3M40c Peeling

[KC1990]

I've used 3M 40c paired with 8509 laminate for years and never had an issue with it on flat surfaces.
Vehicles are a different story. Especially work/service trucks. Here's a photo of what happens.
This started 6 months or so after decal application and got worse over the course of 12 months.
Customer stated it started on one side and the other side started lifting later on.
Cleaned and prepped surface with 99% Isopropyl before applying.

I am in Alberta Canada which can get to very cold temperatures -40°~ and the summer months +35°~

I've since switched to a Metamark MDC cast vinyl & laminate for some peace of mind.
It's a bit of an off-brand but even it is increasing in price.
I am not happy with the overall print quality of Metamark with our Roland VG540 (No profiles available for our machine).

I don't think I should need a cast vinyl & laminate for basic trucks like these, but I've been wrong before!
Looking for opinions on what may be causing this, or a recommendation for a calendared vinyl that will give my clients a couple of years at least.

Appreciate any insight, TIA!

 

[Boudica]

40C is a removable adhesive.

 

[KC1990]

Thanks Boudica. I am aware.
It appears a little too "Removable" considering it's rated for flat vehicle use.

 

[Modern Ink Signs]

NEVER USE CALANDERED VINYL ON VEHICLES!

At least that is my opinion and what we do in my shop. The cost savings to you is MINIMAL for a project like that.


Your issue may or may not be material related. Hard to tell from just picture. Many other factors…..

 

[CanuckSigns]

Judging by the photo, it looks like the laminate is causing the curling, how long after printing did you wait to laminate? Also check the tension on your laminator, it could be too high and causing the laminate to stretch when applied and then it shrinks and does this.

Also, I've had issues with 40c in the past, installed on a glass door, the edges started peeling about a year later, it is a removal le adhesive, but it seems to sometimes be self-removing.

If you are looking for a cost effective replacement , look at either automark by general formulations, or Arlon 4600lx.

 

[Boudica]

Did you ask them how they clean the vehicle? One high pressure wash would do, especially on a lower tac removable vinyl. Ij40 is like a mixture of cast and calendared, and it's more expensive than it's permanent calendared sibling Ij35-c. Just think ahead though.... You don't want to be the guy that has to remove calendared graphics in a few years.
So many reasons to be using vinyl designed for vehicle graphics... When producing quality vehicle graphics.

 

[KC1990]

NEVER USE CALANDERED VINYL ON VEHICLES!

At least that is my opinion and what we do in my shop. The cost savings to you is MINIMAL for a project like that.


Your issue may or may not be material related. Hard to tell from just picture. Many other factors…..

Have to agree. A fella needs to be able to stand behind his work. Appreciate your input!

 

[KC1990]

Judging by the photo, it looks like the laminate is causing the curling, how long after printing did you wait to laminate? Also check the tension on your laminator, it could be too high and causing the laminate to stretch when applied and then it shrinks and does this.

Also, I've had issues with 40c in the past, installed on a glass door, the edges started peeling about a year later, it is a removal le adhesive, but it seems to sometimes be self-removing.

If you are looking for a cost effective replacement , look at either automark by general formulations, or Arlon 4600lx

THIS! I thought the laminate looked like the culprit too! I'll take a look at the tension. I don't think i'll go back to 40c either way, so thank you for the material suggestions.

 

[DL Signs]

Has it had a ceramic coating applied? That's usually what you end up with.
Everyone and their brother today, even dealers are ceramic coating everything on the lot, including brand new cars & trucks, boats, trailers, RV's... You get a vehicle, don't even know it's had one applied, lay your vinyl, and it starts coming off in short order. Even the best vinyl & PPF films won't stick long if you don't totally abate a ceramic coating first, and that's not easy to do. There is no one chemical that'll take it off, it has to be mechanically buffed off, the high end coatings, when fresh, may even need to be wet sanded first.

