hp 700 vs epson r5070 yearly expenses and recommendations

[kagekitsune]

I have a small delema. I'm looking at these 2 printers for printing stickers, artwork and some fabric printing such as wall scrolls and canvases. I have a sales rep who seems to be really pushing the hp and trying to make me avoid epson. they have sent me samples of the hp and I'm getting samples from the epson later today but I'm skeptical if they did any lower quality setting printing on the epson to make the hp seem the better machine. I've done some scouring on the web and see a the hp aimed more for production prints and the epson more for quality. speed is not my priority and it's quality over anything else since my main use for raster artwork. my other concern is rip software. I know the epson has their own and is included but the sales rep says so does the hp with onyx but I see on some forums that it's a yearly subscription. finally I'd like to know what will I expect with ink and head replacement costs. I can see the ink on hp is less but it's 1L and I also have to get new heads after a while and those are pretty high in costs as well. epson is much more expensive on ink but they have 1.5L inks and their head is "rated" to last 2 years before replacement which leads me to believe that yearly costs on epson will be cheaper vs hp. can anyone please chime on this if they have either or both printers? real users pls no reps as I know they will want to tote their own wares as being better then the others.

 

[DChorbowski]

We have the HP700W now for over a year. My heads have lasted fairly long, I think I have replaced them totally once so far except for the white heads which i have replaced twice.
Each color has its own head so if you have a failure in one head you can just replace that head. I think the Epson has multiple colors or even all colors on one head so if one goes then you have to replace all at the same time? I am not 100% sure on this.
After coming from the solvent printer side of things, the cost of the HP latex heads are dirt cheap compared to solvent heads for printers like Seiko or Roland. Those also required a tech to install. The HP heads are user replaceable and can be done in less than 10 minutes.
The only major issue we have had with our HP is large graphics that require multiple overlapping panels. Sometimes the panels do not line up perfectly no matter what you do.
As far as the RIP our HP came with a 1yr subscription to ONYX, which we tried out but decided not to continue as Flexisign does everything we need it to do and is much more user friendly in my opinion and we were already on a subscription for that.
We print alot of prints that are to be backlit so the ability to print white in sandwich mode has been great for us. We also print alot of decals and labels and its good for that as well. As far as the quality, I have zero complaints with the HP Latex 700w.

If you have any other questions about the HP let me know and ill answer the best I can.

 

[kagekitsune]

others

We have the HP700W now for over a year. My heads have lasted fairly long, I think I have replaced them totally once so far except for the white heads which i have replaced twice.
Each color has its own head so if you have a failure in one head you can just replace that head. I think the Epson has multiple colors or even all colors on one head so if one goes then you have to replace all at the same time? I am not 100% sure on this.
After coming from the solvent printer side of things, the cost of the HP latex heads are dirt cheap compared to solvent heads for printers like Seiko or Roland. Those also required a tech to install. The HP heads are user replaceable and can be done in less than 10 minutes.
The only major issue we have had with our HP is large graphics that require multiple overlapping panels. Sometimes the panels do not line up perfectly no matter what you do.
As far as the RIP our HP came with a 1yr subscription to ONYX, which we tried out but decided not to continue as Flexisign does everything we need it to do and is much more user friendly in my opinion and we were already on a subscription for that.
We print alot of prints that are to be backlit so the ability to print white in sandwich mode has been great for us. We also print alot of decals and labels and its good for that as well. As far as the quality, I have zero complaints with the HP Latex 700w.

If you have any other questions about the HP let me know and ill answer the best I can.

I've heard about the heads. not sure if I want white. I have a uv flatbed for that. my goal is for the best quality print for raster art for stickers posters and wallscrolls. the extra cost of heads per year and the required yearly subscription puts me off on using the hp but having to replace it yourself is a nice thing. the epson is a single head that's about 6-700 from what I was told. funny thing I received the epson r5070 samples and I compared them to the same samples that they sent me with the HP 700 and to my eyes it looks like they purposely used draft mode instead of HQ mode to try to put me towards the hp :I I appreciate your insight.

