Need Help 3m Ij180 Application Characteristics?

[koz]

Ok, here is the deal....We are attempting to apply 3M IJ180Cv3 to a vehicle. We started with the tailgate and doing my starting point down the middle took off part of the backing paper. As soon as the vinyl gently touched the metal, I tried to reposition, pulled on the vinyl, and a large tear occurred! The vinyl feels stiff, and not pliable at all.

It is 65 degrees right now, and the vinyl is sticking right away without pressure being applied. I thought this material was supposed to be pressure activated?

Here are some further details: The prints were made on a grand format HP Latex printer and then laminated using a heat-assist laminator set to around 100 degrees.

Any help, experience or knowledge you can provide to me is GREATLY appreciated!!

- Koz

 

[PrintTrader]

What was the lam used?

 

[Behrmon]

IJ180 is normally pretty pliable, it being stiff sounds like something is wrong before you've even started application. What lam and why the heat assist? How was the vehicle prepped? Tearing just from snapping back is not common for IJ180.

 

[koz]

Sorry for the omission everyone, the lam used was the matching lam for the IJ180Cv3 - it is 3M 8519 cast overlam.

 

[Behrmon]

8519 is our go to match for IJ180, have never used heat so cannot speak to whether that would have an affect but I'd doubt it would cause your vinyl to become brittle.

 

[equippaint]

We just applied some customer supplied decals (corporate account). Not sure what exactly it was except controltac with lam. It was miserable. Overly aggressive adhesive that when it touched the paint there was nothing repositionable about it. It was really stuck on the backing too. We couldnt squeegee any air out of it and it tore trying to get in in a groove. Weve applied a ton of controltac in the past with no issues although we use and prefer oracal.

Is it possible the laminate is applied with too much pressure and crushes the air channels and activates the adhesive before its applied?

 

[printhog]

Equippaint.. no. pressure will not prematurely activate the adhesive. The release liner prevents that.

3M 180 is able to withstand the 100 psi and 290 degree F lamination pressure of the old Scotchprint electrostatic process, which was immediately followed by a 40 psi laminate while the vinyl was still above 140F. It is the same vinyl and adhesive as 3M 8620 but without the estat receptive surface coating.

I've had some rolls that were defective that had aggressive adhesive like OP has described.

That the vinyl "tore" when trying to pop it off makes me think old stock, or mislabeled stock. Get the lot number of the roll and contact the distributor to check that lot with 3M.


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[asd]

I will post the pictures tomorrow before I remove the print from the tailgate and also post the pictures that will be reprinted in house on 3m ij180cv3 with 8518 overlaminate

 

[asd]

these are clean rips, no stretching or over pulling just tearing everywhere I tried to pull

 

[asd]

here are more images of the vinyl tearing up

 

[Jr Douglas Imaging]

here are more images of the vinyl tearing up
View attachment 127180 View attachment 127181

Looks like it was too cold and too tight and "popped" were you using primer?

 

[asd]

no primer, the temperature was at 65, the vinyl was being place on the surface of the vehicle no pressure being apply yet. even if temperature was below 65 applying vinyl at a colder temperature makes it harder to stick

 

[JoeRansom]

A few weeks ago I was using the same vinyl for a wrap and it stuck like it had permanent adhesive. We couldn't use it and had to reprint the job. Not only did it grab so hard but it wouldn't release air either.

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[GaSouthpaw]

Was the 65 the air temp, or the temp of the vehicle's panels?
I'd still think faulty, old, or mislabeled media, but the surface temp might play a factor.

 

[AKwrapguy]

So living in a northern climate I like yourself I have had issues like this before. The cracking/tearing/stifness is because the material has gone through too many temperature changes. After you laminating them did they go outside at any point for any length of time or into a colder part of the room? Usually I have the biggest issue when the vehicle it's self is too cold, how long do you let it warm up?

As far as the aggressive adhesive issue it sounds like the material was heated up too much (adhesive begins to liquefy), landed on the cold car (adhesive suddenly solidifies).

As far a being a pressure sensitive adhesive, this is a common misconception. While the material is pressure activated, the adhesive is not. From what I understand there are glass beads embedded into the adhesive, by applying pressure your pushing the beads into the adhesive.

Also if your rocking 8519 Luster as your lam why are you heating it? I could see heating gloss if your getting some silvering, but try turning the heat down to 80 or off completely.

Also turn up the heat in the install bay to 70ish.

