ADA signs, directories, room identification signs...

[Moze]

This was another time-crunch job (aren't they all?).

Approximately 250 various signs had to be installed over a period of about four days. Again, Precision Sign Services is just me, so I had my work cut out for me. The entire job took just under a week due to shipping issues. I wound up having to drive from Dallas to Kansas to pick the signs up, then to the Memphis area to install them in time for the inspection, then drive back to Dallas.

All in all, it turned out pretty good. Everything got installed on time and passed inspection. I think I breathed in before I left the house and didn't exhale until I got in the truck to drive back home.

 

[CanuckSigns]

Very nice looking signs!

is that corian?

 

[Moze]

Thank you! And yes, Corian. The only thing I didn't care for was that the corners on the new directories were mitered to save on material, whereas the existing directories were cut from a solid piece. Customer spec though, so it is what it is.

 

[Rick]

Probably a good thing the inspector did not have a spectrophotomater... those ADA signs are probably not 70% contrast...

 

[Moze]

I'm absolutely not an expert on ADA requirements, but I thought the 70% contrast was a recommendation, not a requirement...?

Regardless...I can't imagine having to remove 200+ signs due to contrast issues. That would make for a bad day.

 

[Gino]

The contrast is one of the key ingredients behind ADA... not a recommendation. Whoever speced them out would be first liable. Next would be the inspector that allowed them. Next, they would have to be removed and replaced regardless of two signs or two hundred. In reality, two hundred wrong signs is 100 times worse than 2 wrong sings.

These signs are required for people with blindness or near blind circumstances. Color contrast plays a large part for someone that can't see very well as to where to look for directions. These signs are for those people, not the people who have normal vision. Sure, color combinations are nice, but have no bearing on ADA rulings.

Color coordinated and pleasantly arranged need to meet ADA requirements first. Aesthetics comes further down the list.

 

[Rick]

I'm absolutely not an expert on ADA requirements, but I thought the 70% contrast was a recommendation, not a requirement...?

Regardless...I can't imagine having to remove 200+ signs due to contrast issues. That would make for a bad day.

A not so long time ago, environmental graphic designers and architects used to use the term "spirit of the law" or as you would call, a "recommendation". When issues of compliancy come up, it's never signs that are the issue, but in a lawsuit, signage will get thrown in there and in court, in court, recommendation turns into compliancy.

Depending on the State. Most states have folded ADA into their building code so it's no longer a "recommendation" but the law.

In California, we have our building code called Title 24... you can be fined up to 10,000 for each violation of the code. We also have Title 19, the State fire code which has elements of ADA in it, then for hospitals, emergency room facilities and some critical care facilities, we have OSHPD, which specifically addresses ADA into a stricter building code.

Starting March 15, 2012, it will be the law.

I have not taken signs down for ADA, but have worked on 3 very large projects because the previous architect/design firm/sign company put up non compliant ADA signs and they had to take them down.

 

[Moze]

The contrast is one of the key ingredients behind ADA... not a recommendation. Whoever speced them out would be first liable. Next would be the inspector that allowed them. Next, they would have to be removed and replaced regardless of two signs or two hundred. In reality, two hundred wrong signs is 100 times worse than 2 wrong sings.

These signs are required for people with blindness or near blind circumstances. Color contrast plays a large part for someone that can't see very well as to where to look for directions. These signs are for those people, not the people who have normal vision. Sure, color combinations are nice, but have no bearing on ADA rulings.

Color coordinated and pleasantly arranged need to meet ADA requirements first. Aesthetics comes further down the list.

Understood and I agree 100%. I perform installations for other sign companies, so I don't spec anything personally. But I realize that doesn't release me from responsibility. They give me the signs and floor plans and I go install them. If I'm aware of a glaring error though, I'll obviously address it...I certainly don't want to install anything twice due to something like contrast, etc.

All of that being said, which part(s) specifically don't appear to have the 70% contrast? I'm curious now.

A not so long time ago, environmental graphic designers and architects used to use the term "spirit of the law" or as you would call, a "recommendation". When issues of compliancy come up, it's never signs that are the issue, but in a lawsuit, signage will get thrown in there and in court, in court, recommendation turns into compliancy.

Depending on the State. Most states have folded ADA into their building code so it's no longer a "recommendation" but the law.

In California, we have our building code called Title 24... you can be fined up to 10,000 for each violation of the code. We also have Title 19, the State fire code which has elements of ADA in it, then for hospitals, emergency room facilities and some critical care facilities, we have OSHPD, which specifically addresses ADA into a stricter building code.

Starting March 15, 2012, it will be the law.

I have not taken signs down for ADA, but have worked on 3 very large projects because the previous architect/design firm/sign company put up non compliant ADA signs and they had to take them down.

Interesting. As mentioned above, I don't approach these jobs as if I have no accountability, but I am glad that the entities I'm doing the work for are ultimately responsible for addressing and providing the specs.

I believe the Corian is 'Raffia', if that helps clarify the color/contrast issue any.

