Lighted sign project

[phototec]

Lighted sign project, customer wants me to change the face of the sign, but I have never done this kind before, and need some help from the experienced members here.

I have attached some photos of what I will be working with, the metal fixture appears to have a metal frame on the front and the graphics looks like it's applied vinyl over the face which is not a rigid plexi or acrylic, but rather feels like it is a thin skin stretched tight, kind of like on a drum. I have no idea what the material is or where to get it. Outer dimension is 23-1/2" x 118".

Questions:

Anyone know what kind of sign this is and if the vinyl can be removed from the translucent face material?

How is this this translucent material attached to the face frame, and what is this translucent material (feels very thin and stretched tightly)?

How is the translucent material attached to the front of the chrome frame?

Should I just get new translucent material for the front and apply new cut translucent vinyl, similar to the existing sign face?

The outside chrome frame looks pretty beat up, could that be wrapped with vinyl to make it look better?

Like I said, this is the first time I have seen a frame like this and don't know anything about it. Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks

:rolleyes:

[andy]

The face material is a woven flex face fabric which I wouldn't even bother trying to strip... it'll take forever to remove the graphics and it's easy to nick the material which will then cause it to split. Many Flex face fabrics are finished in a similar way to banners.... with welded pockets on all four sides. These pockets accept a metal rod which gives the tension system something secure to pull against... if you put a new face onto the box you can simply copy the old fabric pattern.

The Chrome frame is a cover which is hiding the tension hardware... there should be small rivets or self tapping screws holding it to the main cabinet. Take the Chrome beading off and you'll have access to the internal workings. The tension system is either a cleat based offering, a ratchet design or built with small stainless steel springs. All flex face cabinet manufacturers use a slightly different design but this shouldn't be a problem as long as you carefully record how all the parts fit together and make sure you keep all the tension components ready for refitting the new face.

The existing face will be tensioned in a specific order.... normally you start top left and then work from top to bottom, left to right. Flex faces need to be carefully tensioned to iron out wrinkles & creases... that's why there is usually a tension order which you need to follow.

As for vinyl... you've got to be careful which type of film you use. As the name suggests this is a flexible substrate system which will move and stretch. If memory serves there is a special type of back lit flex face vinyl which is more like a banner vinyl... it's designed to stretch with the fabric. Printing would be an easier option but the key thing is ink coverage.... if you don't get enough ink on the fabric it looks a mess when it's back lit.

I can't see why you couldn't wrap the Chrome beading... it's just aluminium with a Chrome plate finish.

If I were you I'd find someone who printed & finished flex face panels.... take out the old material, box it up & FedEx it over to them and they'll have a pattern which will ensure a pretty easy transition from old face to new.

[phototec]

Andy, thanks for the info, you are right on, looking closely at the white area between the silver vinyl on the background and the black text, the material kind of looks like it has a very fine fabric texture coated with PVC.

Who is the manufacture of woven flex face fabric, and is this the correct name of that type of material so I can do a Google search?

My Google search for "Flex Face light box sign system" only list companies in the UK, I'm in Texas.

Now that I have a better understanding of what I am dealing with, I will attempt to open the cabinet and see what kind of stretching system is used.

Thank for the detailed explanation, exactly what I needed.


:thankyou:

[phototec]

Hey Guys, can anyone give me some help?

Where can I get some flex sign face material?

What type of translucent vinyl should I use?

Thanks

:thankyou:

[MikePro]

check with your supplier, if you have one that supplies banner material... they'll know what flex-face material for illuminated signage is and can most likely sell it to you by the short roll.

we use UltraFlex brand, i believe. if you get to use the old the sign, you can most likely reuse the clips that attach/stretch the flexface to the sign. Vinyl used is no different from any translucent vinyl you currently use. If part of the sign is not meant to light, we use a layer of opaque vinyl on the face combined with a layer of black applied to the back with the illuminated portion weeded out.

as far as taking it apart, there's most likely a frame that you can remove to expose the flex-face mounting system. they should be just a series of clips attached to the flexface that unscrew from the sign cabinet.

[phototec]

check with your supplier, if you have one that supplies banner material... they'll know what flex-face material for illuminated signage is and can most likely sell it to you by the short roll.

we use UltraFlex brand, i believe. if you get to use the old the sign, you can most likely reuse the clips that attach/stretch the flexface to the sign. Vinyl used is no different from any translucent vinyl you currently use. If part of the sign is not meant to light, we use a layer of opaque vinyl on the face combined with a layer of black applied to the back with the illuminated portion weeded out.

as far as taking it apart, there's most likely a frame that you can remove to expose the flex-face mounting system. they should be just a series of clips attached to the flexface that unscrew from the sign cabinet.

