New computer freezing.

[Colin]

My new computer is occasionally freezing up. It usually happens while on the 'net. The screen (LCD) will just go white with a bunch of vertical lines.
Esc / F5 / Ctrl-Alt-Del all do nothing; I have to manually turn it off and re-start. Windows then does it's file check thing and eventually brings it back.
I took it to the computer store last Saturday and they felt that it was the hard drive and so they ghosted my old one to a new one, but it's still doing it.
Any ideas? Video card? Motherboard?

There's no way my old Sacnvec Inspire 1.6 security dongle could be causing the problem is there?

[bullcrew]

I'd look at memory, the latency might not be right.
Have you upgraded memory lately.
When it does the wierd and unexplainable it's usually memory, unless your monitor POPS real loud and a ploom of smoke comes pouring out like mine last month. Then it's a safe bet it's the monitor.

[Techman]

memory,, usually,,

[Colin]

It's a brand new dual core machine with 2 gigs of RAM.

[Cadmn]

Colin techs are taught first thing is Hard drive most customers never question it & at couple hundred bucks its nice profit because now in most cases the store has a good hard drive to sell to the next unsuspecting customer big scam watched it many times as an old boss was a good crook
did you run all the virus/ spyware checkers sounds like memory bog to me & spyware will eat memmory quick & yes even 2 gig

[Techman]

Ram could be loose.

[Colin]

Cadmn: There was no charge to me, it's covered under warrentee. (they're aquaintences of mine).

[Geary]

Colin you said, "usually happens while on the net" but, does it EVER happen like when working a lot on it with graphic programs? How 'bout gaming?

I'm just thinking video card/monitor issue at the moment.

~Gear

[Colin]

Gear: I don't do any gaming on it. I sense no corelation to any heavy task and the freezing, it will crash when doing the most basic thing - but it always does it when in use, it will idle all night with no problem.

I will likely be taking it back again on Friday night so they can have some time with it over the W/E. I just thought one of you computer smartie-pants might be able to point me in the right direction.

[2NinerNiner2]

Colin - A friend of mine had a similar thing happen with his, although it was a CRT display and an older system. I did some troubleshooting and found it to be, of all things, the monitor cable! His was a cramped installation and the cable was being forced to make a hard 90 degree bend right at the connector out of the PC; I could duplicate the problem by moving the cable around; an internal break in the cable. A new cable cured the problem. RAM issues usually result in a no POST(Power On Self Test), no boot. As yours fires up and runs properly until the issue occurs, I'll concur with Geary and the vid. card/ monitor. Do you have another monitor you can hook up to eliminate that from the equation?

[Colin]

This problem was occuring last week with the monitor cable that came with the AOC monitor. It was a little short, so when I took the computer in last weekend I got a slightly longer cable; so, it's been doing it with both cables.
Are you guys suggesting it could have something to do with the monitor itself, or its relationship with the video card.
(I'm not sure if its an on-board card or not).

Thanks.

[2NinerNiner2]

That would seem to eliminate the cable. If you can, borrow another monitor and see if it still happens. If so, then you can at least nix the monitor as the culprit. Should it be on-board video, then good thing it's under warranty as that usually implies a motherboard change. That or install a separate video card.

[Techman]

RAM issues usually result in a no POST(Power On Self Test), no boot

Not always,, just sometimes.
The only time that will occurr is when the computer tries to write the boot sequences to a bad spot in the memory..
If it can write there,, it will boot fine,, but later it will crash when something is trying to use certain bad areas further up in the addresses.

In order to keep from just GUESSING,, find a good memory checker online,, and use it while playing media player with graphics.. And then use it while a heavy graphics screen saver is running..

If it does not find a bad spot in the mempory chips but still crashes,, your problem lies elsewhere..

That would be the first thing I would do..memory checker. I do not understand why the shop just ghosted your hard drive without doing a mem check.

The problem with MOST basement computer geeks is they just muddle around. Usualyl fall upon the problem after a while of guessing. You have to do diagnostics with the proper software. If not you are just guessing.

Also,, turn OFF reboot on error. Let it give you a blue screen with error codes in it. Then you wil usually pinpoint the general problem.

