Colorado 1650 poor black color

[Zhivko Yanakiev]

Hi
А new Colorado 1650 user here
Recently we switched from a HP Latex 570 + Seiko Colorpainter M-64 duet to a Colorado 1650. The initial excitement subsided and we are now being hit by the reality. We can't print rich black! The darkest we can get is a sort of 90%K. Any attempts wander between greenish and bluish nuance of something like black. By saying ''any attempts'' I mean that I've tryed:
- saving a file with and without embedded profile - Fogra 39 and SWOPv2 for CMYK. Adobe RGB (1998) for RGB
- saving as CMYK and as RGB
- different settings for the PDF. Here I played a lot with the settings in Output.
- ripping with icc profiles ON and OFF
- ripping a file with(out) embedded profile with different icc profiles
- printing in different modes
- printing on different medias
- printing with different temp. under the hood - from 21 to 33C (69,8 to 91,4F)
So, I've spent the last two months trying different combinations of all mentioned above. Went through hundreds of test prints and always with the same result. Poor black! Printing 50 50 50 100 on the Seiko looks as black as a black hole. Same file, printed on the Latex, also gives a pretty decent black. Printed on the Colorado is like 80-90%K. Frustrating!
Any thoughts, ideas and comments are wellcome.

 

[Pauly]

This is with in the media ICC profile. not how you set up the file in this case.

With this level of printer, you would have some sort of understanding on how colour works with media profiles etc.
because everything you've listed will not affect how the printer puts it's colours down.
Only '"ICC profiles on and off"

I get perfect blacks all the time with the 1650.

 

[iPrintStuff]

Our 1640 does great blacks but we do create our own profiles.

Might be worth looking at the file on the job editor and using the colour replacement to give the black a 40, 40, 40, 100 or whatever and see how that turns out. Would be interesting to see what it thinks it should do with your blacks. If you hover over the colour it’ll give you an idea.

 

[Bly]

This has to be a profile problem.
Our 1650 prints the most solid blacks I've had off a printer.

 

[FireSprint.com]

Agree, our 1650 runs rich black without issue. You need a new profile.

 

[Zhivko Yanakiev]

Thanks for all comments.
We actually tryed making a new profile, with the support of our ink supplier, for our most used media - Avery MPI 1105, since it is the most troublemaking. And there was a difference! The black was darker than the previous prints with no green/blue shades. But as soon as it was installed on a black car (partial wrap) the color difference was obvious.
Clarification: None of us expects a perfect color match. There is always a visible difference between a printed black and the car's color. Due to the vinyl structure, different reflection from the laminate and ofcourse because it's a different black. But now it's simply dark grey.

Regarding what Pauly said. Yes, 'All profiles OFF' brings a significant difference. But works fine only for spot colors.

As iPrintStuff suggested, I've tryed with color replacement (make it 50 50 50 100) but as soon as the color is processed it looks something like 1 68 82 98. No matter which media profile is selected the C is almost gone. In another discussion here I saw comments about how embedded CMYK profiles could lead to a lower level of C when the file is being ripped. So that's why I've been playing with this. Unfortunately unsuccesful. And if I switch to 'All profiles OFF' then I have 50 50 50 100, but the color is an absolute sh*t.

But since everyone is recommending new profiles I assume we should focus on that.
Thanks again.

 

[Jester1167]

Have you checked your max ink color limits in the RIP Profile?

50 50 50 100 = 250 and if you have a max ink limit less than that, it has to make a decision on which channels and how much of each to ditch...

P.S. you don't need that much yellow to make a rich black but some does help to avoid a purple cast.

 

[Zhivko Yanakiev]

Have you checked your max ink color limits in the RIP Profile?

50 50 50 100 = 250 and if you have a max ink limit less than that, it has to make a decision on which channels and how much of each to ditch...

P.S. you don't need that much yellow to make a rich black but some does help to avoid a purple cast.

I don't have the ONYX infront of me now to check the values, but I think I tried with having the IL up to 400, which gradually made the color look more rough the closer I was to 400.

 

[Jester1167]

Wow. that's seems way high. With our Rollands, we never went past 280. Of course, that was because of all the solvents degrading the media and dot gain in the darker colors.

You don't have the same concerns with UV but somewhere in the mid 300s you're just wasting money and losing contrast.

 

[jasonx]

If ICC Profiles off gives you the black. Then its clearly an ICC profile issue. Maybe someone here can post an ICC profile they are using and you could test using that?

 

[Bly]

Mate try one of the Canon profiles from their downloadable library. They are usually quite good.

 

[ikarasu]

Do you not have a dealer close by who can come take a look?

For the price of the machine..the dealer should be out giving you a hand, especially if its new.

Maybe post some pictures so people can see what it looks like and give better advice. But personally... I'd ask the people who sold you the machine to come look at it. On here people can only guess... For all we know your black is getting ink starved and even if you do 100/100/100/100 its only printing half the amount of black as it should.

 

[KEYSER SOZE]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but.....
If you have a Seiko/Oki M64s, you will never get close to that Black with your 1650.

Seiko/Oki's produce by far the deepest black of any wide format printer, be it solvent, latex, or UV.
We got our Colorado 1650 about 14 months ago, but we kept our 2x M64s for for that very reason, it looks like black vinyl.

