Help for a newbie with lots of questions! [Archive]

shoprat

07-04-2006, 09:04 PM

OldPaint

07-04-2006, 09:26 PM

shoprat

07-04-2006, 11:23 PM

not to be harsh on you....but my question is ....why are you into this before you have the knowledge to proceed?
now i know youre askin HOW DO I....but some parts of this business require some COMPUTER SKILLS proir to working with a cutter. what you are trying to do..is a lot of work(A JPEG to line art) and you need a lot of other program knowledge other then COREL. THAT SAID.....i think youre best move for this job would be to CALL THE VECTOR DOCTOR..... as for learning corel i havent seen any videos.........requires a lot of "HANDS ON COREL" and reading.....to get really good with corel.....i got 13 years of workin corle....AND STILL DONT KNOW ALOT.....last question YES.....

Well I am not really into this as in I have a customer waiting I was trying to learn what my program can do. I do have other computer knowledge and I do prefer to learn hands on. I was under the impression from what I have read searching around on here that corel can trace pretty well so I thought that I could start with some kind of outline from there. I know I am a newb and all, but How do you suggest I learn???

williamson design

07-04-2006, 11:43 PM

If you are looking to learn Corel via a teaching tool, I suggest going to your local library and seeing what they have for tutorials either on VHS or DVD. Our library out here carries some stuff in that subject.

Or you can try these:

http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Corel3/Section/Display&sid=1047024315119&gid=1047024331836&cid=1047024331882

http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modListing.asp?vid=68

Most of the online tutorials cost money

Then there is the hands on method, it just takes time to learn some stuff.

Glen

njsigns

07-05-2006, 12:00 AM

I've used these video tutorials (http://cgi.ebay.com/Mastering-Corel-Draw-12-Tutorial-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ290003148560QQihZ019QQcategoryZ80312Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) and they are worth every penny:

Also might want to take a look at these (http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modPage.asp?ID=75)

Both have been very helpful for me.

Gene

iSign

07-05-2006, 12:07 AM

...How do you suggest I learn???

get a job at a sign shop would be my suggestion.

...too many people buy a cheap set-up & want to start making signs, but most of the knowledgable & successful sign professionals here have years, if not decades in this trade. Yes we all started as newbies & had to learn somewhere... so some of the younger crew think it's disrespectful to speak so much as a discouraging word to newbies... but buying the tools is far from paying your dues... & you need a lot more then you can get from a bulletin board.

Show us what you know & we'll offer constructive criticism... but if people come online & show us they don't know much of anything yet... well, in my opinion, they are asking to have that fact critiqued... so there you go.

This industry is probably loaded with professionals willing to train AND pay for you to make signs for their business... but this industry is also overloaded with newbies with plotters trying to skip a few years & jump to the front of the line trying to sell a job they haven't learned how to do yet.

Now, of course, we'll get cocky newbies (not you) chiming in how they think the "old farts" are just scared of losing work :rolleyes: ...not on your life... the work is out there, but it is a shame that garage hacks are offering substandard product at ridiculously low prices... then when the sign sucks or falls apart... the clients forget about going back to the hacks... but the don't seem to forget the new impression they end up with regarding how cheap signs should be.

Cadmn

07-05-2006, 01:09 AM

WOW Doug excellent explanation to whats happening in the industry.

MVIP

07-05-2006, 01:25 AM

"but How do you suggest I learn???"

Shoprat,

What you are trying to do is convert a picture into a cuttable image. Although you may have prior experience with computers, most people aren't aware of what it takes to convert a file for use in sign making.

The first thing you need to understand and learn is that you need to convert these files into vectors. Vectors are simply lines that the plotter recognizes and can cut. These can be .eps or.ai files. I don't personally use corel for this, but I do know that corel trace is capable of this. You will spend many frustrating hours trying to perfect this step. There are people out there who will do this for a fee. I myself have used some of these services when just getting started.

As far as how you can learn. I would suggest you go to tradeshows, attend seminars and subscribe to trade magazines.

I myself started in this business @ 9 years ago as a "newbie". Part of my success was never taking a job I wasn't sure I could handle, Always using the highest quality materials and spend a lot of time learning pricing.

Keep the faith! You can get do this.

When i started a local sign shop made the comment to one of my subs
"This kid bought a computer and thinks he's a sign shop!"

Well I do a lot of work for this shop now since they don't have a printer or CNC machine. I keep my focus on upgrading my equipment and learning new techniques.

This isn't meant to discredit the industry veterans, as they have forgotten more than I presently know. Just offering a different perspective on people who are self taught in this industry. We are not all cocky kids. Some of us are the future of this industry.

