Install company screwed me, What can i do?

[john1]

Well, About a month ago a company in Ohio that pretty much is a print broker contacted me to do a install for a customer of theirs in my town. I accepted and quoted them $150 to install the pre-shipped graphics. It was on a Ford Transit a parts delivery company just bought. I always get a deposit on jobs but since this company was contracting me to do only a install, They wouldn't budge so i took a chance. Probably shouldn't have now...

There was to be door logos on each door as well as the rear door. There was also to be a very thick side stripe from the rear tail light to the front doors. It was about 7'x1.25".

Door logos went on great as they used Oracal 651. The side stripes were also Oracal 651 and i stressed to my sales rep from that company that this material is not the correct material for anything going over curves, indentations and moldings on a vehicle.

I was told "Just do the best you can", So i decided to put it on, Show them photos of why i was correct in telling them it would not work right. I then took off the side stripes only because even though i am not producing the graphics, The install looked horrible due to the poor material choice for the job and i don't let junk go out the door.

Now i am finding out i'm not getting paid because i did not complete the job. To me, I think it's right to be paid a portion of the job that was completed but correct me if i am wrong.

The side stripes were re-printed on 3M 180 apparently now and they had another place install those only. I'm not getting paid because they are acting like those stripes were a billion dollars to get re-printed when i would have had my money if i just left the Oracal 651 stripes on no matter how they looked.

Anything i can do other then suck it up?

Thanks all, I'm trying not to blast the companies name but really, I don't have anything to lose if i am already getting screwed by them.

 

[Pat Whatley]

Suck it up. You're trying to fight a battle with a company 1000 miles away over whatever portion of $150 you think you should be getting

 

[TXFB.INS]

They do have a valid point, you were contracted to XYZ, you only did XY
regardless if it looked like POO POO or not does not change that you were suppose to install everything.

could have taken images and and explained to them is is wrong, and when it failed let the customer go back to the person they bought it from.
as you said you were the installer NOT the designer/producer.

regarding payment, good luck in getting paid and keep climbing the ladder till you get someone who can make a decision.

Just another reminder not to start work unless you have deposit and/or a CC on file.

 

[Border]

Yup, chalk it up as a lesson and move on to making other money.
$150.00 is a cheap lesson, but not if you waste a bunch of additional time dwelling on it.

 

[john1]

Few visuals, Yeah they sent masked Oracal 651. Visual of where the stripe should go and how it looks when placed over the parts sticking out before application.

 

[Gino]

Well, before there was the 'right material' [as you put it] to go over these problem areas you talk about, there was only 651 & 751. Most of us did it back in the day.... you know, before they invented RA vinyls.

They probably thought they had someone who could handle all aspects of an installation and not a specialist who worked in specific vinyls only.

If contracted to do all of the areas on the job and you didn't perform most of it.... why should you be paid ??

If I had a dinner at a nice restaurant.... and the meat was bad, but the potatoes and vegetables were alright, would you pay for a partial meal ?? Would you even go further or stop when you were wronged ?? Would you then proceed to order dessert ?? How much of a tip would you leave if you were totally dissatisfied ??

Yep, suck it up for $150 and learn to either do the entire job and do it completely and correctly, or tell them you can't do it at all. You don't take on a project and meddle through bits and parts that you want and give a sob story that you now consider yourself.... unqualified to complete the entire job, but still want to be partially paid.

That company, now has to find someone to finish your job and it won't be easy explaining the first guy screwed up, will you finish the job for partial pay.

 

[threeputt]

I agree with principles laid out by Gino (above) although he doesn't mince words does he?

But the underlying point here is that this is business. And one company has the right to expect performance by the other company. ie: they want the work done as specified....and you want to be paid as specified.

 

[john1]

*sigh*

I'm always messing something

*facepalm*

 

[ddarlak]

it was a $150 install, you should have treated it as such and just got it done and got paid.

seriously, if your gonna take buck fifty install jobs, don't treat them as if they are your portfolio highlights....

i understand do a good job at what ever you do, but understand, that your graphics supplier didn't give 2 chit's about the job and neither should you. in the end he had to pay someone else to do your job.....