The Colorado has been fabulous for us in so many ways, I love it, but the black is crap.
Throwing in extra CMY doesn't help like it does with solvent or latex, the ink goes down differently on the 1650.

If you want to see the best black you'll get, just run a Printhead Quality Check.
Amongst the images it prints are solid CMYK panels, the black printed there is as good as it gets.
If you are not getting that black when you send "profiles off" files to your 1650, take it up with Canon.

That said, stick with it, the 1650 is a fabulous bit of kit.

 

[Zhivko Yanakiev]

Mate try one of the Canon profiles from their downloadable library. They are usually quite good.

Indeed they are. The accuracy thay deliver with the Panotone colors is unbelievable. But this doesn't help in the problem with the black.

 

[Zhivko Yanakiev]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but.....
If you have a Seiko/Oki M64s, you will never get close to that Black with your 1650.

Seiko/Oki's produce by far the deepest black of any wide format printer, be it solvent, latex, or UV.
We got our Colorado 1650 about 14 months ago, but we kept our 2x M64s for for that very reason, it looks like black vinyl.

The Colorado has been fabulous for us in so many ways, I love it, but the black is crap.
Throwing in extra CMY doesn't help like it does with solvent or latex, the ink goes down differently on the 1650.

If you want to see the best black you'll get, just run a Printhead Quality Check.
Amongst the images it prints are solid CMYK panels, the black printed there is as good as it gets.
If you are not getting that black when you send "profiles off" files to your 1650, take it up with Canon.

That said, stick with it, the 1650 is a fabulous bit of kit.

Totaly agree. It is an impressive machine.
Are you sure about that printhead check? It prints the four colors separately, meaning that the black is just K and can be way better than that.
Regarding what you said about the Seiko. I talked to our CANON guy and he, kind of, confirmed that SEIKO's black is unachievable. So it's kind of dead end. The best we can get is to make better profiles to get rid of the unwanted nuances.
,

 

[Zhivko Yanakiev]

Do you not have a dealer close by who can come take a look?

For the price of the machine..the dealer should be out giving you a hand, especially if its new.

Maybe post some pictures so people can see what it looks like and give better advice. But personally... I'd ask the people who sold you the machine to come look at it. On here people can only guess... For all we know your black is getting ink starved and even if you do 100/100/100/100 its only printing half the amount of black as it should.

This is where we started from. We had a visit from the local CANON dealer and we got the new profile I mentioned above. It was a half a win since the black he achieved was more pure, but not as dence/dark/smelly as we were hoping for.
I actually need kind of brainstorming session, so all ideas, guesses and comments just make my brain move

 

[Zhivko Yanakiev]

Wow. that's seems way high. With our Rollands, we never went past 280. Of course, that was because of all the solvents degrading the media and dot gain in the darker colors.

You don't have the same concerns with UV but somewhere in the mid 300s you're just wasting money and losing contrast.

Of course 400 is crazy. Those were just test prints in order to get the blackest black...ever!

 

[KEYSER SOZE]

Totaly agree. It is an impressive machine.
Are you sure about that printhead check? It prints the four colors separately, meaning that the black is just K and can be way better than that.
Regarding what you said about the Seiko. I talked to our CANON guy and he, kind of, confirmed that SEIKO's black is unachievable. So it's kind of dead end. The best we can get is to make better profiles to get rid of the unwanted nuances.
,

You're right, it is just K only in the printhead check, and yes it needs a bit of CMY to get the best result.
The point was to compare the 100% K Colorado swatch with the same 100% K print from the Seiko/Oki, it's night and day.
Hilariously, here in Australia Canon also sell the OKI M64s in the same showroom in Melbourne as the 1650 - I'd bet they never demonstrate the 2 machines at the same time.

It was a hard sell to our customers when we first got the Colorado after they were used to 12 years of Seiko blacks.
The mix I use on all black vectors on the Colorado is 20/20/10/100, any more than that you start going backwards.
Our vectors default in ONYX is always "profiles off", it still recognises PMS and gives more vibrant solid colours.

On the up side - yellows, oranges, and bright greens are better on the Colorado, greys are more neutral also.
Good luck.

 

[Zhivko Yanakiev]

You're right, it is just K only in the printhead check, and yes it needs a bit of CMY to get the best result.
The point was to compare the 100% K Colorado swatch with the same 100% K print from the Seiko/Oki, it's night and day.
Hilariously, here in Australia Canon also sell the OKI M64s in the same showroom in Melbourne as the 1650 - I'd bet they never demonstrate the 2 machines at the same time.

It was a hard sell to our customers when we first got the Colorado after they were used to 12 years of Seiko blacks.
The mix I use on all black vectors on the Colorado is 20/20/10/100, any more than that you start going backwards.
Our vectors default in ONYX is always "profiles off", it still recognises PMS and gives more vibrant solid colours.

On the up side - yellows, oranges, and bright greens are better on the Colorado, greys are more neutral also.
Good luck.

Same story here. CANON are selling SEIKO/OKI. I will try that 20 20 20 100 . I noticed that 4x100 is being processed to lower levels of CMYK than the 50 50 50 100.
Thanks!

 

[aparat]

hi, just found out that all profiles that are made for the 356B type ink - have a greenish black.
If you are in europe you probably have 356A type ink.. So be careful to use only profiles that are made for this type of ink.
The difference is huge..