 

[frankzilla]

I have the Epson R5070 and I can confirm the heads are user replacable. It's about $700 for the replacement head, and it lasts as long as a solvent might when you take care of it. Depends on use and what happens, it could be 2yrs, it could be 6yrs. But the average is usually about 3yrs in general. You have little to no failure if things are taken care of, vs HPs latex you have failure just from normal failure or how its used based on the color, etc.

Do not count ink by cartridge, count it by mL in cost. Otherwise it's the same as comparing one car to another by saying one cost this much to fill, vs the other when one has a larger tank. You usually shop gas by the gallon, not by how much the tank totals per refill.

Quality, is definitely there and smoother with the Epson with both samples printed and from super high resolution commercial graphics I've produced so far.

The Epson S80600 is even smoother and better print quality yet, but it has its own drawbacks.

Onto Epson Edge Print vs Onyx. If it's the new version yearly, that will add up quick out the gate. However, Epson Edge Print will get you by, but it's garbage still. Rip times are unpredictable, and long. Changes in quantity require reripping the job. Hours wasted there.

I upgraded to Oynx 22 immediately. I get to control ink density, and thus, saves even more on ink by not dumping more when not needed to pay for Onyx. RIP times are amazing, setup and settings are as intuitive as since v12 when I started using Onyx. It's worth every dollar really.

Speeding up print times and pass adjustment with ONYX let's you do an entire roll just under the 3hr cleaning cycle, while still having corporate level graphics produced in 5 or 6 pass modes. Yes, this translates to printing a full roll of graphics in about 2hr 50min. Can go higher pass quality, and it won't error on you like Edge Print does, not letting you start. Instead, with Onyx, it pauses between the page or file or copy at the timer mark, and then continues. Be mindful of using a material that does not warp w the paper, like most Orajet lines. Avery, 3M, Arlon, no issues sitting during the clean with the heat.

If I missed anything, check my other responses in other threads.

 

[balstestrat]

Roland just released their new resin printer... Something to keep in mind if someone is a roland fan.

TrueVIS AP-640 Resin Printer

The TrueVIS AP 640 large format resin/latex printer uses fast drying inks that provides excellent durability.

www.rolanddga.com

 

[ikarasu]

The resin prints better quality than the Latex does -Less grain, better color gamut, more consistant prints lengths for wall graphics, etc. \

Cost wise - Epson wins again... we havent had to change the heads in over a year on the resin, No missing nozzles or anything. On our latex.... We've probably done 2-3 swaps for each color... $175 (canadian) a printhead, 10 printheads, thats $3500 minimum in the past year and a half on heads. A lot of it is due to jams / media scuffs, from the heads crashing into the edge guards ruining the edge guard as well... We print on a lot of reflective where the edge guards are needed, I can see people who dont print on it / use edge guards going through less heads than we do. And of course usage plays a factor - We print on our machine for 8-12 hours per day, everyday... A LOT of material goes through it, so $3500 a year in heads "seems" expensive... but its not that bad for the SQFT we use. Ontop of it you know roughly the sqft cost of heads / ink combined, so its baked into the pricing anyways. We've had some heads fail at 1K ink, and HP replaced them for free - And we've had some heads last 10+ Liters of ink. I think we average 7L per head unless theres a bad jam.

Ink - The resin uses less ink than HP does. And I believe ML for ML the resin is cheaper. It also uses a $20 maintenance cartridge for most cleanings, which saves even more on ink.


Speed - I print on 9 pass on the resin - I can do a roll in 5ish hours on that speed... the Latex we print a roll in 2-3 hours? Not as good quality on the latex, but "Equivlant / good enough" You can bump the resin down and get to near comparable speeds, but I find the colors are duller - I've been meaning to make a new profile from scratch to see if thats fixable,. but like you...speed isnt much of a concern, so we just do 9 pass since it works out of the box.


We print everything from wall murals, to stickers, to canvas's - On both machines... And never had a complaint about quality. I remember when we had a solvent we'd send out a ton of work with banding because the heads were dying, and no one complained / questioned it - Now that Latex is here, banding is all but gone... but if you look closely you see a bit of grain - Something the customer will never notice if you dont point it out to them. So quality wise you can't go wrong with either... Yes, the Epson is a little better, and its color gamut is better - but I don't think anyone will notice the difference between the 2.


