Suggestions 4x8 Flatbed printer replacement

[White Haus]

We're having to potentially replace our aging Arizona 318gl with something new and hopefully faster.

Here are my hopes and dreams:

-Ideally around/under $100k USD all in
-4' x 8' bed
-CMYK or CMYKW (No need for Lm Lc or V but will take it if we have to)
-Hoping to get 8+ boards / hour in production mode
-Mainly used to print coroplast, with occasional use for PVC, foamcore, Gatorfoam, acrylic etc.
-Inkset needs to cover fingerprints/surface imperfections well, while being soft enough for occasional CNC cutting after printing without chipping
-Ideally field upgradeable to add more heads for increased throughput down the road
-Local (Canadian) sales, support etc.

Contenders so far:

Mimaki JFX200-2513EX
Vanguard VR5

Interested in learning more about:
Fluid Color
Stratojet
SOVA
Keundo
EFI

Am I missing anything? Anyone here able to refer Canadian dealers for Fluid, Stratojet, Keundo assuming any of their offerings might fit the bill?

Regarding field upgradeable printers, any success stories of buying entry level 4/5 head printers then adding heads for extra capacity down the road? I know it's not an option from all manufacturers, like Mimaki unfortunately.

Thanks.

 

[Gregg Lindsay]

Roland EU1000MF is in that sweet spot price range

 

[signheremd]

All inks will have some issue with fingerprints - the oils from them cause deflection of the droplets. For painted MDO we get past that by printing a 1-hit white base. For ACM we buy Digital Ready ACM and just strip the masking off and print without ever touching it. To clean older ACM, Aluminum, and to clean Coroplast we use either Solv S1000 (if you can find it) or Matthews Paint Plastic Prep which we get from Grimco - in either case, try to final wipe all in one direction as straight as you can and let it dry for 30 seconds or more before printing (if you look carefully you will be able to see it evaporate). We can't say enough good about our FluidColor. Ricoh Gen 6 heads are fast and have held up to 6 years of daily printing - quality is excellent. we choose CMYKW and have room to add additional CMYK heads if needed. If you have the volume and a need for speed, spend the extra 10-12K for the additional heads. Point of note - if you are printing black or other dark colors fingerprints are not an issue, if you are printing pastels, grays, light blues, then panel prep is very important (cleaning or using digital ready, peeling mask without touching the print surface).

 

[White Haus]

Roland EU1000MF is in that sweet spot price range

What are actual output numbers though? This is the only mention of speed on the whole page/brochure:


Assuming that's in Express/Draft mode if they're not mentioning any other numbers

 

[White Haus]

All inks will have some issue with fingerprints - the oils from them cause deflection of the droplets. For painted MDO we get past that by printing a 1-hit white base. For ACM we buy Digital Ready ACM and just strip the masking off and print without ever touching it. To clean older ACM, Aluminum, and to clean Coroplast we use either Solv S1000 (if you can find it) or Matthews Paint Plastic Prep which we get from Grimco - in either case, try to final wipe all in one direction as straight as you can and let it dry for 30 seconds or more before printing (if you look carefully you will be able to see it evaporate). We can't say enough good about our FluidColor. Ricoh Gen 6 heads are fast and have held up to 6 years of daily printing - quality is excellent. we choose CMYKW and have room to add additional CMYK heads if needed. If you have the volume and a need for speed, spend the extra 10-12K for the additional heads. Point of note - if you are printing black or other dark colors fingerprints are not an issue, if you are printing pastels, grays, light blues, then panel prep is very important (cleaning or using digital ready, peeling mask without touching the print surface).

Glad to hear you've been happy with your FluidColor printer, thanks for your feedback.

We've struggled with surface prep and fingerprints for 12 years so I'm far too familiar with it. Alcohol/water potions, Matthews Plastic Prep, etc etc.

You don't have have to prep 4mm coroplast do you? That's the main thing we need to print, nothing else matters as much. Even with our finicky 256 inkset on the Canon/Oce we've had pretty good success pulling fresh sheets of corona-treated coroplast off a skid. Anything else is a crapshoot and requires prepping, and will usually still show streaks/surface marks in lighter colors.

 

[signheremd]

Glad to hear you've been happy with your FluidColor printer, thanks for your feedback.

We've struggled with surface prep and fingerprints for 12 years so I'm far too familiar with it. Alcohol/water potions, Matthews Plastic Prep, etc etc.

