JV3 w/ JVS inks making profile with flexi & profile maker

[Spencer McMurtry]

I have a jv3-160S with Triangle JVS Inks, i am using flexi 8.1 as my rip. I cant not find any profiles for my setup, so i am having to build everything from scratch.

I am building my profiles with flexi and profile maker 5 with a eye one pro.

I was going to hire someone to come train me on how to profile however i cant afford the 3 grand this would cost.

I feel like i am getting very close to success with the profiling, i was just curious if there was anyone who has used this setup and might be able to help me out.

i am really confused on the separations you do in profile maker. also i have heard there is a way to test the lightness in the ink limits to find out the correct placements. does anyone know how this works? I will figure this all out, it is just a matter of time. when i sort it out i will be posting a very nice tutorial.

Thanks!

 

[eye4clr]

This would be about right when you want the to have the perception of higher resolution prints at the expense of a bit more ink use.

This would be well suited to banner printing or when you can tolerate a more obvious black dot. This uses less ink, but prints appears grainier.

It is all a trade-off. Choose your tools wisely.

What do you mean by testing your lightness in the ink limits? Are you referring to the Total Ink setting or selecting Ink Restrictions?

 

[MachServTech]

What do you mean by testing your lightness in the ink limits? Are you referring to the Total Ink setting or selecting Ink Restrictions?

Sounds like he is talking about ink restrictions and how to set them based on where each channel drops in luminance?

 

[eye4clr]

If it is the restrictions, they should be done based on Chroma, not lightness. Well, except the black of course. K you do based on lightness. But both the C and M should be done via Chroma. Use the Y as a grey balance variable judged by eye. IOW, set the C and M based on real measurements in Chroma using the Measure Tool. Then set Y based on how it balances with the C and M to get a warm grey out of a test print you create that ramps equal amounts of CMY from 0-100 of each color.

Also, you'd ideally like the light inks turned OFF when measuring for restrictions. Otherwise you'll be measuring some portion of the light inks when you read the C and M. This will skew the readings and require you to make multiple iterations of print-read, print-read, print-read to make sure you're getting what you want.

I'm skipping some of the specifics for reading comparative colors with Measure Tool assuming you can figure out how to use the Spot Color reading. Set it to measure based on the most current DeltaE method. Then just measure each independent color (C & M) to find the max Chroma. Then, and this is the secret sauce trick, keep measuring down the ramp until the difference in DeltaE is just less than 1.0. This way you're maximizing you restriction and maximizing your gamut.

Happy profiling.

 

[MachServTech]

If it is the restrictions, they should be done based on Chroma, not lightness.

Happy profiling.

For a neat trick try to plot a 5% step cmyk ramps (read the data from all four ramps) into a program like Colorport and then export into Colorthink Pro.
Have colorthink plot a 3d distribution and you can actually see the process eye4clr described.

 

[Spencer McMurtry]

eye4clr:
First off thank you so much for the reply! it is nice to know there is some light at the end of the tunnel! i am so close to figuring this all out! and giving up is not a option.

Here is where i stand, i am making a profile for 3m 180c. i am making the profile with flexi 8.1.
-step 1 load media in printer run media comp and print adjust (for bi-dir) also change turned off logetic seek so the head moves across the full width of the media ever pass
-step 2 i setup the default settings in flexi 8.1 for the profile i am wanting to make, i am currently attempting to make the profile at 360x750 8 pass bi dir. i have my printer settings at | pre heat 45, print heat 43 | high quality | high speed OFF
-step 3 i open up color profiler in flexi 8.1 and add the correct media i am using 3m 180c and double check all the settings are correct.
-step 4 i print off the main CMYK ink limits (not sure how to turn off lc or lm are they off by default?) I will also print off CMYK ink limits at a lot large sizer around 24inches wide so i can exam them closer.
-step 5 i will look though all the swatches and i will note any bleeding i see. (from my understanding if there is bleeding it is laying down to much ink?)
-i have tried to use spot color in profile maker to test the for the correct limits, current settings i am using are - spot color tab: delta e 2000. and i scan the reference at 100% ink of the color i am testing. I then test the sample going down ever 5% of the ink limit tell i get Delta L 2.0 for black (or close to it) and Delta c 2.0 for cyan and magenta.
-for yellow i have been doing roughly 10% lower than cyan but checking by printing a cmy ramp, is this what you are meaning buy printing a greyscale ramp?

