Any recommendations for a beginner embroidery machine?

[GraphicZone]

Any recommendations for a beginner embroidery machine? I am looking at a SAI Mirror, and the Smartstitch 15 needle machines. If anyone has any info on either of these machines, or has had history with any other single head entry level machines, please let me know. TIS Shawn

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I'm always one to go with brands that have been around the block for awhile. I think for the first one you also meant BAI, not SAI. Max spm speeds are comparable, however, in practice it is not advisable to run at max speeds (some will, quality, needle life (which also depends on needle quality), thread breakages etc all play a part depending on speed). My best suggestion is whatever one you are looking at is to actually test it, see it's stitch quality on both flats and hats (and this would mean having a file specifically digitized for both (most people like to do both in one file, but there are compromises in this, but I digress) and files that you now are good and know that they produce quality results. Not ones that they supply.

Personally, I'm a Barudan fan (I have had single head bridge style machines and multi-head), Tajimas would work, but both of those would be significantly more, but they are professional grade. Brother's tend to be in that same range that you are looking at (some of the Smartstitches I think can read the PES format (Brother's native format), that has it's pros and cons compared to the DST industry standard format that all can handle, but I digress. There are some advantages with Brother, software integration/camera versus laser. The PES file format has quirks, but once learned those quirks it's easy enough, does have some advantages over DST.

Keep in mind, machines in this range that you are looking at are considering high end home machines and low end commercial, that comes with it's pros/cons in a truly business setting. I have seen this work quite well with the Brother variants (the PR lineup), but they stick to small volume, monogram shops(embroidme (called something else now) loves this machine in the smaller locations from what digitizing work I have done for them,), shops that do small hot runs. I would probably suggest the same for the ones that you listed as well. The trade off one is getting with these, because of their high end home nature is user friendliness, especially with regard to the control unit. Now, the quick bandaid fix for increase output is getting more single head machines (depending on shop layout, could be better compared to a multi-head bridge style) and Brother does have a very good way of linking via software for monitoring status of each machine in progress. I don't think the others off that level of linkage, I think the Smartstitch is just operating separately with no central area of control.

Again, if able to, test them, otherwise don't know what you are getting and test on the machine that you are looking to buy, these machines are affected by their use environment and how well they are taken care of and that's individual. The other consideration is proximity of tech support (depending on how handy you are), that could be another factor as well.

 

[GraphicZone]

Yes I did mean BAI. Sorry. I have an opportunity at a Ricoma 2 head machine, but it's $16000, which I absolutely cannot do. The Bai is around the $5000ish mark new, like the Smartstitch. That's about where I would like to be pricewise. I currently only do about 400 to 500 pieces per year in embroidery, but every couple months it is growing.

thanks for all the info
Shawn

 

[WildWestDesigns]

As of right now, I would say your are just at 5% of low output. Wouldn't need to think about beyond these machines (or upgrading them) until about 10k, maybe 15k output per year (but that is when embroidery is also the mainstay and able to focus more on that, if doing other things efficiency can take a hit, do you have a dedicated person that can run the machine, especially if you have an large single order that has a good time crunch for delivery?). Best bet is to actually test them though before buying.

Don't need to worry about this now, but one advantage of running multiple single heads versus a single multi-head is that if one head of a multi-head has an issue, all heads are stopped. While depending on the link setup, if a head in a multi single head setup goes down, only one is impacted, but again that depends on how everything is linked.

 

[binki]

I would definitely not purchase a Chinese made machine for any price. Look for the top or second tier. Tajima, Barudan, ZSK (top) or SWF (2nd tier Korean made) and maybe Melco.

Next, I would not get a compact machine. Get a full size single head. I wouldn't worry about the number of needles per head. You can get by with a 9 or 12 needle if you want to save money on the purchase. Also, consider used. You can call one of the distributors and ask for a 'Show Price'. That may be good for $1K off. Also, buying right now may get an extra discount if they are trying to clear inventory.