You don't have have to prep 4mm coroplast do you? That's the main thing we need to print, nothing else matters as much. Even with our finicky 256 inkset on the Canon/Oce we've had pretty good success pulling fresh sheets of corona-treated coroplast off a skid. Anything else is a crapshoot and requires prepping, and will usually still show streaks/surface marks in lighter colors.

If we buy our coroplast from the big G, we definitely clean it with one of the two cleaners I mentioned, wiping in the direction of the flutes. If we buy from Harbor, we do not need to do so. For some reason ink sticks better to the second, so shows there is more than one quality level in coroplast. We can't see the difference, but the ink knows... We also love paper based foam core - we run a tack roller over it for dust, but never an issue with ink adhering or finger prints.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Chiming in on the Mimaki side of things on the JFX200 EX. If you're not planning on doing white/clear (or god forbid the cursed liquid that is primer), the original JFX200 running in dual CMYK is just as good. The EX just has 3 4-channel heads instead of 2. The third of which is the offset head, typically reserved for spot colors.

On the used market (if that is an option in your case), you can typically land a good JFX200 for around $10-15K and they're a common model that's still well supported. That said, both the regular JFX200 and the EX are a bit dated on their choice of heads. They lack any ability to [technically, without serious mods] add more heads. They are also a bit slow compared to something like a maxed-out Vanguard. I both run and repair the JFX200 (no longer run an EX), and they tend to be pretty easy to keep happy. That said, if you don't have an in-house techie type, you're entirely at the mercy of whatever dealer you're stuck with. But that's more of an industry issue than a brand one. Aftermarket inks on the Mimaki are also pretty good as their chips have been cracked for about a decade at this point and the price tends to be some of the lowest for anything UV.

 

[MarkSnelling]

What are actual output numbers though? This is the only mention of speed on the whole page/brochure:

View attachment 182790
Assuming that's in Express/Draft mode if they're not mentioning any other numbers

As a Roland distributor, I say this with love....and a little humor....you time those units with a calendar, not a stop watch.

 

[White Haus]

As a Roland distributor, I say this with love....and a little humor....you time those units with a calendar, not a stop watch.

That's what I figured, and why I've never considered Roland in my search.

 

[White Haus]

If we buy our coroplast from the big G, we definitely clean it with one of the two cleaners I mentioned, wiping in the direction of the flutes. If we buy from Harbor, we do not need to do so. For some reason ink sticks better to the second, so shows there is more than one quality level in coroplast. We can't see the difference, but the ink knows... We also love paper based foam core - we run a tack roller over it for dust, but never an issue with ink adhering or finger prints.

There definitely is a big difference in coroplast brands. We eventually need to get to a point where we can pull from full, sealed skids and not worry about fingerprints/scratches though.

 

[MarkSnelling]

A Fluid Color with 2 rows of Gen 6 CMYK will set you back around $110K and get you around 12 boards an hour in 6 pass which is kind of the sweet spot for those units. Much faster in express and high speed. I don't know where in Canada you are and that could have an impact if you are out in the sticks somewhere hard to get to. The unit sells for around $102,800, plus another $5K for installation and training then add delivery.

You would be able to add white heads or another row of print heads at any time...just buy the heads and pay for the labor to put them in.

They do have a demo unit belt-drive model that is on clearance. it is only a 2 row machine but would get you the same speeds as above and save you some money. Let me know if you want to have a conversation or set up a demo (virtual or at their office which is right next to the Cincinnati airport).

 

[White Haus]

Chiming in on the Mimaki side of things on the JFX200 EX. If you're not planning on doing white/clear (or god forbid the cursed liquid that is primer), the original JFX200 running in dual CMYK is just as good. The EX just has 3 4-channel heads instead of 2. The third of which is the offset head, typically reserved for spot colors.

On the used market (if that is an option in your case), you can typically land a good JFX200 for around $10-15K and they're a common model that's still well supported. That said, both the regular JFX200 and the EX are a bit dated on their choice of heads. They lack any ability to [technically, without serious mods] add more heads. They are also a bit slow compared to something like a maxed-out Vanguard. I both run and repair the JFX200 (no longer run an EX), and they tend to be pretty easy to keep happy. That said, if you don't have an in-house techie type, you're entirely at the mercy of whatever dealer you're stuck with. But that's more of an industry issue than a brand one. Aftermarket inks on the Mimaki are also pretty good as their chips have been cracked for about a decade at this point and the price tends to be some of the lowest for anything UV.