 

[royster13]

John you have to stop sending out such "bad karma"......Folks can feel your desperation and will take advantage of it at every opportunity....

 

[CES020]

Maybe too much Soul Glo in your eyes

Hang in there John. Business, from a startup like you're doing, is a learning experience. It takes years and years to make smart decisions. Some might lead you to believe you start making great decisions from day 1, but it's just not the case. Just browse this forum and you'll long time business owners asking questions just like this, where they did something they shouldn't have and it bit them. It happens to ALL of us at some point. The lesson it to try not to repeat it.

I remember the early days. So trusting, so enthusiastic about potential orders.

I don't recall the details, but in the early days, someone said they were going to give me a lot of work. It was all but done. I think we even went out and celebrated that night because it was the first "home run" we had hit. Only problem is it never came through, despite what we were told that day.

Fast forward 2 years, we hear the same type story and I tell the owner (who wants to go celebrate), that it's never going to happen. I get all the "it's going to happen,they said so". I said "Yeah, don't order your steak yet, order it when you see the P/O". Never came.

I hate to say it, because it makes me sound like a grumpy old man, but eventually you just don't believe anything anyone tells you in regards to an order, until the down payment is cleared. That's when I believe it, when the checks have cleared. Until that point, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, it'll be 1000's of these coming next month, I know, I know.....

Hang in there. It'll get better.

 

[Gino]

John you have to stop sending out such "bad karma"......Folks can feel your desperation and will take advantage of it at every opportunity....

I think that is the biggest, bestest, most betterer statement about your business model, I've heard yet.

 

[Jackpine]

I would have installed the graphics as good as I could and got paid. They knew what they were selling to their customer.

"A $150 install, you should have treated it as such and just got it done and got paid."

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I have to agree.

Once you voice your concerns and they say to continue on, make sure you keep all correspondence and proceed to finish the job.

I've had this conversation with many people that bring in garments or other fabric that they want me to embroider and the fabric isn't the best for it. I get it in writing that they understand and I do the embroidery to the best that I can with what I have to work with (although you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear).

 

[TheSnowman]

I did a survey and basic banner install for a company in PA here in Indiana. The town was a stretch from where I wanted to work, but they were offering decent pay for my travel time, so I decided to take them up on it.

They refused to pay in advance, but they'd pay "soon as they got the invoice".

I went to do a survey of a place that was closing it's doors, and they needed to know what had to be done to remove current signage, then they wanted me to install a banner (seperate trips). Well, I turned in my invoice, and they said that I wasn't supposed to survey the place that was closing, I was supposed to survey where I was installing the banner, even though they'd already shipped the banner I was installing.

Basically, there were too many people that I was dealing with, and none of them were talking to each other. In the end, we ended up getting them what they needed, but I ate two hours on the road and gas on one job because they were screwed around, and weren't willing to pay what was for "my fault" of them putting the wrong address on the work form.

Then we got to the "pay right away" part. That was two months ago and the check just came, so that's not "right away" to me, but I at least got paid.

Moral of the story...any time you install for someone else, you are putting your neck on the chopping block. I can only assume that the lady that called me said "I've tried a couple other company's but they won't ever get me the info" because they were either hard to work with and the other guy was smart, or he was smart ahead of time and knew not to even begin messing with it.

 

[mark galoob]

the first few lines that you wrote had the words "print broker" in it...anytime i hear this i really cringe. 9 times out of 10 in my experience "print brokers" are blabber mouth scum of the earth that try to do anything to waste my time and money. calling me at all hours to get a quote on this and that and never actually doing the jobs. ive come to a conclusion and a new policy about them.

from now on i will take a 500 dollar deposit from any "print broker" that approaches me with this kind of business. then he or she can bother me with prices all they want and if they get a sale great, ill deduct it from the depost untill they pay that off.

yup in my book "print broker" = scum

mark galoob

 

[CES020]

Just for the record, I met John and his wife and I don't believe he's even remotely "desperate" with his customers. I think he comes here and asks questions as someone that doesn't have any other sign people to talk to, so he's venting more than anything.