Now, the real part.
1) If you don't know how to digitize, you will need to pay for that service. Learning digitizing is more of an art/skill than just using Corel or Adobe.
2) A single head will get you into the game but it won't make much, if any money for you. You will need a multi head or multiple machines to make it work. A 4 head will cost the same as 3 single head machine but are in my opinion much better quality machines. You will hate yourself with your first 500 cap order with a single head. I sure did.
3) Pricing models vary. We price by size but pricing by stitch count is a thing as well.
5) You will need supplies. Stabilizer, bobbins, bobbin cases (yes, they are consumable), needles, toppings, thread, scissors, etc. Also consider Mighty Hoops. They are a life saver. All in for supplies it may cost you several thousand just to get started with a single head.
6) If you are in the USA, putting the machine into service by 12/31 enables accelerated depreciation if this tax year if you are running on a calendar year. Uncle Sam will cover part of the cost of that machine. If you spend $15K and are in the 22% tax bracket then $3,300 will be what you save on federal tax giving you a cost of $11,700 even if you finance it. Look at commercial banks like US Bank to offer financing. We have used them in the past and it is much less expensive than using some of these lease companies that are at the shows.

Good luck in your adventure. Once you start selling this you will be amazed at how many orders you will get. We didn't think we could fill the 4 head but a few months in I could have purchased 3 of them and still run them 24/7.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Also, consider used. You can call one of the distributors and ask for a 'Show Price'. That may be good for $1K off. Also, buying right now may get an extra discount if they are trying to clear inventory.

I remember getting a show price on my Barudan C01 with sequin dispenser (they don't sell a lot, so the discount was really good and still had the warranty. Going used, could be an issue, especially looking at the "top tier". Barudan's hold their value quite well, so to get into budget friendly range, could be looking at a 15-20 yr old machine. At that point, have to start worrying about the tech. Is it floppy, CF card (and not just any CF card, there can be read/write speed limitations and memory limitations). Can it be converted etc.

Now, the real part.
1) If you don't know how to digitize, you will need to pay for that service. Learning digitizing is more of an art/skill than just using Corel or Adobe.

Please be careful here. This was actually the mainstay of what I did, especially towards the end. A lot of bad habits out there and finding a good service or learning on your own, it's technical. Can get away with more production knowledge, when to use what stitch type, how to maximize production (when to use or not use jump stitches, how to hide them etc). I loved this part of the process, so I can go on and on about it. Don't go just by cost, you do get what you pay for. Digitizing software, the good ones, are not cheap, even playing the upgrade/trade in game.

2) A single head will get you into the game but it won't make much, if any money for you. You will need a multi head or multiple machines to make it work. A 4 head will cost the same as 3 single head machine but are in my opinion much better quality machines. You will hate yourself with your first 500 cap order with a single head. I sure did.

Yes, if embroidery isn't the main thing, doing large single orders is going to be a thing (why I asked if he has a dedicated work for this and what was the largest single order that he had), this can easily trump the footprint/cost savings having a compact machine. The downside to a multi-head though is that if one head has an issue, say a thread break, all the heads on that machine are stopped until that thread break is resolved, however, long that may take. Another downside is have to wait in order to make changes for a large order. By this I mean, say doing 3mm or thicker puff, not going to make the necessary changes to tension etc unless that run is long enough to make it worth doing those changes (some won't touch anything thicker compared to 2mm or they will use digitizing trickery to fake it and 2mm can be closely faked with thread alone). So there are trade-offs, just depends on what is more valuable to the particular place.

If doing more corporate style stuff, yea, in general, those are pretty boring and can handle multi-heads better. Some of the bigger places would have a multi-head or two just dedicated to the specialty stuff, but only ran for those orders, but they had high minimums as well.

3) Pricing models vary. We price by size but pricing by stitch count is a thing as well.

Digitizing or just actually embroidery?

One thing to also consider (and it will take time in order to get good and be able to look and tell) is not all digitized files are created equal and some will take a garbage amount of time to stitch out, compared to if someone was a little better with the digitizing. A file that takes 50 minutes could be cut down to 20 with correct digitizing (depends on the file and how it was digitized, but I have had a customer supplied file do that very thing) and that adds up depending on how many items one is doing. Pricing by size/stitch count does not compensate for that.

5) You will need supplies. Stabilizer, bobbins, bobbin cases (yes, they are consumable), needles, toppings, thread, scissors, etc. Also consider Mighty Hoops. They are a life saver. All in for supplies it may cost you several thousand just to get started with a single head.

Huge fan of Mighty Hoops, but bare in mind, whatever you get has to be multiplied by how many heads one has and Mighty Hoops are not cheap, but boy are they worth it, especially for the inevitable Carhartt jacket order.

