All icc profiles have color shifted

[Mark Mooney]

I had the Service Maintenance Kit #3 performed on my Latex 360 a month ago by a Bell & Howell service tech. Since then, all the profiles I’ve downloaded from Lexjet and HP and have been using the last 2 years with great color results, and no matter the substrate or profile I try, the overall color has shifted especially to where grays now look very bluish/green and skin tones are pale bluish and sickly looking. This is despite multiple re-calibrations and even re-installations of canned profiles re-downloaded directly from Lexjet and HP. I even updated to the latest firmware to make sure that wasn't the issue.

I’m able to create my own profiles from scratch, run calibration, complete a new ICC profile creation, and the colors from these look great like the canned profiles used to. No matter what I do, none of the canned profiles print correctly anymore and I can't seem to get them calibrated. Seems like I’m stuck recreating profiles for all my substrates from scratch from now on, or maybe I’m just missing something?

 

[ColorCrest]

Seems like I’m stuck recreating profiles for all my substrates from scratch from now on, or maybe I’m just missing something?

You're just missing an understanding is all. "A" machine was in a certain state of calibration when canned profiles were created. Your machine at this time is not in the same state. Therefore, when you create your new profiles the software is optimizing color for the the current state of your machine at this point in time, and thus valid.

Yes, you need to create new profiles. Do your best to keep the machine calibrated and the new profiles will be remain valid.

 

[balstestrat]

Eh, I don't know what has happened but if every profile suddenly "broke" I think you are after the wrong thing. I would start somewhere else like are the printheads performing as they should be. Did someone change something in the RIP without your knowledge. I had a case where someone changed the color settings in the RIP and everything came out with blue hue. Almost couldn't figure it out.

Unless they updated your firmware from years ago to up to date, I think you are wasting time with the profiles.

 

[Mark Mooney]

You're just missing an understanding is all. "A" machine was in a certain state of calibration when canned profiles were created. Your machine at this time is not in the same state. Therefore, when you create your new profiles the software is optimizing color for the the current state of your machine at this point in time, and thus valid.

Yes, you need to create new profiles. Do your best to keep the machine calibrated and the new profiles will be remain valid.

I understand the old profiles are now "outdated" with the new state of the printer, but I still don't understand why those old canned profiles won't recalibrate to the new state of the machine. Creating new profiles is not difficult, just extremely time and material consuming. I'd prefer to figure out how to get the old profiles recalibrated to the printer, but they will not recalibrate regardless of how many times I run calibration on them.

The canned profiles from Lexjet and HP were created on one of their Latex 360 printers and should work on any Latex 360 because each profile has to be calibrated to the individual printer. That's how you can get matching color between two different printers. So, why won't these old profiles recalibrate correctly?

Eh, I don't know what has happened but if every profile suddenly "broke" I think you are after the wrong thing. I would start somewhere else like are the printheads performing as they should be. Did someone change something in the RIP without your knowledge. I had a case where someone changed the color settings in the RIP and everything came out with blue hue. Almost couldn't figure it out.

Unless they updated your firmware from years ago to up to date, I think you are wasting time with the profiles.

Nothing has changed in the RIP, I'm the only operator. I know the printheads (all new) and inks cartridges (also all new) are performing correctly because when using new profiles that I create I get perfect beautiful colors that match previous prints that were made using the old canned profiles. So, again, the question is how do I get the old profiles I've been using for 2 years to recalibrate to the printer in it's current updated state after the SMK3 installation? Running a simple calibration doesn't do it, figured I must be missing another step somewhere.

It's not the firmware either, I keep it up to date regularly. It was on version 1.17 before and after the SMK3 install, before the install colors were great, after is when the shift happened. I updated to v1.18 and the issue persists.

In the end it may be a waste of time trying to get the old profiles to recalibrate, probably better off just creating new ones. I saw somewhere in another thread several people saying they never use the canned profiles and only create their own... maybe this is one reason why.

 

[balstestrat]

Did you try to reset the color calibration and then doing it?

 

[ColorCrest]

but I still don't understand why those old canned profiles won't recalibrate to the new state of the machine.

It appears you still have a misunderstanding. One does not recalibrate profiles, and to be clear, we're talking ICC profiles here. One calibrates a color printer (ideally to grays) as a certain step, then the ICC profile creation follows at a later step.

To easily visually track calibration on a routine basis, print a known control image to check for any color or mechanical variations. It appears your machine was calibrated to "something" and now it is calibrated to "something else." If you could return to the earlier state, all would be well.

It's possible to preview machine calibration by using the soft proof feature in Photoshop when the old and new ICC profiles are loaded. When checking grays especially, look to see how the profiles shift the hues.

 

[balstestrat]

It appears you still have a misunderstanding. One does not recalibrate profiles, and to be clear, we're talking ICC profiles here. One calibrates a color printer (ideally to grays) as a certain step, then the ICC profile creation follows at a later step.

To easily visually track calibration on a routine basis, print a known control image to check for any color or mechanical variations. It appears your machine was calibrated to "something" and now it is calibrated to "something else." If you could return to the earlier state, all would be well.

It's possible to preview machine calibration by using the soft proof feature in Photoshop when the old and new ICC profiles are loaded. When checking grays especially, look to see how the profiles shift the hues.

You are correct but not completely right with this printer. Latex has a color calibration to match the profiles with different printers and to compensate on printhead wear.

In theory you should always be able to recalibrate and achieve the same output as before or with a 2nd printer that has the same profile installed.

And no this is not ICC recalibration.