[Geary]

The problem with MOST basement computer geeks is they just muddle around. Usualyl fall upon the problem after a while of guessing.

If you are speaking to the lot of us here....then welcome to the basement friend....'cause you, me, all of us are just guessing, What else can we do ? :wink:


So, Colin: Yeah, man....I've seen this sort of thing as well with the monitor and video card issue.

G.

[OldPaint]

It's a brand new dual core machine with 2 gigs of RAM.
too funny...and youre tryin to run a 16 bit win 95/98 copy of INSPIRE with a dongle??????
you need to wash it down with ACETONE.......HEHEHEHEHE
disconect the dongle....XP probable dont understand what its doin there.......that would my 1st shot, then uninstall the INSPIRE....2nd if you still got the problem ACETONE IT......

[OldPaint]

:Oops: :Coffee: :wine-smi:

[Techman]

What else can we do

In order to keep from just GUESSING,, find a good memory checker online,, and use it while playing media player with graphics.. And then use it while a heavy graphics screen saver is running..


You have to do diagnostics with the proper software. If not you are just guessing.

There are several really good utils around for doing a diagnostic on a sick computer... if they are used,, then guessing is almost nill.

Hiren's boot CD has just about every util you can find for making your computer run..

PC diagnostics run under Windows, Windows PE, Linux, and DOS. These products deflect calls from support centers. When end users have the tools they need to troubleshoot their problems independently saving them frustrations of chasing an invisible glitch..

There,, that should suffice.. ;)

[Cadmn]

colin once figured please post answer this supposed smartie pants NOT would like to learn as computers always learn new tricks & so do I thanks

[Liquid GraphX]

It sounds likeyou have an PCI or AGP Video Crad and it's haveing some heat issues! If your Vid card overheats like in the summer its will cause video faliure. A good test is to open the side of the case and point a fan at the video card turn it on low. If that solves the problem your fan on the video card is shot and you can replace it for about 2 bucks!

[Colin]

too funny...and youre tryin to run a 16 bit win 95/98 copy of INSPIRE with a dongle??????

disconect the dongle....XP probable dont understand what its doin there.......that would my 1st shot, then uninstall the INSPIRE

OP: I'm not using Casmate Pro (which was 16 bit) but Inspire, which is 32 bit............and it ran just fine on my previous XP computer.

When I bought this new machine, I opted for a better case with rubber feet and a large, slower moving fan (instead of fast-running tiny ones). It is a very quiet machine and they said they never have problems with cooling with these. BTW: It's a computer store, not a basement guy.

[Colin]

Oh, and I forgot to say: they didn't do any extensive testing at the store because I wasn't able to leave it with them.

[JMDigital]

I am also thinking Video card problem. If the video cable plugs into to back of the pc in the cluster where the keyboard, mouse, usb and other connectors are then the video is built in. Built in video cards rarely have a "heat problem" because they do not have a processor doing the work. It could be just bad. If the plug is down towards the bottom of the case then its a separate video card. If it is seprate You should check to see if there is a fan on the video card and if it is clogged with dust or not spinning. Also when this problem happens push the caps lock a few times and see of the caps lock light goes on and off, this will help tell if the PC is locked up or if the video card is freaking out. The CPU could also be getting too hot. You can see the temp of the cpu if you re-boot and get into the bios (del key after turning it on) there is a menu in there that has the temp reading.

Check those few things then re-post...

[Sabre]

Is there any chance you can take a pict of the white with vertical lines?

It sounds very much like a hardware problem, most likely as others pointed out in your video card (be it onboard or slotted) or in your monitor. If you could scrounge up a loaner monitor to run for a couple days that might be best to start the elimination process. How often does it happen?

[Colin]

I will take a picture of it the next time it happens, and post it.
Sometimes the vertical lines are across the screen L to R and in color, and other times they're B&W and more just in the centre area.

I'm going to take it back to the store Friday night or Sat AM so they can have some time with it.

[Colin]

Aha! Having suspected a correlation between the freezing and something video-wise, I played an MP3 song on Windows media player, and made sure to turn on the "Visualization" effects (you know, that LSD like stuff that randomly goes on while a song plays). After a couple of minutes, she crashed...........here's a photo. The screen looks different each time it happens.

