not to cut more then 10 feet when I can help it... & I try not to encounter too many long (6' - 10') runs of the material back & forth if i can avoid it. Just plugging along letter by letter usually brings good results, but on something like cutting a batch of striping... I've seen the vinyl work itself out of alignment, or into a puckering up in the center situation due to slippage from under the grit wheel, resulting from excessive long trips back & forth.

On striping, I've learned to draw one long unbroken back & forth line that maps out a series of consistent width strips & cuts down on the alternative where my blade picked up & traveled 10 feet doing nothing just to get back to where it wanted to start working.