Any reports on the new 7_00.11 firmware yet?

[dypinc]

Especially "Long Run Consistency Mode" what does it appear to be doing?

Has color changed, and if so does an onboard calibration bring it back?

 

[dypinc]

Is everybody afraid to upgrade there L360?

 

[GP_Oz]

Most likely they are afraid.
The FW only went online for us yesterday, I can only think of one place I would like to install it and give it a good test run, which will really out it through its paces of "long run consistency"

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

works good for us so far, did have to reprofile colors on 1 profile though.

 

[greysquirrel]

I'm curious what "long run consistency" is supposed to do...the printer uses thermal heads that are not designed for long runs at all...I have never had any issues running in 2.5-3 hour bursts and letting the printer sit for 10 minutes before starting next run...HP said the runs can be longer but by doing this I prolong my head usage and have never...oops ever had a color shift or consistency issue.
A piezo head can run all day without this issue...
I am getting on average 7-8 ink cartridges through my printer before changing out heads...

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I'm curious what "long run consistency" is supposed to do...the printer uses thermal heads that are not designed for long runs at all...I have never had any issues running in 2.5-3 hour bursts and letting the printer sit for 10 minutes before starting next run...HP said the runs can be longer but by doing this I prolong my head usage and have never...oops ever had a color shift or consistency issue.
A piezo head can run all day without this issue...
I am getting on average 7-8 ink cartridges through my printer before changing out heads...

This is misinformation on the highest level...

We are able to print all day and unattended, we run a very specific job on 4 pass and we can get 4 rolls done in a day at 1:50 per roll then we set one up and run it after we leave. That is nearly 10hours of printing and 750 Lin ft and we will do this for week's straight.

These machines are designed to run and those thermal heads when they do run out they are designed to change out. We got the 360 on March 1st and its already got 49L of ink through it and only 2 heads due to jams.

Back to he question at hand my understanding is that the long run consistency is supposed to monitor and adjust feed rate, color, and inter-pass delay to maintain panel size and color consistency between panels.

 

[FrankW]

Back to he question at hand my understanding is that the long run consistentcy is supposed to monitor and adjust feed rate, color, and interphase to mamaintain panel size and color consistency between panels.

"Long Run Consistency Mode" is for stabilizing color only. Feed rate is even monitored by the OMAS-Sensor.

This mode contains additional heat up procedures which extends the time until printing to about 2 Minutes instead of one, and want to stabilize head temperature. You need to activate it for every single media you want to use it for (because of the additional heat up time you perhaps won't use it anytime).

I currently do measurements to test the effect.

the printer uses thermal heads that are not designed for long runs at all ...

Perhaps you want to have a look on for what HP thermal inkjet technology is good for?

[video=youtube;IceK3ieFgqI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IceK3ieFgqI[/video]

 

[dypinc]

This is misinformation on the highest level...

We are able to print all day and unattended, we run a very specific job on 4 pass and we can get 4 rolls done in a day at 1:50 per roll then we set one up and run it after we leave. That is nearly 10hours of printing and 750 Lin ft and we will do this for week's straight.

These machines are designed to run and those thermal heads when they do run out they are designed to change out. We got the 360 on March 1st and its already got 49L of ink through it and only 2 heads due to jams.

Back to he question at hand my understanding is that the long run consistency is supposed to monitor and adjust feed rate, color, and inter-pass delay to maintain panel size and color consistency between panels.

This is an issue caused by having only one lc/lm print head. You can't run 4 pass and use lc/lm inks, so no you would not see this color consistency problem.

Also the long run consistency setting as told to me by an HP representative only affects the the temp and power of the lc/lm printhead.

 

[FrankW]

No need to blame the LcLm-Printhead for every problem. There is a problem with color deviation too when printing long runs with full color with a higher number of passes.

There must be a reason why HP uses now 2 Op-Heads, but still 1 Light head only, with the new 500.

 

[dypinc]

No need to blame the LcLm-Printhead for every problem. There is a problem with color deviation too when printing long runs with full color with a higher number of passes.

There must be a reason why HP uses now 2 Op-Heads, but still 1 Light head only, with the new 500.

You don't seem to have much real world experience with these printers as you can't explain what you consider higher number of passes of if full color means CMYKcm or CMYK. If using CMYKcm then you statement in your first sentence makes no sense given what HP has said about the long run consistency settings. You need to explain yourself better (if you actually have real world experience) instead of making confusing statements.

From what I have seen from various different jobs with heavy coverage even at 12 pass there is ink starvation happening with the 1 lc/lm head. The question is will the long run consistency setting have a beneficial effect. I know what HP has told me, but what I am more interested in finding out is real world users experiences.

