What kind of computer do I get!? [Archive]

Bobby H

05-10-2006, 11:52 PM

My knee jerk answer is this: if you're running Windows get a Dell. If you don't like Windows anymore and want to switch get a Mac.

Whatever you buy, just be sure you get a computer that has a dedicated graphics card. You don't have to buy a top end $600 graphics board. But just don't buy a low end PC with an integrated graphics chip on the motherboard. Those PCs are sloooooowwwww. Even the $400 Dells have that problem. Many lack an AGP or PCI-X slot on the motherboard for an add-on graphics card. So basically you're stuck with poor to mediocre performance.

Get 2GB of RAM if you're going to run any new or recent version of Adobe Photoshop. 1GB is not enough.

If you buy a WindowsPC, insist on WinXP Professional. The Home version has some nasty limits on networking and won't run certain high end creative applications, such as Alias|Wavefront Maya (including the free personal learning edition).

The only alternatives to Dell or Apple I would consider is the high end companies like Falcon Northwest, VoodooPC and Alienware if I were wanting a high end gaming PC, or BOXX (another high end builder) if I wanted a top flight CGI or video editing workstation.

I think most computers sold in department stores and office supply stores aren't very good. They have all sorts of junk software bloated into the system and there's often no way to get rid of it (they put it right into the system restore disc -if they even give you a disc). Such computers are difficult or impossible to upgrade. They may be fine for home users, but they're not great for an office environment -especially a creative production environment.

Most of the PCs in our shop are Dells. We do have one new custom built PC. We had to try building our own again just to see how it would go and it was a pain in the butt. We had to send back a defective ASUS motherboard and a defective Western Digital 400GB SATA hard disc. The parts were ordered from NewEgg, but I've seen the same sort of thing happen from others like TigerDirect. It just goes with the territory. Basically, my point with building your own PC is it's not for the faint of heart. You can save money if you know what you're doing. But the effort can burn up a bunch of your time. Those hours of lost time required for setting up the home built machine should be factored in against the money you save from just buying something like a Dell.

When it comes to notebooks I'm even more firmly in Dell's camp. They simply make the best variety of notebooks (and the fastest too -their current top of the line XPS model is currently faster than anything else on the market). Dell's notebooks have higher resolution screens, faster and better hard discs, a wider variety of graphics card choices and they're just more reliable.

skyhigh

05-11-2006, 12:15 AM

I thought all Dell's had the integrated motherboards? Also, I was not very comfortable trying to deal with Dell. I bought my new components through tiger and had it built and loaded in an evening. Like Bobby said.... you can save money if you know what your doing.

Geary

05-11-2006, 12:30 AM

Mac lover here. I'm about to get a new g5. Oh, Lordy.....I'm going to be in heaven!!! I did look at the Quad, but, honestly....I'm not into heavy duty 3D rendering and I'm not a super freak about the new hot rod games so....the dual will do just fine. My g4 is still cranking thinks out fine but, it is 5 years old now and I've got to keep adding external HDs. Plus, the graphics card is so outdated....yada, yada.

~gear

Bobby H

05-11-2006, 12:53 AM

Only two Dell Dimension desktop models lock you into having only integrated graphics chips on the motherboard (the B110 and E310). Certain configurations of the thin, space saving XPS-200 model have integrated graphics in their base configuration, but that can be upgraded.

Currently Dell is offering discounts up to 35% on certain models.

Here's the current rundown on graphics boards offered in Dell desktop systems:

Dimension desktops:

B110
Integrated Graphics Only

E310
Integrated Graphics Only

E510
128MB ATI Radeon X300
256MB ATI Radeon X600

XPS-200 (thin model)
Integrated Graphics or
128MB ATI Radeon X600

XPS-400 (normal looking tower)
128MB ATI Radeon X300
256MB nVidia GeForce 7300LE
256MB nVidia GeForce 6800
512MB ATI Radeon X1900 XTX

XPS-600 (top end gamers model)
256MB nVidia GeForce6800
512MB GeForce 7900GTX
512MB ATI Radeon X1900 XTX
SLI Dual 256MB nVidia GeForce6800
SLI Dual 512MB nVidia GeForce7900GTX (expensive!)
--AGEIA PhysX physics accelerator is another option.

Precision Workstations:

Precision 380 (Pentium 4, Pentium D)
128MB ATI FireGL V3100
128MB nVidia Quadro FX540
128MB nVidia Quadro FX1400
256MB nVidia Quadro FX3450
256MB nVidia Quadro FX3500
512MB nVidia Quadro FX4500 (expensive!)

Precision 470, 670 (Dual Xeon capable)
64MB nVidia Quadro NVS 280
128MB ATI FireGL V3100
128MB nVidia Quadro FX540
128MB nVidia Quadro FX1400
256MB nVidia Quadro FX3450
512MB nVidia Quadro FX4500 (expensive!)

An additional note:
I tried to find the ordering link for that extremely expensive ($9950) XPS-600 system with the custom red flame paint job and FOUR 512MB GeForce7900GTX cards in quad SLI configuration, but it seems to be nowhere to be found. Alienware (now a Dell-owned subsidiary) also offers a quad-SLI solution. You really gotta love gaming to spend that kind of money on it.

Flame

05-11-2006, 01:11 AM

Let's say I had $2000 burning a hole in my pocket, and wanted to order one within a week... what do you think would be the best way to go?

pgettys

05-11-2006, 07:14 AM

i just bought a gateway from bestbuy that has dual 64bit processors 4 gigs of ram 2.8 ghz 360 HD DVDR 128 mg graphics card, i always have 5 or 6 programs running at a time and this is made for multi tasking

i paid 1200 with the memory upgrade

runs like a raped ape

jayhawksigns

05-11-2006, 09:18 AM

If you go the home built route I highly recommend shopping at newegg.com.

I personally avoid Dell like the plague, they are not the company that they used to be, especially with their tech support.

I think you biggest question is whether or not you want to run a dual core computer. Anyone who has one will probably tell you its worth the extra money. And for $2000 you can easily get a descent dual core computer setup along with a new set of dual lcd screens.

2NinerNiner2

05-11-2006, 09:23 AM

I agree with Bobby H - get a professional grade Dell and stay away from the bloated consumer models available at the 'big box' stores; I worked tech support for HP-Compaq and I would NEVER get one of their consumer versions! That being said, my next system is going to be a Core Duo 20" iMac with an additional 20" Apple Cinema display, and running Windows XP Pro using Parallel's virtualization application. Best of both worlds - at the same, unlike Apple's Boot Camp where you have to reboot to switch the OS.