You can't go wrong with either machine, both have their ups and downs. The resin is newer and not as fine tuned as the Latex... however the 700 Latex series isn't as fine tuned as the previous latex's either. The epson does not have MCS / Avery warranties with it though, while the HP is certified for all those medias - Another thing to consider. I can count the times on 1 hand in the past 10 years we ever submitted a warranty claim... So its not that big of a deal, but when doing government work and stuff, using a "proven on paper" machine usually looks better.


Software wise - I'm an onyx fan. And with how much it costs to "Rent" the software now, It's not bad. The latex comes with 1 year as you said - $100 a month for the higher tier of onyx, so thats an added $1200 value. The epson comes with one too, lasts forever.. but I wouldnt want to daily drive it. Flexi is what.. $50 a month? Onyx lower tier is also $50 a month - higher tier is $100, all depends if youre doing printing and cutting and profiling and stuff. The software is like 3-4K To buy outright... so 3 years of monthly fees... and you get free upgrades. At first it feels like a never ending scam, but our software price went down from what we used to spend on upgrading onyx whenever we buy a new printer and needed to - $100 a month isnt all that bad... So I'd suggest whether you get the resin, or the latex... budget in the price of the software.

 

[Splash0321]

I have had the HP 700W for almost a year now. I have not been able to get color consistency that I feel a 23K$ printer should. The white printheads are the only ones Ive had to replace but I use white with 99% of the printing I do because Im printing on clear or black vinyl for the most part. Its almost maintenance free as it has a maintenance cartridge that does the bulk of maintenance for you. Im happy with that but they get you on the cost of the maintenance cartridges. You install a new one and from the get-go it starts you out at less then 95% remaining. When it says its depleted you can look and see there is much more left in the cartridge but it requires you to replace it. I've read on the forum of someone who solved this by figuring out a way to empty the fluid from the maintenance cartridge and reinstalling and they gain some life from it. I have yet to test that out.

The huge negative for me on this printer is how long it takes to produce a single print. If its your first print for the day or if the printer has cooled down from the last print you can send a print and it could be 10 minutes before you see it printing. After it is done printing it takes a while for curing so I do alot of sitting and waiting if Ive got no other production to do aside from that print. When I am printing several things back to back you start to see the efficiency.

I am nearing the end of my 1 year warranty and am tossing around the idea of returning this printer for something else. I've had several issues with this one that resulted in 2-3 weeks down time each occurrence so Im a bit frustrated with it. If I knew of another printer that was as easy on maintenance, has white printing option, and was same price point or cheaper I'd probably jump on it.

 

[stickerhed]

We have the HP700W now for over a year. My heads have lasted fairly long, I think I have replaced them totally once so far except for the white heads which i have replaced twice.
Each color has its own head so if you have a failure in one head you can just replace that head. I think the Epson has multiple colors or even all colors on one head so if one goes then you have to replace all at the same time? I am not 100% sure on this.
After coming from the solvent printer side of things, the cost of the HP latex heads are dirt cheap compared to solvent heads for printers like Seiko or Roland. Those also required a tech to install. The HP heads are user replaceable and can be done in less than 10 minutes.
The only major issue we have had with our HP is large graphics that require multiple overlapping panels. Sometimes the panels do not line up perfectly no matter what you do.
As far as the RIP our HP came with a 1yr subscription to ONYX, which we tried out but decided not to continue as Flexisign does everything we need it to do and is much more user friendly in my opinion and we were already on a subscription for that.
We print alot of prints that are to be backlit so the ability to print white in sandwich mode has been great for us. We also print alot of decals and labels and its good for that as well. As far as the quality, I have zero complaints with the HP Latex 700w.

If you have any other questions about the HP let me know and ill answer the best I can.

I have a 700w as well, I've found that printing one panel at a time takes care of the problem of the panels not lining up. It takes longer to print, but we just did both sides of a 20' trailer this way without problems. Just to be clear, print the panel, let it finish curing, then send over the next panel. I don't cut each panel off.

