Looking into a possible CNC

[choucove]

Our shop has been pondering looking at getting some kind of a CNC machine for fabrications. Really, though, we don't even know where to begin! What options are available out there, and what is the price range? Is there certain software we need to be looking at above others, or additional hardware needed in addition to the CNC?

[SignManiac]

There should be a ton of threads from over the years.

[CES020]

How much you got?

You can start at $15,000 and head over $100,000 and stop many places in between. In general, you get what you pay for.

[artbot]

i have a total piece of crap antique shopbot. and it's made me a lot of money. you can get a brand new one for $18,000. if i was upgrading, i'd get on the shopbot forum and get a used one. they are very simple and will not die.

if you're not going to use it constantly, go low end.

[choucove]

I'm not sure what kind of budget we have to work with yet, but low end is all we really need as right now we don't foresee a continual use of it except for select jobs and to expand some of our offerings. Less than $20k to enter in is a lot less than we were expecting, as one of our dealers we spoke with quoted us a minimum of $50k to $100k and up.

Mainly, we are looking for something that will be able to produce at least 4' by 8' area, but I'm not sure the size ranges of these things either, to know what to expect for size and price. Are there specific brands to look for, or to look out for?

[Coloradosigns]

Best Bang for Buck, i'd suggest multi cam

[artbot]

also remember what's it's being used for...not only how often. if you are piercing some dibond letters, or cutting plywood, etc. just what kind of accuracy do you need? none. finer cnc's are for perfect .001 cuts, pieces fitting inside of other pieces, etc. just cut out letters? ...good no matter what the accuracy.

i made this sign with my piece of junk. probably not worth more than $1500 used. a $20,000 cnc would have produced the same job. only i would have been forced to charge the client a lot more because of the overhead. in the end delivering them less sign for the money. or the same sign for more money.

[Donny7833]

I would call that point proven Artbot. Good lookin stuff.

[choucove]

That is really great work! One thing, since I really know nothing about this kind of equipment yet, is how versatile is it for materials? Do you have to get a specific kind of router to be able to cut aluminum (as that is the great majority of all our fabrication) or does it just depend upon the router tool or drill bit for what you can cut? Essentially I believe what they need is something that can cut aluminum, but ideally it would be great to also cut wood and plastics.

Again, I apologize if these questions are too dumb or basic, really this is the first time that I have researched into this area for the shop! Thank you all so much for your time and help!

[signage]

For cutting Aluminum you are better off with a spindle rather than just a router.

[signage]

Artbot do you have any picture of your shopbot?

[SignManiac]

Most of my dimensional portfolio work posted over the years hear was done on a 5x10 Multicam. CNC's are basic tools.. Garbage in, garbage out... Only as good as the guy pushing the buttons. Do your research, define your market, buy as much as you can up front.

[SqueeGee]

You'll want to have a mister if you're going to cut aluminum but other than that, everything else is just determined by the bit you use.

Even though you don't anticipate doing anything over 4'x8’, I'd recommend getting a 5'x10' table instead if you've got room for it. I've seen many folks on here mention that they wished they had gone bigger but haven't seen anyone wish they had gone smaller.

Vacuum hold down is a must.

Tool changer and camera "eye" to register prints are snazzy upgrades if you can afford them.

Don't forget to budget for phase converters if you don't have 3 phase service at your shop, dust collection, compressed air and software.

I'd highly recommend AXYZ Automation for the CNC and EnRoute for the software.

Also, check out http://www.cncrouterstore.com/

You might be able to pick up an excellent used CNC for a fraction of the cost of a new one.

[iSign]

my Multicam has run 5 days a week for the last 2 weeks, but it has hardly ever run that much before in the last 2-1/2 years of depressed economy... but the machine has every reason to last 20 years... and i can grow into it... most of what I've done in the infancy of learning the machine could have been done on a shopbot... but this may not always be true...

One of the coolest things I've routed so far is this model of the island of Maui.
Just today my friend who makes molds stopped by to report that the supplies are in for making a mold of this piece:

(once that first mold is done, & I do a resin cast, painted to look like bronze... then I will need to rout the rest of the Hawaiian Islands.. and then maybe rout them all a different size too, for selling the faux bronze castings to local tourist shops... BUT also selling the one off Koa masterpieces to adorn the homes of some of Maui's many millionaires or celebrities...

http://www.signs101.com/photopost/data/500/medium/maui72b.jpg

http://www.signs101.com/photopost/data/500/medium/maui72.jpg

I guess my point is that when you buy a machine that can last as long as a Multicam, you need to think about how you will be using it in 5 to 10 years... don't be limited by how you will use it when you don't know a thing about it...

[artbot]

@iSign great reply!

what are you using for the poly-metal? luminore, smooth-on??? i've decided to use some poly-metal (cold casting) but haven't gotten all the samples together to compare.