Until we find out pass and color mode setting allowed on the new 500s we won't know if HP will even allow the use of the second OP head closest to the lc/lm head when lc/lm inks are used. From experience with the 300 machines the 2 OP heads on the 500 are used to prevent ink starvation since these are designed for faster printing. Keeping in mind what I was told by HP, that the reason 2 lc/lm heads were not used was because of a problem with the OP head being too close to the 2nd lc/lm head.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

This is an issue caused by having only one lc/lm print head. You can't run 4 pass and use lc/lm inks, so no you would not see this color consistency problem.

Also the long run consistency setting as told to me by an HP representative only affects the the temp and power of the lc/lm printhead.

That is not correct at all, I'm using CMYKcm and 4 pass... so again how is it the LC LM head issue?

 

[dypinc]

That is not correct at all, I'm using CMYKcm and 4 pass... so again how is it the LC LM head issue?

With the L360? You better check that as I can't select 4 pass and CMYKcm.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

It is definitely CMYKcm, I know this for a fact since I built the profile myself.

 

[dypinc]

It is definitely CMYKcm, I know this for a fact since I built the profile myself.

I just checked it on the printer creating a new media substrate and your right. Not sure I could see why I would want to use lc/lm with 4 pass, but hey if it works for you.

 

[FrankW]

You don't seem to have much real world experience with these printers as you can't explain what you consider higher number of passes of if full color means CMYKcm or CMYK.

You're right. I'm only working in the support department of a HP dealer in switzerland, responsible for signmaking customers, doing demonstrations, installs, trainings, color management and troubleshooting of latex 300 printers most of my time, being in contact sometimes directly with the guys developing that machines at Barcelona/Spain (currently reporting issues during testing a beta latex 560 placed at HP Switzerland offices), being a subscriber of any technical newsletters, and doing support jobs in digital printing since 1997 (in earlier times with Mutoh, Roland etc. too).

But real world experience? No ...

If you think light colors would have any effect on full colour prints (for example full red areas), than you do not understand what light colors do. They REPLACE their regular pendants on LIGHT Colour tones, from a defined split level. The only thing what could happen with light colours during such prints that they "starv" in color bars because of they are not much in use during the print. I'm not shure were the ink split level is set on the latex 300 because it is not user editable, but that there is one is shure.

I'm sorry: sometimes I should think "down" to user experience for being understandable.

From experience with the 300 machines the 2 OP heads on the 500 are used to prevent ink starvation since these are designed for faster printing

Thats wrong. Look at that video to learn what optimizer does (you only need to have a look on the first 2 - 3 minutes, but the whoie video would be interesting):

[video=youtube;mEJ4ojBwFmc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJ4ojBwFmc[/video]

You can't deactivate one Optimizer Head on the 500's. You can only set the profile to don't use optimizer at all.

I know what HP has told me ...

Be shure that really HP speaks to you, not only a sales representative of a dealer wo searches for excuses.

By the way: I have done tests with the "long run consistency mode" yesterday, printing 12m of full colours on paper. The attached PDF shows the difference in colours between a swatch at the beginning of the print and at the end.

Interesting and in opposite to your opinion: it looks like that there is a problem with a Cyan (full Cyan) head, because I have a lot of deviation in colours with cyan ... but a small deviation only with light blue colours. But the light colours were only in use during printing 5 swatches ... the print itself consists of full CYMK-stripes.

 

[dypinc]

If you think light colors would have any effect on full colour prints (for example full red areas), than you do not understand what light colors do. They REPLACE their regular pendants on LIGHT Colour tones, from a defined split level. The only thing what could happen with light colours during such prints that they "starv" in color bars because of they are not much in use during the print. I'm not shure were the ink split level is set on the latex 300 because it is not user editable, but that there is one is shure.

"not much use during the print" Your lack of understanding is amazing. As you say your not sure where the ink splits/curves are for the light inks so you don't know how much light inks are used in say the 70% to 100% range in CMYKcm mode.

Thats wrong. Look at that video to learn what optimizer does (you only need to have a look on the first 2 - 3 minutes, but the whoie video would be interesting):

You can't deactivate one Optimizer Head on the 500's. You can only set the profile to don't use optimizer at all.

I never suggested the operator could deactivate one OP head, but only what HP could do internally. I know exactly what the optimizer does. Why the use of two optimizer heads? I have never heard a really good explanation for that. I what situation would you need to use that much optimizer? The only thing I can think of is to prevent ink/optimizer starvation or improve nozzle redundancy. The same reason two lc/lm heads should be used.

Be shure that really HP speaks to you, not only a sales representative of a dealer wo searches for excuses.

Coming from you, really?

By the way: I have done tests with the "long run consistency mode" yesterday, printing 12m of full colours on paper. The attached PDF shows the difference in colours between a swatch at the beginning of the print and at the end.

Interesting and in opposite to your opinion: it looks like that there is a problem with a Cyan (full Cyan) head, because I have a lot of deviation in colours with cyan ... but a small deviation only with light blue colours. But the light colours were only in use during printing 5 swatches ... the print itself consists of full CYMK-stripes.

