? clipart use in logo design ?

[imaSIGNr]

I think this may have been answered here before. I couldn't find the answer I wanted in the archives, but here is the scenario. Customer has a sign made, then later says I want to use that as my logo. The sign is a combination of clipart ( trees ) and text. Can I now charge them for a logo design and give them a disk w/ the sign components on it? I have changed the shape of the trees by distorting them. There are no brand names or corporate names involved here, just the trees that came from clipart, and there will probably be different trees from different clipart collections too.
Thanks in advance............
:

 

[imaSIGNr]

bump please....nobody ?...... Fred ?

 

[Rick]

This is tough because you do not show the image and the logo and many will interpret it different.

The other thing is what does your licensing say in your clip-art collection?

Basically it is, did you modify it enough to stand up to a side by side comparison? There is no such thing as a percentage change.. it is that you should not see the same image in a side by side. If it stands up to that test you "MAY" be okay.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Nearly all EULAs will prohibit what you are wanting to do. This is because it clouds both your client's intellectual property rights and those of the artist or publisher of the clipart. Clipart is pretty much always licensed on a non-exclusive basis and your client is basically wanting to call it his own.

On a practical basis, however, it happens everyday and it's doubtful you or your client will ever have a problem because of it. Just be sure to modify the image(s) substantially so they can't be placed side by side and be recognizable. Also make your client aware of what is being done.

We had a situation here locally where a night club and a restaurant about two miles away from each other had the same piece of clipart used on their pole signs. Lots of people thought they were owned by the same party and neither had the rights they thought they had paid for.

 

[threeputt]

Ok I'll take a shot at it.

Point A. Clip art is copyright free art (provided you've obtained it lawfully) so you can do anything you'd like with it. Distort it, change it, use elements of it, etc. It's like a font in that respect.

Point B. If the client is looking for original artwork to be used as a logo, he may be somewhat chagrined if he buys your logo and then sees that same piece of artwork being used for another service company. Say it's the trees. And he's an arborist. Then another tree service, nursery, landscape architect, whatever, has those same trees as a prominent part of their logo. Could be trouble.

Point C. If you're going to sell the layout as a logo (and charge a fee for it) then my opinion would be that if clipart elements are used, they should not be dominant, or simply used as provided. Distort them, cannibalize certain portions of them, etc. I think that a client has somewhat of an expectancy to be getting a logo that is unique to him.

Point D. All of the above does not necessarily apply to a sign layout. Everyone knows that clipart is just that...clipart. So if a pictorial of a paintbrush, for example, ends up on two or more painting contractor's vans in the same town, well....that's just the way it its. (we would never knowingly do that)

Point E. So, bottom line is... if your sign layout, which was never meant to be a logo, is such a hit with him that he wants to use it as his logo...then I say tell him that it's possible that certain elements of it might not be exclusive to him. Whether you then charge him for the layout is up to you. Surely, the layout, letter treatment, letter styling, etc. could be very original. This I sense, is one of those areas that can be improved by frank conversation with the client.​

 

[imaSIGNr]

Thanx for the replies.... The trees will be as a background and distorted from their original form and accompanied by other trees from other collections as I have said...
I have not done the sign yet, but as I have been discussing this with a new business owner. He was unaware of this . He assumed that if he had a sign made that he could use it as a logo if he desired and that beings he is paying for the sign that it should be his to do with as he pleases. I wanted to point this out to him before hand. I also tried to explain to him that there is a difference is price if I just make a sign or if he wants a file to have of his own that he can use for other things such as letterheads, promo ads ,other signs that he may want someone else to do, vehicle, truck lettering etc.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Point A. Clip art is copyright free art (provided you've obtained it lawfully) so you can do anything you'd like with it. Distort it, change it, use elements of it, etc. It's like a font in that respect.

I must differ with you on this. Clipart is almost never copyright free. It is quite often what is termed "royalty free" which means you are under no obligation to pay a royalty when you use any image within the terms of the license. But that does not mean it is yours to do with as you please with no attention given to complying with the licensing agreement. You license it and are thus granted permission to use it within the terms of the license. Those terms will normally contain limitations which will prohibit any use which would involve passing on any intellectual property rights.

 

[Rick]

To add to Fred's comment, a lot clip-art also does not allow use in a products like a t-shirt's that will sell in a retail situation, decals or even signage, some even limit the amount of impressions depending on it's use.

 

[jiarby]

he is paying for the sign that it should be his to do with as he pleases

Yes! He is paying FOR THE SIGN.. not the rights to use the art as he wishes...

I had the same issue recently with window decals that a customer wanted to have made into shirts.

The middleman sold them the shirts and was jobbing out the printing. Middle man call me and wants me to send them the file so they can get the shirts made. I balked. The said "I can pay the shirt guys to redraw it, so forget about it". I said... "well if you are willing to pay someone to draw the file, why aren't you willing to pay for the original"...

It didn't end well. The middleman may have also poisoned the original customer against me saying that I "wouldn't" give them "THEIR OWN" art.

People do not understand what they have rights to and what they don't.

We can all do a better job explaining the difference between buying a tangible object that we have done a layout for and buying the art.

 

[GoodPeopleFlags]

This sort of thing happens alot, I think. Think of it this way: Guy comes in and wants mags for his new landscaping business and asks if you can put some clipart of a lawnmower on it. No problem! A month later, he calls and asks if you will send that clipart over to his screenprinter (or business card guy, etc.). What do you do? It wasn't supposed to be a "logo" but it seems he's going to adopt it as such. You didn't design it so you can't charge for a logo design. But it bugs you to send it to someone else, even tho the customer can't get that particular service (cards, shirts, whatever) from you.

