Ongoing Adhesive Issues (I'm totally exasperated)

[RyanTischerPhoto]

I've had ongoing adhesive issues for the past several years, even with different brands and am hoping it's something we're doing wrong, not that all adhesives we've used are inherently garbage quality.

The problem is that after mounting the adhesive has indentations in it. Sometimes they run lengthwise, sometimes widthwise, sometimes it's just dips in the adhesive. If they're particularly large/deep you can even feel them when running your hand over the mounted artwork. Sometimes you can even see the lines on the roll itself. They're usually only visible when looking at the artwork from the side in the reflections. It may seem minor, but people pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for my artwork and frankly it needs to be perfect or very close to it.

We've used the following adhesives, about half of the time I end up returning the rolls due to this ongoing issue; Instabond from Quality Media (QMLS), SureTac from DryTac (I'm convinced these first two are the same product, just with different companies on the labels), and now the issue returns with MediaTac by DryTac. The first two are solvent and the latter is aqueous acrylic.

We're encapsulating (high gloss laminate on top roller, adhesive on bottom roller), and are laminating high gloss 5mil instant dry polyester film. We're careful not to stop in the middle of running the print through

We even paid a tech $1200 to fly out and look at our process, which he said he believes we're doing everything correctly.

Is this an ongoing issue for anyone else? Are these adhesives just poor quality that everyone else puts up with and we're just more picky? Is there another product we should be trying? It needs to be long-lasting as we have a lifetime guarantee on our artwork.

We've been dealing with this intermittently for several years now, have been troubleshooting with "experts" that we've bought the products from and they're clueless and usually just take the adhesive back on return. We're a small business and absorbing the costs of this in materials, ink, and labor is costing us thousands of dollars. We've experienced this issue with two different laminators now, the Kala Starter 55" and Kala Mistral 65", so I'm ruling out the equipment.

I'm exasperated and at a loss for what's going wrong here.

 

[Humble PM]

We've had this problem repeatedly, going back a dozen years. Some rolls, you see piping in the edge of the adhesive roll - you know these flaws are going to go on in the rest of the roll. Before using an even slightly suspect roll, roll out a few metres (sticky up!) on a bench, and have a look from an angle. If you see pits, and voids, this is going to present itself in your work.
For polyester based materials, or when mounting to DiBond, we've ended up using DryTac FaceMount film. You can see if there is a problem with it before wasting the priont, the laminate and the substrate, but it is damnedly expensive, and a real static monster, so clean spaces need to be really clean.

Once asked a rep from Drytac whether they offered a premium version of their selfwound film. He was slightly offended; as far as they were concerned, this was the premium product.

Generally, if I get good rolls through, I'll ask the supplier for more of the same batch, but I've not been able to get a solid answer on the shelf life.

 

[RyanTischerPhoto]

We've had this problem repeatedly, going back a dozen years. Some rolls, you see piping in the edge of the adhesive roll - you know these flaws are going to go on in the rest of the roll. Before using an even slightly suspect roll, roll out a few metres (sticky up!) on a bench, and have a look from an angle. If you see pits, and voids, this is going to present itself in your work.
For polyester based materials, or when mounting to DiBond, we've ended up using DryTac FaceMount film. You can see if there is a problem with it before wasting the priont, the laminate and the substrate, but it is damnedly expensive, and a real static monster, so clean spaces need to be really clean.

Once asked a rep from Drytac whether they offered a premium version of their selfwound film. He was slightly offended; as far as they were concerned, this was the premium product.

Generally, if I get good rolls through, I'll ask the supplier for more of the same batch, but I've not been able to get a solid answer on the shelf life.

I'm sorry you've also had these issues, but it's good to know that we're not alone and not all crazy! I appreciate the tip on rolling it out first too.

 

[Humble PM]

The bit you roll out is now almost trash. Use it like a towel to bet lint dust and hairs off your clothing and work area.
Also, any time you pause the application of the adhesive for more than a few seconds, you can develop a ridge where the adhesive is leaving the roll.

The old saying - a problem shared is a problem two people have.

 

[ColorCrest]

I'm exasperated and at a loss for what's going wrong here.

Care to share what lamination machine you're using? Print media and substrate(s)?

 

[RyanTischerPhoto]

Care to share what lamination machine you're using? Print media and substrate(s)?

Kala Mistral 65" (brand new and before that we used the Kala Starter 55"...same issue), BeBond Premium 1-sided ACM from N Glantz, High Gloss Polyester Film 5mil Instant Dry (sihl)

 

[RyanTischerPhoto]

Give 3m 467MP a shot, my rolls tend to come in boxed up nicely since it's such a small roll at such a high cost. It's only about $1/ft, but 180 yds on a roll is quite a bit. Comes up to 48" master rolls I believe.

Does heat on the laminator help any? Perhaps switch up the positions of the materials, mounting film on top and print on bottom, to utilize the top heated roller if you only have one.

Where do you get the 3M adhesive from?
We have heat assist on the top roller, usually set to about 105°F. I'm hesitant to swap adhesive and laminate, as that means we can no long dust roller it as it's going through the laminator.