Bobby H

05-11-2006, 11:26 AM

I think you biggest question is whether or not you want to run a dual core computer.

One only needs to go dual core if multiprocessing enabled applications are in use. None of the vector-based drawing applications and none of the sign making software packages are multi-threaded.

Adobe Photoshop is the most commonly available program that takes advantage of multiple processors, including dual core processors. Adobe Premiere & After Effects are SMP capable as well. A good number of 3D modeling/animation programs and some other engineering and sciene/mathmatical programs utilize multiprocessing.

You can still gain some benefit of dual core machines in that WindowsXP will assign one application or process to one core and let another open application use the other core. But you don't get as huge a speed improvement as one application that can harness both cores/CPUs.

On the bright side, with the clock speed ceilings being reached at just under 4GHz (at least for now) all new developments are being propelled in the multiprocessing direction (finally after all these years). So we can expect to see a lot more applications get recompiled to take advantage of multiple cores or CPUs.

Sabre

05-11-2006, 11:41 AM

I have to strongly disagree with the Dell boys. I built and fixed PCs for a living before we decided to try this graphics end of things. Not once in my 8-odd year career was I ever impressed with a Dell. I'm sure they make some decent machines, but they certainly weren't the ones I saw. Dell machines, more-so than the other big box (Gateway/Compaq/Emachine) just assemble their machines from parts from the lowest bidders. A high-end Dell? Yeah, sure, then they're just using parts that are readily available to any PC builder. Nothing in there will be Dell branded. I don’t want to continue my Dell bash as I see several Forum members are fans and I have respect for what they have to say.

My advice? Find a competent system builder in your area. Tell him what you're after. Just about anything off the shelf is going to have crap you don’t want installed on it, or not be a proper configuration for your application. I agree with the Dual-Core boys. I run one both on my design machine here and at home. Preference for AMD’s Athlon X2. More RAM the better, 2Gig is good, 4 is better. If it's within budget see if you can get a Western Digital Raptor drive in there and a secondary archive drive. And/Or if data integrity is foremost and you're not doing semi-regular backups, ask about a RAID array on your archive drive. I'm not exceptionally clear on the role of a high-end 3D graphics processor in a design machine. When I assembled this one I checked every technical forum I could and went with the Matrox Parhelia triple head. People discussed its colour purity being superior and supporting 3 monitors was a nice touch. I'll admit I'm still not aboard the bandwagon for this card... You'd be hard pressed to see any sort of difference. Get them to build your machine with 12cm fans wherever possible especially in the power supply (450 watt+) and wrap it up in a silent chassis.

There were some amazing builders listed in a previous post. Voodoo and Falcon Northwest are my favourites. I’m a little hesitant on Alienware since Dell got their paws in there. I’d hate to recommend one and then the first time you have a problem you get redirected to their India call-center with everyone else. But again, these aren't doing things much different than a knowledgeable builder. You'll just end up with extremely similar hardware in a fancy painted chassis and a binder that includes a certificate of authenticity to give you a warm fuzzy feeling of buying from an overpriced online boutique

Sabre

05-11-2006, 11:50 AM

EndlessOptions

05-11-2006, 12:51 PM

I think this one is awesome!
http://www.deals2buy.com/delldeals.htm#bd

Dell Dimension E510 Pentium D 820 Dual Core, 2.8GHz, 512MB, 80GB, 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability, 19" Flat Panel (LCD), 2yr At-Home Warranty » for $727 at Dell.com

List Price: NA Exp: 05/18/2006 5:59 CST
An entry-level PC with a balance of price and performance for productivity use and basic multimedia functionality.
Click here to go to Dell Home & Home Office
Price shows $1077 before instant discount
Select "Hard drive" to "80GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/ 8MB cache [subtract $50"
Select "CD or DVD Drive" to "Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability [add $50 "
then keep continue and add to cart for $1077
At checkout apply $350off $999 or more dimension coupon code : $29ZG6VL2CF147 (Exp 05/18/06 5:59am CST or 4k uses)
Final Price : $1077 - $350 = $727 + Free Shipping + Tax (Except CO, IN, LA, NM, SD & VM)

Upgrade to 1 gig when you order it and it is cheap.

ground zero graphics

05-11-2006, 12:53 PM

Alien Ware?

mark in tx

05-11-2006, 01:12 PM

www.gotapex.com has a lot of good deals on computers.

jayhawksigns

05-11-2006, 01:14 PM

One only needs to go dual core if multiprocessing enabled applications are in use. None of the vector-based drawing applications and none of the sign making software packages are multi-threaded.

You can still gain some benefit of dual core machines in that WindowsXP will assign one application or process to one core and let another open application use the other core. But you don't get as huge a speed improvement as one application that can harness both cores/CPUs.
Bobby - You are right about most applications our industry uses not taking full advantage of a dual core processor, and you rely on windows balancing the workload of just running windows across the processors. Thus the decision of is the extra $100-$200 for the same speed processor in a dual core package worth it.

Must be coming from a single-core user. Dual-Core CHANGES the way you work. It is noticible in lots of different applications. I can rip a huge graphic, extract a clipart archive and burn a DVD at the same time, maintaining a decent performance level with a dual-core. They honestly do make a difference that is welcome in this neighborhood. Definitely explained why dual core computers should become the norm in the coming year or two. In a business environment like ours where you can be working with Photoshop and your vector program at the same time, just the increased responsiveness of the computer is nice. And if you are dropping $2000 in a computer, you should be able to find that extra $100 to make it a dual core system.

Four years ago I built my first dual processor, dual monitor system. It was at a time when processors made for dual processor systems themselves cost twice as much as a single processor chip, and you needed two of them. Now with the price difference as low as $100 in some cases, I would say its almost stupid not to go dual core. And as for a dual monitor setup, almost all new graphics card you should be using in your comptuer support dual monitors. Its something that anyone working in the graphics industry needs to at least try once.

Bobby H

05-11-2006, 01:27 PM

Alienware makes great stuff; just be prepared to shell out serious dollars for it. Dell just bought up the company, although the original guys who started Alienware will keep designing the systems. They needed the deal with Dell for a larger, more efficient supply chain of parts.