But you didn't do the test in CMYK mode or did you? So do I have to assume you used CMYKcm mode 5 swatches and CMYK mode in the other swatches? So as you say your not sure where the ink splits/curves are for the light inks so you don't know how much light inks are used in say the 70% to 100% range in CMYKcm mode. The only real way to test this is to use both color modes and see what the differences are and in color consistency using one mode over the other, and to use real world print jobs, not just color targets with small patches of various colors.

 

[FrankW]

"not much use during the print" Your lack of understanding is amazing. As you say you not sure where the ink splits/curves are for the light inks so you don't know how much light inks are used in say the 70% to 100% range in CMYKcm mode.

If printing tests, when knowing what light colors do, you can define the tests that the ink split levels don't play any role. I will proof that during next week, I do not have the printer at home.

I know exactly what the optimizer does. Why the use of two optimizer heads? I have never heard a really good explanation for that.

More optimizer on the media, together with the more efficient curing module, will allow to put more ink on the media without drying problems or Coalescence. The latex 300 and the latex 500 are not different in print speeds, but with the latex 500 more saturated prints are possible. So, if the highest suggested speed for indoor printing on a latex 300 was 8 Passes, it is now 6 Passes (outdoor printing 4 Passes instead of 6 passes).

Coming from you, really?

I'm not a salesperson.

But you didn't do the test in CMYK mode or did you? So do I have to assume you used CMYKcm mode 5 swatches and CMYK mode in the other swatches? So as you say your not sure where the ink splits/curves are for the light inks so you don't know how much light inks are used in say the 70% to 100% range in CMYKcm mode. The only real way to test this is to use both color modes and see what the differences are and in color consistency using one mode over the other, and to use real world print jobs, not just color targets with small patches of various colors.

Standard targets are needed to measure the colors with the Spectro. But of course I haven't printed just a target every 2 Meters, but have embedded that targets into a print. I have done a "real world test" some months ago, mostly pure red (100/100) over 10 Meters, and had a deviation too.

I will proof the light color issue next week when I'm on a machine the next time.

 

[dypinc]

If printing tests, when knowing what light colors do, you can define the tests that the ink split levels don't play any role. I will proof that during next week, I do not have the printer at home.

That is exactly what I asked, but you still won't tell, or don't know enough to be able to tell me. The only way you can be sure that no light inks are used even at 100% of Cyan or Magenta is to use CMYK Mode.

More optimizer on the media, together with the more efficient curing module, will allow to put more ink on the media without drying problems or Coalescence. The latex 300 and the latex 500 are not different in print speeds, but with the latex 500 more saturated prints are possible. So, if the highest suggested speed for indoor printing on a latex 300 was 8 Passes, it is now 6 Passes (outdoor printing 4 Passes instead of 6 passes).

So with 500s to put more optimizer on the media HP will now use 2 optimizer heads. Sound perfectly reasonable to me just like 2 C/K and 2 M/Y heads. But why only 1 lc/lm head? Can you define the real difference between indoor printing and outdoor, what makes one indoor and one outdoor. Without real world experience all you know is what HP tells you and you repeat it without even knowing why.

I'm not a salesperson.

You may not be, but you come across as really not knowing what your talking about other than what HP tells you which for some things is rather limited.

Standard targets are needed to measure the colors with the Spectro. But of course I haven't printed just a target every 2 Meters, but have embedded that targets into a print.

Standard targets ARE NOT needed to measure colors with a Spectro. With the correct software you can measure the values of any color. Try Measure Toll in Profilemaker Pro for one, using Spot Measure you can set one for the reference and the other or next measurement as a sample. I have posted a file for you to print in 10 pass or lower and no inter-swath delay. You can probably visually see what is happening in CMYKcm Mode, but you can also read a spot measurement anywhere you want. You will see that where there is minimal purple it will look different than where there is purple across the whole print. Now try the same file in CMYK Mode.

I have done a "real world test" some months ago, mostly pure red (100/100) over 10 Meters, and had a deviation too.

Did you do this test in CMYK or CMYKcm Mode? If in CMYKcm Mode with Color Management you don't have a clue about how much light ink was used at 100% unless you know how HP has set the light ink curves. And even without color management you still have no clue how much HP has set for lm use at 100% Magenta.

 

[AF]

When I see canned profiles from HP that are so poorly done I can only cringe at the thought of those same people "locking in" in their preferred settings like light ink curves on the 300 and 500 series. I suppose we will keep our 260 going and wait for the 600 series

 

[FrankW]

@ AF:

Shure on a 600-Series anything would be different? HP have wanted to create an easy to use color profiling solution for all the people who do color management by "try-and-error" (and this are a lot). Of course it lacks of functionality, I have asked for some things too, but HP says "if you want to have more settings, continue profiling in a RIP".

And, to be honest, in comparison to use generic profiles or other downloaded from the internet, the system works fine.

About the profiles downloadable from HP: For the 260, most of the profiles downloadable from e. g. the media solutions locator are collected by HP, not created (as far as I know).