Real fire CD?

[Flame]

As some of you may have noticed, I have a thing for flames and fire.:Big Laugh And I love making digital prints with the fire effect, but have noticed that those image CD's usually only have one or two on there. So... I was thinking of making my own signfills cd packed with, simply, fire. Fire at night, fire in the day, red fire, blue fire, orange fire, yellow fire etc... All saved in JPEG format averaging about 1.6MB per image. Kind of middle of the road for signfills.

Was kind of wondering what the interest would be in something like this? Is that something that other people (ie. all of you) would want to buy. Fred, I know you have done plenty of clipart in the past, if there IS interest, how would you suggest I go about doing this?

Just kind of curious guys.:thankyou:

[Schultz Designs]

If I didn't lack the printing capabilities, I'd say sign me up. I live in an oilfield driven area and flames are always popular around here.

[iSign]

Have you seen our merchant member Barry's Digital Flames CD? (http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5214&highlight=digital+flames)

[Flame]

Have you seen our merchant member Barry's Digital Flames CD? (http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5214&highlight=digital+flames)


I sure have Doug. Mine would be a little different. For one it would be a heckuva lot cheaper. And 2, it would be cheaper cuz it isn't hand drawn stuff, only photoshopped photographs. You know, Taking digital photographs and then cleaning them up all purty in photoshop. That's all that those signfills CD's are, and people seem to buy "fills" like that all the time off of the web. I would collect around 50-100 images of fire alone, to use as fills for text, vector art, vehicle wraps etc.

That said, I will still probably buy Barry's real fire CD. I'll add it to my collection.:biggrin:

[Schultz Designs]

Oh, Have I!!! Yes, very tempting stuff. but can you just use them as a fill or background on a separate piece of work? Eg. digitally printed vehicle decals? or is this available in some form from aurora or something similar?

[Cadmn]

Kevin I bet someone on here can print for you

[Techman]

why don't you write a tutorial on how to make fire..

[Fred Weiss]

Is there a market? ... yes but unless you are going to structure them in layers in Photoshop to make them easier to modify or are going to perform some Photoshop airbrush artistry, I doubt you'll sell a lot. You also, IMHO give too little credit to folks like Dave Dorsey of Aurora Graphics or Carol Begin of Voodoo Graphique who don't just go out and take photos but actually create those items from scratch at huge sizes. If it was easy, as you suggest, there would be no market and everybody would just take pictures.

As to pricing, why would you propose to undercut existing artists? Do you really feel they're not entitled to some return for providing users with a collection that typically earns its cost back in the first week and goes on to earn profits for you for as long as you choose to use it?

This is what clients will pay whatever you want to have it on their car or bike. Not a photograph.

http://www.allcompu.com/pavge/assets/Z-1closeup.gif

[Techman]

only photoshopped photographs.
Just for thought,, Why would I purchase photoshopped pics of fire,, when I could make my own? No matter how cheap you made them..

[Dave Drane]

As to pricing, why would you propose to undercut existing artists? Do you really feel they're not entitled to some return for providing users with a collection that typically earns its cost back in the first week and goes on to earn profits for you for as long as you choose to use it?


Haven't you noticed Fred that Flameboy is not a lowballer but still likes to undercut his competitors.:thumb: :wink: :wink:

[Flame]

Ahem. Like I said, it would be cheaper cuz they wouldn't be layered files like Barry's. Barry does awesome work, and I don't meant to discredit him or undercut him. I simply want to creat a FILLS CD, like the one posted below...

http://www.signwarehouse.com/CA-VE-p-CA-GL-SIGNFILHLP.html

They sell it for $159.95 and all that is on it is pretty much good quality, close up photographs. I wasn't meaning to replace the "real flames" pack, simply have a ready CD full of source images if you wanted to say, throw in the fire effect on some text in Flexisign, or, do a quickie digital print on a mail box and wrap it in fire with a black background (done that once already. LOTS of fun). You know, just simple stuff when it would be nice to have the fire effect ready to use. I have run into this a lot myself so I am working on getting a bunch of source files ready for when I need them.

I was just wondering if there would be a market for this type of fills pack for other people...?

[Fred Weiss]

I was just wondering if there would be a market for this type of fills pack for other people...?

It's possible.

[Flame]

Just for thought,, Why would I purchase photoshopped pics of fire,, when I could make my own? No matter how cheap you made them..