 

[binki]

My opinion, it is better to finance a real commercial multi head machine and accessories for 5 years than to go with a home/table top machine. I would say it would be quickly outgrown long before there was a $5K profit on it. At the very lease you should be able to make you monthly payment plus with the work that will come in. Now, having a single head makes it much harder since you can only produce one hat at a time which could be 30 minutes of production time for a single piece will blow up your $/hr that you might want to make.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

My opinion, it is better to finance a real commercial multi head machine and accessories for 5 years than to go with a home/table top machine. I would say it would be quickly outgrown long before there was a $5K profit on it. At the very lease you should be able to make you monthly payment plus with the work that will come in. Now, having a single head makes it much harder since you can only produce one hat at a time which could be 30 minutes of production time for a single piece will blow up your $/hr that you might want to make.

Depending on what the customer base is, yes. Are "you" going after corporate clients where margins are not as robust and not really dealing with a lot of "exciting" design work, that are usually done with high volume/low cost, absolutely. If one is doing monogramming with applique, huge markup there, especially if doing novelty designs that most people won't touch (depending on the software, this would actually be able to use other sign machines (plotters/cutters specifically), or manually done to offset what isn't available in the digitizing software (if outsourcing, usually can get those as well as separate EPS files, at least that's what I would do)). I created some designs that had 9 cut pieces (I don't know what I was thinking when I did that), not many people are going to touch that, good place for premium charging.

However, on the flip side of that, there are "corporate" clients that are still low run and can't really get good discounts with the bigger places due to minimums to keep their machines going.

Keep in mind as well, there are going to be times that it's not going to be efficient to run a machine. Let's say "you" have a 6 head, but an order of 3. Those other 3 heads are wasting time doing nothing (that is just for an easy example, that can be extrapolated out to higher numbers). I doubt would touch the single order, even though huge markup on that. Can't go on to the next order until that one is done (or there is a minimum of 6). There is a tradeoff here, it's not quite as cost effective to just get multiple single heads and link when necessary, at a certain point, they do cost more compared to just one multi-head. This isn't even getting into the color combination variables that can come about. Different types of needles that one may have to change out when dealing with fine lettering, regular embroidery, thicker puff, metallic, glow in the dark, fire resistant etc. There are some people that won't touch .15mm lettering because it would necessitate at the vary least thinner thread and needles and that setup adds time, especially if having to do it on a multi-head machine, usually also for greater fidelity run it at slower times (some machines, like Barudan, can control that via their U?? files, but I digress, nerding out here I am).

There are some trade offs with regard to repair work as well. Multi-head machine is down, it's all down, if have two single heads, one is down, it's only one down. Plus, if having to get a tech to work on something, sometimes it's more cost efficient to be able to take it to someone versus always having to have someone come out (not always, but it's sometimes nice to have that option).

I have had 1 multi-head (4), and 3 single heads (2 compacts and 1 bridge style (also had the sequin attachment on it)). They all had their place and having a variety allowed me to do certain jobs as well that I would have to turn down if I strictly had one type, but that's all I did, this is further compounded if someone is doing multiple different things, it's best to pick one target demo and stick with it. If I need to add or take away heads for different jobs, having those single heads allowed that to be a consideration as well.

To actually nail this down, the OP is going to have to determine the exact embroidery market he is going after and use that as a starting point. 400 to 500 pieces per year (don't know what the growth rate is every couple of months) is not necessarily multi-head consideration. Don't really even know what the makeup of those orders are, apparel/hats/towels, what expects the largest order at one time. How much resources are going to go into this (dedicated employee) or is it just an accommodating side hustle when time allows?

 

[binki]

Revisiting this after thinking about it for a while. $5K isn't enough to get started with anything other than a small table top/home type machine. Even then, I think it will be too slow and not yield enough production to make it worth the effort. Additionally, digitizing will still need to be done. That is another expense along with all the supplies needed as I previously mentioned.

My recommendation would be to keep sourcing the jobs and save the profits from that to purchase at least a 2 head machine, maybe a 4 head and a full size single head. These can be financed so that is an option. As I also mentioned, US Bank has been good to us on equipment financing with reasonable rates. You would be able to at least make enough to make the monthly payments on the equipment.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Revisiting this after thinking about it for a while. $5K isn't enough to get started with anything other than a small table top/home type machine.

That's true, unless getting a really, really, really old bridge style machine.

Even then, I think it will be too slow and not yield enough production to make it worth the effort.

We don't really have enough info on what the clientele is and the demand. 400-500 a year (don't know the increase every couple of months is), don't know what the largest run amount within a single order is etc. 400-500 a year is peanuts. If he was moving 500 a month, that would be on the low end for a 2 head machine. Ideally, I would suggest about a 1k a month for a 2 head. Without knowing how much he is naturally adding each year (or every couple of months).