 

[KC1990]

Has it had a ceramic coating applied? That's usually what you end up with.
Everyone and their brother today, even dealers are ceramic coating everything on the lot, including brand new cars & trucks, boats, trailers, RV's... You get a vehicle, don't even know it's had one applied, lay your vinyl, and it starts coming off in short order. Even the best vinyl & PPF films won't stick long if you don't totally abate a ceramic coating first, and that's not easy to do. There is no one chemical that'll take it off, it has to be mechanically buffed off, the high end coatings, when fresh, may even need to be wet sanded first.

It's possible. If I get the chance to ask I will. Thanks for your insight!

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Has it had a ceramic coating applied? That's usually what you end up with.
Everyone and their brother today, even dealers are ceramic coating everything on the lot, including brand new cars & trucks, boats, trailers, RV's... You get a vehicle, don't even know it's had one applied, lay your vinyl, and it starts coming off in short order. Even the best vinyl & PPF films won't stick long if you don't totally abate a ceramic coating first, and that's not easy to do. There is no one chemical that'll take it off, it has to be mechanically buffed off, the high end coatings, when fresh, may even need to be wet sanded first.

That's stuffs brutal. I doubt that vinyl would have even stuck for this long. Last one we got you could hardly get the transfer tape off the vinyl without pulling it up. Pretty sure the lettering fell off before the guy even got out of the parking lot.

 

[White Haus]

For vehicles we'll only use 3M IJ180cv3 + 3M 8418G. (Even for smaller shape cut graphics)

3M 40C is good for wall wraps, but we don't use it for anything else.

3M 8509..................I don't like it or use it.

I think it's a combination of a few things that's causing this issues, as already mentioned. Material, ink load/no offgassing, and/or possibly tension on laminator.

I would be confident in saying if you printed on IJ180cv3, waited at least 24 hours before laminating w/ 8518 or 8418G and cutting, and installed on a properly prepped vehicle that the vinyl would look exactly the same 5 years later. (Assuming client doesn't abuse the vehicle and washes regularly)

 

[DL Signs]

That's stuffs brutal. I doubt that vinyl would have even stuck for this long. Last one we got you could hardly get the transfer tape off the vinyl without pulling it up. Pretty sure the lettering fell off before the guy even got out of the parking lot.

There are different grades, the DIY and lower end kits vinyl might stick to, but usually not long term. The professional stuff is near impossible to remove, and vinyl will usually fail within months. Ceramic is big business up here with all the road salts used in winter, everyone is using it, and even the cheapest spray-on/ wipe-off with ceramic doesn't come off easy. Just making our jobs more difficult. I'll buff panels for spot graphics & lettering if it has the lower end stuff (for a price), I send people with the pro stuff applied down the road, or come back when they have it professionally removed. None get any guarantees.

A wrap shop down the road showed me a car that came in to see if he could do anything with a failing PPF job, the customer had a professional ceramic job done on his brand new car, then took it into another shop for PPF. It was on for 2-3 months, and peeled off as easy as plastic liners on a sheet of ACM.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

There are different grades, the DIY and lower end kits vinyl might stick to, but usually not long term. The professional stuff is near impossible to remove, and vinyl will usually fail within months. Ceramic is big business up here with all the road salts used in winter, everyone is using it, and even the cheapest spray-on/ wipe-off with ceramic doesn't come off easy. Just making our jobs more difficult. I'll buff panels for spot graphics & lettering if it has the lower end stuff (for a price), I send people with the pro stuff applied down the road, or come back when they have it professionally removed. None get any guarantees.

A wrap shop down the road showed me a car that came in to see if he could do anything with a failing PPF job, the customer had a professional ceramic job done on his brand new car, then took it into another shop for PPF. It was on for 2-3 months, and peeled off as easy as plastic liners on a sheet of ACM.

It's a fad that will fade away. Cars today don't have old lacquer paint jobs that need constant waxing or coatings to keep them shiny. Clearcoat on modern cars doesnt need all this, that was part of the beauty of the 2 stage process when manufacturers first moved to it. For what PPF film costs, you could reshoot your bumper a few times before you broke even. Maybe it's good if you live in an area with an ungodly amount of stones on the road but you really don't see many or any cars with geeked up paint jobs just from every day driving. Remember when every car had a bra on it to protect the paint? Glad that fad faded away.