Coalescence Issue on HP 330 with Smooth Vinyl Wallcoverings

[derekw13029]

Hello all, I've been having an issue for several months now (yeah...I know) that involves *multiple rolls* of media from different manufacturers. The issue is coalescence in the blacks and other dark tones. For whatever reason, there is sporadic and seemingly random grain patterns showing in the ink. This has happened on two different roles of DreamScape Matte Vinyl, and now on one roll of York Bright White Smooth wallcovering.

I have tried everything I can think of. Running optimizer test plots and adjusting the optimizer level. Sometimes it looks like it's making a difference, then sometimes it looks like alligator skin. Like, exactly like alligator skin. I've adjusted the number of passes, trying everything from 8 to 20 passes, all with varying ink densities. I have switched the optimizer printhead, no change at all. I've ran substrate advance tests, everything is dead on. I've ran printhead checks, and that's where things get interesting.

If I test on the media I am having issues with, the printhead status plot fails miserably. Like, it's not even an issue of discontinuous lines, the lines are all a mess of various size drops of ink. The colored rectangles that are supposed to be nice and neat are just a collection of drops. There appears to be *very* little coalescence at all.

Yet if I run the same test on a different media (like ANY other media) the printhead status plot looks very good. Everything I have tested leads me to believe the issue is simply with those two media-types. They are different products, but they are very, very similar.

If I had to take a random guess, I would even go as far to say they may have the same coating, and the same coating process. This is where I think the problem lies.

What's bothering me about it is, though, I can run a successful test or two without any problems at all. But sometimes one single pass will be really, really bad. I cannot run a full print (this is wallcovering material, so there are going to be several 10' drops) with any kind of confidence that the issue will not come up.

To say the least, it is *extremely* aggravating, and I spent all day today trying to make sense of it. HP frankly is no help, although I understand that they really don't have any idea about actual product use.

I can provide pics if that will help, but basically it's just a coalescence issue. Every other media looks fine. Would a faulty printhead fail a test miserably (I mean....it's not even a functional test on the York material, the test is a blotchy mess), but yet be fine on another media? Would a faulty printhead be that sporadic? I would imagine once they go, they go.

Thanks for any and all help, this is driving me nuts! I like the product (especially the DreamScape Matte Vinyl, when it prints right, it looks very sharp with great density, saturation, color, and depth), but I just can't use it if I don't have any idea how it will respond to the printer.

 

[P Wagner]

It would probably help a great deal if you would post an image that illustrates the issue. Coalescence has been an issue with HP Latex inks, but much less with the 300 series versus the previous models. I have used several Dreamscape wallcovering medias, though not the one you are referencing here (Matte).

What pass count are you printing at on the Dreamscape media?

To respond to your question about printhead performance, you are correct, it is not related to media. A printhead is either good or bad regardless of the media that it is imaging onto. The exception to this is if one media is deforming in the print zone and causing head strikes, while another is not, that would be of course a media centric problem.

 

[derekw13029]

Okay, so you can see in those first two examples (and forgive me, these are all camera phone pics) the type of issue I am trying to describe. There are more severe examples than that, but honestly I tossed them all in the trash.

You can see in the printhead status plots that on another media (DreamScape Mystical) that the status plot printed fine. However, it's just a mess on the York Bright White and the Matte Vinyl. It may be related to ambient conditions. The humidity here in OK has been very high.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, I was originally using the DreamScape Suede profile (which has worked with all the DreamScape media), but I have altered all the settings at one point or another (and I only modified one setting at a time to at least attempt some control). I started with 12 passes, 100% ink density, then went up all the way to 20 passes. I tried dropping the ink density, increasing the ink density. I raised the optimizer level (because the optimizer test plot showed that increasing the level *may* have helped, but I think the stuff is just so far off that the tests aren't reliable). I increased the inter-pass delay. I ran a substrate advance test, it was dead on.

Everything I can think of with the printer itself has been done. I am now running a dehumidifier in the room where we keep our media. Maybe that will make a difference.

 

[P Wagner]

Yikes, those last two images look like a chemistry problem to me. The only time I've seen anything like that is from folks running 3rd-party inks (non OEM latex ink). From the images you are showing, it appears to be a chemistry (ink-media) issue with these medias. As I mentioned, I have run Several Dreamscape media products, including Plaster without seeing anything of this sort.

You're not running a 3rd-party inkset are you?

 

[derekw13029]

Yikes, those last two images look like a chemistry problem to me. The only time I've seen anything like that is from folks running 3rd-party inks (non OEM latex ink). From the images you are showing, it appears to be a chemistry (ink-media) issue with these medias. As I mentioned, I have run Several Dreamscape media products, including Plaster without seeing anything of this sort.