Must be coming from a single-core user.

You assumed incorrectly. My current work computer has a PentiumD 840 CPU. Regardless of the machine I use, I am correct on what I stated about most available software being compiled only for single-CPU use and how Windows will manage applications in multiprocessor environments.

Most newer CPUs have more than enough strength to handle most user tasks. The bigger performance liabilities these days are: not enough RAM, too slow a video card or no dedicated video card and insufficient hard drive speed/capacity. If you're lacking in any of those three areas it won't matter if you have the fastest dual core CPU made. You're still going to be hitting serious lags.

My advice? Find a competent system builder in your area. Tell him what you're after.

You made some absolutely contrary statements about Dell and mom and pop shop system builders.

Dell routinely puts top quality name brand parts in their machines. They don't put junk in there like you claim.

OTOH, most mom and pop shop system builders will try to saddle the user with a compromised system filled with odd ball lowest cost parts. If you know exactly which components you want they'll more than likely give you some song and dance about how you don't need that part and this other odd-ball brand is just as good.

There may be some honest custom PC builders out there, but most users are far better off by avoiding them. One should only go down that direction if they have very good to expert level knowledge on PC components and can force those guys to build what they're supposed to build. But the thing is, if you know enough about that sort of thing you don't need those guys at all and can build your own.

Sabre

05-11-2006, 02:25 PM

You assumed incorrectly. My current work computer has a PentiumD 840 CPU. Regardless of the machine I use, I am correct on what I stated about most available software being compiled only for single-CPU use and how Windows will manage applications in multiprocessor environments.

Most newer CPUs have more than enough strength to handle most user tasks. The bigger performance liabilities these days are: not enough RAM, too slow a video card or no dedicated video card and insufficient hard drive speed/capacity. If you're lacking in any of those three areas it won't matter if you have the fastest dual core CPU made. You're still going to be hitting serious lags.

You made some absolutely contrary statements about Dell and mom and pop shop system builders.

Dell routinely puts top quality name brand parts in their machines. They don't put junk in there like you claim.

OTOH, most mom and pop shop system builders will try to saddle the user with a compromised system filled with odd ball lowest cost parts. If you know exactly which components you want they'll more than likely give you some song and dance about how you don't need that part and this other odd-ball brand is just as good.

There may be some honest custom PC builders out there, but most users are far better off by avoiding them. One should only go down that direction if they have very good to expert level knowledge on PC components and can force those guys to build what they're supposed to build. But the thing is, if you know enough about that sort of thing you don't need those guys at all and can build your own.

Software no longer has to be written for SMP, this is handled at a hardware level on the newer northbridge chipsets. Therefore, Dual-Core will in fact make a difference on any system in multitasking environment. This difference is probably not as noticeable on your Intel chip with its substandard memory controller configuration. If you're going Dual-Core, AMD is your only realistic option.

When I say competent system builder, I mean competent system builder. It's up to you to find one, and they're out there. A mom and pop place might have one, a best buy might have one. Neither are guaranteed to have one, that's for sure. One of the most knowledgeable people I talked to last time I was on holidays was stuck in a Visions Electronics store being completely wasted.

As a technician, I can tell you Dell most certainly does put crap in some of their machines. Not all, but I haven't seen one that impressed me. You would have a hard time convincing me parts from manufacturers like FoxConn and samsung are the highest quality available. Not to mention the fact that their so heavily in bed with Intel they're completely missing the boat on the dual-core performance. A high quality computer is made of high quality parts; it's not a single brand. Dell makes computers for cheaper than everybody else and there are sacrifices there whether or not you like it.

I'm not sure why you would want to avoid an "honest custom PC builder". It seems to me that they would be the best bet. They will take your needs/wants/desires and wrap it up in your new computer. I have seen Dell make some horrible mistakes on spec'ing a user’s new computer on FAR too many occasions to consider them a possibility.

If needed, I would be more than willing to spec a machine for whoever originated this thread. I would be comfortable in taking any criticism from the forum and in the end he could take it wherever he’s confident for the build.

ground zero graphics

05-11-2006, 02:31 PM

You can always buy a barebone package like I did.

ground zero graphics

05-11-2006, 02:32 PM

:cool1: Let's say I had $2000 burning a hole in my pocket, and wanted to order one within a week... what do you think would be the best way to go?

Alien Ware

Bobby H

05-11-2006, 02:43 PM

Software no longer has to be written for SMP, this is handled at a hardware level on the newer northbridge chipsets.

Any application intended to utilize more than one CPU must be written to perform in that manner. This isn't any different from other software programming issues like the application being written in 16-bit, 32-bit or 64-bit code. A motherboard chipset is not going to do anything to recompile that code -and even if it can manage to do anything at all it would be performing a step of EMULATION which by its own nature robs performance.

As to the other comments, I sense a strong anti-Dell anti-Intel axe grinding away. Almost every PC we have in our shop is a Dell system and we have had very few problems. We have seen a lot more problems with kit built computers bought from local indie PC building shops.

BTW, when I buy a Dell system, I'll at least get a licensed WinXP operating system disc. Most kit builders install the same serial number version of Windows on many machines and keep the CD themselves. That way you can't restore the system on your own if the hard drive toasts itself.

At least with a Dell system, I know what I'm getting under the hood. Sure, it may be Samsung RAM in there. None of the kit builder guys are going to install anything better in there unless you specifically ask for it. They'll use something just as cheap or even a lot cheaper and far worse in quality.

I'm not sure why you would want to avoid an "honest custom PC builder". It seems to me that they would be the best bet.

Because there are very few "honest" ones out there. Simple as that.

I'm sure not going to just trust some guy I don't know. Any average computer customer would be best off steering far clear of such builders unless they know one really well and also know quite a bit about computers themselves.

It's similar to the problem people have when they want to build their own house. If they want the job done right, they have to do a lot of homework to understand the process and then be out there on site to watchdog the crud out of the builder and his workers. If they just assume the contractors are going to do the job right they will get shafted. The same is every bit as true when it comes to custom built PCs.

Flame

05-11-2006, 03:03 PM

Software no longer has to be written for SMP, this is handled at a hardware level on the newer northbridge chipsets. Therefore, Dual-Core will in fact make a difference on any system in multitasking environment. This difference is probably not as noticeable on your Intel chip with its substandard memory controller configuration. If you're going Dual-Core, AMD is your only realistic option.