-matt

shoprat

07-05-2006, 02:26 AM

Thank you guys very much for answering my questions!!:U Rock: I know I have tons to learn with corel and I dont expect to learn it overnight. I just want a good place to start. I am currently looking for a second job working for a sign shop but its tough to find one while I keep my day job to pay the bills. Thanks again for the info from everyone you can bet I will be on here every spare minute I have soaking up the info you guys post on here!

mtmdesigns

07-05-2006, 03:28 AM

get flexi sign!!!!

andy

07-05-2006, 07:22 AM

Doug- that explanation of your's is spot on :)

If the emperor has no clothes we should say so- especially in our capacity as old farts LOL

signage

07-05-2006, 08:25 AM

Shoprat I suggest doing a search in this forum on corel and you will find the info you are looking for.

Rod

07-05-2006, 10:02 AM

Hey guys great site you have here!! Well right down to business, I am very new to this whole sign making thing and I am trying to figure out Corel 12. I have a clip art that I would like to cut but I have only been able to plot outlined letters and shapes. I know the fact that the clip art had so many intracacies (sp?) doesnt help, but how do I fix it so I can have it cut out on vinyl?

Also can anyone recomend a good teaching movie for corel 12?

Another question is it possible to print on vinyl then cut it out all at once? If so how??

Doug really described the situation accurately and succinctly. Pricing is an ongoing source of frustration because customers have difficulty comprehending the level of expertise and talent that goes into fabricating a quality piece of signage. So not only are you obligated to stand by the quality of your work, you need to determine what is a fair and competitive pricing scheme.

With respect to training videos, there is a library of SignLab videos of immediate interest to you. Your SignLab is a little dated, though the videos will be useful to you, nonetheless. CADlink provides InfoSource training videos here:

http://www.cadlink.com/infoSource/index.php

There are different categories of videos available. In the main SignLab category, take a look at the Tracing with PrismScan video, which should help you understand the concept of creating line art from a bitmap image.

Cheers,

Rod at CADlink

SignManiac

07-05-2006, 10:20 AM

Another option for you to consider. Take out a $5,000 business loan, tax deductible educational seminar, and give it to me. I'll let you pay for the privilege of working for me for one month. By the end of that month you will know more about this industry than you can learn on your own in five years on your own. This is a serious suggestion. The mistakes you will make on your own with costs you far more than that.

Gino

07-05-2006, 10:41 AM

Yowsa man...

Doug, you really hit the nail on the head. I don’t think in that explanation, anyone could be upset. I like it and vote for it to go into the ‘Newbie Column’. Maybe even start a ‘Hall of Fame’ thread with that one.

:thumb:

JWILLIS

07-05-2006, 10:51 AM

Sign M does this mean if i give you 20,000 dollars You can teach me more in 4 months than I Can learn by myself in 20 Years....

Im Impressed Checks in the mail....ha ha ha

SignManiac

07-05-2006, 10:59 AM

Probably so...

Flame

07-05-2006, 11:51 AM

Okay, Maniac. I kinda doubt anyone is going to take you up on your offer. Sorry to say it, but a person can learn a lot in 5 years of working if they really try hard. Not saying working under someone knowledgeable won't help out, it will, and a lot. Just not QUITE like you posted.:Big Laugh

And MTM, come on. This guy has CorelDraw and a PC600. He probably doesn't want to spend more on a new program than he has in his current program AND plotter. Especially when it won't even help him at this point in business considering he already has Corel and can already cut.

And shoprat, check out ebay. You can find un-opened packages of instructional DVD's that are very useful (and note all you anti-ebayers, UN-OPENED, UN-PIRATED). Also, the library is another great place to check out. That's what I did when I was trying to learn Corel.

And yes you can print and cut images, but you need the proper equipment for the job. Unless you want to dump a LOT of money into the business right now, just be happy with the setup you have now.:cool:

mtmdesigns

07-05-2006, 12:18 PM

my apologies i must have been a little tipsy..

Cadmn

07-05-2006, 12:49 PM

shoprat sit down with Corel & start using the trace & lots & lots of practice as with any skill or trade practice becomes very important you have the equipment & programs you need for now. signs is an artistic trade & just like a portrait painter they practice for years to be able to paint correctly so why people tought our industry as get rich quick is an excellent question there is NO EASY BUTTON. & YES IT IS PROBABLY HARD TO FIND a part time sign Job as most are looking for experienced & complete sign people because many like some of the franchises here the owner had the money for the franchise upwards of $100,000but he knew nothing about signs. so his first need was someone that could do the work. he wanted to pay minimum wage for expert knowledge Again bringing the wages down for the industry. just saw a television ad for a local "college" stateing they can make you a graphic designer even if you have no art ability ???
& In this area graphic designers are being put on the street & the wages are going down as supply of "designers" exceeds Job needs so minimum wage is accepted to be able to work as a "designer"professional digitising for embroidery is a field being given to India for pennies on the dollar what used to cost 70-80 to get done you can now get done overnight by companies inindia for 15-20they are trying to increase the minimum wage here in America but allow soo much use of foreign labor & less rules for foreign imports. dont go political on me as I did not post this to go political.