Um, cuz you could have about 50 of them, ready to use and on a disc so you don't have to go out and do all the work yourself. In the time it took you to photograph and edit 5-10 pictures, you would lose more money in loss of labor on OTHER stuff than the CD would cost you. That's how ALL of the clipart/ signfills guys make their money. You know? I could go out and make my own clipart of all those goofy looking dogs, cats, cars etc. But why? It would cost me a fortune to sit down and re-create all of those myself. Rather just buy them all ready to go.

That's my mindset anyways. Correct me if I'm wrong, but would you rather save yourself (this is just an example) $100 by spending 10 hours photographing and editing pictures of fire, or would you rather spend those 10 hours making $75-$150 an hour making signs and just pay the retail price for the CD?

[Fred Weiss]

Flame Master, you're a hard guy to get a read on.

That last post was excellent logic, explaining concisely the value of clipart and stock photography. Comparing that to the previous clues as to your thinking I find myself baffled by your comments as to pricing strategy and other issues.

[Flame]

lol. Guess I really riled some people up over my pricing huh? I admit my pricing may be a little off, but I'm fairly new and have only been gauging it off of what my neighbors are charging, and what it would take to be competitive.

That said, I would also like to say I'm a little different than most sign shops, as about HALF of my work has nothing to do with signs. I make motocross graphics. You know, jersey lettering, chest protector nameplates, bike kits etc. In that world, you HAVE to have competitive pricing with everyone else, because while there are very few doing bike graphics, thay all advertise a LOT. Everyone in the motocross industry knows the going rate for these kind of products and if you're a little high you are going to suffer big time! Luckily there are only a few lowballers, and the going rate is actually quite nice. Good profits for easy to make stuff (once you learn how anyways...). I honestly wouldn't mind ONLY making motocross products, like what was in my original business plan. But... I found making signs and lettering vehicles is pretty good money too. So I decided to enter the "sign" biz as well.

I hope that gives atleast a little insight into how and why I price stuff. I know I have a long ways to go to get "perfect" pricing, but I am working on it and I would appreciate it if people could quit tagging me as a lowballer. There are plenty of others around here (ahem, my area) that are deserving of that term.

[Fred Weiss]

No I wasn't tagging you as a lowballer. I was just alluding to the many peculiar pricing mindsets we seem to get into in the sign and related graphic production fields. Mindsets that have to do with perceived value and imposing our own values instead of being more open minded and thinking beyond our own experience.

For example, an 18 x 24 coro brings in $30 and an 18 x 24 aluminum brings in $55 to $60 on average. The difference in materials is about $3.50 and the time is the same. See what I mean.

Your mindset with digital art appears to be based on how long it would take someone like you to duplicate the creation of the artwork. And it's probably effected by the prices you see for art mill CD's at computer stores and online sellers where you can supposedly get 600,000 art files for $50.

But consider this. You are actually selling the right to benefit from not just your time but also your expertise and to do so indefinitely and repeatedly. You are placing a limit on what you will receive from your licensee while the licensee is receiving legal rights to make an unlimited amount of profit from your work.

Now consider all the people who do not have the ability to do what you have done (or the desire to do it) but who may also be able to profit from your creations. Their numbers are legion and they far outnumber the people you know in your experience and who you believe will hold you to some artifically low pricing standard. These are the people who are "stupid" enough to be at places like FotoSearch, Comstock and Corbis or Getty Images and who will pay you almost as much for a single useful piece of work as you propose to sell an entire CD for.

Why would they? Because they can profit by acquiring rights to your work.

We sell to both markets. They are both profitable for us. But we recognize the disparity between, for example, 14 cents an image on CD to sign industry licensees for our Plotter Art Originals and the $25 per image, $1,792 per collection selling price our same images regularly sell for at FotoSearch.

Hope I made my point.

[Flame]

Hmmmm.... Fred, that post makes a person think. Honestly.

I wasn't trying to sound like I would try to sell my images cheap to take share of the market, if I can make good images then I would want a fair going price. I WAS saying I wouldn't sell it for as much as the "real flames" pack because simply put, it would be less artwork. It would be images rather than than vector (um... or did he do them in raster?) artwork.

Like I said, never tried something like this and I am willing to listen.





Oh, and Fred. I checked out Fotosearch for fire, just for fun. Here's a link to a kind of image like I am talking about. They want $100 for a 2MB image of it though! wow...

http://www.fotosearch.com/DGT081/cb108085/

[Fred Weiss]

$105 to $350 actually depending on the pixel dimensions. The image is from Corbis ... owned by Bill Gates and sold through Fotosearch under a licensing agreement.

Now if I told you that more people in the world everyday buy images from places like Fotosearch than they buy from low end sellers, would that surprise you? Raise your awareness?