When I say competent system builder, I mean competent system builder. It's up to you to find one, and they're out there. A mom and pop place might have one, a best buy might have one. Neither are guaranteed to have one, that's for sure. One of the most knowledgeable people I talked to last time I was on holidays was stuck in a Visions Electronics store being completely wasted.

As a technician, I can tell you Dell most certainly does put crap in some of their machines. Not all, but I haven't seen one that impressed me. You would have a hard time convincing me parts from manufacturers like FoxConn and samsung are the highest quality available. Not to mention the fact that their so heavily in bed with Intel they're completely missing the boat on the dual-core performance. A high quality computer is made of high quality parts; it's not a single brand. Dell makes computers for cheaper than everybody else and there are sacrifices there whether or not you like it.

I'm not sure why you would want to avoid an "honest custom PC builder". It seems to me that they would be the best bet. They will take your needs/wants/desires and wrap it up in your new computer. I have seen Dell make some horrible mistakes on spec'ing a user’s new computer on FAR too many occasions to consider them a possibility.

If needed, I would be more than willing to spec a machine for whoever originated this thread. I would be comfortable in taking any criticism from the forum and in the end he could take it wherever he’s confident for the build.

Okay, I started this thread. Sorry guys... what a mess. lol.

Well, I am not an expert on computers, I've never torn one apart, I just know that I need a heckuva better one. Mine's too slow, can't hold much, and is really frustrating me. I would like atleast 2GB of RAM, and atleast 200-300 GB of hard drive. I do a lot of digital printing, and even medium files are freezing up my computer right now. I don't want to spend over $2000, but I need something that can handle large files being printed, and let me multi task and work in other programs at the same time. Not to mention SOME kind of warranty! Any suggestions?

Techman

05-11-2006, 03:14 PM

Most kit builders install the same serial number version of Windows on many machines and keep the CD themselves

I am afraid you do not know what your talking about. The Windows activation and the WGA prevents this from happening. Period.
And then, any builder worth his salt knows about certain microsoft bundle packages, subscriptions and incentives that make such old tricks not worth the effort.

Sabre

05-11-2006, 03:15 PM

Any application intended to utilize more than one CPU must be written to perform in that manner. This isn't any different from other software programming issues like the application being written in 16-bit, 32-bit or 64-bit code. A motherboard chipset is not going to do anything to recompile that code -and even if it can manage to do anything at all it would be performing a step of EMULATION which by its own nature robs performance.
Correct, any single application. Open up your task manager and count how many more applications you are running than explorer. Dual-Cores are not what they used to be. Any multi-tasking environment will take great advantage of a dual-core. I'm not sure why you arguing this point.

As to the other comments, I sense a strong anti-Dell anti-Intel axe grinding away. Almost every PC we have in our shop is a Dell system and we have had very few problems. We have seen a lot more problems with kit built computers bought from local indie PC building shops.
I apologize if I simply sound stubborn with my statements. My skill is based on experience and facts.

Experience - Never seen a Dell I like. We get more Dell than any other system for repair. Dell repairs are generally troublesome, although they have come a long way from their proprietary components.
Fact - AMD outperforms Intel on any Dual-Core benchmarks for a fraction on the price. Higher performance, lower price? As a consumer why is this even a decision?

BTW, when I buy a Dell system, I'll at least get a licensed WinXP operating system disc. Most kit builders install the same serial number version of Windows on many machines and keep the CD themselves. That way you can't restore the system on your own if the hard drive toasts itself.

I sense a strong anti-custom builder theme going on here. I'm not sure how things are handled down that way, but we obviously supply the windows disc with any system we sell. As would any reputable builder.

At least with a Dell system, I know what I'm getting under the hood. Sure, it may be Samsung RAM in there. None of the kit builder guys are going to install anything better in there unless you specifically ask for it. They'll use something just as cheap or even a lot cheaper and far worse in quality.

Which may be the difference between Joe-Schmoe with his boring 9-5 job of building computers for people and an enthusiast custom-builder who's using Crucial or OCZ

I don’t want to come across as attacking you Bobby, but I very much disagree with some of your statements from a custom-builder and enthusiast point of view. You make it sound like anything with a Dell logo on it will be a good computer which is very much untrue. As for the dual-core issue, I'm extremely confident in my statements which research will support. AMD as opposed to Intel? I invite anyone whose read this far into the thread to open up Google and punch in "Dual core AMD Vs Intel" and open up any of the dozens of links and look for the conclusion to their tests. They're all the same results and they all show AMD on top by a wide margin.

This guy is looking for the best solution to his computer needs, not a misdirection into what is good enough for someone else.

Flame

05-11-2006, 03:32 PM

Am I missing something, or is this one a good deal?

Athlon 64 3200 2GB DVDRW 250GStore ID: sys-amd-023$644
6 Channel Audio
USB 2.0 ports:6
Video:OnBoard ATI Xpress 200 128M(Shared)
LAN:10/100
CPU:Athlon 64 3200 939 pin
Memory:2GB(2x1GB) DDR PC3200 Dual Channel
Hard Drive:250G SATA II
DVDRW:16X +-RW Dual Layer
Case:Mid Tower 350W Power Supply with Air Guide for CPU
Operating System:Not inlcuded(add $92 for XP Home/$147 for XP Pro)
Floppy Drive:Not included(add $12 for 1.44MB FD)
Modem:Not included(Please add $12 for 56K Fax/Modem)
Card Reader:Not Included(add $20 for 16:1 card reader)
Warranty:1 Year Parts & Labor
NOTE:You can change any of CPU/Memory/Hard Drive/CD-DVD for the difference of the price of the item(s) only !!

Sabre

05-11-2006, 03:42 PM

Am I missing something, or is this one a good deal?
Athlon 64 3200 2GB DVDRW 250GStore ID: sys-amd-023$644

Pretty light-duty for my liking. If you have a $2000 budget, you'll be much happier with your machine if you go with something better than this one.

Techman

05-11-2006, 03:50 PM

From the list above..

Better? as in more memory?
That is all I see that is lacking.
This chip is a good CPU.
The video is adequate.
Add in a second hard drive
I do not see a printer port
I do not see a serial port.
I would look at it a second time If I needed a machine.