You're not running a 3rd-party inkset are you?

Nope, HP inks, hp printheads, hp everything.

I agree, we run a lot of Dreamscape stuff, but this Matte Vinyl (and the similar product York produces) are the only ones to give us any trouble. We've used the Pique, Mystical, Suede, Terralon, even the Bling without issue.

Like I said, the test are *so bad* I'm not even sure how to interpret them. Obviously the ink is just sitting on top of the media, the prints definitely don't look *that* bad. We are currently just substituting Suede until we can possibly get this issue resolved. HP is trying to make a profile for the York Bright White Smooth, but at this point I'm somewhat convinced it's an issue with the media itself, not the printer. But after checking and rechecking so many variables, and getting seemingly random results, I'm just not sure.

Every now and then (if you run enough test prints) it prints a 48'' x 12'' image perfect. But then most of the time I get an issue like posted above. When I try to run tests, they come out awful.

This has been an ongoing issue for a while now, we've went through multiple rolls with the same problem. But I also *know* we have successfully printed on this media before, doing large wallcoverings that came out nice. I'm just lost.

Thanks for the help! I appreciate it.

 

[tomasimattia]

print optmizer check quality in the system menu, i have a similar problems and i resolve with new printhead for optimizer

 

[P Wagner]

It almost appears that the media is covered by plasticizers or other contaminants. As a test, have you attempted to clean an area that prints poorly with a liberal amount of Isopropyl Alcohol and a non-shedding cloth? Other PVC media, most notably PVC banner contain these plasticizers that migrate to the surface and interfere with ink adhesion, perhaps that is what is happening in this case as well?

 

[derekw13029]

print optmizer check quality in the system menu, i have a similar problems and i resolve with new printhead for optimizer

Yeah, I tried that, and like I said the + row on the optimizer test plot *appeared* to be a little better, so I tried upping the level to 24%, ran a test print that still had the issue. Raised the optimizer level to 36%, still there. Raised the optimizer to 48%, then the ink began to look like alligator skin. Tomorrow is trash day, all my worst examples are in the trash because I was upset and just wanted to clean house after essentially a wasted day. I may dig out of the some bad prints, I may just let the garbage man come pick 'em up. But raising the optimizer unfortunately didn't solve the issue, but it did appear to have some affect on the size of the grain pattern. I did swap the Optimizer Printhead for good measure, didn't seem to help.

It almost appears that the media is covered by plasticizers or other contaminants. As a test, have you attempted to clean an area that prints poorly with a liberal amount of Isopropyl Alcohol and a non-shedding cloth? Other PVC media, most notably PVC banner contain these plasticizers that migrate to the surface and interfere with ink adhesion, perhaps that is what is happening in this case as well?

That's my next step. I am currently running a large mural on the Suede, that's going to be finished by about closing time, so I may try that tomorrow morning. That certainly seems possible, as the Matte Vinyl and York Bright White Smooth *feel* more plastic-y (nice descriptive term there....) than the other Dreamscape products.

Thanks again for all the replies!

 

[tomasimattia]

Sorry! optimizer must be on 18-22% by hp guide and best practise. I think you have a bad icc profile with too much ink... you have try with another icc profile? i have a latex 360 and i can create icc profilie with on board eye one.

 

[derekw13029]

Sorry! optimizer must be on 18-22% by hp guide and best practise. I think you have a bad icc profile with too much ink... you have try with another icc profile? i have a latex 360 and i can create icc profilie with on board eye one.

Yeah, I tried a couple different profiles. I tried using 3M IJ380 (or whatever it is) at the behest of an HP rep. I've used ink densities from 80 up to 120. I realized the optimizer levels are finicky, but I never felt like if I would have dialed it in it would have made that much of a difference. Maybe it would.

We have gotten busy around the shop, so I will have time to to more experimenting with it tomorrow or towards the end of the week. HP is trying to create a profile for us, so we'll see what they come up with.

 

[AF]

Build a custom profile that doesn't use optimizer and go from there.

 

[tomasimattia]

Optimizer must be use! try here https://ssl.www8.hp.com/us/en/campaigns/2013/ga/MediaLocator/home.html it's hp portal, you enter type of printer and type of material, for example i have print backligh vinyl and i search a backlight icc profile. For my experience go away from 3m profile... Avery and mactac works fine for me.

 

[dypinc]

Build a custom profile that doesn't use optimizer and go from there.

That is not a function of profile building. That is a media setting. Profile creation has no way of knowing what your optimizer is set to.