 

[ColorCrest]

Kala Mistral 65" (brand new and before that we used the Kala Starter 55"...same issue), BeBond Premium 1-sided ACM from N Glantz, High Gloss Polyester Film 5mil Instant Dry (sihl)

In my experience of circles of print products such as your photography, I can say that I haven't seen a Kala being used. That's not to say they're inferior, but photo labs have been around a very long time and have used other brands with a long history of success.

I know most critical photography mounting requires rather high pressure using very even tension across the rollers and feed speed enough to pull out winding faults but not so much as to stretch the adhesive much differently from the print or substrate. How much confidence do you have in those specifics?

 

[Humble PM]

I know most critical photography mounting requires rather high pressure

In my years of producing photographic exhibitions, correct, rather than high pressure has produced good results.
We are a small outfit, and don't yet run roll to roll. For critical results, we'll use a premium adhesive to a premium substrate, and the laminate is first applied to the print media. We also run all the mounting cold, so I may be off track here.

 

[ikarasu]

We use 3m 467 a lot. 3m is over priced.for most things... But they are an adhesive company above anything else,.and they do adhesives great.

Weve never seen it be uneven on roll stock.. you'd think the issues you're seeing would be from the adhesive flatening out in one spot. Do you keep the rolls you use on its side, or do you keep it "hung" up by the core?

The 3m stuff can come in sheets as well, it's a bit more expensive than rolls... But might be worth it to see if that helps your issue.

I think you can buy both from uline (over priced) but you can buy small quantities for testing.

 

[RyanTischerPhoto]

In my experience of circles of print products such as your photography, I can say that I haven't seen a Kala being used. That's not to say they're inferior, but photo labs have been around a very long time and have used other brands with a long history of success.

I know most critical photography mounting requires rather high pressure using very even tension across the rollers and feed speed enough to pull out winding faults but not so much as to stretch the adhesive much differently from the print or substrate. How much confidence do you have in those specifics?

The Kala Mistral isn’t super high end, but it did run about $15,000, before freight, so it’s not a cheapo either. It’s self calibrating and has very precise automatic pressure settings. I don’t think it’s an issue with the machine itself, but possibly there could be something we’re doing wrong with settings, BUT we’re using exactly the settings we were told to use by a very experienced trainer that we paid to fly out and train us. He seemed to think we were doing everything right.

 

[RyanTischerPhoto]

If we store them flat we leave them in the boxes so that the roll core holders don’t let it lay on its side and squish anything. But even if we did it doesn’t explain why sometimes the flaws run the length of the roll.

 

[ColorCrest]

It’s self calibrating and has very precise automatic pressure settings.

This is suspect, IMO. I suppose this is first part of the process to verify.

I don’t think it’s an issue with the machine itself, but possibly there could be something we’re doing wrong with settings, BUT we’re using exactly the settings we were told to use by a very experienced trainer that we paid to fly out and train us. He seemed to think we were doing everything right

Of course, this could be the matter, or part, as well.

I can tell you that fine art photo finishers have been very successful with $4500 blue, manual laminator machines from China face mounting to acrylic with impeccable quality. DryTac and Neschen was / is the adhesive. FYI.

Are you mounting AND over laminating as a single step?

 

[RyanTischerPhoto]

We encapsulate the film first (simultaneously applying laminate to the face and adhesive to the back). Then we mount to ACM in the next step.

 

[RyanTischerPhoto]

This is suspect, IMO. I suppose this is first part of the process to verify.

We let it warm up to approx 105F then calibrate before before running anything through it.

 

[ColorCrest]

We encapsulate the film first (simultaneously applying laminate to the face and adhesive to the back). Then we mount to ACM in the next step

As a fine art photography product, yours is one I'm not familiar with. My first impression is one of the treatment of large paper maps for interior display which we don't seem to see much of any longer. Those did not necessarily require such demanding quality as expensive fine art.

Because you're laminating AND adhesive at the same time, that seems to be a process which a mass production line would use. That may not be in your best interest.

My first test would be to apply ONE layer to the film media to learn which way it curled, then the other layer separately on another print to learn which way it curled. A fair length may need to be used for the test to find any material defects of materials or tension.

 

[Snydo]

What about the possibility of shipping damage? I've seen similar deformations in rolls of vinyl and laminate occasionally and just assumed UPS or FedEx had their way with it the night before.

 

[ColorCrest]

We let it warm up to approx 105F then calibrate before before running anything through it.

Also, I personally don't know of any fine art / photo shops heating materials other than a few that offer a show-card poster / sign product with a budget over-laminate for display in public areas like malls and resorts. Again, just my experience.

 

[ColorCrest]

What about the possibility of shipping damage? I've seen similar deformations in rolls of vinyl and laminate occasionally and just assumed UPS or FedEx had their way with it the night before.

I've seen a surprising amount of adhesive full rolls with obvious tunneling which resulted in successful products. Rolls with actual hard creases are unacceptable for that section of the roll and I've seen very few of those.

 

[RyanTischerPhoto]

What about the possibility of shipping damage? I've seen similar deformations in rolls of vinyl and laminate occasionally and just assumed UPS or FedEx had their way with it the night before.

I suppose that’s possible, but if so the damage hasn’t been noticeable