Best Plotter for 21mil MX Graphics

[Wrap Colorado]

Hey guys,

Looking for real life experience on the best cutter to run Substance vinyl for MX Graphics.

Currently operate a fairy new Summa S2T160 w/ 5 rollers and have had nothing but issues, as others have had in this line of work. Yes the Summa can cut through the vinyl no problem, but it can’t track for the life of it with a 36x70 sheet, and cuts off its marks 95% of the time.
running a 60° blade at 600g with the smallest amount of blade exposed to cut through the material. Not cutting through the backing, although that’d be ideal.

Feed in/out table is not really an option, as I cut normal cast and calendered vinyl daily and don’t have the biggest shop to be tossing all that around.

Also don’t think a flatbed cutter would be in the cards currently, but I'm open to the idea. Would love to hear what others have run for flatbeds. Seeing as the main benefit would be MX graphics, I don’t think a Summa F series is cost effective at all given the high price tag.

Had an old graphtec before this new Summa cutter and it hardly let me down compared to now. And I only paid 250$ for that out the door.

Is a graphtec FC9000 more capable for this line of work. Are the pinch rollers all full pressure? Or just the outer 2 like summa?Currently Summa also can’t read marks on clear vinyl with a brown liner, which is a huge let down, leaving me to waste a lot of time slipping white behind all the marks.

Hoping to streamline this process next year and currently the cutter is our biggest source of bottlenecks and cause for reprint.

 

[balstestrat]

I usually ask this so I will ask from you as well.
Are you running the cutter with "Paneling" turned on?

I don't think the Graphtec will read transparents or reflective any better than Summa but I might be wrong.

Easier solution could be to purchase transparents with white backing.

 

[Wrap Colorado]

I usually ask this so I will ask from you as well.
Are you running the cutter with "Paneling" turned on?

I don't think the Graphtec will read transparents or reflective any better than Summa but I might be wrong.

Easier solution could be to purchase transparents with white backing.

Yes to paneling. If it wasn’t, it’d ruin the whole sheet. Usually messes up the first section of cut and I can hand cut to save the sheet. I’ve hand cut more graphics than I’ve ever hoped to. Only transparent from substance is brown backed, have no issues with other transparents, but for Moto it’s a must. There is something on FC9000s ability to read marks on different backgrounds in their brochure, just hoping for real life experience. Substance recommended graphtec for that issue as well.

 

[Saturn]

How many passes are you doing, or did I miss that?

 

[Wrap Colorado]

How many passes are you doing, or did I miss that?

I’m going one pass on the cut, but not having an issue cutting through. If I go 2 passes at lower force, it never cuts in line the second pass.

 

[unclebun]

We use an old Mimaki CG-FX 130. We use Substance, but not the clear, so I have no idea if it would read the marks. When we have trouble with it reading marks, we put a piece of application tape over the marks and redraw them with a superfine Sharpie.

 

[stxrmxn]

Summa is garbage for this line of work even with additional pinch rollers, we ended up being refunded for our ST after it ruined about 4k worth of material. Not many people on here have "real life experience" of cutting this stuff and will tell you its a great cutter but bottom line is it doesnt work for Substance. We have 2 FC8000 cutters now. outer rollers full pressure middle half. You need tables either side, if you dont have the space dont bother because it is essential.

 

[Wrap Colorado]

Summa is garbage for this line of work even with additional pinch rollers, we ended up being refunded for our ST after it ruined about 4k worth of material. Not many people on here have "real life experience" of cutting this stuff and will tell you its a great cutter but bottom line is it doesnt work for Substance. We have 2 FC8000 cutters now. outer rollers full pressure middle half. You need tables either side, if you dont have the space dont bother because it is essential.

Was hoping to hear your solution to the problem. Sounds like a flatbed is the way to go. Would rather not use a feed in and out table and take up all that space while still not cutting all the way through. Maybe next year we’ll push that direction. Appreciate everyone’s info

 

[GiveUsSigns]

We are in the exact same boat here. As an analogy, I told the tech yesterday, I am on bridge, stuck in the middle, do I turn back, try to cross to the other side? or just jump off.