[Techman]

Vectric Aspire is becoming a software of choice for CNC work There are different levels of it such as V Carve pro cut 3D or the highest called Aspire which is at least 25% of the cost of the others..

I have Art Cam but find myself using Aspire because it is so easy to get something done with it. Also the forums, the support community and training videos are FREE where the other charge several hundreds to get you started.
Vectric.com

[FatCat]

Just wanted to say this is a great thread with a lot of great info. Been kicking around the idea of getting a CNC myself, though not real soon. I'm a "learn all I can and absorb" type of person before I actually pull the trigger, lol.

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

probably not worth more than $1500 used.

Ha Ha, I got you beat... I paid $1500 for my POS Gerber, and like you it has made me lots of money.

Mine is so bad, I have to increase the size 1.05% just to be the correct size, and I can't figure out why it does that.

One thing to go for is table size. Mine is 27" x 48", and I can panel, but its a pita... I'd rather have a 4' x 8' table.

[artbot]

nooooo one's got me beat! my cnc was back in the day when you assembled them yourself, and built your own table out of WOOD. that's right. my cnc is made out of u-channel and 2x6's. hooked up to a 386 running dos. with 2 big noisy porter cable 2hp routers. actually i'm bidding mine down to $300 because i seriously doubt i could convince someone to buy it.

yet.... it cuts (this stuff) and will not die!

we should start a thread of ugly equipment. wired together, duct taped, covers off, leaking.... i'd take a picture of my cnc but recently my girlfriend piled tools and beach toys all over it. you can hardly see it.

[choucove]

This has been a tremendously helpful thread. I will plan on taking this information and pouring over it (for a long time I am sure) to figure out where to go from here. The general feeling that I am getting, as well, is if we are looking into getting one of these for the first time, we should 1) look into a possibly used system to save the extra money, and 2) be sure we get a big enough system to handle 4' X 8' or even larger.

[artbot]

you want to go just 4'. make sure the table cuts at least 49" (because mdf and others run 49"). mine goes out to 52" x 98". just enough to make a 4x8 not too tight. as far as the used system. if it's in decent shape it will do the job. vacuum hold down for here and there cutting isn't a must. i have a so-so vacuum table on mine (home made). but most of the time. i know where the file is dropping and i simply drill some short drywall screws through the substrate and literally screw the sheet to the table. for small pieces this can be odd because your part can get a little squirrelly when the bit finishes the cut. i'd say $10,000 would buy you are really sweet used low end table. really nice table indeed. it would be a while before you get savvy enough to need more table. also beware of very very nice, once extremely expensive tables. it would be like buying a way old flatbed printer. keep the table simple and with a large community to discuss techniques and maintenance.

check out this deal

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13258

this one has a lot of upgrades for 15k.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13230

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

we should start a thread of ugly equipment. wired together, duct taped, covers off, leaking....

Count me in...I'll just have to get photos....

And I'll make sure that I get a shot of the ancient computer that drives it with the Windows 98 start up screen in the background...

[jhilldesigns]

heh i have a squirrly win 98 comp running mine as well - half the time I boot up it just doesnt and half the time it does - cant update because of the proprietary serial card needed to communicate

[andy]

Ha Ha, I got you beat... I paid $1500 for my POS Gerber, and like you it has made me lots of money.

Mine is so bad, I have to increase the size 1.05% just to be the correct size, and I can't figure out why it does that.

One thing to go for is table size. Mine is 27" x 48", and I can panel, but its a pita... I'd rather have a 4' x 8' table.

Sounds to me like the setup data in your control software is not quite right... the numerical values which tell the control software what gearing ratios it's working with are wrong. If you're having to increase files by 0.5% I suspect that the gear size in your control software is smaller than the actual gearing on the machine.... this would explain why things aren't coming out at the exact size they should be.

The other answer is someone "repaired" your machine before you bought it and replaced either a ball screw or a drive gear with a new part which "looked" the right size but is actually slightly undersize.

If you spend a hour poking around your machine with a vernier guage you will probably find a relatively easy way to fix the sizing problem.

[cdiesel]

Just to show the other side of the coin, our new Zund will be here next week.. Total price is $175k.

[OhioSignShop]

do you get smooth curves and straight lines in say acrylic with the Shopbot? the price being so low I wonder if it has some major flaw I'm missing

[Techman]

Shop bot is a fine machine. IT has nice curves and nice straights.
So does my machine. It cost way less than a shop bot.

[artbot]

keep in mind i know very very little about programming cnc files. i learned what i need to learn to make it work and that was it. ...i draw my files on a proxy platen in corel, export to .dxf, shopbot software converts the file to a .sbp and that is as much as i know.

i've noticed if i chinch on the nodes i get a notch here and there. like using absolute minimum nodes in corel (one single node for a very sharp turn instead of two or three). but long smooth curves and straight lines... those are always perfect.