Derf

07-05-2006, 01:12 PM

This site should help you out---> http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modListing.asp?pid=32

Good luck

shoprat

07-05-2006, 10:50 PM

And yes you can print and cut images, but you need the proper equipment for the job.

Can you elaborate? If I wanted to do this what would I need?

Jackpine

07-05-2006, 10:56 PM

You can design in Corel ..... add a cutcontour line......export as esp rgb bitmap and print and cut in the RCC rip. I did that for 3 1/2 years. When the printer is right you will get very good print that are 3 to 5 year durable. Learn and use what you have and you can make money. It is a good printer for smallish decals. You can use it for value added graphics for your signs.

Flame

07-06-2006, 12:03 AM

Can you elaborate? If I wanted to do this what would I need?

IMO you would want to buy a solventjet printer. Either full solvent or eco-solvent will work, but personally I like the eco-sol inks. No fumes. They pretty much start at $12,000. The cheapest ones out there are the smaller Mutoh's and the Roland Versacamm's. I would suggest making sure you have the business before buying one of these babies. And expect a couple months to try to figure the machine out once you get it.

signsbydale

07-06-2006, 12:17 AM

Not all clipart has to be traced. If it is a .wmf it is most likely to be in linear form. All you have to do is ungroup it and seperate out the shapes you want to cut and delete some of the layers of shading and other extra stuff.

GB2

07-06-2006, 12:38 AM

You know...I'm sorry but I think we should be a little more selective about which inquiries we overwhelmingly respond to. There are many many individuals here that I have tremendous respect for but it never ceases to amaze me how sometimes people go way over and above trying to be helpful to "garage hacks" or totally clueless persons that appear and disappear from here. I think we should raise the bar a little and maintain a higher level of professionalism....sorry.

shoprat

07-06-2006, 01:30 AM

we should be a little more selective about the inquiries we overwhelmingly respond to

Ummm then dont post in the thread buddy and let it go to the bottom to die...

garage hacks

Wow are you quick to judge from one post asking for help learning??? Let me guess you were born with devine knowledge and an expert at sign making? Like I said dont like the thread for whatever reason DONT POST.

sorry to rant there but there is allways one person on every board that feels the need to belittle beginers rather than offer to help like everyone else has shown in this post.

To everyone that offered up advice I will be putting it to good use!:thankyou:

OldPaint

07-06-2006, 02:31 AM

Can you elaborate? If I wanted to do this what would I need? YOU TYPED THIS AFTER YOU TYPED THIS: BTW Another question is it possible to print on vinyl then cut it out all at once? If so how??
I am plotting with a roland PC600"
FROM THE ROLAND WEB SITE:
Announcing Roland's Fourth Generation Thermal Transfer Printer/Cutter!
The new ColorCamm Pro adds highend 1200 dpi printing to an all in one 24" wide printer/cutter system. With many advanced features such as a multi-platform RIP included, fast printing and ribbon saver feature the PC-600 appears to have it all!
The PC-600 is ideal for signmakers, graphic designers, screenprinters or anyone wanting to start or expand their business with short-run stickers, posters, signs and P.O.P creations as well as labels and heat transfers for garments.
NOW....HERES MOST OF OUR PROBLEM....do you know what you can do with that piece of equipment? and by youre questions....either you havnt a clue....or youre just messin with us........that why we get a little testy with some newbies here.....if you got a PC 600..YOU CAN PIRNT AND CUT....READ YOURE MANUAL!!!
OR PAY SOMEONE TO TEACH YOU HOW TO USE IT!!!!!!
we can only do so much here........or when you get ready to sell i get 1st shot.....$500.....

Cadmn

07-06-2006, 04:11 AM

GB2 if you took time to look through posts I think you would find that the owner has taken great pain to some of the senior members down. at least shoprat filled out his location as being other than just earth.

iSign

07-06-2006, 06:03 AM

wow...was afraid I'd have drawn a lot of heat on this one. Glad I didn't.
Shoprat, you're gonna make it! You got thick skin & a good attitude. Welcome!
Bob, can I work for you for $5K? That is a decent offer. Based on what I've seen of your work, & your business sense, even I could justify that investment! If I didn't have too many irons in the fire that can't be left... I'd consider it!

andy

07-06-2006, 06:20 AM

"sorry to rant there but there is allways one person on every board that feels the need to belittle beginers rather than offer to help like everyone else has shown in this post."

