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Adobe - Changes coming to the Pantone Color Libraries

ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
While color libraries with LAB input values are also used with CM to generate output values which for the most part are very accurate until you push the gamut limits of the ICC output profile for printer media combustion.
If, for some reason, there is more gamut available beyond an ICC output profile, that would mean either the profile is suboptimal or the workflow is faulty.
EDITED TO CORRECT TYPOS ON MY PART.

Beyond that specifying direct output values in a color library can be very useful to gain gamut and print higher gamut colors than CM will allow.
See above. A well made ICC output profile does not limit color gamut in any way.
EDITED TO CORRECT OMISSION ON MY PART.
This is were printing a color chart where CMYK output values are specified and then allowing you to choose the CMYK values that best match the color your trying to match becomes very useful.
Where would the specified CMYK value on any chart come from?

This is were setting the RIP input value in the design program to a named spot color that is in the a RIP color library instead or a CMYK or LAB equivalent comes into play allow you to bypass CM for that color and send the specified CMYK output values to the printer to best emulate that color from any color library not just Pantone.
If anyone needs to tweak any more than 2-3 colors on a single profile setup, and certainly any more than 2 profile setups, I would say they really need to reevaluate how the entire workflow and color management is setup, and especially basic calibration with ongoing quality control.
 
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Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Adobe says they're working on solutions to the Pantone issue. Meanwhile there are several other color book libraries likely to remain in Illustrator. Adobe could create its own process and spot color standard. I'm not sure what Pantone or anyone else could do to prevent such a thing from happening.

rjsigns said:
Adobe can get bent. Don't care if it's the so called "industry standard". They've gone downhill rapidly ever since the debut of their subscription model.

Adobe's stock price sure hasn't gone downhill. It has been on a steep uphill climb ever since the debut of Creative Cloud. Their stock price was fairly stagnant before that. I wish I would have bought some stock in the company back then.

As to who is deserving to "get bent," X-Rite appears to be the bad guy in this situation.

rjsigns said:
BTW I own both Affinity programs and Flexi. No monthly BS.

I have Affinity Designer too, the Windows and iPad version. It's decent for affordable vector graphics software. But it's not an acceptable substitute for Adobe Illustrator or even CorelDRAW. Too many missing features.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
This reminds me of the Directv and Dish disputes with certain channels. Both companies are making money hand over fist yet neither side can be normal and give a little. That is the flaw with publicly traded companies, they always have to grow profits
 

Asuma01

New Member
Pantone Color Manager, at least for some indefinite period, remains as the best path for batch downloading of L*a*b* values for Pantone fan decks. If you have an I1 spectro, you are
licenesed to use Pantone Color Manager. Pantone is trying to get everyone migrated to their monthly extortion service known as Pantone Connect, where you can look at individual
swatches for L*a*b* numbers, but cannot do full fan deck batch downloads.

As for spot color device ink build optimization, if you own a version of GretagMacBeth Profilemaker, you have a tool available known as Colorpicker which can take a palette of
colors(like Pantone fan decks) and produce optimized device ink builds given an ICC output profile for the media you are working with. A device ink build is the combination of
CMYK with any extended gamut inks(O, G, V, R) used to print the spot color., The modern follow-on product with this same capability is Colorlogic's Colorant L,
You mean this discontinued software?
 

dypinc

New Member
If, for some reason, there is more gamut available beyond an ICC output profile, the would mea either the profile is suboptimal or the workflow is faulty.


See above. A well made ICC output profile does limit color gamut in any way.


Where would the specified CMYK value on any chart come from?


If anyone needs to tweak any more than 2-3 colors on a single profile setup, and certainly any more than 2 profile setups, I would say they really need to reevaluate how the entire workflow and color management is setup, and especially basic calibration with ongoing quality control.
Maybe I did not make myself clear on emulating spot colors uses device output values in color libraries.

There was a time when I thought like you but after testing output values in color libraries it became readily apparent that more (gamut wise) could be gotten out of digital presses and inkjet by specifying output values. There is a reason that some printer manufactures supply Pantone Color Emulation libraries to the RIPs.

It sure appears you have not tested this or have real world experience using device output values and think ICC profiles are everything or you would not have made the statements you did.
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
So my Adobe products like CS6 that I still use will have the panatone library and the new after March won’t have it. Now that’s irony.
Affinity is my new software that does not have the crap that Adobe hands out.
And my Panatone book is older than most of the people on here and is laid out with lower numbers to higher.
 

ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
There was a time when I thought like you but after testing output values in color libraries it became readily apparent that more (gamut wise) could be gotten out of digital presses and inkjet by specifying output values.
Again, a well made ICC output profile does not limit color gamut in any way. Many of the colors in the print target stress the printer / ink / media combination to their maximums @ 100%. Care to explain what further gamut is available beyond 100%?

It sure appears you have not tested this or have real world experience using device output values and think ICC profiles are everything or you would not have made the statements you did.
My real world experience of using device output values was well exercised before ICC profiles were in use. Anywhere.
 

bteifeld

Substratia Consulting,Printing,Ergosoft Reseller
You mean this discontinued software?
Yes. It is still available for download and it still connects to Pantone Live for
updates
You mean this discontinued software?
 

dypinc

New Member
Again, a well made ICC output profile does not limit color gamut in any way. Many of the colors in the print target stress the printer / ink / media combination to their maximums @ 100%. Care to explain what further gamut is available beyond 100%?