Cadmn

05-11-2006, 10:23 PM

I've heard good things about Tiger Direct. Any idea on how much your sons system cost him?Yea wholesale Just parts He spent $1800 but then his video was 3 & he has 2 -21" moniters but without my wholesale it would have bee about $3 grand easy.the one above is a decent computer if you wanted you could upgrade to a 4800 cpu but at this time I think that the fastest made is 4800 I would not get ATI video but Nvidea is only a couple dollars more.

mfarney

05-12-2006, 01:38 AM

I have built many machines over the years. We have 3 RIP Machines that run Onyx Production House, two are Dual Opteron's with 4 gigs of RAM and the newest is Dual Dual-Core Opteron's with 4 gigs of RAM. The single cores are 5 times faster than our old RIP machine which was Dual Xeon 2.0ghz.

Also Stay away from Tiger Direct check the reseller ratings on them very bad news.

Go with NewEgg or ZipZoomFly.

Ruddbow

05-12-2006, 10:16 AM

I am at a point where this is in my near future. I appreciate all the input and would love to hear some additional info. Sounds like we have some very knowledgable tech heads on here.

so again, what is the "best choice" out there for a signmaker.

I have worked 100% in Mac for over 10 years. I do own PC's but still drive my plotter with an imac.

Thanks for letting me highjack.

:U Rock:

Rhinoz

05-12-2006, 10:35 AM

As an ex-computer builder for many years, this is my new setup:

COMPUCASE 6A SERIES COMPUTER CASE
AMD ATHLON 64 X2 4200+ DUAL CORE
GIGABYTE K8NXP-SLI A64 939
PROMISE FASTTRAK TX2300 RAID CARD
2 x 250 GIG 16mb WESTERN DIGITAL DRIVES
2 x 400 GIG 16mb WESTERN DIGITAL DRIVES
3 GIG RAM PC3500
LITE-ON 16X DUAL LAYER CD/DVD BURNER
GIGABYTE GV-NX66256DP2 256MB VIDEO CARD
3 x STARTECH DRW110SA REMOVABLE HDD TRAYS
2 x DCL 19" FLAT PANEL LCD MONITORS (700:1 Contrast)
WINDOWS XP PRO (32bit)

Total cost is under $3k
Runs like a rocket on rails!

Reason for 4 Hard drives is very simple:

1st Hard drive is for installing main programs
2nd Hard drive is for clipart/vectors etc
3rd & 4th Hard Drives are mirrored so in the event of a hard drive failure, I can recover all the data from one and still continue to work. These drives are for customer records, image info, photo's of the work performed for them.

2nd, 3rd and 4th Hard drives are removable via front trays so that I can take them off premises at night.

This tower's data is also backed up to a 2nd basic tower that contains 2 x 400 gig drives, again mirrored. (cost for this one, under $600)

Hope this helps anyone who is looking for a computer setup. I'm not saying its for everyone, just an example.:cool:

Flame

05-12-2006, 11:11 AM

A build it yourself version. Sorry if I seem to shop around for deals too much, but hey....

Systemax Venture HU2 B920I Intel Pentium D Build-to-Order Intel 945GNT Destop PC

Intel D945G Chipset ATX Case w/ 350 Watt PS
Intel Pentium D Processor 940 3.2GHz Dual Core
2GB DDR2 PC4200 Non-ECC Memory (1GB x 2)
Serial ATA (SATA) Hard Drive 300GB (7200 RPM)
160GB Serial ATA 7200RPM Hard Drive
52x32x52 CDRW Drive
52x32x52/16x CDRW/DVD Combo Drive
9-in-1 Card Reader Black
56K V.92 PCI Modem
Integrated Gigabit Network Adapter
ATI X300 128MB Graphics Card w/TV-Out PCI Express
1 Year Parts & Labor Warranty w/ 1 Year Onsite

Grand total of just under $1600. Built it on Tiger Direct. I'm not the expert here though, so I look forward to everyones critique.

PMG

05-12-2006, 11:34 AM

I got a HP PC here is the specs.......... got it for $800 with a flat screen monitor

Motherboard description

Motherboard manufacturer's name: ASUS P5LP-LE
HP/Compaq name: Emery-UL8ECPU/Processor

Socket: 775
Supports the following processors:
Pentium D 800 series (Smithfield)
Pentium 4 600 series (Prescott)
Pentium 4 HT (Prescott)
System bus

533 MHz, 800 MHz, 1066 MHzChipset

Northbridge: Intel 945P
Southbridge: Intel ICH7DHBIOS features

4 Mb FWH EEPROM
HP BIOS with enhanced ACPI, DMI, Green, and PnP Features PlusForm factor

Micro-ATX: 9.6 in X 9.6 inMemory

Four 240-pin DDR2 DIMM sockets
Supports PC2 3200 (400 MHz), PC 4200 (533 MHz) and PC2 5300 (667 MHz) DDR2 DIMMs
Maximum HP/Compaq approved memory is 4 GB*NOTE: *Actual available memory may be less
Expansion slots

Three PCI
One PCI Express x16 graphicsVideo graphics

External onlySerial ATA

4 SATA connectors
Each connector supports 1 serial ATA-150 disk driveOnboard audio or audio card Integrated Intel High Definition (TM) audio (Azalia)

Realtek ALC 882 chipset
Supports up to 8 audio channels
Dolby Pro Logic IIx compatibleOnboard LAN

Intel 82562GT
10/100 Mbps Fast EthernetBack panel I/0

One PS/2 keyboard port (purple)
One PS/2 mouse port (green)
One Parallel
One IEEE 1394a
One RJ-45 networking port
Four USB 2.0
One coaxial SPDIF in
One coaxial SPDIF out
Audio ports:
line in (light blue)
line out (lime)
microphone (pink)
side speaker out (gray)
rear speaker out (black)
center/subwoofer (yellow orange)
Internal connectors

One floppy connector
One IDE connector
One 24-pin ATX power connector
One 4-pin ATX 12 V power connector
Four serial ATA connectors
One IEEE 1394a connector
Two USB 2.0 connectors
One CPU fan connector
One PC (chassis) fan connector
Two internal audio connectors
One front headphone connector
One PC panel connectorProduct number
ER904AA

Introduction date
22-Feb-2006

Country/region sold in:

US
CanadaHardware
Base processor
PentiumD 820 (S) DC 2.8 GHz

800MHz front side bus
Socket 775Chipset
Intel 945P

Motherboard

Manufacturer: Asus
Motherboard Name: P5LP-LE
HP/Compaq motherboard name: Emery-UL8EMemory
Component Attributes Memory Installed2 GB (2 x 1 GB)Maximum allowed4 GB* (4 x 1 GB)