Sorry 'bout the flash.

[JMDigital]

I think the problem is in the pc. Not the monitor. have the store replace video card then make them re-do the media player test you did. If you have an on-board video get a video card. The on-board shares memory from the system and is slow. Nvida-6600 or so is a nice card. 175 bux.

[Geary]

Man, I would now bet a bag o' nickels that it's the vid card. But, ya know, I shouldn't because after all....I'm not EVEN a "basement geek" so what the hell do I know, eh?

~G.

[Colin]

I sent this photo to the comp. store and they said "Motherboard", and a guy is gonna be here in 1/2 hour to put in a new one.

[JMDigital]

I sent this photo to the comp. store and they said "Motherboard", and a guy is gonna be here in 1/2 hour to put in a new one.

I bet the video is built in then, Ask them about a sep. video card. It will speed up your pc.

[OldPaint]

ok tell them at the computer store....to put in an ATI VIDEO CARD......you prbable have a NEVIDIA CARD...and some of them will cause problems.......andddddd..you need at least a 64 meg card and with a dual processor you more then likly need a 256 meg VIDEO CARD

[Sabre]

Glad you're getting things fixed up.

OldPaint, with all due respect, the brand of video card will make no impact on his problem or any problems like that. I myself am an ATI fan but there are no faults that can be traced down to a problem in general with nVidia cards. I also question the 256MB recommendation. Larger video ram quantities are generally reserved for 3D gaming/rendering. The 64MB allocated by his onboardchipset will be more than enough to run his display at greater than 1600x1200 @ 85+Hz. I do not argue that a seperate video card is better. If you can pop in a cheap Radeon 9250 or something to fee up your RAM and offload the visual processing to your card it will benefit your system without a doubt.

[OldPaint]

Glad you're getting things fixed up.

OldPaint, with all due respect, the brand of video card will make no impact on his problem or any problems like that. I myself am an ATI fan but there are no faults that can be traced down to a problem in general with nVidia cards. I also question the 256MB recommendation. Larger video ram quantities are generally reserved for 3D gaming/rendering. The 64MB allocated by his onboardchipset will be more than enough to run his display at greater than 1600x1200 @ 85+Hz. I do not argue that a seperate video card is better. If you can pop in a cheap Radeon 9250 or something to fee up your RAM and offload the visual processing to your card it will benefit your system without a doubt.
WELLLLLLLLL.....ian also a ATI GUY, and iam running a nivdia 256 MEG card in this machine(and i had problems with the install of the NIVIDA) i been fixin/buildin computers since 94-95.....and I HAVE HAD PROBLEMS WITH NVIDIA cards...doin exactly what collin is experaincing.
and i said 64 MEG card should be enough...BUT with a dual processor.....you need something more then just enough.

[Sabre]

I'll refrain from highjacking another thread and wont question your opinion, Oldpaint. We can agree it's most likely video related, and are pleased that it's getting taken care of.

[Colin]

I'm baaack. New motherboard has been installed and seems to have fixed the problem. It is an on-board video card. I axed him about the advantage of having a more kick-*** separate video card and he said that might have been true 6 months ago, but not anymore - for my purposes (no gaming).

Thanks for all the input everyone!

[Bobby H]

Actually, integrated video chips are not very good except for entry level computer use. There's no way I'll use a computer in such a configuration. I even waited a few months before buying my Dell notebook. The first Inspiron 6000 models had only integrated Intel graphics chips and ran fairly slow. A couple months later Dell started putting ATI PCI-X cards in the machines and that gave them an 80% or better speed boost. Once that change was made I then ordered by notebook.

The problem is the onboard video processing chip will constantly draw from your main system memory. That slows down a machine quite a lot. Simply having any separate graphics card, be it AGP, PCI-X or just plain PCI will free up your system memory to only do what it was intended to do.

Hopefully this motherboard has an onboard PCI-X card slot and the case has a good power supply (450 watts or better). Many entry level computers with integrated video acceleration have no expansion AGP or PCI-X ports. You're just stuck with that on board chip acting like a parasite to your system RAM.