You should not base your pricing and marketing strategies on the do it yourselfers. Nor should you base it on what Barry may appear to be doing. You should base it on what the most successful art providers are doing and getting. Make sense?

[wsgraphix]

did ya notice all sizes and quality of those were RGB? when changed over to CMYK, it loses something....

i found that hard to believe, but it does lose something in the quality when converting RGB to CMYK.

$350 for a photo???? all the fire i do, i light up some napkins soaked in kerosene, and then use that one image to scale manipulate etc....

i can see paying 350 for the flames CD, that is something i do not have time to set down and do

but actual photos, i try and do my own whenever possible. for instance a vehicle wrap that they wanted business people on looking professional.... i ended up going to thier office, and just walking around the office grab a few photos and off to the races

[JMDigital]

Flame master - Whatever you decide I would be getting one. I do own the Digital Flames Vol 1 and the Voodoo Graphics set also. I love them both and are worth the $$. I would also buy your cd. Always could use some more flames, even if its photo fills it could come in handy..! I do understand you will price it to match the files. If they are cleaned up digital photos (8mp or 10mp) I can see them costing less then the Digital Flames or Voodoo cd's, as they are used differently.

[Flame]

$105 to $350 actually depending on the pixel dimensions. The image is from Corbis ... owned by Bill Gates and sold through Fotosearch under a licensing agreement.

Now if I told you that more people in the world everyday buy images from places like Fotosearch than they buy from low end sellers, would that surprise you? Raise your awareness?

You should not base your pricing and marketing strategies on the do it yourselfers. Nor should you base it on what Barry may appear to be doing. You should base it on what the most successful art providers are doing and getting. Make sense?


Hmmm.... Makes sense.

Like I said. I'm new and I'm all ears. I will take any and all input seriously.

Thanks for the replies guys, please, if anyone else wants to comment, please do so.

[Flame]

bump

:biggrin:

[Flame]

Don't know why I am reviving this thread, but does anyone want to give me input on whether or not you would have a use for a image like this, and if so what you would use it for?

[Pro Image]

if its a large enough file it could be used as a fill or something along those lines................

[Pro Image]

Well I had a little time today and this is what I used you flame for...........



6374


hope ya like it..............lol

[Flame]

That'll be $100 please....



:Big Laugh

[Pro Image]

CHARGE IT.............


Just think..........You'll never be broke........if I owe ya a 100.00:Big Laugh :Big Laugh

[Flame]

That image is licensed under my name and anyone caught using it without my written permission can and WILL be turned into the authorities for due charges. If you would like to buy the image, it will be $100 and yes, I do happen to have your VISA number (I know the right people and websites...).





lol.

Just funnin' man. I'd rather you don't start selling that stuff, BUT, it's just a low quality example of something I can do. I mean, there's only so much you can do with a 800 pixel image. So whatever. Just know I was only funnin' ya'!

[Dave Drane]

:thumb:

[MAB SIGNS]

Dave, given the volume of your stream you'll never get that fire out.

[skyhigh]

Thanks Dave......I like the way you think.
LMAO

MAB, I'm gonna help him out with my squirt gun.

[MAB SIGNS]

LMAO I can appreciate your enthusiasm. At least yours refills much faster. Dave let me help you out. Have a cold one...:beer

[skyhigh]

Dave, when fighting fires, you should always go to the source of the heat.
I am an Ex-professional fire fighter, so please take my advice.

(just having fun)

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

Flame,
Try this out. Instead of you trying to figure every aspect - do the deed and then team up with someone like Fred. Our money says that he kn ows much more about marketing than you do - just from prior business experience.

Really - what would it cost you? If Fred says yes, you can pretty much figure that you will do something. If he says no - **** on it. (Pardon the pun)

Do the work and let Fred try and sell it.

PS - Fred, let us know when the bootlegs will be available!!!! :Big Laugh

[Flame]

Pro, who says I haven't already talked to Fred? He's actually been quite helpful. I am merely wanting to gain insight on whether or not people dig the fire effect, and how bad they would want it and what they would want it for. Call it, a personal agenda. Or, just plain curiosity.

A few things have changed since I first started this thread. I would still like input though.

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

Nobody says that you haven't spoken with Fred. As far as your idea, Flames have sold for the last 50 years, some more than others - so quit asking and just do - you will probably suprise yourself, that's all I am saying.

Sit on the fence and someone will do it before you, by the morning. LOL

[Dave Drane]

:Big Laugh Dave, when fighting fires, you should always go to the source of the heat.
I am an Ex-professional fire fighter, so please take my advice.