We are experiencing the exact same issues with our new S2T140. One issue that has come up cutting Substance X1 and 10 mil or 15mil lam is a small amount of cut debris begins to collect in the knife nipple.
I have to excavate that after every cut, some times the waste is significantly hindering, I have been cutting 30"x65" sheets. It starts out cutting fine, but as the sheet moves upward, the accuracy starts to diminish.
I too have ruined at least 75' of material with inaccurate cuts. Plus the collection of slivers of vinyl/laminate is trying. The Summa cuts it, but loses accuracy and cut pressure as the work progresses through the cutter.
I was cutting hamburger style, long way, then I tried rotating the material 90degrees to hotdog style to help alleviate the drag of the long material as it cuts. That seemed to help a little, but has not remedied the accuracy problem.
Tech support has been quite helpful actually as we ending up switching to the 45 degree double wedge blade and are currently adjusting various parameters to see if that helps.
As mentioned, I think the flatbed is the best option for Substance, but for us (and many I am sure) is a substantial cost to purchase for a small shop.(could lease, yes)
I know people say switch, but Substance is the given/goto material for offroad graphics. It is durable, heavy duty and just plane awesome for offroad.

There is my two cents.

 

[Wrap Colorado]

We are in the exact same boat here. As an analogy, I told the tech yesterday, I am on bridge, stuck in the middle, do I turn back, try to cross to the other side? or just jump off.

We are experiencing the exact same issues with our new S2T140. One issue that has come up cutting Substance X1 and 10 mil or 15mil lam is a small amount of cut debris begins to collect in the knife nipple.
I have to excavate that after every cut, some times the waste is significantly hindering, I have been cutting 30"x65" sheets. It starts out cutting fine, but as the sheet moves upward, the accuracy starts to diminish.
I too have ruined at least 75' of material with inaccurate cuts. Plus the collection of slivers of vinyl/laminate is trying. The Summa cuts it, but loses accuracy and cut pressure as the work progresses through the cutter.
I was cutting hamburger style, long way, then I tried rotating the material 90degrees to help alleviate the drag of the long material as it cuts. That seemed to help a lost, but has not remedied the accuracy problem.
Tech support has been quite helpful actually as we ending up switching to the 45 degree double wedge blade and are currently adjusting various parameters to see if that helps.
As mentioned, I think the flatbed is the best option for Substance, but for us (and many I am sure) is a substantial cost to purchase for a small shop.(could lease, yes)
I know people say switch, but Substance is the given/goto material for offroad graphics. It is durable, heavy duty and just plane awesome for offroad.

There is my two cents.

it’s definitely exhausting to waste so much time and material reprinting kits that already have tight margins. I haven’t run into the sliver issue, I cut one pass, that could be why, two pass would make sense to get lam all over. I’ve heard it all now, I also try to get all my parts on a 30x60-75” sheet and feel that through. Using cotton swab to protect print from scratches. I read somewhere that you can lower the movement speed of the rollers in the service menu so they aren’t so abrupt.

I switched to Avery 2126 at one point and although it was ok, it isn’t substance, and now their lam choices are awesome. I have a 12’ table that I now no longer really need with a roll to roll laminator, so I might try to make a feed out table now. Whatever I can do to earn some money towards a flatbed. Don’t want to spend money earned on wraps to fuel a project that’s not as profitable currently.

 

[Retro Graphics]

it’s definitely exhausting to waste so much time and material reprinting kits that already have tight margins. I haven’t run into the sliver issue, I cut one pass, that could be why, two pass would make sense to get lam all over. I’ve heard it all now, I also try to get all my parts on a 30x60-75” sheet and feel that through. Using cotton swab to protect print from scratches. I read somewhere that you can lower the movement speed of the rollers in the service menu so they aren’t so abrupt.

I switched to Avery 2126 at one point and although it was ok, it isn’t substance, and now their lam choices are awesome. I have a 12’ table that I now no longer really need with a roll to roll laminator, so I might try to make a feed out table now. Whatever I can do to earn some money towards a flatbed. Don’t want to spend money earned on wraps to fuel a project that’s not as profitable currently.