*Actual available memory may be lessSpeed supportedPC2-4200 MB/secType240 pin, DDR2 SDRAMDIMM slotsFourOpen DIMM slotsTwo

Hard drive

250 GB SATA
7200 rpm16X DVD(+/-)R/RW (+/-)R DL LightScribe drive

Must use Double-Layer media discs in order to take advantage of the DL technology
Must use LightScribe-enabled media discs and supporting software in order to take advantage of the LightScribe technologyPort type Quantity DVD-R DL Write Once4XDVD+R DL Write Once2.4XDVD+R Write Once16XDVD+RW Rewritable4XDVD-R Write Once8XDVD-RW Rewritable4XDVD ROM Read16XCD-R Write Once40XCD-RW Rewritable24XCD-ROM Read40X

Modem
56K bps data/fax modem

Video Graphics
GeForce 7300LE

64 MB DDR memory
I/O Ports: VGA, Composite, S-VideoSound/Audio
Integrated High Definition audio

Realtek ALC 882 chipset
Supports up to 8 audio channels
Dolby Pro Logic II compatibleNetwork (LAN)
Integrated 10/100 Base-T networking interface

Memory card reader

USB interface
Supports the following cards:
Compact Flash I
Compact Flash II
SmartMedia
Memory Stick
Memory Stick Pro
MultiMediaCard
Secure Digital (SD)
Micro Drive
XD Picture Card (xd = extreme digital)
External I/O ports
I/O ports on the front panel

Port type Quantity 9-in-1 (4 slot) + 1 USBOne1394OneUSBTwoHeadphoneOneLine-inOneMicrophoneOne
I/O ports on the back panel

Port type Quantity PS2 (keyboard, mouse)Two (one each)ParallelOne USBFour 1394One LANOne Audio (side speaker out, rear speaker out, center speaker out, line-in, line-out, microphone)One each

Expansion slots (available)
Slot type Quantity PCIThree (Two available)PCI Express x16One (None available)DIMM SlotsFour (Two available)

Drive bays (available)
Bay type Quantity 5.25" externalTwo (One available)3.5" externalTwo (One available)3.5" internalOne (None available)

Keyboard and mouse

HP multimedia keyboard
Quebec Keyboard Kit (French Canada only)
HP PS/2 scroller mouse

Sabre

05-12-2006, 11:56 AM

If you came to me, here's what I'd recommend. It's similar to what I'm currently running for my design rig.

Antec Sonata II Chassis w/ Truepower 2.0 450Watt PSU
Asus A8N5x Motherboard
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 4200
Kingston HyperX 2G Kit RAM
Western Digital Raptor 10krpm 150Gig
Dual Western Digital 320G in RAID 1 array
Matrox Millennium G550 Graphics adapter
Plextor PX-750 DVDRW
1x 120mm 1x90mm Vantec Stealth fans for chassis cooling
Windows XP Professional

All this can be had for around $2100 Canadian which puts it in the right neighborhood for the budget. The RAID array is wonderful for data integrity to ensure it wont destroy your business should a drive fail down the road but it's slower for file access. The WD Raptor will be handling the majority of data transactions with windows and swap files and should eliminate any lag you may have had by running with just the RAID Archive. The Matrox card may be up for debate as they are not a major player in the fight for supreme graphic performance. However, they are a leading choice for graphic professionals. This particular card has Dual-DVI output and is passively cooled for zero additional noise. My feelings wont be hurt if someone needs to convince you that you gotta have a modern 3D graphics chipset capable of 40 frames per second in FEAR or Oblivion, but I do think it's unnecessary.

Any questions or comments are welcome :)

Bobby H

05-12-2006, 02:15 PM

I would like atleast 2GB of RAM, and atleast 200-300 GB of hard drive. I do a lot of digital printing, and even medium files are freezing up my computer right now. I don't want to spend over $2000, but I need something that can handle large files being printed, and let me multi task and work in other programs at the same time. Not to mention SOME kind of warranty! Any suggestions?

You can get a very powerful system for under $2000. Just be sure to get at least 2GB of RAM installed, perhaps a 200GB or larger hard disc, a second physical hard drive for Photoshop scratch disc use and a dedicated graphics card of some decent type (Matrox is best for 2D graphics acceleration). I think you can manage that easiliy even for under $1500 whether you build your own or buy a Dell, Gateway or whatever.

I am afraid you do not know what your talking about. The Windows activation and the WGA prevents this from happening. Period.

There are hacks around the activation and authentication setup in WindowsXP, just as there are hacks around the activation features of MS Office and Adobe's applications. Russian software pirates have made a big business of that. And if the local guy can't manage using a hacked copy of WindowsXP (sometimes jokingly called "Fisher Price Windows"), he'll give you the song and dance about how WindowsXP sucks -that way he can install Windows2000 on your machine and definitely not have to give you a copy of the disc! We had exactly that sort of thing happen with the one AMD based PC we have in our shop. Occaisions came up that required with Windows2000 CD and the system builder kept giving us a song and dance about how we would give us a copy in a few days. That never happened. So we wiped the hard drive and installed a legal disc of WinXP ProSP2 instead.

I sense a strong anti-custom builder theme going on here. I'm not sure how things are handled down that way, but we obviously supply the windows disc with any system we sell. As would any reputable builder.

That's the problem, "reputable" builders aren't everywhere. Maybe folks are a lot more honest in Northern BC, but down in my region I must insist on warning buyers to beware. Most computer customers don't have lots of knowledge about what kind of hardware is going to suit their needs and many get taken advantage of over their lack of knowledge. From their perspective, it is a lot easier for them to buy a WindowsPC from a huge company like Dell -or even go one step better and just by a Apple PowerMac.

I apologize if I simply sound stubborn with my statements. My skill is based on experience and facts.

So basically, you're saying I'm lying and all of the problems our shop has had in the past with kit-built PCs from local shops never happened? I find it amazing that you could have somehow been monitoring our business for the last 15 years to see exactly what we have been doing with our computer purchases. Amazing!

Any multi-tasking environment will take great advantage of a dual-core. I'm not sure why you arguing this point.

Because I correctly stated the situation with software and multiple processors the first time I posted about it in this thread. I wrote: You can still gain some benefit of dual core machines in that WindowsXP will assign one application or process to one core and let another open application use the other core. But you don't get as huge a speed improvement as one application that can harness both cores/CPUs.