MikePro, thanks, I need all the help I can get, this is the first one like this for me.

Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

:thankyou:

[iSign]

Search "flex face" here on signs101...

I'm also doing my first flex face this month, except I'm just a little ahead if you in the process... I removed the old 4x12 face (20' above ground) bought new "Cooley" 20oz fabric, trimmed to match the template from old face, and salvaged and reapplied all clips on the new face...

What I haven't done yet is try to reinstall it, and somehow remove or avoid any wrinkles from irregular tensioning...

I was planning to start a thread today, because I've been trying to reach a signs101 member for days, to pick his brain about the proper installation technique...

I may still post a thread, but will also keep my eye on this thread...

Oh yeah... Do that search... Someone else posted just last week on this...

[John in Cali]

Add at least 6 inches to the diameter of the lightbox. You will need the extra material to pull on when stretching over the retainer system. After installation of the flex face, trim off the excess.

[MikePro]

hardest part, is tightening it. one clip at a time, then its opposite, and repeat. pray to god you do it right the first time, because going back out to re-tighten a face you've installed... just plain sucks, your profit.

[Sign Eagle]

We did a few indoor signs like that and just used 13 oz banner fabric, worked fine. I would assume it woud work outside as well. Tensioning is a pain, but I think there is a tool available that makes it easier.

[phototec]

Search "flex face" here on signs101...

I'm also doing my first flex face this month, except I'm just a little ahead if you in the process... I removed the old 4x12 face (20' above ground) bought new "Cooley" 20oz fabric, trimmed to match the template from old face, and salvaged and reapplied all clips on the new face...

What I haven't done yet is try to reinstall it, and somehow remove or avoid any wrinkles from irregular tensioning...

I was planning to start a thread today, because I've been trying to reach a signs101 member for days, to pick his brain about the proper installation technique...

I may still post a thread, but will also keep my eye on this thread...

Oh yeah... Do that search... Someone else posted just last week on this...


ISign, yes, you are ahead of me, I have found the "Cooley" 20oz fabric, sold by the yard. I will have to call them on Monday to get a cost.

http://www.nepcosignsupply.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=5657&idcategory=1720#details

Yea, we need to find someone who knows about the correct tensioning procedure. I can see that it needs to be done correctly, or it will not been evenly tight.

On the sign I'm working on, the old "Cooley" fabric, is stretched as tight as a drum.

I will open my cabinet up on Monday to see what kind of tensioning system is securing the fabric.

I look forward to reading your thread.

:thankyou:

[iSign]

I won't be doing a thread asking how unless i really screw up bad at 8am tomorrow..

Sticky signs sent me this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPaJyZY__M0) which was real helpful, since I bought the $50 tool, but wasnt' yet sure how it worked until I watched this...

I'll take some pics & maybe post after the fact...

[Jillbeans]

I did a sign like this about 2 years ago (lettered only)
It's for my brother's company, which works on/maintains signs and awnings, etc.
They ordered the flex face in from N Glantz, and they did all the stretching.
I just came in and stuck the translucent vinyl.
This is when I was still running the 4B and I had to fricking piece the big stuff....not fun.
But the sign (8'x12' d/s) turned out nice looking even if their logo is icky.
Love.....Jill

[shakey0818]

I won't be doing a thread asking how unless i really screw up bad at 8am tomorrow..

Sticky signs sent me this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPaJyZY__M0) which was real helpful, since I bought the $50 tool, but wasnt' yet sure how it worked until I watched this...

I'll take some pics & maybe post after the fact...

:goodpost:
Great link Doug thanks.I remember around 10 years part of the Cooley plant here in RI had a fire and i did the restoration work.They gave me all kinds of samples and were very nice people.

[iSign]

done!

http://www.signs101.com/photopost/data/500/medium/flex.jpg

[phototec]

done!

ISIGN, looks great, I can't see and wrinkles :thumb:


Wow, is this weird, you said this was your first flex face sign, which is for a tire store, and my first flex face sign is also for a tire store, "EZ Tire & Lube".


Ok, I hit a snag, now that I have opened the lighted sign cabinet and removed the outer metal frame I can see the flex fabric attached to the inner-frame, and there are NO clips, instead the flex fabric is STAPLED to the stretch frame.

I thought I had it all figured out and would do like ISIGN suggested, remove all the clips and re-use them, and tighten the the clips using the tool.

Now I don't know what to do, how do you stretch the flex fabric and staple it to the frame? Or is there some different type clips that will fit into the groove where the staples are located?