Here's what I say. Tell him that you'll be glad to sell him a CD with the image on it in several formats so he'll have it for future use. That way, you don't end up spending your time emailing it to someone else everytime he wants something new.

I don't know, tho. Can you sell a CD with the image on it?

 

[imaSIGNr]

This sort of thing happens alot, I think. Think of it this way: Guy comes in and wants mags for his new landscaping business and asks if you can put some clipart of a lawnmower on it. No problem! A month later, he calls and asks if you will send that clipart over to his screenprinter (or business card guy, etc.). What do you do? It wasn't supposed to be a "logo" but it seems he's going to adopt it as such. You didn't design it so you can't charge for a logo design. But it bugs you to send it to someone else, even tho the customer can't get that particular service (cards, shirts, whatever) from you.

Here's what I say. Tell him that you'll be glad to sell him a CD with the image on it in several formats so he'll have it for future use. That way, you don't end up spending your time emailing it to someone else everytime he wants something new.

I don't know, tho. Can you sell a CD with the image on it?

This is sort of my delima...Can I sell him a design that has part of that as a couple trees in it that are from clipart disks ( distorted/changed )that will now be copied onto a disk that is his logo that he can call his logo and do what ever else he wants with it ? Is this the same in essence as file sharing ?
I haven't met the guy yet, we have only talked on the phone and emailed. I am meeting with him tomorrow ( Thurs. )to settle this. I want to know what I am talking about.This guy sounds quite knowledgeable and I don't want to appear like a dunce.

 

[threeputt]

I'll yield to Fred on this. He's the guy. I can't honestly say I know as much as he because he's the creator of clipart and surely has researched this. I was simply operating under my assumptions, trying to be helpful.

But passing along ideas, even with the best of intentions is not always a good idea. Especially if you're wrong about a particular topic.

Good going guys, thanks for the setting things straight. I love this forum, means a lot to me.

 

[imaSIGNr]

Is there somewhere where a person might find this written ? So when I talk to this guy in a few hours I can have something that I can refer to to back up my claim ?

 

[signage]

imasignr check you clip art EULAs it should be written in it!

 

[Fred Weiss]

Is there somewhere where a person might find this written ? So when I talk to this guy in a few hours I can have something that I can refer to to back up my claim ?

You would have to read the EULA (End User License Agreement) for each collection or website to see their terms. Each is different.

Here is a link to the EULA for ExpressClipart.com. This is the actual term that applies to your situation that we use:

You may not claim a copyright or other intellectual property right on any works derived from or incorporating elements from the images regardless of the amount of modification made to the original artwork.

It is located fourth paragraph from the bottom in the Limitations and Prohibited Uses section.

Here is a link to the Clipart.com EULA. The pertinent term is stated in Paragraph F.- VI as follows:

Use the Image(s), or any part of the Image(s), as part of a trademark, service mark, or logo. JUPITERIMAGES or its licensors retain the full rights to the Image(s), and therefore you cannot establish your own rights.

 

[imaSIGNr]

So, the way I'm understanding it. If I make/compile a design that is derived from clip art, no matter how I have changed/sized/distorted it from clip art as even only a small part of a "wanna be "logo, this is not allowed ( legal ).
Does this also mean that nobody can even have a logo that is made from any part of clip art then ?
I see people all the time that have clip art as part of their logo. This is all done illegally then I'm guessing.
So I can only sell this customer a sign and he can not use the design as his logo. This is what I am hearing.
I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with this customer. Kinda sounding like I have to draw my own trees.
If he wants to take the design and use it as a logo, that's not my concern, but he will want me to furnish him with a file ......
Any suggestions how to deal with this ?
:

 

[threeputt]

Imasignr, I think you may be missing the point. Clients may use stuff you've made for them as a "logo" but THEY can't regard that logo as their exclusive property.

Doubt that it would ever happen, but if push came to shove, the originator's rights (ownership) trump those of the "users". (your client)

 

[Fred Weiss]

I think threeputt is getting to the bottom line. The reality is different from the legality. Legality splits hairs and gives you exact limitations for use. Reality is a broad brush that takes probabilities into account. The reality is that there is so much ignoring of license terms going on in this regard that no one is going around enforcing them.

If you read the example I gave in post #4, this is the real risk you face.

We had a situation here locally where a night club and a restaurant about two miles away from each other had the same piece of clipart used on their pole signs. Lots of people thought they were owned by the same party and neither had the rights they thought they had paid for.

The only way to proceed, IMHO, is to inform the customer of the potential problems he may face as well as to add appropriate charges for supplying him with your layout design to use as his logo.

 

[iSign]

I'd go in this sort of direction,,,

"I've licensed some artwork collections for use in sign design. I've incorporated some of this artwork for your sign. I'm not going to take on the responsibility of determining legal rights beyond the fact that I can use this art for sign design, & I would typically retain my original files for that reason.

If you want a logo, we charge around $500 for that, and would not use licensed artwork. If you want a CD with this sign layout on it, I can flatten it into one image file & burn it for you to be able to keep on file. The charges for my time to do this are $50, but I can not transfer any licensing rights to you. People frequently re-use my layouts on their website or letterhead without adverse consequences as far as I know, but I can not authorize that unless we go for an original logo design package."

 

[OldPaint]

doug this is something i did for a guy here. it is his LOGO NOW.
it is clipart...combined. corel i think, dont remember.