 

[ColorCrest]

I had a case where someone changed the color settings in the RIP and everything came out with blue hue.

This is indicative of an ICC profile compensating for deflected nozzles or a calibration biased toward yellow. If all calibrations were truly gray balanced, no prints would be blue except for mechanical issues with or without ICC turned on or off.

 

[Mark Mooney]

OK, poor choice of wording on my part... I'm specifically talking about the substrate specific profiles that are loaded on the printer, not ICC profiles embedded in images from Photoshop. And I know you don't calibrate the profile, rather you calibrate the printer.

In theory you should always be able to recalibrate and achieve the same output as before or with a 2nd printer that has the same profile installed.

Right, in theory, but that's where I'm having the issue. Recalibrating the printer with an old profile does nothing regardless of how many times I recalibrate, colors still print way off from before. Creating a whole new profile (on the latex printer console) with the same settings as the old profile produces correct colors exactly like the old profile used to. So why won't the printer recalibrate correctly with the old profiles?

 

[P Wagner]

As has been mentioned, you can attempt to delete the old Color Calibration reference data (reset to default): with the media loaded and defined, from the front panel top menu: Settings Icon > Image Quality Maintenance > Color Calibration > Reset to Factory. After that, run the Color Calibration again to create a new reference. There is no guarantee that this will bring the printer back into the old baseline state, but it is worth a shot, as the previous reference data could be invalid.

If that doesn't work, create a new 'tiling mode' preset that is based on the mechanical settings that were used previously. This can be performed in about 30 minutes and takes about 4 linear feet of media to complete (CLC + ICC charts).

 

[Mark Mooney]

As has been mentioned, you can attempt to delete the old Color Calibration reference data (reset to default): with the media loaded and defined, from the front panel top menu: Settings Icon > Image Quality Maintenance > Color Calibration > Reset to Factory. After that, run the Color Calibration again to create a new reference. There is no guarantee that this will bring the printer back into the old baseline state, but it is worth a shot, as the previous reference data could be invalid.

If that doesn't work, create a new 'tiling mode' preset that is based on the mechanical settings that were used previously. This can be performed in about 30 minutes and takes about 4 linear feet of media to complete (CLC + ICC charts).

Thanks, I'll give that a try.

 

[Precision]

I would look hard at my printheads - first.

 

[Mark Mooney]

I tried reset to factory under calibration as suggested, still didn't work, colors still shift blue.

It's definitely not the printheads... like I mentioned, I can create new substrate profiles from scratch and they print perfectly.

I appreciate the suggestions, but I've already rebuilt most of the profiles I need. It was faster than figuring out how to fix the old profiles, albeit a little more costly in materials and ink.

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

I’ve been experiencing this same problem for over a year… I basically stopped using my latex because of this. How do I rebuild the profiles?

 

[Mark Mooney]

I’ve been experiencing this same problem for over a year… I basically stopped using my latex because of this. How do I rebuild the profiles?

FYI, this is only valid for Latex 360 and higher models because they have a built in spectrophotometer...

On the printer, go into Substrate Library, pick a substrate type like SAV, tap on New SAV Profile, enter the exact same settings from the old profile you're recreating, name it, run calibration, create New ICC Profile, then Finish.

It takes about a half hour, start to finish because there's 2 different calibration charts that will print plus reading them, and about 4 ft of material, like someone above mentioned.

 

[ToTo]

For better understanding, the color calibration (linearization) is based on the very first color reference done on the initial color calibration. This should be created with best performance of printheads and substrate advance. Sometimes this database gets corrupted resulting in color shift. Delete the color reference in image quality menu and redo color calibration. Then you should be fine.

 

[FlyingSquirrelBrigade]

For better understanding, the color calibration (linearization) is based on the very first color reference done on the initial color calibration. This should be created with best performance of printheads and substrate advance. Sometimes this database gets corrupted resulting in color shift. Delete the color reference in image quality menu and redo color calibration. Then you should be fine.

How often do you have to do this?

 

[Lux]

Have you tried talking to Bell & Howell? Sounds like the tech changed something or the maintenance kit caused a change. Is it possible to talk to someone at HP? I know sometimes talking to service/maintenance companies and equipment sellers is an exercise in futility.

 

[Mark Mooney]

For better understanding, the color calibration (linearization) is based on the very first color reference done on the initial color calibration. This should be created with best performance of printheads and substrate advance. Sometimes this database gets corrupted resulting in color shift. Delete the color reference in image quality menu and redo color calibration. Then you should be fine.

Do you mean under the Image Quality Maintenance > Calibration > Rest to Factory when you say "delete the color reference?" If so, that's been done and did nothing to improve color using the old substrate presets.

Otherwise, there is no option to delete the color reference.

 

[Mark Mooney]

Have you tried talking to Bell & Howell? Sounds like the tech changed something or the maintenance kit caused a change. Is it possible to talk to someone at HP? I know sometimes talking to service/maintenance companies and equipment sellers is an exercise in futility.

Oh yeah... I even have the B&H service tech's cell #, but he's on the road and told me to call HP. You already guessed how that's going. They opened a ticket and I haven't heard squat back in over 2 days. I even called my rep at Lexjet because they have several printer techs that do all their substrate testing, and they're stumped too. Reset to factory under calibration was their first suggestion as well. When that didn't work, they were just confused with no more ideas.

When you're doing production work, you don't have 2+ spare days waiting around for help, so I just recreated the substrate profiles and everything is printing great, exactly like the old profiles printed.