[GAC05]

This might help:
http://www.millikendistribution.com/downloads/ct_manuals/awning_sign_kit_stapling_reference_manual.pdf

wayne k
guam usa

[MikePro]

This might help:
http://www.millikendistribution.com/downloads/ct_manuals/awning_sign_kit_stapling_reference_manual.pdf

wayne k
guam usa

osnap! nice link!

[iSign]

Ok, I hit a snag...

Now I don't know what to do

bummer!!

GAC05 seems to have given some helpful link, so I'll just wish you the best & hope to see another new tire sign being shown off later this week.
Good Luck!

[signcrafters london]

It's just like stretching a canvas. Take all the old staples out. Start on one side and start putting staples back in. After you get past the first side you'll need one person to stretch and hold the material while another staples. Really not that hard.

We used rivets instead of staples, but same principle. We also use sheet metal pliers like these to help hold the flex in place until it is secured.

[phototec]

This might help:
http://www.millikendistribution.com/downloads/ct_manuals/awning_sign_kit_stapling_reference_manual.pdf

wayne k
guam usa

It's just like stretching a canvas. Take all the old staples out. Start on one side and start putting staples back in. After you get past the first side you'll need one person to stretch and hold the material while another staples. Really not that hard.

We used rivets instead of staples, but same principle. We also use sheet metal pliers like these to help hold the flex in place until it is secured.

Wayne, thanks for the link, very informative, not exactly like my frame, which has the staple channel on opposite side of the face, but I see all those special clamps used to hold the flex face material. I have to do some research before I tackle this, may have to get a dozen of these clamps.

signcrafters london, thanks for your help also, I understand how you staple a stretched canvas, however this material has to be stapled down into a deep grove (channel) while you are trying to stretch the material at the same time. If I pull the material with the sheet metal pliers across the top of the channel, not sure I will be able to get the nose of the staple gun to push the stretched material down into the channel (see photos).

:help

[Mosh]

Call a local sign shop!!! All I can tell you!!!

[MikePro]

ingenuity... its what makes sign guys great.
who says you HAVE to staple down into the channel? hell, if I had the sign in front of me and had to find a way to stretch the canvas... i'd just make some 1/2" x 1/8' "clips" out of scrap aluminum and use a pliers/vicegrips to stretch a section as I pop a rivot and repeat on the opposite side of the frame until its done.
(1/2" being pressed on the flat spot, and the 1/8" as a tucking mechanism into the channel.)

hell, i bet you could get away with stretching over the existing frame, securing with double-sided tape and then reinforcing with rivots/washers.
eeezy-peezy:toasting:

[phototec]

ingenuity... its what makes sign guys great.
who says you HAVE to staple down into the channel? hell, if I had the sign in front of me and had to find a way to stretch the canvas... i'd just make some 1/2" x 1/8' "clips" out of scrap aluminum and use a pliers/vicegrips to stretch a section as I pop a rivot and repeat on the opposite side of the frame until its done.
(1/2" being pressed on the flat spot, and the 1/8" as a tucking mechanism into the channel.)

hell, i bet you could get away with stretching over the existing frame, securing with double-sided tape and then reinforcing with rivots/washers.
eeezy-peezy:toasting:

MikePro, I like how you think, I'm still doing a little research, but I may very well do a "MacGyver" on this sign, hell, in Vietnam, we fixed everything with commo wire and duct tape!

:goodpost:

[andy]

Air powered nail guns aren't expensive... Spotnail make a nice narrow head gun which costs around £80.. it'll fit right down into your channel with ease and allow you to machine gun really tight staples right around all four sides of your flex face.

What you need to do is leave your new face oversize so you've got a big handful of fabric to pull on whilst you're stapling. Once you've got the fabric on nice & tight you simply go back with a Stanley knife & cut off the excess. I've done a few stapled flexface signs and this is the method I always used.

Start at the top.. get someone on each end of the fabric (the short vertical sides) and pull tight. Staple right along the top edge so it's on firmly. Pull the bottom down real tight with your helpers pulling on the ends again and start banging in staples. You should be left with a tight face with no wrinkles apart from the two open vertical ends.. these can be pulled into place by one person & stapled at the same time. Pull the material in the middle of the vertical side directly towards you and staple firmly. Then work up from the middle pulling the fabric in a slight diagonal direction... this will help you "work" any remaining wrinkles up into the corner of the flex panel. Repeat the same process for the bottom edge.

It's important that you use a decent air nailer with enough PSI to punch the staples in quickly and with considerable force; a hand stapler won't do the trick, trust me.