 

[kagekitsune]

Roland just released their new resin printer... Something to keep in mind if someone is a roland fan.

TrueVIS AP-640 Resin Printer

The TrueVIS AP 640 large format resin/latex printer uses fast drying inks that provides excellent durability.

www.rolanddga.com

i have a lef2-300 i was excited about this one but then they dropped the ball with only 4 ink config, no LC, LM so the grain from gradients will be noticeable :I

 

[kagekitsune]

I have the Epson R5070 and I can confirm the heads are user replacable. It's about $700 for the replacement head, and it lasts as long as a solvent might when you take care of it. Depends on use and what happens, it could be 2yrs, it could be 6yrs. But the average is usually about 3yrs in general. You have little to no failure if things are taken care of, vs HPs latex you have failure just from normal failure or how its used based on the color, etc.

Do not count ink by cartridge, count it by mL in cost. Otherwise it's the same as comparing one car to another by saying one cost this much to fill, vs the other when one has a larger tank. You usually shop gas by the gallon, not by how much the tank totals per refill.

Quality, is definitely there and smoother with the Epson with both samples printed and from super high resolution commercial graphics I've produced so far.

The Epson S80600 is even smoother and better print quality yet, but it has its own drawbacks.

Onto Epson Edge Print vs Onyx. If it's the new version yearly, that will add up quick out the gate. However, Epson Edge Print will get you by, but it's garbage still. Rip times are unpredictable, and long. Changes in quantity require reripping the job. Hours wasted there.

I upgraded to Oynx 22 immediately. I get to control ink density, and thus, saves even more on ink by not dumping more when not needed to pay for Onyx. RIP times are amazing, setup and settings are as intuitive as since v12 when I started using Onyx. It's worth every dollar really.

Speeding up print times and pass adjustment with ONYX let's you do an entire roll just under the 3hr cleaning cycle, while still having corporate level graphics produced in 5 or 6 pass modes. Yes, this translates to printing a full roll of graphics in about 2hr 50min. Can go higher pass quality, and it won't error on you like Edge Print does, not letting you start. Instead, with Onyx, it pauses between the page or file or copy at the timer mark, and then continues. Be mindful of using a material that does not warp w the paper, like most Orajet lines. Avery, 3M, Arlon, no issues sitting during the clean with the heat.

If I missed anything, check my other responses in other threads.

do you happen to print on Poly Poplin material or similar?

 

[kagekitsune]

The resin prints better quality than the Latex does -Less grain, better color gamut, more consistant prints lengths for wall graphics, etc. \

Cost wise - Epson wins again... we havent had to change the heads in over a year on the resin, No missing nozzles or anything. On our latex.... We've probably done 2-3 swaps for each color... $175 (canadian) a printhead, 10 printheads, thats $3500 minimum in the past year and a half on heads. A lot of it is due to jams / media scuffs, from the heads crashing into the edge guards ruining the edge guard as well... We print on a lot of reflective where the edge guards are needed, I can see people who dont print on it / use edge guards going through less heads than we do. And of course usage plays a factor - We print on our machine for 8-12 hours per day, everyday... A LOT of material goes through it, so $3500 a year in heads "seems" expensive... but its not that bad for the SQFT we use. Ontop of it you know roughly the sqft cost of heads / ink combined, so its baked into the pricing anyways. We've had some heads fail at 1K ink, and HP replaced them for free - And we've had some heads last 10+ Liters of ink. I think we average 7L per head unless theres a bad jam.

Ink - The resin uses less ink than HP does. And I believe ML for ML the resin is cheaper. It also uses a $20 maintenance cartridge for most cleanings, which saves even more on ink.


Speed - I print on 9 pass on the resin - I can do a roll in 5ish hours on that speed... the Latex we print a roll in 2-3 hours? Not as good quality on the latex, but "Equivlant / good enough" You can bump the resin down and get to near comparable speeds, but I find the colors are duller - I've been meaning to make a new profile from scratch to see if thats fixable,. but like you...speed isnt much of a concern, so we just do 9 pass since it works out of the box.