I always wondered what vinyl people use on MX stuff. I've had clients ask me about it before, but I've never had any luck with wrap vinyl on the MX plastic so I don't offer it. I have a Mimaki UCJV300-160, would it be able to print on the materials and what are the materials used? Which vendor do you get them from? Currently I use mostly Fellers for my basic vinyl needs as they have a local storehouse nearby I can do free pickup for. Lots of guys 4wheel around here so that could be a useful side option for me possibly.

 

[GiveUsSigns]

This is where we get Substance. It is great thick and durable stuff. It is just presenting cutting issues with reel to reel cutters.
It has just been quite frustrating.
Substance Incorporated - MX.ATV.SNOW MEDIA

 

[balstestrat]

We are in the exact same boat here. As an analogy, I told the tech yesterday, I am on bridge, stuck in the middle, do I turn back, try to cross to the other side? or just jump off.

We are experiencing the exact same issues with our new S2T140. One issue that has come up cutting Substance X1 and 10 mil or 15mil lam is a small amount of cut debris begins to collect in the knife nipple.
I have to excavate that after every cut, some times the waste is significantly hindering, I have been cutting 30"x65" sheets. It starts out cutting fine, but as the sheet moves upward, the accuracy starts to diminish.
I too have ruined at least 75' of material with inaccurate cuts. Plus the collection of slivers of vinyl/laminate is trying. The Summa cuts it, but loses accuracy and cut pressure as the work progresses through the cutter.
I was cutting hamburger style, long way, then I tried rotating the material 90degrees to hotdog style to help alleviate the drag of the long material as it cuts. That seemed to help a little, but has not remedied the accuracy problem.
Tech support has been quite helpful actually as we ending up switching to the 45 degree double wedge blade and are currently adjusting various parameters to see if that helps.
As mentioned, I think the flatbed is the best option for Substance, but for us (and many I am sure) is a substantial cost to purchase for a small shop.(could lease, yes)
I know people say switch, but Substance is the given/goto material for offroad graphics. It is durable, heavy duty and just plane awesome for offroad.

There is my two cents.

I'll ask you as well. Are you using Panelling for more accuracy?

 

[balstestrat]

it’s definitely exhausting to waste so much time and material reprinting kits that already have tight margins. I haven’t run into the sliver issue, I cut one pass, that could be why, two pass would make sense to get lam all over. I’ve heard it all now, I also try to get all my parts on a 30x60-75” sheet and feel that through. Using cotton swab to protect print from scratches. I read somewhere that you can lower the movement speed of the rollers in the service menu so they aren’t so abrupt.

I switched to Avery 2126 at one point and although it was ok, it isn’t substance, and now their lam choices are awesome. I have a 12’ table that I now no longer really need with a roll to roll laminator, so I might try to make a feed out table now. Whatever I can do to earn some money towards a flatbed. Don’t want to spend money earned on wraps to fuel a project that’s not as profitable currently.

Yeah if you have default speeds you should definitely slow it down.
Just download Summa cutter control from summa website and connect to the cutter.
You will see list of settings and there is speeds and acceleration values. Take them way down and add more if you feel like it went too slow.

 

[Wrap Colorado]

Yeah if you have default speeds you should definitely slow it down.
Just download Summa cutter control from summa website and connect to the cutter.
You will see list of settings and there is speeds and acceleration values. Take them way down and add more if you feel like it went too slow.

Yea I acceleration needs to be slowed down. I cut pretty slow as is.

 

[GiveUsSigns]

Yeah if you have default speeds you should definitely slow it down.
Just download Summa cutter control from summa website and connect to the cutter.
You will see list of settings and there is speeds and acceleration values. Take them way down and add more if you feel like it went too slow.

We have dialed all the speeds down, we are trying some other things here in a bit this morning.
We could do a double cut, but with the accuracy issue, I wouldn't trust where my 2nd cut would end up.