And there are always newbies who march in looking for short cuts and detailed information on how to do this or that not recognising that buying equipment is easy- so easy anyone can do it- the know how is the valuable part of the equation- a cheap cutter really hasn't got that much resale value.

GB2 learnt how to manufacture what he sells- how do you think he managed that? Hard work, late nights and a shed load of wasted material is the norm.

You might feel you are being put down but you need to look at this from a wider perspective- the sign industry world wide is full of folks who have bought a cheap vinyl cutter and dived right on it. Nothing wrong with competition BUT what is happening is prices are falling to the level where no one really benefits.

This is a skilled occupation like any other trade- it can't be learnt on the cheap or off the internet. If you look through past threads you will see the majority opinion is to go work for someone who knows what they are doing- it's called being an apprentice and it works great.

The questions you are asking can be solved pretty easy by reading and understanding the manuals that came with your equipment.

Corel, Flexisign and the others are complicated packages that take a long time to learn and there is no short cut.

Business is like nature- the evolution theory- those who can't do things don't survive, those who can evolve their businesses into bigger, improved versions. The weakest always go to the wall.

If you want to be a sign maker then the learning curve is long and step- have you got what it takes? Only time will tell:brittain:

shoprat

07-06-2006, 09:15 PM

And there are always newbies who march in looking for short cuts and detailed information on how to do this or that not recognising that buying equipment is easy- so easy anyone can do it- the know how is the valuable part of the equation- a cheap cutter really hasn't got that much resale value.

Hey I didnt expect learning to be easy I was just looking for some direction to where to learn. As for manuals I bought the equipment second hand so I dont know that I got all of them but the one I do have is very vauge and only shows set up of the plotter.

You might feel you are being put down but you need to look at this from a wider perspective- the sign industry world wide is full of folks who have bought a cheap vinyl cutter and dived right on it. Nothing wrong with competition BUT what is happening is prices are falling to the level where no one really benefits.

So you think a pc600 is a cheap peice of equipment?? Ummm I know there are alot more expensive machines out there but to start out with?

or when you get ready to sell i get 1st shot.....$500.....

:Big Laugh :Big Laugh :Big Laugh add another zero there buddy!

iSign

07-06-2006, 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPaint
or when you get ready to sell i get 1st shot.....$500.....

add another zero there buddy!

$50.00!

Pro Signs & Graphix

07-06-2006, 10:51 PM

Shoprat,
This site is very far from being "against newbies". What you will find is that many, if not most, will be extremely helpful BUT will not sugar-coat anything. There is very good reason for this. Everyday 200 people get into the business of making signs and 199 get out of it. It is NOT for the faint-hearted. We all hate seeing people "quit", although it would be better for profits.

As Doug states, it takes "thick skin" to be in business - any business. This does not include the countless hours of "free" time that you must devote to learning, and the dumpsters full of wasted material. Also, as Doug states, you are most likely gonna make it - because of the "thick skin", and the fact that you did not turn and run away.

As Andy states, there are absolutely no shortcuts, and even as your knowledge expands - there is always that much more to learn.

For the Roland, check their website for a pdf manual. If not, call them or email them, they will get one to you. As for the Corel, try and start with a book from Sams Publishing. Their books are not very intense with all of the "tricks" but they are very good at showing the majority of what you will need to know - as the rest comes with daily practice.

Now that all of that is out of the way - how much do you really want for the PC-600? We all know that Doug and OP are not serious when they offer such huge amounts :biggrin: :Big Laugh

Lastly, one piece of advice - DO NOT SELL ON PRICE - that is the quickest and shortest route to failure, or at least hard times.

Keep plugging, posting, and trying!

OldPaint

07-07-2006, 12:37 AM

shoprat

07-07-2006, 01:25 AM

So you think a pc600 is a cheap peice of equipment?? Ummm I know there are alot more expensive machines out there but to start out with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPaint
or when you get ready to sell i get 1st shot.....$500.....

add another zero there buddy!
THEY SAW YOU COMIN......all i can say...youre reply just adds to the already "dont got a clue" "tude" you have...
ITS A PC-600 you had to know what you was buyin........
BEFORE YOU LAID DOWN THE $5000 or are you that numb...to give somebody $5000 and not have a clue...AS TO WHAT YOU JUST BOUGHT????
ok $750.00

Hey I know at this point I have tons to learn and I know almost nothing about my equipment. I did get a very good deal on the pc600 ( agood amount less than 5 g's) though and I figured it would be a good investment that I can grow into and it was a large enough amount it would keep me serious about what I am doing.