My real world experience of using device output values was well exercised before ICC profiles were in use. Anywhere.

It is kind of pointless to continue this debate as it is beyond discussing Adobe now longer including Pantone Color Libraries.

You're going to believe what ever you want to believe but there is a reason RIPs include the ability to create color charts with CMYK device output values for updating or making new color libraries.
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
I'm unclear as to what this means, will Adobe just remove the swatches from their products but you can still specify specific pantone numbers manually? Or will you need to pay just to be able to use the pantone system?
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
CS6, that's almost 10 years old right? That version will surely be safe, unless adobe releases a "security patch" or some bs that windows automatically installs for you...
Well I won't worry about Window patches because I am a Mac user.
I can imagine the confusion for graphic people in the print industry in picking colors from now on. It would not surprise me that Adobe is going to come out with a competition to Pantone colors with their own color codes. Something else to rent from them.
 

rjssigns

Active Member
So my Adobe products like CS6 that I still use will have the panatone library and the new after March won’t have it. Now that’s irony.
Affinity is my new software that does not have the crap that Adobe hands out.
And my Panatone book is older than most of the people on here and is laid out with lower numbers to higher.
Affinity for the win, but some claim "it lacks features".

What are those features in CC on which you have become totally dependent?
What did you do before those features were available?

I bought Affinity Photo during Black Friday. Running it through all the things I normally do with Photoshop and it performed without a hitch.
The built in upscaling is quite good too. Used it to scale a raster image for a banner.

Adobe painted themselves into a corner by going SaaS. The folks shelling out money every month expect value in return. In my opinion this leads Adobe to do stupid things and release buggy "updates" to justify their business model.

When my wife was doing design and layout she never worked with anything more than CS5 or Flexi. Yet she managed crush it, oftentimes selling her work on sites like iStock, Dreamstime etc... Vector work, photography she can do it all. And she did it with "antiquated" software.

Conclusion: If you're someone who has no design sense the best software with all the "features" in the world ain't gonna save ya.
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
Well I won't worry about Window patches because I am a Mac user.
I can imagine the confusion for graphic people in the print industry in picking colors from now on. It would not surprise me that Adobe is going to come out with a competition to Pantone colors with their own color codes. Something else to rent from them.
I've had a number of clients come to me recently with logo and branding packages off Fiverr, their branding package only specifies RGB, CMYK and LAB values for the colours, they couldn't grasp why I told them I have no way of knowing if I'm printing the correct colour, they brought in some business cards and flyers for me to use to match to, and none of them matched at all, so I realized they don't care and Just printed it.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Adobe's stock price sure hasn't gone downhill. It has been on a steep uphill climb ever since the debut of Creative Cloud. Their stock price was fairly stagnant before that. I wish I would have bought some stock in the company back then.
They have also been buying up more and more product as well. Getting into more things (more in the 3D realm it seems) and they are taking the big fish of those parts. Substance suite being the big one that would affect me (although if you get it from Steam, it appears to still be the traditional license, and they have maintained the Linux version it appears as well, which I'm surprised). That has helped them as well. There isn't much competition in that regard. Armor Paint, is really the only one that I know and while being open source, it does still cost (but a whole lot cheaper compared to Substance Painter. Can't forget to, I believe that they have cloud marketing analytics (gotta love telemetry) that they get a good bit of scratch from as well.

Adobe painted themselves into a corner by going SaaS. The folks shelling out money every month expect value in return. In my opinion this leads Adobe to do stupid things and release buggy "updates" to justify their business model.
It has become more iterative and not so much innovative (not that it is totally devoid of it, just not like it once was and that isn't surprising given it's age, which also feeds into why going into the subscription plan as well). People have gotten overjoyed with some updates that have been asked for years or decade(s) even. There are two methods of still staying relevant. New features or buy other products to expand that way. Both only go so far for so long.

I have a feeling that legacy files and not really wanting to learn a new software package, that may have the same features, but just performed a different way (not all the time, sometimes it's still not there, but I have to wonder how much has to do with learning new software) are the biggest thing. But also can't discount the whole "get what you pay for" mentality that isn't always true. More often, it probably is (at least 51% of the time) but not always.


Here is the thing, Adobe pulling stuff at their discretion and the user having to lump it regardless, that's just par for the course. Regardless if they were or were not the instigators that led to them pulling those files out of the program. The joys of being on rolling release software. And this is the joys with any SaaS type of software. Have to realize that no software vendor writes 100% of their code. Some blob of code is licensed out at some point. Can see those that require attribution usually in the Help->About [Program]. Not all are there, sometimes when paying for the commercial license, don't have to mention that it uses x code in there. For the end user, it really don't matter who instigates the process that gets a blob of code that they my use from getting removed.