You make it sound like anything with a Dell logo on it will be a good computer which is very much untrue.

You're doing the same thing from the custom builder's point of view. You're making sound like they can do no wrong when I have clearly seen specific builders do wrong myself.

I agree Dell's machines aren't all perfect. But they're certainly not garbage at all either. We recently away a couple old Dell systems we purchased in 1999. They still worked fine. I believe one of the things that has helped us is we carefully picked out what we wanted in each machine instead of just buying whatever was the cheapest model.

AMD versus Intel? Sure, I'd buy an AMD-based system if I were configuring a gaming machine. But Adobe's PC software is specifically geared toward Intel processors. There has been activation issues lately with the CS2 and Production Studio suites installed on AMD based machines. For gaming AMD is great; for work purposes I prefer to go with Intel.

Checkers

05-12-2006, 02:43 PM

Here's a link to what I recommend...
http://www.letterhead.com/ubb-cgi/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/33108.html
If you can afford more, you should spend the money.

Here's a link to what I would NOT recommend...
www.hp.com
When we have several days to kill and $1000+ worth of software to flush down the toilet, I can tell you that story :(

The strongest part of any system is it's weakest link. Dell builds their systems with parts that work well together, plus they will support it 24/7/365 if something goes wrong. Try to get that from your local builder or repair shop.

I also suggest a good service contract. These machines are designed to make you money, if they aren't working, you're loosing money. A service contract will insure that you're up and running as soon as possible with a minimal amount of time lost.

Checkers

Sabre

05-12-2006, 03:21 PM

So basically, you're saying I'm lying and all of the problems our shop has had in the past with kit-built PCs from local shops never happened? I find it amazing that you could have somehow been monitoring our business for the last 15 years to see exactly what we have been doing with our computer purchases. Amazing!
That's funny. I can't help but think that your experiences lead me to believe you bought your kit built machines from a company called "Jim-Bobs Computer Warehouse" ran out of his parents basement. A company delivering the problems you had surely couldn't still remain in business?

AMD versus Intel? Sure, I'd buy an AMD-based system if I were configuring a gaming machine. But Adobe's PC software is specifically geared toward Intel processors.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-10442_7-6389077-5.html
Adobe and Intel may have to spend a little more time together before they can claim that Adobe software runs better on an Intel. I however cannot comment on the activation issues. I haven't experienced any and I dont know of any. I'm sure I could track down a forum of people complaining about it, though. But on the other hand, I could track down a forum of people complaining about any subject.

It's also at this point that I'd like to point out that the #3 finisher in that test, the AMD Athlon X2 4400 costs just about exactly half the price of the #4 finisher, the flagship Pentium 840 Extreme Edition. Care to justify that one? $1000 for a CPU is too much.

Checkers, dont get too pumped up about the 24/7 tech support. Rarely are the technicians able to help with your problem and generally advise to restore your OS to it's original state. If you are an owner of a machine that has 24/7 support that you are happy with, I would like to know what brand. We also do alot of service contract work here for several companies and they dont get any additional service over our regular customers, that's for sure.

Bobby H

05-13-2006, 02:44 AM

That's funny. I can't help but think that your experiences lead me to believe you bought your kit built machines from a company called "Jim-Bobs Computer Warehouse" ran out of his parents basement.
Old, tired stereotype. And borderline offensive no less. The business we used had a nice office, several well dressed folks in their staff and even electricity and something better than dirt floors you may think us hillbillies are still using. Also anyone would be ridiculously stupid to assume that dishonest people only live in the south. Anyone with that view deserves to be robbed.

As for the builder, the first one we dealt with did indeed go out of business. He was operating as a Computerland franchise for awhile until that got pulled. And then things went even further downhill for him. The most recent builder we dealt with (one who would not provide a legit Win2000 install CD) is still in business. Although there are rumors about the FBI investigating him. Both operated out of nice looking offices and had enough nice eye candy on display to fool most average customers into thinking they had a professional reputation.

It's also at this point that I'd like to point out that the #3 finisher in that test, the AMD Athlon X2 4400 costs just about exactly half the price of the #4 finisher, the flagship Pentium 840 Extreme Edition. Care to justify that one? $1000 for a CPU is too much.
Unless you need a top of the line gaming PC that runs $7000, it makes no sense to buy a top of the line CPU, whether it's an overpriced Intel Pentium Extreme Edition CPU or a still overpriced AMD Althon FX-60 chip.

Money is better spent dropping a few steps on CPU speed and using the cost savings to buy more RAM, a better video card or even specialized capture cards required to deal with things like HD-quality video. An AJA Xena|HS card is necessary to use with Premiere Pro 2 for capturing 720p, 1080i and HDV video. If you're going with Avid's stuff, you need their Mojo device. Either way, you're needing $1500 to $2000 for specialized hardware functions the CPU will not provide for you.

I will also say most users have no need for RAID either and are best off avoiding it -at least in terms of the SATA version, which does suck. The hard drive connectors have an awful design and depending on the configuration if one drive toasts itself, the data on all drives in the RAID setup gets toasted as well. If someone really needs RAID (for something like HD video editing or something else highly disc intensive like that) they're better off buying a pricey U320 SCSI RAID controller and an external setup with hot swap capable drives.

I have two physical SATA drives in my computer, but thankfully not in RAID configuration. One is a straight boot disc and the other is used for Photoshop/After Effects/Premiere scratch disc work.

Techman

05-13-2006, 11:48 AM

here are hacks around the activation and authentication setup in WindowsXP, just as there are hacks around the activation features of MS Office and Adobe's applications.

Here we go with the HACKED versions. More nonsence. The first time that ripped off customer goes to get an XP update there goes his HACKED version. The work arounds simply do not last in the XP world. Yes I know about the hacked DLL's. M$ fixed that hack long ago. In fact, M$ fixes all the hacks as soon as they come out.

builder kept giving us a song and dance

The old urban legend about scamming a buyer into getting copied win 2K is so old that its got worms crawling thru it. I am shocked that someone as inteligent as you would let that happen.

Flame

05-13-2006, 11:58 AM

Dude's..... we're getting off of the subject here. I'm sure everyone on here is intelligent, so quit HARPING ON EACH OTHER! IMO there are no absolutes in the computing world, so why try to push yours?