I would recommend buying a dedicated video card, even an entry level unit such as an ATI Radeon X300 or X600. It will make your machine run a lot better than having to slog through using integrated graphics. This will be especially critical if you have 1GB or less of RAM installed.

[Geary]

Congrats Colin,

Glad you've gotten down to the nitty-gritty and found a fix so fast. Way to go! Now......it's back to work I suppose.....LOL !!

:thumb:

~gear

[Colin]

Actually, integrated video chips are not very good except for entry level computer use. There's no way I'll use a computer in such a configuration. I even waited a few months before buying my Dell notebook. The first Inspiron 6000 models had only integrated Intel graphics chips and ran fairly slow. A couple months later Dell started putting ATI PCI-X cards in the machines and that gave them an 80% or better speed boost. Once that change was made I then ordered by notebook.

The problem is the onboard video processing chip will constantly draw from your main system memory. That slows down a machine quite a lot. Simply having any separate graphics card, be it AGP, PCI-X or just plain PCI will free up your system memory to only do what it was intended to do.

Hopefully this motherboard has an onboard PCI-X card slot and the case has a good power supply (450 watts or better). Many entry level computers with integrated video acceleration have no expansion AGP or PCI-X ports. You're just stuck with that on board chip acting like a parasite to your system RAM.

I would recommend buying a dedicated video card, even an entry level unit such as an ATI Radeon X300 or X600. It will make your machine run a lot better than having to slog through using integrated graphics. This will be especially critical if you have 1GB or less of RAM installed.


From what I'm told by these guys who work in the computer industry, what you've said may have been true 6+ months ago, but you know how it is in computerdom.....today's entry level stuff is better than yesterdays best.
Although, what you've said would still probably be true for anyone doing gaming, but I don't, and sign software - even photoshop, is not very much work for a modern video card (on-board or otherwise).

Just glad to have it fixed.

:thumb:

[Cadmn]

colin old computer geek with friends still building daily you stated not basement computer company sorry but I've worked with the so called experts at stores like best buy circuit city etc & have had the oppurtunity to fire Most. congrats on getting it ironed out But you have dual core processor so the main process can be carried out by specialised parts of the CPU so why would you expect that having a seperate processor & memory for drawing a picture(graphics) wouldn't be help ful ? couple years ago ATI had major probs with some softwares. always been opionated to AMD & Nvidia. basement builders often understand the equipment better because they can't call the HOME office for help they talk straight to manufacturer & often have customers requiring top notch cutting edge equipment In 91 we had customer that was always upgrading to latest cpu & more memory

[Colin]

Don't get me wrong Cadmn, but without punctuation (periods, commas etc), I have a very hard time understanding your post.

[Techman]

Actually, integrated video chips are not very good except for entry level computer use..

Back in the day... This was sometimes true. (Emachines) Mostly because if on board video or sound went out you were out of luck. You had to get a new card or a new motherboard. Today these integrated parts rarely if ever break. Personally, we saw very few motherboard problems and when they did appear they rose up during the first few weeks of operation.

Today, it is well known that early onboard video and sound was not the best. But later models today are using the exact same video and sound driver chips that the off board cards are using.

Gamers, and power users love off board stuff. They do not want integrated anything. They tweak, twist, overclock and whatever they can to get more from less. Thus integrated anything carries a less desirable reputation.

However, for the every day user who could not care less about getting that final cpu cycle integrated motherboards are just fine.

As for which chips is better. AMD vs Intel.
This debate is a time tested custom. But,,
AMd became the chip of choice for gamers, tweakers and anyone else who wished to overclock. AMD was perceived to be sexy, exciting and cool. Intel became the least desirable because those chips were locked and generally not overclockable and was perceived to be stodgy, and restricting.

However, for Engineering aplications such as those used at Space Centers, government installations... Intel was the preferred CPU because of lesser crash problems associated with heavy floating point and other CPU intensive needs. Plus most of thier software was optimized for intel chips.

And finally
An example. When Doom 3 came out it was said that onyl the best of the best AMD machines could run it.. Hogwash. My plain old Dell P4 office machine with integrated everything ran it just fine.