We print everything from wall murals, to stickers, to canvas's - On both machines... And never had a complaint about quality. I remember when we had a solvent we'd send out a ton of work with banding because the heads were dying, and no one complained / questioned it - Now that Latex is here, banding is all but gone... but if you look closely you see a bit of grain - Something the customer will never notice if you dont point it out to them. So quality wise you can't go wrong with either... Yes, the Epson is a little better, and its color gamut is better - but I don't think anyone will notice the difference between the 2.


You can't go wrong with either machine, both have their ups and downs. The resin is newer and not as fine tuned as the Latex... however the 700 Latex series isn't as fine tuned as the previous latex's either. The epson does not have MCS / Avery warranties with it though, while the HP is certified for all those medias - Another thing to consider. I can count the times on 1 hand in the past 10 years we ever submitted a warranty claim... So its not that big of a deal, but when doing government work and stuff, using a "proven on paper" machine usually looks better.


Software wise - I'm an onyx fan. And with how much it costs to "Rent" the software now, It's not bad. The latex comes with 1 year as you said - $100 a month for the higher tier of onyx, so thats an added $1200 value. The epson comes with one too, lasts forever.. but I wouldnt want to daily drive it. Flexi is what.. $50 a month? Onyx lower tier is also $50 a month - higher tier is $100, all depends if youre doing printing and cutting and profiling and stuff. The software is like 3-4K To buy outright... so 3 years of monthly fees... and you get free upgrades. At first it feels like a never ending scam, but our software price went down from what we used to spend on upgrading onyx whenever we buy a new printer and needed to - $100 a month isnt all that bad... So I'd suggest whether you get the resin, or the latex... budget in the price of the software.

do you happen to print on poly poplin material or similar? my main use for either of these printers will be Mainly Wall scrolls, but also do poster, sticker, and banner prints that mainly focus on Quality over speed. im not a large company either, im more of the go to person whos not overseas to that artists go to to get artwork printed on several materials. like Made to order so speed to me doesn't matter one bit for the time being.

 

[ikarasu]

do you happen to print on poly poplin material or similar? my main use for either of these printers will be Mainly Wall scrolls, but also do poster, sticker, and banner prints that mainly focus on Quality over speed. im not a large company either, im more of the go to person whos not overseas to that artists go to to get artwork printed on several materials. like Made to order so speed to me doesn't matter one bit for the time being.

Nope. it looks like ultraflexx sells a version that it is latex (And would be resin) printable though.

Few things to note -

I print on SAV 90% of the time - On really cheap media, the media will "Tunnel" a bit if you suck it back in after printing on it. By default the Resin will extend media to the cut channel.. which is 24" away. I tell it not to because I dont want to waste 24" of material everytime I requeue something... For 99% of media, it works good - For banners, and $100 vinyl rolls... the material is heated up and it'll tunnel if it pulls back. BUT on a resin you can print right on the front edge... No 2-3 FT waste like on the latex as a leader. And 99% of what I print will suck back in just fine.

Banner: Prints nice. I do find that if the roll is old... the Latex will print on it better than the R500 does - on our latex ive never experienced banner material being too old to print... On our resin you can see splotches if the rolls been sitting there for a few months untouched. The latex seems to just print over and cover the plasticizer migrations. Not a big deal... most rolls dont sit around for a year. And the tunneling thing - You waste 2 FT at the end of your print... But banner is cheap, so not a big deal.

Paper - I've printed on some paper designed for latex - It worked good. It uses low heat to cure it... The same paper I brought in for Latex, we stopped using it on our latex because it curled and wouldnt lay flat. That was our 560 latex - Since then the 700 came out and uses less heat... We do have a 700, but I never tested it on the 700...so I cant confirm if it'd still curl. My expectation is it wouldnt, but even if it did... I'm sure you can turn down the heat and make it work.

Other quirks...

The whole ejecting 2 FT after every print is annoying. I get it, the cutting channel is 2 FT Below the starting point...so it ejects it for you so you can cut it. But then if you send something else from queue... theres a 2 FT gap! I turned it off as soon as I got the printer.... for 99% of medias its not an issue.