Bobby H

05-13-2006, 02:05 PM

Here we go with the HACKED versions. More nonsence. The first time that ripped off customer goes to get an XP update there goes his HACKED version.
I take it you deny hacked copies of WinXP exist and are being sold?

The old urban legend about scamming a buyer into getting copied win 2K is so old that its got worms crawling thru it. I am shocked that someone as inteligent as you would let that happen.
Urban legend? Don't imply I'm lying. This situation really happened.

Further, I was not the person who ordered the POS machine. One of our sales guys made the deal with that shop and didn't "CYA" much less involve anyone else who knew computers into the loop. Thankfully, the machine was not a design workstation. The builder put Win2K on the machine and referred to WinXP as "Fisher Price Windows" (kinda funny joke really).

Dude's..... we're getting off of the subject here. I'm sure everyone on here is intelligent, so quit HARPING ON EACH OTHER!
Considering the original questions (how powerful a machine do I need) were answered, there probably isn't much point for this thread to continue. The brand name PCs versus custom builder PCs thing is obviously another never-ending controversy along the lines of Mac vs. PC, Intel vs. AMD, Linux vs. the rest of the world, etc.

Rhinoz

05-13-2006, 02:16 PM

Only thing I can truly recommend is start off with semi basic system, then upgrade as you need to.

I agree with Bobby H, consider the original question, don't turn the thread into a "shoot down" session.

Go with your gut instinct.:thumb:

cinemasign.grafix

05-13-2006, 08:37 PM

I've been on mac from day one, had no experience on pc / windows. But i wanted to add another unit for mostly rip. Since the only rip that supports mac is flexi , I was sick of waiting a year for the mac upgrades after the pc
release. Since i was going to need good tech support , i went with a dell vs have one built. If you are fairly windows and computer experienced , you
can probably build a system and get more for your money. I got a dell
3Ghz - Dual core - Xp pro
Sata 160g 7200 HD
2 GB DDR2 667 Ram
Dvd/Cd + Burn
256 Graphics card
20" Hi res monitor
Wireless mouse & keyboard
Anti virus software etc.
Out the door - $1700.00
I've since added another SATA 160GB HD 7200 RAID 1
2 more GB DDR2 667 RAM - $300.00
For me dell has been great. There tech support is fantastic.
Just my experience on my move to pc. Maybe when i have more experience on the pc side i'd build the next one.

Sabre

05-15-2006, 11:35 AM

I just wrote a big long reply quoting Bobby a whole bunch of times and pulling web urls for reference and making sure anyone who cared to read had all the information possible. Then I deleted it. Bobby's right on the point of dropping it and I'm sure each time we go back and forth attacking each others statements we just look more and more like a couple of jackasses.

As people can see, 2 very knowledgeable people have vastly different opinions on what a computer should be and where they should buy it. At this point we're not really helping, we're confusing. There's enough information in this thread to get going on a computer purchase and I offer assistance to anyone who asks me directly in this thread or via PM.

I'll try to contain myself from now on :)

Flame

05-15-2006, 11:37 AM

Liquid GraphX

05-17-2006, 11:03 PM

Just built this one from Newegg.com there the best in world!!

Asus A8N 32 SLI Deluxe
AMD Athalon 4800 dual core
4 gigs Mushkin PC 533 Ram
Twin 150 WD Raptors 10,000RPM
BFG Tech Nvidia 7900 GTX 512mb
Plextor PX-755SA DVD/CD Burner
All Slammed in a Thermaltake Tai-Chi case with Liquid Cooling!

Stay away from Dell and Best Buy! Go find a local PC guy in your area and have him build you a system! Keep your dollars local who knows maybe you could make him a sign for trade!!?

Geary

05-17-2006, 11:35 PM

Get a Mac. :thumb:

2NinerNiner2

05-18-2006, 12:30 AM

I'm with ya on that one, Geary :) I'm an old Mac-a-holic from Day One (1985 - Mac 512 with external 400K floppy! ). I get my "fix" these days on my 14" G4 iBook but the new Core Duo 20" iMac is what I want next! :) ...oh yeah, and I'll need a copy of WinXP to put on it too!! :) :)

Geary

05-18-2006, 02:29 AM

Oh, no 2Niner....let's not get started now......:tongue: oh, what the hell.....let's. I had the exact same 512....did lots of "drawing" with MacDraw and MacPaint. However, I have seriously been with Mr. Job's machines since Illustrator88. Remember during that time when Steve Jobs had tried to develop that "NeXT" cube thing he got from the Hewlett Packard folks (I think that's right)? And when he asked Microsoft to develop software for it....Bill Gates was quoted, "Develop it, no, but I'll **** on it!" Seems like a hundred years ago. :rolleyes:

~gear

iSign

05-18-2006, 05:23 AM

yep...I started out with macdraw & illustrator 88 too. I was just an employee & don't recall the model numbers, but when I got my first mac, I think it was an SE.

I got a 20" G5 Imac from Costco a while back for $1500 with a 3 year Apple Care support plan, but I set it up next to one of my Sony Vaio machines & honestly, I just don't fall for the hype anymore. It's an excellent machine, but is it "better" ? Not really for me. My computers are all capable of so much more then I demand from them, it seems silly to claim superiority of one over the other when you only scratch the surface of what either is capable of. I took it back for a refund last wekend.

Geary

05-18-2006, 08:37 AM

Hey Doug,

I hear ya. And to be honest, I like the newer Windows machines with XP just fine. It's just that in the past....I couldn't get nearly as much done in the day due to all the crashes and freezes on the Win 95, 98, 2000, NT (worst one of all) and ME. Yikes!

My Macs just have never had the problems, including those dreaded virus attacks, that we all have experienced. I worked in two shops not too long ago where they lost the ENTIRE jobs files in the main server due to the "Melissa" and "I Love You" worms that crawled in through Outlook. One company figured they lost about $70,000 in the wake. What a nightmare that was! Calling up dozens of clients every day for a couple of months trying to get them to send files back to us that we had done for them over the years, not getting anywhere on some because the "cut files" were different than the "proposal files" sometimes, and the worst of all.....the customers who refused to send us anything because they thought we were the culprits of giving THEM the same viruses, etc, etc., Makes me a bit ill just thinking about it.....sort of like remembering the '89 quake while living in San Francisco at the time. :rolleyes:

Glad things are different now! :thumb:

~gear