Discussion Considering the switch to latex, Who's done it and Whats your thoughts

[Zambookajoe]

Currently running a Mimaki JV150-160, ss21 inks, machine runs perfectly.

The only reason why we're considering the switch is to eliminate the outgas wait times of solvent and have the ability to finish jobs faster.

Ive been to a demo of a HP 560, looks quite different, but good, salesman is really pushing these machines
but he still has not convinced me.(I have a the price is hand and just need to sign the papers)

For the ones that made the switch or running both solvent and latex, what are the pro's and cons of latex, I need to hear it from an actual user then a seller.

 

[AF]

Latex is a mixed bag. You can get a machine that works flawlessly for years, or you can get a dud that can never be properly fixed and will cost you your livelihood. I have been around long enough to see the landscape change over and over, latex is worth having for the quick turnaround but you will find the gamut to be a challenge and the plastic parts require the care that employees rarely give. We currently use an L260 and plan to keep it going since it is the last version with full user control (not contone) which allows us to get incredible color on certain materials. Colorgate is the rip we prefer. Summa S2T for automated flawless cut / perf jobs.

 

[kanini]

Did add a L260 some time ago as our first latex and was impressed by speed and quality. Minuses was warmup time, noise and the media loading. We switched to a L360 and the 3rd gen. (as the 560 is) has improved a lot. Fast warmup, lower noise and easier loading. Also I feel the print quality is better. The 560 is a great machine in my opinion with even more improvements. They are also easy to use but as AF stated the machine does all the profiling etc. so you do have less user control, but if you have employees running it, it's better in my opinion because the profiling works, the color adjistments (auto) works and you can focus on printing instead of fiddling with settings.
If you switch material very often during the day I still feel an eco-sol is maybe faster but I would never buy another eco-sol as it is today. In fact, we are now adding another latex to the lineup which will replace an older Roland.
Good luck with whatever route you go for your new machine and hope you get some other opinions as well! =)

 

[Reveal1]

Currently running a Mimaki JV150-160, ss21 inks, machine runs perfectly.

The only reason why we're considering the switch is to eliminate the outgas wait times of solvent and have the ability to finish jobs faster.

Ive been to a demo of a HP 560, looks quite different, but good, salesman is really pushing these machines
but he still has not convinced me.(I have a the price is hand and just need to sign the papers)

For the ones that made the switch or running both solvent and latex, what are the pro's and cons of latex, I need to hear it from an actual user then a seller.

I started my business seven years ago with the L25500. We added the 560 4 months ago with the idea we would just run banners on the 25500. First day, the operator came in at noon and was finished with the schedule we had lined up that normally was a day's work. Now my operators don't even want to use the 25500 as the start to finish time even switching materials is always faster than running the 25500 preloaded. I can't imagine using a solvent machine due to the wait for lamination. Plus we have cut our lamination by 1/3 due to more durable prints with HP Optimizer (less ink scratching). Color is almost never an issue as long as you remember to update calibration occasionally using the on board I1 - it is dead simple. I think HP as evolved the technology to eliminate almost every problem we had with the older version.

 

[tetonsio]

Why don't you check for the latest látex RICOH? LESS TEMPERATURE, 110 volts, easy loading as your Mimaki, really fast. Much more simpler to use. Just an idea.

 

[ExecuPrintGS]

We had a CJV30-130 for about 3 years, and a roland before that.
Loved the mimaki but out-gas times were killing production. I came in one Monday after a weekend storm to find the mimaki had fried in a lightning strike.
We went on a mad hunt and got a HP L360 bought and installed in under a week. I love the quality and quickness of the printing, and the separate printer from the cutter (we bought a graphtec to partner with the new HP).
Production and work flow has sped up a ton, i can get more jobs in and out quicker and if a mistake happens on a wrap we can just re-print the piece and be back up and moving in hours not days... That said, the color range is pretty sad. I know a lot of people say you can hit the nice reds with a good profile but we haven't seen it no matter what we do.