He came across and very confident and positive when I met him. I also thought he was doing a lot of very good things, and doing a lot of the right things.

Of course those things don't get posted, so it's all overlooked in the grand scheme of things, but I think he's a nice guy with a good business and he'll do well over the years.

If we all posted the mistakes we make or have made, we'd look exactly the same way, or far, far worse.

 

[HulkSmash]

Even though it isn't the right material, Any experienced installer could make that work with no issue.

I contract installs all the time around the country, and if you don't finish the job, you don't get paid. They are the ones who take the heat for not getting it done right; not you -- put yourself in their shoes. I wouldn't expect to get paid if i didn't finish a job.

I would have just cut my own material and re did it just to make the customer happy...and take the couple of dollar hit just to have another happy customer.

that's just me though.

 

[john1]

Thanks for all the replies.

Steve, I really appreciate the kind words. You seem like a great guy as well and i have learned a lot in our short meet up in Philly.

When i say this, I am being 100% honest, Without the members on this forum i have nobody at all to talk about this industry to. Some days i feel bad for even having a account on here because i don't feel apart of the community anymore and any screw up i make a topic about trying to improve myself i get crap about.

Call me desperate all you guys want, I am very vocal about expressing something that needs expressed. Not to gain any pitty parties from anyone here but maybe it was the way i was raised. My Father wasn't the best and due to the way things were, for me to speak up and voice my emotion on a topic is a new concept.

I try to be the best i can be and hell yeah i have hard times, yeah i lose money some months due to lack of jobs coming in but i am still here and standing. I'm 25 years old and i won't give up no matter what. Even though there are days where i feel like throwing in the towel.

 

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

I once worked as a project manager for a large production sign company, and for the record I hated it. I'd much rather work in the production end.

As a rule of thumb, the companys that hire you want to put off paying as long as possible. They will look for any excuse. The guy over me once told me that if I found anything wrong, just stamp it incomplete, and snail mail it back, and let them figure out what was missing. I said it would be quicker to just call them, and he said that that means we would have to pay them faster, thus not as much money in the company account, and no return...

When you didn't complete the job, you made it easy for them.

When I get a call for install or site survey, I require money up front... so needless to say, I don't do that much. I'd much rather get paid up front than to have to chase the company down.

 

[Gino]

CES and john.....

There is nothing wrong or condescending in telling someone he/she appear desperate. As mentioned, we all were there once and we're explaining things from years.... and for some of us, decades of experience and trying to keep some of you from doing the same thing. When I was coming up through the ranks of having a business, I had absolutely no one to turn to for advice. Mine was mostly trial and error. There was no internet, utubes or other free Dear Abby's to call. Other sign shops were your complete competition and they would usually give you poor advice to help you go under. In that respect, this place s101 has got to be the all-time best place to go for sign help.... unless you're a troll or end-user.

Anyway, it still happens to this day, where someone gives you all the positive signals of getting a job, down to PO's and signed quotes and they still fall through, but to hear about it for $150..... be glad, be happy, be titillated you only lost $150 for a well-learned lesson. I wish some of mine only cost that.

Remember this.... it has nothing to do with you being a nice guy or a nice family.... some customers will screw their own Mother out of money if they could. It's all about business and being a good businessperson. So, be strong, knowledgeable and ready to do battle if you must... to keep what's yours, but be sure to pick the right battles to win..... not a skirmish over $150.

Learn it now, while you're still young and the costs are very low, because as time goes on, the same situation will come up for $1,500, then $15,000 and even more. We had one about three weeks ago for almost $9,000.00. The guy liked our numbers, gave us all the information for the files and signed off on a quote and the go-ahead. A few days later, when I asked for the deposit, I was told to hold off for awhile. Haven't heard anything, yet. If we got it, fine.... if not, that's fine, too. Just don't count your chicks before they're hatched.