(just having fun)

:Big Laugh :Big Laugh ROFPMSL!!:Big Laugh :Big Laugh

[Cadmn]

LOL MAB !He must be out in Calif helpin out there

[Blazingsun]

Dave I think You need a few More of these:beer :beer :beer to increase the flow to get that fire out.:biggrin:

[Techman]

well.. in OZ they have very little water around.. so they learned to squeeze that water to make it go farther, do more work, with less, so much they are qualified to do anything with nothing..

[Anthony]

Is there a market? ... yes but unless you are going to structure them in layers in Photoshop to make them easier to modify or are going to perform some Photoshop airbrush artistry, I doubt you'll sell a lot. You also, IMHO give too little credit to folks like Dave Dorsey of Aurora Graphics or Carol Begin of Voodoo Graphique who don't just go out and take photos but actually create those items from scratch at huge sizes. If it was easy, as you suggest, there would be no market and everybody would just take pictures.

As to pricing, why would you propose to undercut existing artists? Do you really feel they're not entitled to some return for providing users with a collection that typically earns its cost back in the first week and goes on to earn profits for you for as long as you choose to use it?

This is what clients will pay whatever you want to have it on their car or bike. Not a photograph.

http://www.allcompu.com/pavge/assets/Z-1closeup.gif

Fred where did you get the artwork to make the image in this post or is it something I could buy?

[JMDigital]

Fred where did you get the artwork to make the image in this post or is it something I could buy?

Yes this is Voodoo Graphics CD . They are a vender
here is a link

http://allcompu.com/store2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=32

It is a GREAT collection..

[WOODBS]

wow...ran across this and boy do i feel better about my bashings..lol...we love u flamey

[weaselboogie]

I think if you were to look into doing several on cd, you may need to spend some more money on a nice camera or tweak your existing camera settings.

The problems with flames is that you're trying to shoot in low light (minus the flames) and trying to capture a fast moving object. Thus your resulting image ... motion blur.
High megapixel means jack sometimes. People thing that just because its a high megapixel, means that its high res. Sometimes its just high res crap.
A nice large lens allows a lot of light to enter quickly for a sharp clean motion shot.

HOWEVER, I understand you may have posted this for examples sake but I just wanted you to take this into consideration before pressing further.

[Flame]

This is an OLD, and I mean OOOLLLLDDD.... thread.

Yes, I've gotten my technique down a little better.

[Day Sign Co]

HANG IT UP No decent moto enthuisast would settle for anything less than Acrylic Laq , or Nitro cellouse Debate it all day if you want to Bikers love their flames , cheap way out? haven't seen it don't want to ain't gonna

[WOODBS]

looks the same to me??? lol..jk. funny i found this one huh ?

[weaselboogie]

Yes, much better. Sharper images.

[Flame]

HANG IT UP No decent moto enthuisast would settle for anything less than Acrylic Laq , or Nitro cellouse Debate it all day if you want to Bikers love their flames , cheap way out? haven't seen it don't want to ain't gonna


HUH? You don't even paint dirt bikes, you put graphics on them. Rods and Customs, sure. You airbrush those, but I'm not even interested in that market.

Actually, not even interested in doing that many bikes with this. Thinking more wraps, boards etc?

Sorry, just sorta confused me there.

[Day Sign Co]

Everyone can create digital flames, I'ts not new, printing on vinyl will not give you the market for being the next big thing. Anadaized alu, flotation tanks , electro plating Youv'e got good ideas, keep it up.

[Master's Touch]

Well, at least everyone with photoshop can take a picture and extract a flame....

[Flame]

Well, at least everyone with photoshop can take a picture and extract a flame....




LOL

[Flame]

You discrediting yourself Master?

:cool:

[artsnletters]

Don't know why I am reviving this thread, but does anyone want to give me input on whether or not you would have a use for a image like this, and if so what you would use it for?

Is it just me or is that image blurry? And if that is indicative of what you'd be offering, then NO.

[Flame]

Is it just me or is that image blurry? And if that is indicative of what you'd be offering, then NO.


It's blurry because:

1. Low quality camera

2. I blurred it more so no one could use what I posted.



Both will be different if I put anything out. :)

[artsnletters]

It's blurry because:
1. Low quality camera
2. I blurred it more so no one could use what I posted.
Both will be different if I put anything out. :)
OK that's smart. Did you actually take these photos or "outsource" them?
The newer ones look pretty good.
Tim

[Flame]

I took 'em myself. Took some photography in college.

[Day Sign Co]

I thought you were home scooled:Big Laugh

[Flame]

I thought you were home scooled:Big Laugh



Um.... yeah. College comes AFTER home school.

Does it matter?

