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Wayfinding signs with lots of small acrylic letters best production method to adhere?

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FlyingSquirrelBrigade

New Member
Bit of a novel here but: I'm doing some wayfinding signage and the design client settled on Acrylic letters with back mounted vinyl (blue) mounted onto some brushed silver acm... we did a batch of 100 for one building and we used our router table to cut the acrylic letters to shape. There's 7-8 letters a piece so 800 letters. Our method was printing the outline of each letter to the ACM and then usually what we do is use double sided tape but the letters are small and peel that and applying it would take forever so we tried a double sided clear pressure sensitive adhesive and our test seemed to work for the most part. So we applied vinyl to the acrylic back, then applied the PSA to it and then cut it all out together so we just peel each letter and apply to the outline. (we ran the finished product through our laminator rolls to activate the psa) Out of the 100 signs i've had to replace about 4 letters that fell off so 0.5% failure rate . The process worked well for a couple of signs but at scale we ran into problems of the router bit starting to pull off the vinyl in places. Could be adhesive getting gummed up on the router bit or it dulling. Just wondering if anyone had some other ideas for production method? I've theorized maybe we could run the zund with a cutting blade first on the outline of everything and then cut with the router... but I also have concerns at the failure rate of the letters and have wondered if using a glue or something else might be better? We have a second batch coming up in a month.
 
G

GaSouthpaw

Profane and profane accessories.
Your method of mounting is the most efficient that I could think of this early in the morning, a third of the way into my coffee, with my router buzzing in the background. I'd also say yes- the adhesive could be "gumming up" the bit. Depending on how you're cutting, you could also be pulling the adhesive off as you're cutting.
My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to run the sheet- with the PSA applied- through your laminator prior to cutting so as to get it securely attached to the material (it might not be a terrible idea to scuff the surface of the acrylic before applying the PSA, too).
Then, if you're cutting the letters face up, make sure you're using an upcut bit. Face down, use a downcut bit.
 
N

netsol

Active Member
a periodic wiping of the router bit with a cloth saturated with. acetone or TCE to remove adhesive residue might help. (like wiping the adhesive residue from the sprokets of my gerber 4b)
 
Notarealsignguy

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Would a little dot of lexel or a similar adhesive work in conjunction with the adhesive back or maybe a higher tack adhesive sheeting?
 
Signarama Jockey

Signarama Jockey

New Member
Sounds to me like your method works well. I'm trying to think of a better way, and while I don't think this would be better, another way would be to do this like a push through. Route out everything except the letters out of a thicker piece of acrylic, about 3/4 of the depth of the material. Then, route the letters or numbers out the brushed aluminum. Take the aluminum and lay it onto the acrylic, then fill in the spaces where needed. You could use adhesive or tape or whatever you wanted at this point and save yourself the migraine. Slap the vinyl you like as the base layer on and you're good to go. The added bonus would be some dimensionality to the look of the letters, and I guarantee no letters will fall off. Lots of downsides - it is a lot of router time, and you'll still need to pick through a pile of weirdly shaped bits to find the inside of the characters and insert them one at a time (and good luck ever getting those out). Also, it would probably cost a lot more.

Anyway, throwing stuff at the wall in case any of it sticks.
 
F

FlyingSquirrelBrigade

New Member
Signarama Jockey said:
Sounds to me like your method works well. I'm trying to think of a better way, and while I don't think this would be better, another way would be to do this like a push through. Route out everything except the letters out of a thicker piece of acrylic, about 3/4 of the depth of the material. Then, route the letters or numbers out the brushed aluminum. Take the aluminum and lay it onto the acrylic, then fill in the spaces where needed. You could use adhesive or tape or whatever you wanted at this point and save yourself the migraine. Slap the vinyl you like as the base layer on and you're good to go. The added bonus would be some dimensionality to the look of the letters, and I guarantee no letters will fall off. Lots of downsides - it is a lot of router time, and you'll still need to pick through a pile of weirdly shaped bits to find the inside of the characters and insert them one at a time (and good luck ever getting those out). Also, it would probably cost a lot more.

Anyway, throwing stuff at the wall in case any of it sticks.
Click to expand...
That's a good idea... I think the letters would be too small for the application. The sharp corners would end up rounded which would be a significant departure from the earlier set. I do pushed through acrylic for backlit boxes but they're always so far away from people the rounded corners don't matter but these are like in tiny hallways. Well I think we'll stick with how we did it maybe try and clean the bit more often and pray for better luck.
 
pro-UP

pro-UP

New Member
I hope this isn't too long, but here you go:

Some similar projects that we have done with tools / materials you probably have access to.

1) Client wanted a word wall of small green glass acrylic letters over a custom textured laminate. I forget the exact measurements, but it was approx. 3/8" thick acrylic. We hogged off the area around the letters leaving a 1/8" background, 1/4" letters. Bonded the textured laminate to 1/8" acrylic sheet. Cut all the way through the laminate / acrylic layer for the letters to fit through. Not something you would want to try if your router does not have high repeatability as they were 3' x 4' panels. For your version paint the back of the acrylic panel blue to show through the clear face. Long process but letters cannot come off so it's the most reliable.

2) When you’re bonding large surface areas you can use tissue tape for an incredibly tough bond. Does not do well with small surface area jobs like you are describing. I mention it as tissue tape will cut cleanly with your router.

3) Thinner tapes will dry out faster and are harder to bond smaller letters. Your fail rate might also correspond with the how the tapes applied as certain tapes are weak in their extruded direction. We often used 3M clear VHB tape / trophy tape as it had enough thickness to provide some play in the letter. When the letter is under stress it either has to be able to move, crack or the tape has to give. I don't remember the thickness, but I think there was a 1/32 and 1/16 versions in 12" rolls. More durable than most tapes but you will also have to stick the letters down and trim the tape by hand with an x-acto.