I have to wonder how many people are going to see about pulling those old color swatches and see if it can be just dragged and dropped into the new version. Do have to worry about them getting dated, but that may not bother some as it would others. Only real downside is that probably have to repeat this process with each update as each update will probably look for those files to delete. Of course, does it report that it is still having to delete those files when it does the update as well? Again, gotta love telemetry. This as been a long time coming and end users have let it happen, can't logically go crying about it now.
 

visual800

Active Member
PMS does not dictate your life. Come as close you can and deal with it. When a company is spreading their PMS colors to all sorts of signage and branding and tshirts, cards, brochures etc....EVERY item will come back different. I wouldnt stress it
 

ikarasu

Active Member
The swatches in adobe are outdated already (Well, they were last time I checked). There were a few pantones I couldn't find...so I downloaded the pantone library from X-rite, imported it into illustrator... And then they were there.

Download Pantone color manager... if you have an Xrite, its licensed for free. If not...click begin trial. Click update pantone fan deck... it should update to V4 (I believe V2 is whats in illustrator... Maybe V3 with the latest cloud version?) Then click File > Export > illustrator or photoshop.


If you guys did a bit of googling...you'll see this is one of the reasons theyre removing the pre-loaded versions.

"
Marcie Foster, Pantone director of brand management and marketing communication, responded and said Adobe and Pantone “have been and continue to be long standing partners”.

“Unfortunately, the current implementation of the Pantone library within Adobe’s Creative Cloud apps are outdated with many missing colors as well as inaccurate information. In order to provide the best user experience for our users, the companies together have decided to remove the outdated libraries and continue to collaborate on a better in-app experience. "

I highly doubt thats the only reason, it's probably licensing related... I'm sure both are trying to leverage eachother for better fees. I dont think pantone will go anywhere though. Theres an adobe app you can use to automatically update and get access to 15K Pantones...and pay a $50 monthly fee for the rest as well as free updates for the newest pantones. That could be the way theyre going forward.... Then adobe doesn't license it, and pantone makes some money for every user who needs to use it.

There are many ways this could go down... I highly doubt they'll limit pantone access though... That would hurt both companies. And if Adobe did that to pantone... Pantone would/could just license their product for dirt cheap to corel, and corel would gain a huge market share of adobes customers... As prelevant as adobe is... I'd say pantone is on equal footing. They both stand to lose too much by shutting the other out, so I'm sure next week, or sometime before march they'll announce something.... likely a price hike to cover the extra fees they have!
 

ikarasu

Active Member
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14nnWfDJFDOUDlWee3oCciQZHUIrJIoAx/view?usp=sharing And here is a link to the V4 file if you guys dont feel like generating it yourself. It has almost 30% more pantone colors than the one included in adobe.. I can't see adobe removing their whole color book system, so as long as files like this can be exported, I don't see how pantones will be going away for anyone except the average user who doesnt care to export / import them.... which admittedly is a big chunk of people.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
If you guys did a bit of googling...you'll see this is one of the reasons theyre removing the pre-loaded versions.

"
Marcie Foster, Pantone director of brand management and marketing communication, responded and said Adobe and Pantone “have been and continue to be long standing partners”.

“Unfortunately, the current implementation of the Pantone library within Adobe’s Creative Cloud apps are outdated with many missing colors as well as inaccurate information. In order to provide the best user experience for our users, the companies together have decided to remove the outdated libraries and continue to collaborate on a better in-app experience. "

While that is the spin that is giving to the "normies", I would say that it is more likely to be this:

I highly doubt thats the only reason, it's probably licensing related... I'm sure both are trying to leverage each other for better fees.

There could be a little bit about the implementation being outdated, but I would say the bulk of it would be "show me the money".

They both stand to lose too much by shutting the other out, so I'm sure next week, or sometime before march they'll announce something.... likely a price hike to cover the extra fees they have!
I wouldn't be surprised to actually have already settled and this is a little bit of "theater" for the end customer. That's just me speculating, but I sure wouldn't be surprised.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14nnWfDJFDOUDlWee3oCciQZHUIrJIoAx/view?usp=sharing And here is a link to the V4 file if you guys dont feel like generating it yourself. It has almost 30% more pantone colors than the one included in adobe.. I can't see adobe removing their whole color book system, so as long as files like this can be exported, I don't see how pantones will be going away for anyone except the average user who doesnt care to export / import them.... which admittedly is a big chunk of people.
At one time, there was a python package (pip package) that allow for getting and exporting pantone (and others) swatch books. Don't know how good it is as I have never tried it, but there are those as well out there.

There used to be repo for pantone swatches as .gpl files (work for gimp and inkscape mainly), but they haven't updated those in about 5 yrs as well, but they would still work and considering some on here have CS6 or earlier, in theory would be newer. As to the quality, couldn't swear to. My color swatches were that related to thread, not pantone, so never had a need to test any of these out, just knew about them.
 
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GB2

Old Member
I'm wondering what will happen with all of your files that contain PMS colors after it is discontinued....will you open an old file and get an error or corruption message?
 

SignMeUpGraphics

Super Active Member
I'm sure named colours will still work just fine. It's the swatch libraries that are being removed, so you wouldn't be able to design using colours from the removed libraries until you can install your own. More of an issue for designers rather than printers.
 
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