Thanks for your input. It's too bad that you can't get the dual-CMYK option anymore - that would be just right for us I think. Personally I don't want to run Lc Lm W or V but it seems like that's the route that we would go with he EX.
Price is right and if it behaves anything like the UCJV we've been running for 5 years I think it might be a good option. Not a speed demon by any stretch but will be faster than what we're replacing, we currently only run around 4 boards/hour on our Arizona. I'd like to consider myself moderately handy and have replaced parts on our Rolands, Mimaki, Oce, Epson over the years. Nothing crazy but I'm not afraid to pull my sleeves up and tinker rather than pay for an overpriced service contract.

I think the comparison against a maxed-out Vanguard might be unfair....lol. Perhaps JFX600 would be a fair contender? I'm still waiting for numbers on a 4 head VR5 to see how that compares to the EX.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

If I had the floor space, I would snag 2 JFX200s and use the difference for spare parts fund. But I am also a goofball who finds the things easy to work on.

 

[flyplainsdrifta]

There definitely is a big difference in coroplast brands. We eventually need to get to a point where we can pull from full, sealed skids and not worry about fingerprints/scratches though.

If you are in Canada, I would suggest Matraplast Brand corro. We by full skids of 4mm 48x96, 50x98, and 48x96 short grain skids from them and are factory wrapped with minimal fingerprints, usually none past the first 3 sheets on a skid of 275. also considerably less issue and no strong odors(looking at you inteplast). Highly suggest looking into them for bulk corro. Their tolerances are usually a bit tighter than other competing brands with more consistent white point.

 

[White Haus]

If I had the floor space, I would snag 2 JFX200s and use the difference for spare parts fund. But I am also a goofball who finds the things easy to work on.

Do you know when they stopped making them?

 

[White Haus]

If you are in Canada, I would suggest Matraplast Brand corro. We by full skids of 4mm 48x96, 50x98, and 48x96 short grain skids from them and are factory wrapped with minimal fingerprints, usually none past the first 3 sheets on a skid of 275. also considerably less issue and no strong odors(looking at you inteplast). Highly suggest looking into them for bulk corro. Their tolerances are usually a bit tighter than other competing brands with more consistent white point.

Thanks for this. 50x98 would be great for printing full sheets w/ marks. Looked into getting them from a different manufacturer a few years back but was cost prohibitive.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Do you know when they stopped making them?

I've seen models dating until at least 2021, that said, they share TONS of parts with the EX. Head assemblies are slightly different as well, but just in the choice of fittings/subtanks. Most units are 2016-2019 that I see, but I do out of warranty work.

 

[White Haus]

I've seen models dating until at least 2021, that said, they share TONS of parts with the EX. Head assemblies are slightly different as well, but just in the choice of fittings/subtanks. Most units are 2016-2019 that I see, but I do out of warranty work.

Just came across this one: https://www.globalgarage.com/listings/8932040-used-2023-mimaki-jfx200-2513

Are heads staggered on these, so if you went to dual CMYK it would double the output or not quite?

Edited to add:
Or.........we could just get one of these and speed will never be a concern again: https://www.globalgarage.com/listings/8917997-used-2022-mimaki-jfx600-2513

 

[White Haus]

A Fluid Color with 2 rows of Gen 6 CMYK will set you back around $110K and get you around 12 boards an hour in 6 pass which is kind of the sweet spot for those units. Much faster in express and high speed. I don't know where in Canada you are and that could have an impact if you are out in the sticks somewhere hard to get to. The unit sells for around $102,800, plus another $5K for installation and training then add delivery.

You would be able to add white heads or another row of print heads at any time...just buy the heads and pay for the labor to put them in.

They do have a demo unit belt-drive model that is on clearance. it is only a 2 row machine but would get you the same speeds as above and save you some money. Let me know if you want to have a conversation or set up a demo (virtual or at their office which is right next to the Cincinnati airport).

Good to know, thanks. When you say belt-drive, it's a hybrid? I've only looked at the HP R530 so far on the hybrid side of things, but I think we would miss the true flatbed too much.

 

[Smoke_Jaguar]

Heads are staggered, so it's like printing with one really wide head when running dual CMYK. Price isn't terrible considering the age. Swapping to dual CMYK isn't terrible either, just need to flush out the white mostly. Clear ink is easy since it's just ink minus pigment.