 

[Saturn]

Out of curiosity, what's one of the max dimensions of some of the shapes you're cutting? I assume 24"—30"?

 

[GiveUsSigns]

Out of curiosity, what's one of the max dimensions of some of the shapes you're cutting? I assume 24"—30"?

No, We are cutting sheets of smaller graphics like 4"x6" decals with a fairly specific contour cut, like 40-60 on a sheet

 

[Saturn]

I had some sample 15mil Substance laminate laying around and had to give this a shot. I put it on top of some GF 6mil stuff, so we're around 21mil total.

Couple thoughts...

I agree that it probably can't be cut in a single pass easily... I usually hit all my contour cuts with two passes as default, and as I watched it cut this 21mil combo, the first pass definitely struggled to enter the material well. This was at 600gr pressure with a 45 degree blade that is about half to 3/4 through it's lifespan.

With two passes, it could be done! As the photo shows. If you watch close as it cuts, the material does get pushed around a bit where it's cutting so I can't imagine doing this with fewer pinch rollers. Definitely not going to be as accurate as cutting through 3 or 6 mil stuff, and I'd also be a little squeamish about running it at max pressure all the time, unless the profit outweighed the increase in wear and tear.

Not sure if this would actually help, but I want to point out again that if you load the sheet with a really low speed the Summa will not "weigh" things in it's initial Autoload. What I did was leave it set to 16ips/400mms when I loaded it—and then change it to a slower 4ips/100mms immediately after it loaded.

Maybe a sharper blade, or 60 degree one might work better? For 30" stuff I'm sure the infeed and outfeed are helping as much to keep the front and back from banging on the catch baskets and floor as they are carrying the weight or allowing easier movement. This stuff is so glossy and so rigid you can bet if it taps anything while cutting it's not going to be good.

My cuts were more or less "okay", but I can see how the blade "origin" setting could affect things even more negatively than on thinner stickers. Especially with two passes. That could also be the cause of some of the debris and slivers.

 

[Wrap Colorado]

I had some sample 15mil Substance laminate laying around and had to give this a shot. I put it on top of some GF 6mil stuff, so we're around 21mil total.

Couple thoughts...

I agree that it probably can't be cut in a single pass easily... I usually hit all my contour cuts with two passes as default, and as I watched it cut this 21mil combo, the first pass definitely struggled to enter the material well. This was at 600gr pressure with a 45 degree blade that is about half to 3/4 through it's lifespan.

With two passes, it could be done! As the photo shows. If you watch close as it cuts, the material does get pushed around a bit where it's cutting so I can't imagine doing this with fewer pinch rollers. Definitely not going to be as accurate as cutting through 3 or 6 mil stuff, and I'd also be a little squeamish about running it at max pressure all the time, unless the profit outweighed the increase in wear and tear.

Not sure if this would actually help, but I want to point out again that if you load the sheet with a really low speed the Summa will not "weigh" things in it's initial Autoload. What I did was leave it set to 16ips/400mms when I loaded it—and then change it to a slower 4ips/100mms immediately after it loaded.

Maybe a sharper blade, or 60 degree one might work better? For 30" stuff I'm sure the infeed and outfeed are helping as much to keep the front and back from banging on the catch baskets and floor as they are carrying the weight or allowing easier movement. This stuff is so glossy and so rigid you can bet if it taps anything while cutting it's not going to be good.

My cuts were more or less "okay", but I can see how the blade "origin" setting could affect things even more negatively than on thinner stickers. Especially with two passes. That could also be the cause of some of the debris and slivers.

Our sheets are 30” x minimum of 60”. If I cut them into two sheets per kit, I’m throwing away even more money.

I definitely am lacking trust in my S2T lately. It’s fucked up almost as much as it’s done right. Yea, maybe user error, guess I should’ve bought it from a company who knew more about it, who could maybe help me get past it.

Leaning towards finding a flatbed next year. Only thing I trust the Summa for is kisscut. I set up for flex cut tonight, followed their setup video exactly, as it never seems to work for me, and thought i had it perfect. Walked away and came back to a mangled mess. Fml, another reprint.