And finally. This is important. Computer shops have different areas of expertise. Some techs are great with netowrks, some are great with installs, and some are great at general building tweaking. I was considered the win98 SE and M$ ACCESS guru. There is just too much to know and when you got really good at something a new OS would come out.. Very few are good at all of it. So, when you goto a shop,, and talk to someone who doesn't help, that does not mean he is a dummy, or the shop is incompetant, it usually means you didn't find the expert in that problem area.

That is why diagnostic tools are so very important..

[Geary]

Very well put Techman. You obviously know your stuff. While in the union I did a lot of signage installs up north at the various MS campuses and on breaks, I would sometimes get into talks with the upper-class techs there (Serious "Geekdom") . And your words ring true...especially about the days of when all the needs for supporting the "floating point" issues came about, this is exactly the way they spoke. And I don't believe they were just using the "company line" for their Intel buddys . They had massive data on tests performed over long periods of time. They absolutely HATED AMD machines....but, were also stuck with trying to make them work better. But, hey, that's what they earned their hundred Gs for. :wink:

Thanks for sharing. Seriously. :thumb:

~Gear

[Bobby H]

I'm still very far from being "sold" on using any integrated video chip solutions for any kind of production oriented graphics computer.

First, the electronics sales people at any Best Buy or whatever retail store du jour all have a vested interest in trying to push off the garbage they cannot manage to sell.

I have caught many electronics guys in outright lies trying to claim certain products did something they actually did not do at all. For instance, back when DVD was just getting a toe hold in the market place lots of sales droids would try to claim a mere Dolby Pro-Logic equipped receiver had full blown DTS and Dolby Digital 5.1 decoding when a simple glance through the manual would reveal otherwise. Often these sales people just have to say anything to get the product sold, otherwise they face getting the axe. Heck, many stores demand they get so many maintenance agreements sold with the product or they face getting terminated.

The management for many computing and electronics stores has an attitude that the product does not necessarily have to be good. It just has to be bought. With that, I always must examine their claims of what's good enough for me for any motive of bias.

It is a fact any computer using an integrated video acceleration chip on a motherboard is going to be slower than a dedicated video card with its own on board memory separate from the main system. The memory is only one issue. You also have the issue of bus speed between the accelerator chip(s) and memory. Main board bus speeds are very slow compared to that of dedicated graphics boards.

Now those guys at Best Buy or whereever may claim an integrated solution is "good enough." But then they don't know what applications all of us use and what we're doing with those applications. I can ask certain tasks of Photoshop or After Effects that will bring even the most well equipped computer systems to their knees. New versions of applications like Photoshop demand even more from computer systems. My notebook computer has a dedicated PCI-X card, but I still needed to max out its RAM to 2GB to get rid of some lag still present in PhotoshopCS2. Windows Vista is going to demand a lot more in the manner of system performance, probably more than a lot of low cost integrated graphics chip systems will be able to support. I'll probably only get Vista loaded on a new machine with all new hardware rather than buy an upgrade of it to load on any older machine.

[Techman]

I'm still very far from being "sold" on using any integrated video chip solutions for any kind of production oriented graphics computer.

I have caught many electronics guys in outright lies trying to claim certain products did something they actually did not do at all.

Maybe you should start hanging around with some honest people and befriending your neighborhood geek...

It is a fact any computer using an integrated video acceleration chip on a motherboard is going to be slower than a dedicated video card with its own on board memory separate from the main system

With todays bus speeds and CPU speed, and loads of cheap memory.. This point is MOOT and irrelevant..

[OldPaint]

iam one of the old school......i like my video card off the motherboard, ive made the concession to go with onboard sound because how bad can it be? i have a IWILL 1 gig m/b with XP HOME....and i cant get the onboard sound to work.....so i put in a sound card. both machines i built, this 1 gig hasa a ATI 64 MEG video card...and works great.
i had a 32 meg ATI card and i bought NVIDIA 256 meg, which give me all kinda trouble installin it..but i got it workin, problem was because i had ATI in the computer.....
now a 256 meg video card WILL MAKE A BIG DIFFERANCE in any computer....