OldPaint

07-07-2006, 01:47 AM

Hey I know at this point I have tons to learn and I know almost nothing about my equipment. I did get a very good deal on the pc600 ( agood amount less than 5 g's) though and I figured it would be a good investment that I can grow into and it was a large enough amount it would keep me serious about what I am doing.
now this is the 1st thing you have said that makes sence....
and i commend you on that...
now you need to GET THE BOOK for that pices of equipment, see if you got somelocal who can give you a short hands course on how to set it up and make it work....then your on youre way..till then not much we can do for you.......till you get some BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF THAT EQUIPMENT....

Cadmn

07-07-2006, 01:50 AM

If you were real serious you would know about it from researching before you bought.

njsigns

07-07-2006, 04:40 PM

I too thought I did my research before buying my PC-12 like 2 years ago (wish I found this site before I made that purchase). Now I have too much invested in it, and found it wasn't necessarily the best bang for my buck. I have no choice now other than making it work for me, as it would be a total wash or even worse a loss if I were to sell it. If you're serious about using CorelDraw I would scroll back up and look at the links I provided earlier. They have been invaluable to me, and I'm sure they will help you as well. As far as the user manual for the PC-600:

http://www.rolanddga.com/rnet30/files/support/pc600_user_manual.pdf

The main problem I have with my Roland right now is color calibration, which I need to start a thread on ASAP! Other than that, I find working with CorelDraw and the Roland to be quite natural. Good luck!

Gene

andy

07-07-2006, 04:56 PM

Luckily I had an old ALPS printer for a while so when I saw the specs for the new PC printers from Roland I saw what a dud the machine was.

The alps was an A4 printer using the exact same cartridge system- pile of junk stuggled to print and A4 page without going nuts or a ribbon break.

I know a lot of people rate roland but I think they were pretty un professional foisting such a cr@p system on the sign trade.

I know a guy who's got onw and he keeps offering to sell it to me- the only way I'd have it is if he paid me to take it away.

The machine was basically trying to be a cheap edge and failed miserably.

Flame

07-07-2006, 07:00 PM

So Andy, are you saying you don't like Roland, or you love Roland? I'm Soooooo confused.

andy

07-07-2006, 08:15 PM

Me... I ain't the world's number one Roland fan I have to say. If I had to buy a new cutter today it'd be a Summa or a Vytek (if they still make them).

You gotta admit the whole colour camm thing was poorly thought out and badly executed- all that pulling an pushing to lay down the colours was going to end in tears. I was gutted at the time as I thought it would have been a nice little machine to have- until the interior shot of those evil cartridges appeared on page 2 of the brochure. Roland were hardly giving the machine away either- for proper money you would expect a proper bit of kit- from memory they were about 6 grand sterling.

I got stung by another manufacturer who sold me two complete piles of junk- I was doing most of their R&D at one point LOL. Hence my phobia of the words "digital" and "printing" :) Never again.

Roland pinched or bought the ribbon idea from Citizen/ Alps- if they had ever bothered to try printing with a citizen/ alps printer they would have figured out it wasn't much cop as an idea. To my knowledge their whole ribbon technology has been abandoned.

njsigns

07-07-2006, 09:13 PM

Luckily I had an old ALPS printer for a while so when I saw the specs for the new PC printers from Roland I saw what a dud the machine was.

I would, based on my own personal experience, have to disagree. I too have been using Alps printers, for many years now, and have had great results with them. So naturally, for me, when I saw technology I was familiar and comfortable with in the PC-12, I made a purchase (and believe me it was after considerable deliberation). I would have rather have purchased a VersaCamm, it simply wasn't in my budget.

I agree the PC-12 was probably trying to be a poor mans Edge. Honestly I researched for a few years to find a "better solution" than I had. Being a very satisfied owner of another Roland (a 15" Stika at the time) I felt comfortable buying.

Before finding this forum, I didn't even know that the Gerber Edge had existed. Maybe my research had failed me, but I still own a Roland GX-24, a PC-12 and 3 Alps printers 2 MD-5000's and an old MD-1000. Most of what I had been doing until 2-3 years ago was smaller stickers and transfers for t-shirts and mousepads etc.

Do I wish I could trade them all in for a 30" VersaCamm? You betcha! But I have yet to find anyone willing to bite on that offer. :smile:

Until I can logically afford a wide format digital printer, I guess I just gotta keep doing what I've been doing. It's worked for me thus far.

Gene