---------------i just did you what your post said about measuring the delta e, and on CYAN i am getting bleedng all the way up to 55% however delta e is at 1.0 at 95% do i still use this setting even if it is bleeding? (here is scan of the ink limits so you can see the bleeding http://infinitegraphics.net/jv3_problems/profiles/360x720-8pass-bidir-cmyk-limits.jpg |caution 8mb file -sorry this is hosted off site, however forum hosted images are not high quality enough for what i am needing to show)

i will not post the rest of my process until i get a response from you as i think this is where i am messing up.

the current ink limits i ended up using (i set them so there was no bleeding) is cyan 55, magenta 70, yellow 45 (10% lower than cyan) and black 55.
---not sure if this matters but i am using triangle jvs inks.

please advise let me know if you need any more information.

 

[eye4clr]

Start by abandoning 360x720. The printer will run too fast for decent dot control. Then if you slow it down by going to uni directional or choosing a slower head speed, you're back at 720x720 productivity or slower. Let me suggest 720x720, 8 pass, fast head speed. You'll end up with better output, more stable print production, and a larger color gamut.

-step 3 i open up color profiler in flexi 8.1 and add the correct media i am using 3m 180c and double check all the settings are correct.

I assume you are creating this media from scratch and not tweaking some existing media. You should always start fresh.

-step 4 i print off the main CMYK ink limits (not sure how to turn off lc or lm are they off by default?) I will also print off CMYK ink limits at a lot large sizer around 24inches wide so i can exam them closer.

I don't remember that you can turn off the lc, lm in flexi (it's been a while). Assuming you can not, start off with all 4 inks at 100 max ink load. You want to start with too much ink. Then when you take your first measurement, know that it is being affected by the lclm. So multiple itterations are needed. Leave Y alone until you sort out the C and M.

-step 5 i will look though all the swatches and i will note any bleeding i see. (from my understanding if there is bleeding it is laying down to much ink?)

Yes, it should be too much ink. This is the step where you adjust for that. Personally I'm always disappointed when I don't get to do a big restriction because the Chroma drops early. Going to 720x720 should help with the dot control/bleed/banding in your pic.

-i have tried to use spot color in profile maker to test the for the correct limits, current settings i am using are - spot color tab: delta e 2000. and i scan the reference at 100% ink of the color i am testing. I then test the sample going down ever 5% of the ink limit tell i get Delta L 2.0 for black (or close to it) and Delta c 2.0 for cyan and magenta.

Oops! Sorry that I failed to mention changing LAB to LCH. This way you get an explicit number for Chroma. This is your focus for C and M. K of course is based on the L. Measure down the ramp until you find the highest Chroma value. write this down on the target next to the patch or off to the side with a label. Once you find this max Chroma patch, remeasure it as the reference in Measure Tool. Then continue down the ramp watching the DeltaE value for Chroma. As it gets to and goes beyond 1.0 that's your sweet spot. Remeasure back up the ramp until you get around 0.8 or 0.9. This way you can sleep at night knowing you have as much gamut as the ink/media can produce.

-for yellow i have been doing roughly 10% lower than cyan but checking by printing a cmy ramp, is this what you are meaning buy printing a greyscale ramp?

This sounds very reasonable. Yes, the combined CMY ramp is the way to figure out the Y relative to the C and M. Keep in mind that the way the instrument sees Y and our real perception of saturation in Y are different. So loosing a little gamut in Y doesn't really hurt you as long as it is only a little. Again, you're striving for a warm grey. When in doubt, look at the warm grey patches in a Pantone Process book. It doesn't have to be perfect, but you don't want a significant color cast one direction or another. Grey balance problems puts too much strain on the ICC and diminishes its accuracy.

the current ink limits i ended up using (i set them so there was no bleeding) is cyan 55, magenta 70, yellow 45 (10% lower than cyan) and black 55.

It seems that those values are too low for the 360x720 print mode. I use the same printer/ink combination you have and I don't think my restrictions at 720x720 are that low.

Happy profiling.