4) While a solvent glue won’t work since it will eat the vinyl a UV glue might have enough exposed edge to work. My least favorite option, too many variables for repeatability.
 
R

Ryze Signs

New Member
I would go push through with painted CO2 laser cut letters and fiber laser cut aluminum faces. It's the only way to get sharp inside corners. It's also super fast because the aluminum face acts as a template to glue the letters to the backer. At that quantity it might be worth while to outsource all or part of the cutting to a shop with lasers. We outsource a lot of our printing and some install to other shops, and in exchange they outsource a lot of fabrication to us. We both make money by focusing on what we are good at, and have the machinery to produce.

If you want to continue with your method I would use a few dabs of epoxy such as lords adhesive along with the tape. You could possibly route some small shallow circles in your tape for the epoxy to be applied to for good adhesion. The tape then just holds the letter in place until the adhesive dries.
 
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R

rcali

New Member
I am kind of the designated letter installer at my shop, because no one really has the patients for it but me (read on to see why).

In my ideal world, we'd apply a sheet of double sided adhesive to the acrylic and cut it all at once on the bed, which is what I think you're saying is your method.
Second ideal: cut the letters on the cnc, cut an adhesive sheet on a plotter, peel one side of the sheet off and apply each letter to its adhesive outline. In my head this is nice because everything stays on this adhesive sheet for transport and there's no hunting for missing letters when at install.

The way its done at my place of employment:
Large letters get foam tape, hand cut into strips and hand applied to the back of each letter, with gaps to apply clear silicone at install.
Small letters get clear isotack, again, hand cut into strips and hand applied to the back of each letter with gaps for gel super glue at install.

Letters get painted here before adhesive is applied so there's no " stick the letter on adhesive and trace it with a blade" because though that would indeed be faster, it chips all the paint off so it cannot be done that way.

I agree with nestol's cleaning advice.
And if I am reading Signarama Jockey's answer correctly, I like that too, like ba is the stencil and the final product?
 
F

FlyingSquirrelBrigade

New Member
Ryze Signs said:
I would go push through with painted CO2 laser cut letters and fiber laser cut aluminum faces. It's the only way to get sharp inside corners. It's also super fast because the aluminum face acts as a template to glue the letters to the backer. At that quantity it might be worth while to outsource all or part of the cutting to a shop with lasers. We outsource a lot of our printing and some install to other shops, and in exchange they outsource a lot of fabrication to us. We both make money by focusing on what we are good at, and have the machinery to produce.

If you want to continue with your method I would use a few dabs of epoxy such as lords adhesive along with the tape. You could possibly route some small shallow circles in your tape for the epoxy to be applied to for good adhesion. The tape then just holds the letter in place until the adhesive dries.
Click to expand...
Can't laser cut the aluminum composite as its PVC on the inside and that gets your chlorine gas. Could paint the back of the acrylic and laser cut at an outside vendor but then the adhesive is on the paint and I have no idea how well the paint would bond to the acrylic and the adhesive... Maybe if there was budget for solid aluminum but there sure aint.
 
F

FlyingSquirrelBrigade

New Member
pro-up said:
I hope this isn't too long, but here you go:

Some similar projects that we have done with tools / materials you probably have access to.

1) Client wanted a word wall of small green glass acrylic letters over a custom textured laminate. I forget the exact measurements, but it was approx. 3/8" thick acrylic. We hogged off the area around the letters leaving a 1/8" background, 1/4" letters. Bonded the textured laminate to 1/8" acrylic sheet. Cut all the way through the laminate / acrylic layer for the letters to fit through. Not something you would want to try if your router does not have high repeatability as they were 3' x 4' panels. For your version paint the back of the acrylic panel blue to show through the clear face. Long process but letters cannot come off so it's the most reliable.

2) When you’re bonding large surface areas you can use tissue tape for an incredibly tough bond. Does not do well with small surface area jobs like you are describing. I mention it as tissue tape will cut cleanly with your router.

3) Thinner tapes will dry out faster and are harder to bond smaller letters. Your fail rate might also correspond with the how the tapes applied as certain tapes are weak in their extruded direction. We often used 3M clear VHB tape / trophy tape as it had enough thickness to provide some play in the letter. When the letter is under stress it either has to be able to move, crack or the tape has to give. I don't remember the thickness, but I think there was a 1/32 and 1/16 versions in 12" rolls. More durable than most tapes but you will also have to stick the letters down and trim the tape by hand with an x-acto.

4) While a solvent glue won’t work since it will eat the vinyl a UV glue might have enough exposed edge to work. My least favorite option, too many variables for repeatability.
Click to expand...
What do you mean you "hogged off" the area around the letters? This is a pushed through acrylic?

I'll look into tissue tape... haven't heard of that before. what do you usually use tissue tape for on substrates cut by the router?
 
JBurton

JBurton

Signtologist
3m 467mp is top tier. Leave it adhered to the top material for a day or two for optimal adhesion. Apply to the base material and cut soon after, it makes 'weeding' the top material off easier the faster its peeled.
 
R

Ryze Signs

New Member
FlyingSquirrelBrigade said:
Can't laser cut the aluminum composite as its PVC on the inside and that gets your chlorine gas. Could paint the back of the acrylic and laser cut at an outside vendor but then the adhesive is on the paint and I have no idea how well the paint would bond to the acrylic and the adhesive... Maybe if there was budget for solid aluminum but there sure aint.
Click to expand...
I glue the letters to an acrylic backer, mask the border for good adhesion to the aluminum face,then paint the letters and backer at the same time.

I've stopped using ACM except for rare occasions. I can cut 20 sheets of aluminum an hour with the laser. The time savings is worth way more than the difference in material cost.
 
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