 

[Rick]

All of that being said, which part(s) specifically don't appear to have the 70% contrast? I'm curious now.

The room ID's and "stairs exit" sign...

 

[Moze]

Those in the pictures look darker to me than they actually are. I'll look for some pictures that show the coloring better...

 

[J Hill Designs]

I wouldnt worry about it - if it gets redflagged, its another job for you

 

[Moze]

The attached might show the true color better. Anyway, I'm 99% sure it's Corian 'Raffia' which I believe is one of the most popular colors for sign programs like this.

I wouldnt worry about it - if it gets redflagged, its another job for you

Get out of my head.

I can't say that same thought didn't already cross my mind.

 

[Gino]

The raised black letters and pictures look to be black at 100% while the brown in the background is around 50% or 60% dark. Only a 40% difference. It looks fine to a normal seeing person, but not to someone who is walking around with 400 vision which is legally blind, but can still see shadows and blurry images.

I know, my mother-in-law was 400 in each eye. She couldn't read braille, so she had to rely on either us while taking her.... or her own poor eyesight, which would never have seen your color scheme.

I'm not sure if the braille has to be contrasting. I don't think so. That's one which would be a recommendation.... as a totally blind person won't see it in the first place. They rely on touch.

 

[Moze]

The raised black letters and pictures look to be black at 100% while the brown in the background is around 50% or 60% dark. Only a 40% difference. It looks fine to a normal seeing person, but not to someone who is walking around with 400 vision which is legally blind, but can still see shadows and blurry images.

I know, my mother-in-law was 400 in each eye. She couldn't read braille, so she had to rely on either us while taking her.... or her own poor eyesight, which would never have seen your color scheme.

I'm not sure if the braille has to be contrasting. I don't think so. That's one which would be a recommendation.... as a totally blind person won't see it in the first place. They rely on touch.

I definitely understand where you're coming from.

I guess all I can say is I didn't create the color scheme. The company that did has been doing this since the early 80's and their primary customer base is hospitals.

Also, colors can look very different from one computer to the next. If you Google 'Corian Raffia' the resulting images almost all look different.

If braille isn't required to be contrasting (I agree - I don't think it is), I wouldn't be surprised if someday soon it was. Not only to help those with poor vision, but also due to potential lawsuits.

 

[Rick]

The raised black letters and pictures look to be black at 100% while the brown in the background is around 50% or 60% dark. Only a 40% difference. It looks fine to a normal seeing person, but not to someone who is walking around with 400 vision which is legally blind, but can still see shadows and blurry images.

I know, my mother-in-law was 400 in each eye. She couldn't read braille, so she had to rely on either us while taking her.... or her own poor eyesight, which would never have seen your color scheme.

I'm not sure if the braille has to be contrasting. I don't think so. That's one which would be a recommendation.... as a totally blind person won't see it in the first place. They rely on touch.

Braille does not need any contrast, but is required to be placed directly below the visual text so a blind person can find it.

Most people can not read braille at all, those that do read braille, very few blind people can read Grade 2 braille. Grade 1 is probably easier to read.

After working at an ADA shop where part of the job was translation, I see signs all the time that have bad braille translations, gibberish or say something completely different.

 

[Rick]

The LRV for Raffia is 47, so technically, these signs are non-compliant...

Now it's highly doubtful this is ever going to be an issue, but as a contractor (and consultant), it's always a good idea to cover your butt, but the biggest reason is, getting more work. Imagine having your clients back by bringing this up, or having the architects or designers back by letting them know... it's how I get better paying clients.

http://www2.dupont.com/Surfaces_Com...tins/K25281_Corian_LRV_Technical_Bulletin.pdf

 

[Moze]

Very helpful information. Thank you Rick and Gino.

I'll discuss it with the company that is handling the project and see what they say.

A side note: These new signs were installed in new wings of the hospital. The existing signs in the hospital are even darker than these....

 

[Gino]

I wouldnt worry about it - if it gets redflagged, its another job for you

The attached might show the true color better. Anyway, I'm 99% sure it's Corian 'Raffia' which I believe is one of the most popular colors for sign programs like this.



Get out of my head.

I can't say that same thought didn't already cross my mind.

If you had the signs made wrong, it will be a second job, but out of your own pocket, not theirs. You are the professional here..... and if you didn't warn them ahead of time, how is it their fault if they accepted a job THEY thought would pass ??

I'm a little surprised your supplier didn't red-flag you. Our supplier has always shoved their 2¢ in my face if we do the slightest thing wrong. I'm glad they do this, but it makes extra work because I have to re-design something.

Unless someone else designed these, you could be in for an eye-opener.
​

 

[J Hill Designs]

hes just a sub-contracted installer, gino

 

[Moze]

hes just a sub-contracted installer, gino

Correct. I tried to make that clear in my earlier posts but to also not come across as if I didn't care since I wasn't ultimately responsible for the design, color choices, etc. I do care and regardless of who might be at fault, I don't want to do any job incorrectly or do it twice.

Now if the company I was doing the work for told me to install them on the hinge side of the door and 12" away - I'd say something.