[FS-Keith]

I think the other guys have helped you with ideas for installing, my advise is if you didnt already know that is a sign from the latest bmw/VW sign package. So you could always track down who made it and see if you can find the install specs... But that changour is simple enough to do with a little thinking and tools. i would cut some small pieces of alum and sanwichthe fabric between it and the frame and forfet about that channel

[Wes Phifer]

The staple in deal is the quickest way to do it. It does help to have plenty of those clamps though. I bought a Milliken kit and it is super easy and fast.

[Techman]

call your local awning sign shop. They have the tools and the practice to get it right. It has to be tight. And the staples have to be right too.

[larrysignman]

bummer!!

GAC05 seems to have given some helpful link, so I'll just wish you the best & hope to see another new tire sign being shown off later this week.
Good Luck!

we use to use a canvas stretching tool, can get at hobby lobby or micheals

then stretch like a canvas, and apply self tapping screws, the ones for roofing with the rubber washers, use spring clamps initially, then the canvas stretcher to pull as you put on your screws

this is old school, sort of like the staples

the tension systems are great, but require the proper tool(s) & sometimes a whole new frame

[phototec]

I had a real challenge working my first flex face sign, this lighted sign had a 3M PanaFlex face stapled into a channel in the Aluminum frame. The channel groove was about 1/4" wide and 3/8" deep.

I had several challenges, fist being I was not able to locate the 3M PanaFlex sold by the foot, so I opted to use the 20oz Cooley, I purchased 3' of 10'-6" wide material, just enough to do this job.

Next was the challenge was to pre-install the graphics on the Cooley or wait till after the face was installed to allow for better placement and alignment, I opted to go with the second.

I had to figure out how to staple the Cooley down into the channel, thanks to "wayne k's" lead on Signs 101, I downloaded the Milliken Matched Component Staple System, and it showed the use of special clamps. I recognized them as being welding clamps and remembered seeing them at Harbor Freight, I needed about 6 clamps at least to force the Cooley down int the channel before stapling. I purchased the welding claps at HF, and they did the job, however I had to modify the bottom of the clamps because the small convex dimples would mess up the front of the flex face.

Next, I tried all my current 18ga stalpers, had both a Paslode and a Craftsman, neither nose would fit down into the channel, so I purchased a cheapo 18ga stapler at HF, knowing I would have to modify the nose section just for this application. I removed the safety-trip device from the nose and then it would fit down into the channel. I would have to pull up on the safety latch under the trigger each time I fired a staple, it worked.

Without the safety-trip device, I had no way to adjust the depth of the staple, in testing I found the staple was penetrating the Cooley material (bad), so I had too figure out some way to keep the staples from penetrating the Cooley. I had a roll of 1/4" clear vinyl tubing that was just long enough to go around the perimeter of the aluminum frame. I made a few tests, and it worked, the the clear tubing offered just enough resistance and protection, and the staples didn't penetrate the Cooley material.

I noticed that the old 3M PanaFlex material was stretched across the long way first (maybe has more give), then the short sides were fastened. So, that's what I did, first stapling one end stapling the clear tubing in the channel, then on to the other end. I used two flat welding clamps on the Cooley fabric, and used long adjustable clamps from the mid support to pull tension on the fabric. I didn't have any other way to pull tension prior to stapling.

Now that the flex face material is installed onto the aluminum frame, I get to figure out a way to block-up, support under the face so I have a hard surface to install the graphics. At least this way I can control the placement and position of the finished graphics on the sign.

I hope all this can help someone in the future.

Thanks to all here at Signs 101 for your HELP, I could have never got this far without suggestions!!!

:thankyou:

To be continued.

[ionsigns]

Semantics: Lighted sign? Lighted from interior or exterior. Illuminated sign?
Hmmm.

OPINIONS PLEASE: Which of these descriptions is the most accurate and sophisticated?

Interior Lit. Exterior Lit. Illuminated Sign (does not specify lights inside a box with translucent faces!?) Lit sign. Unlit sign.

Exterior illuminated. Interior Illuminated.

IMHO: A sign that is opaque with lights outside is an EXTERIOR LIT sign.
A sign with translucent faces or channel (neon or LED) is Illuminated or Interior lit.

Lighted sign to me is somehow not the most optimum description.

Exterior illuminated. Interior Illuminated. Two ways to be sophisticated and equally descriptive.

[Malkin]

We usually use the terms BACK-LIT, FRONT-LIT, or NON-LIT.

Also, nice going! I'll be referencing this thread the first time I am asked to tackle such a thing. (99% of signs around here seem to be lex faces, even some big 8x12's around town)