Now, if he is doing 100-200 units in one order routinely using only 1 pattern (not a mixed set of patterns or mixed items (hats and shirts (which is a fairly standard combo)), that may also justify it even if he doesn't make the regularly monthly, but again even if he only got 5 orders of a hundred each per year now, that would still be pushing it for a 2 head. That is still a lot of down time for such an expense. Especially if not bought outright and depending on the terms of finance.

Outsourcing is typically the better option for multiple reasons, especially if already have a source you trust. I don't know if I would eliminate the single head out of hand, it does really depend on what you are wanting to do and how committed you are to it. 2 head would serve most people that aren't dedicated embroidery businesses (but not with the numbers I'm seeing right now) but are moving a quite a bit of product, I wouldn't go higher unless really, really moving product or huge amounts of consistent single orders. While 2 head machine is also typically easier to find the floor space for (even a single head bridge style takes up the same amount of floor space, so especially if getting a bridge style, may as well get a 2 head, unless there is another reason to stick with 1 head), once one goes higher, floor space really starts to be an issue. Again, I have to wonder if this is just side hustle to get the small orders that get the extra stuff that would otherwise slip thru or are really serious about it.

But if really getting the low novelty orders, yea, a single head is worth it's flexibility in that regard.

Additionally, digitizing will still need to be done. That is another expense along with all the supplies needed as I previously mentioned.

Even if he doesn't do the entire digitizing himself (or whomever is the operator) is he going to get a digitizing package (entry commercial is $3k without playing any trade up/in game, even plugins for Ai/Draw go for the same amount) in order to make tweaks to the patterns etc. Or going to be totally dependent on the digitizer (some do have limits to how long able first go back for edits after original purchase (a week used to be standard), for the 1st edit, if an edit is being worked on beyond that time frame that's something else (typically puff can cause a lot of back and forth, particularly for anything beyond 2mm)).

One other thing to consider, are you going to accept customer supplied items or only going to be ones that you supply? If accept from them, may want to also have caveats to safe guard if mistakes happen (I used to have a scale of every X amount +1 item extra). And in this case, I mean mistakes that happen due to the machine (power surge that causes the needle(s) (depending on 1 or multi head) to act like jackhammers and shred that LC or hat area) acts up that is beyond one's control.


With regard to production time, one thing to consider that affects production, regardless of the head count that you have, just the lower the head count, the more it will affect it, is the production worth of the file. People will use excessive trims, needless color changes, and wrong stitch type (typically when it's tatami stitch type) and that will kill production time regardless of how many heads you have and possible could kill products as well. The more that you can control the better it will be (and there is no magic bullet, don't by the hype of auto conversion (some will call it auto digitizing, but it's not that intelligent to do that type of work) and it's actually worse with less options compared to live/power trace that Ai/Draw has.

 

[binki]

Wilcom has an annual subscription which includes Corel Draw for $1490/yr but that is one complicated puppy.

I did the single head bit to start and while that gets you into the game you really can't make any serious $/hr with it. We try to keep our shop rate around $300/hr so having a 4 head really helps and the full size single head is used for smaller orders and letterman jackets. The real moneymaker is patches. We have a bunch of motorcycle and car clubs and run hundreds of patches a month. Aside from that, our government contracts and schools keep us busy as well.

 

[Craig Keller]

I love Toyota 9000 or 9100s

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Wilcom has an annual subscription which includes Corel Draw for $1490/yr but that is one complicated puppy.

I did the single head bit to start and while that gets you into the game you really can't make any serious $/hr with it. We try to keep our shop rate around $300/hr so having a 4 head really helps and the full size single head is used for smaller orders and letterman jackets. The real moneymaker is patches. We have a bunch of motorcycle and car clubs and run hundreds of patches a month. Aside from that, our government contracts and schools keep us busy as well.

Wilcom is the best. I wouldn't go the subscription route myself, but the full version when I was using it went for around $15k if didn't play the trade up/trade in game (I do have a sequin dispenser though, so I needed more compared to others, most can skip that module). Their semi manual/manual tools are the best. Times when one had to do things stitch by stitch though. Also it allows for commands to be inserted in various file formats (and it can handle slow/fast commands in the Barudan machines, but did have to use the U?? format). All in all, great software. I never installed the Corel side of things though.

Patches are a good money maker, I would swing for a Merrow machine, but that's me, if the OP goes that route. There are tricks around that, but have the truly typical professional finish, have to have one of those.

I stayed away from government/schools outside of digitizing. I never wanted that headache.