It's loud - If youre in an open space it isnt bad. But the Resin sounds like a jet engine compared to the Latex - It's fans are more like blowers... The thing moves air. I think thats how they get away with using little heat... But it will heat up your shop, or in my case my garage... I have an unheated garage, I can go out in -10C Temps and hit print, and within an hour it's 20C in there. It complains about being too hot in the summer...so I have to open the garage and blow some fans in. So depending on where youre putting it... keep in mind the heat + loudness of the thing. The Latex is probably 1/4 as quiet, and doesnt heat up the room as much.

theres a... glitch? At least I think so. I've formatted and used different PCs, and it keeps happening...so I'm calling it a glitch on the resin and not onyx. If you cancel a queue...the next queue you send will be marked as "complete" and not print. It's weird, and annoying, but not a big deal... unelss your constantly canceling prints. I've learned to just clear my queue and then send the next que... if it insta completes, I re-drag it and hit send again and then it goes.

You're not supposed to print for more than 2 hours at a time - I dont know why... but it wont run a cleaning mid print. So they say to only send 2 hours worth of queue at once, or you risk getting banding... I've run a few full rolls without following their advice, and it worked fine for me. I guess its just to cover their ass incase it does band and you waste 1/3 of a roll? I'm sure it can be changed in a firmware update... I mean, what industrial printer limits you to print for 2 hours, then send another queue, so it can queue up a cleaning? seems ridiculous to me, I dont get why they cant pause mid print and do a cleaning.. I've paused the print for 10+ mins before, came back and started it and it didnt have any issues...so why cant it self clean mid print?!

I think thats it! Tiny quirks. Nothing major / deal breaking to me. I work on both machines, and I hate to say it but I prefer the epson over the latex 9.9/10 times now. We're still having way too many issues with our Latex printer... The 700 has too many drawbacks / bugs in it... I'm hoping their next model takes what the 700 got, and it becomes as stable as the 500 series. I loooove how you can send an onyx queue and it stores it on its hard drive, and you can keep sending and queueing other stuff / other material. I don't see why onyx doesnt let you manage multiple queues... But that feature in the 700 is the best thing to happen to roll printers in a long time, imo!

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

I'm looking at getting the resin printer... what are your thoughts on the availability of media for it? I saw someone had mentioned it doesn't have some of the certifications yet but will this basically print on anythin a latex can?

 

[ikarasu]

Yes. It prints on anything a latex can.

It's not certified because it's a long process and their first gen of resin, but I've never had an issue printing on anything we print on with our latexs.

 

[Rygar138]

I print on SAV 90% of the time - On really cheap media, the media will "Tunnel" a bit if you suck it back in after printing on it. By default the Resin will extend media to the cut channel.. which is 24" away. I tell it not to because I dont want to waste 24" of material everytime I requeue something... For 99% of media, it works good - For banners, and $100 vinyl rolls... the material is heated up and it'll tunnel if it pulls back. BUT on a resin you can print right on the front edge... No 2-3 FT waste like on the latex as a leader. And 99% of what I print will suck back in just fine.

I have the Epson R5070 and I am having the exact same problem with tunneling when reverse feeding after printing. It seems to only happen on poster paper (Sihl Trisolv, I've tried several from that line). I'm curious if you've found any tips or tricks to help resolve this because it's been driving me mad! I was using the Trisolv PhotoArt profile in Edge Dashboard and have had mildly better results using the Epson GS Poster Paper profile, but far from solves the problem. I've had the machine for a couple months now and I love it so far, outside of constantly fighting this issue. Thanks in advance!

 

[ikarasu]

Paper is the one media I don't have it suck in. I think the paper heats up, moisture leaves it and that's what causes the problem.

Fortunately paper is cheap.... So if you waste 1-2 ft every load it's not the end of the world... So I just tell it not to suck it up, cut it off at the top and don't have any problems.

Not a fix, really... But I find paper is too cheap of a media to fight with and try to save every inch of.