[Day Sign Co]

Didn't really know you were home scooled, It doesen't matter

[Gordy Saunders]

When you say a large file, just what numbers are you talking about.

[Flame]

LOL. Alright, yes I was home schooled, and then did some college. Anyways, MOVING on....


3400x2300, 2.7MB. That'd be the size.

[KR3signguy]

Just do it.

[Master's Touch]

Am I discrediting myself? Not at all. My stuff is all one hundred percent done by hand in photoshop.

[Flame]

Am I discrediting myself? Not at all. My stuff is all one hundred percent done by hand in photoshop.



Of course. lol. Like I mentioned... this isn't anything like your stuff. I could photoshop the flames too.... but you already have that market and I don't have the time. PS flames take a lot of patience!

Didn't mean to sound rude.

[Master's Touch]

and Aurora has the market cornered on what you're doing....maybe you could extract a few flames over and over, layering one type of fire on top of another and call it good and sell it and people would believe and buy!!! Nah, that'd never work....
;)

(No offense taken flamey....) :)

[Flame]

and Aurora has the market cornered on what you're doing....maybe you could extract a few flames over and over, layering one type of fire on top of another and call it good and sell it and people would believe and buy!!! Nah, that'd never work....
;)

(No offense taken flamey....) :)



Whoah now, take 'er easy cowboy. I'm not out to hurt anybody. Thought stuff like what I'm offering could come in handy to people.

:peace!:

[Day Sign Co]

Handy to someone who doesen't have a digital camera, or someone who doesen't have Photoshop?

[Flame]

Handy to someone who doesen't have a digital camera, or someone who doesen't have Photoshop?


Refer to post #13.

Yes, you could draw them yourself in PS, take a picture, etc. Heck, anything Fred sells for clipart, I could make myself. But by having it already to go, no work involved... it saves time, and makes you money.

For example. A clipart of a horse. It might take... oh, 15-20 minutes to draw a nice horse jumping over a fence or something. But in 1 minute you could have a ready-to-go clipart of it. Time is money. Thus why all clipart and stock photography sites exist.

That's my philosophy anyways.

[Day Sign Co]

You are blogging with people here that have allready been there. Most artist's would not consider anything that is not original, and would not be proud of their work if they took shortcuts to achieve effects someone did for them. At the end of the day, you get more satisfication at stepping back and looking at your work and thinking, I earned my work & DESERVE to benifit from it with a feeling of accomplishment. If you can't feel it , you are not getting the benifit need to continue when that feeling doesen't come to you.

[Flame]

You are blogging with people here that have allready been there. Most artist's would not consider anything that is not original, and would not be proud of their work if they took shortcuts to achieve effects someone did for them. At the end of the day, you get more satisfication at stepping back and looking at your work and thinking, I earned my work & DESERVE to benifit from it with a feeling of accomplishment. If you can't feel it , you are not getting the benifit need to continue when that feeling doesen't come to you.


So you've never bought clipart or went to istock? Lots of shops spends thousands every year on this stuff, because it improves production and translates into.... profits.

I'm not copying anyone's work BTW. Hope it didn't sound like I am.

[Day Sign Co]

Well FLAMEY, No I've never been to istockphoto, Yes I have used elements of clipart, Don't feel up to par about posting pictures of work done with em. I would hvae a lot of traveling to do if I were to take photos of my work. Show some of your work and you may be you will be able to sell something. I'm not bashing you, you young guys are helping to keep the trade alive(hopefully) Reproducing graphics is not a good way to keep it alive & kickin

[ahollow]

Too Late!

http://www.digitaljuice.com/products/products.asp?pid=342

[Shovelhead]

isn't the market saturated with this stuff yet?....I liked it for about an hour.

[speedmedia]

Personally the more and more of these cd's filled with clipart, fills, goofy shapes and what not I get sick. All this is doing is opening up a market for the non skilled people to open up a shop and put out wraps and other designs that have so much crap and fills and chrome bevels on them without having to know how to do them correctly or knowing when to use them. I have seen so many wrap like this around my area I laugh everytime.

I know not everyone can be a good designer but practice helps you develop the proper skills needed.

Doesn't anyone want to learn this stuff anymore or just have all the designs handed to them that they can print and plot on a vehicle. Everytime I get the Aurora catalog I get sick to my stomach and wonder do people use some of these really???

Just my 2 cents not meant to offend anyone I just wonder everytime I see it.

Thanks,
Kurt Dietrich
Speed Media

[3dsignco]

http://www.digitaljuice.com/products/products.asp?pid=342&tab=t3#tabs

$14.95 for layered PSD.