 

[Mason Grubb]

Ok, here is the deal....We are attempting to apply 3M IJ180Cv3 to a vehicle. We started with the tailgate and doing my starting point down the middle took off part of the backing paper. As soon as the vinyl gently touched the metal, I tried to reposition, pulled on the vinyl, and a large tear occurred! The vinyl feels stiff, and not pliable at all.

It is 65 degrees right now, and the vinyl is sticking right away without pressure being applied. I thought this material was supposed to be pressure activated?

Here are some further details: The prints were made on a grand format HP Latex printer and then laminated using a heat-assist laminator set to around 100 degrees.

Any help, experience or knowledge you can provide to me is GREATLY appreciated!!

- Koz

We have started having the same issues with this film. Something changed a few years back and now this film is extremely hard to apply. Nothing changed on our end (profiles, printers, laminators, inks,environment etc) We have been in contact with 3M's local rep as well as corporate. We have been completely blown off. We sent in print samples with all our settings, profiles, info, for their testing. We have received no help. We let our prints gas off correctly even using downward air flow assist. We also are looking for any input since we have ran out of possible reasons for the problems. We have been in this business since the 80's and have used this film since it was developed and it definitely is a big problem now compared to the past. Installs, especially large wraps etc are extremely difficult. Sorry we don't have any help or input for you. We have multiple shops in our area experiencing the same problems, still 3M refused to acknowledge the problem. We have also tried their new 180MC wrap film and it's not much better, if fact we had to send 2 rolls back because it prints grainy. After not receiving any help from 3M we talked to our local suppliers (Sun Supply and Denco) and they mentioned that many shops are switching to Avery's 1105 SC EZ RS wrap film due to this issue. It has made our life so much easier. We have easy peal liner, low initial tack, air bubbles flow out easy, vinyl snaps back up and slides just like advertised. You might check it out!

 

[Chasez]

We have started having the same issues with this film. Something changed a few years back and now this film is extremely hard to apply. Nothing changed on our end (profiles, printers, laminators, inks,environment etc).

That's off because we just wrapped the exterior of an elevator with the materials and had no issues with materials at all in 2 different temp ranges (day 1 was 30C and day 2 was about 12C). Stuck with no issues at all but released when needed. Wrapped like a dream. Could just be a bad roll or some user error somewhere down the line (i'm not saying that you don't know what your doing but we all make mistakes).

Chaz

 

[Mason Grubb]

That's off because we just wrapped the exterior of an elevator with the materials and had no issues with materials at all in 2 different temp ranges (day 1 was 30C and day 2 was about 12C). Stuck with no issues at all but released when needed. Wrapped like a dream. Could just be a bad roll or some user error somewhere down the line (i'm not saying that you don't know what your doing but we all make mistakes).

Chaz

If it works for you that's great. I'm not a 3M hater although it would be nice if they would back their products, even our suppliers said they just have to eat their returns since 3M won't back them. I'm just trying to help out some people in our same position. There are tons of similar complaints out there. We still use their calendared and backlit films and laminates with no issues. Like I stated we have been doing this hands on for long enough to notice a remarkable difference. This is what we have found in our situation to make installs so much easier. If people want to compare and remove all the variables from inks, dry time, etc, use both films laminated and leave just white, unprinted, and notice the difference in ease of install.

 

[Chasez]

If it works for you that's great. I'm not a 3M hater although it would be nice if they would back their products, even our suppliers said they just have to eat their returns since 3M won't back them. I'm just trying to help out some people in our same position. There are tons of similar complaints out there. We still use their calendared and backlit films and laminates with no issues. Like I stated we have been doing this hands on for long enough to notice a remarkable difference. This is what we have found in our situation to make installs so much easier. If people want to compare and remove all the variables from inks, dry time, etc, use both films laminated and leave just white, unprinted, and notice the difference in ease of install.

We're all here to help, my comment was just to state that we just used the materials (yes there are tons of different variables) for a wrap, saying the temp didn't cause issues. It could be a run of material that is no good and why certain people are seeing the issues and others not. OR there could be some flaws in some processes that is causing an issue. I'm just playing both sides here because there are so many unknowns and it could be one or the other or even both.

Chaz

 

[AKwrapguy]

We just did a kit job that was sent to us and they used the new 180 MC and it started curling back on some of the edges after a few weeks so we had to reprinted it on to 180CV3. Not quite what the issues was but going to wait till they get the kinks before we switch.