Overall experience has been great, HP support is very quick and any time we had an issue they were out the next day with replacement parts limiting down time.

 

[myront]

We went from a Mimaki to HP360. Hate everything about the 360 as seen throughout these forums. The latest 560 looks like a huge improvement. Maybe HP is actually listening to their users and correcting things. As for going Latex? Good move for the ability to laminate right away. Color will take some time and money to get right. Don't believe the "speed reports". No one can print using those parameters and produce good colors. All the colors look as though they have milk mixed with the inks. Yes, you can get it right but you'll have to hire people at a significant cost to get you there

 

[TravinFlavin]

I LOVE our HP360. All default settings and profiles seem to work great. Never had any color issues on our end except once where a yellow gradient made a hard shift in the middle. But generally it's been great. Hardy print quality, fast turn around, lam right away if needed. My only qualm with it is it doesn't take leafs of vinyl, you have to load/print an entire roll everytime which can create a lot of waste if you do a lot of smaller decals or switch rolls often.

 

[TomK]

You should take a look at the Epson S80, while Eco-sol you can still lam the same day. I am an HP Latex 3xx user and considering adding the S80 to my workflow due to print quality on the 3xx series latex machines. That being said, we do close up stickers (1 foot or closer) and need a better quality DPI and ink droplet size then the HP Latex can deliver.

 

[bannertime]

That being said, we do close up stickers (1 foot or closer) and need a better quality DPI and ink droplet size then the HP Latex can deliver.

I agree. We don't do a lot of indoor stuff, so the 300 series has been perfect for us. If we did more decals, we'd look into the S80 as well.

 

[myront]

I LOVE our HP360. All default settings and profiles seem to work great. Never had any color issues on our end except once where a yellow gradient made a hard shift in the middle. But generally it's been great. Hardy print quality, fast turn around, lam right away if needed. My only qualm with it is it doesn't take leafs of vinyl, you have to load/print an entire roll everytime which can create a lot of waste if you do a lot of smaller decals or switch rolls often.

And your experience with loading/unloading the 360? Major pita when compared to Mimaki. We change substrates 5-10 times a day.
Oh, and the 6-8 ft of waste to connect to the take-up. If you skip the take up you get head strikes out the wazoo! And what about the procedure for using the take-up? Another pita! We had to rig it with velcro straps to make any sense of it. And if you want to tape it up to the take-up on the fly, as we would easily do on the Mimaki, better have a clean floor as you'll have to lay on your back to tape it.

Like I said, looks like HP has addressed all these issues with the 560.

 

[AF]

The takeup on the 260 is easy. Just tape the print to the core when it gets there and turn on the rewind sensor. I never use the front panel for takeup. You can also wrap a leader on the core and tape it to your media to avoid waste at the start of the print. Sounds like the 360 took a step backwards on the takeup.

 

[P Wagner]

The takeup on the 260 is easy. Just tape the print to the core when it gets there and turn on the rewind sensor. I never use the front panel for takeup. You can also wrap a leader on the core and tape it to your media to avoid waste at the start of the print. Sounds like the 360 took a step backwards on the takeup.

The take-up system on the Latex 260 is very similar to the Latex 360.

The 500 Series uses a spindle-less media feed/ take-up system, which is quite different from the 300 Series.

 

[AKwrapguy]

We went from 2 HP800's to two HP570's. The difference is pretty astounding. While the 570's aren't with out their own issues they are pretty awesome machines. The profiling and color consistency are pretty great and I haven't had any issues with yet. To me it seems like the machines are set up so that once you dial them in to what you want, you could have a less experienced person operate them and not have any issues allowing you to focus on other things.

The ability to print and laminate directly afterwards has increased our turn around time greatly, often finishing the job the same day including some vehicle graphics. We are also able to print onto more different types of material as well to, HIP, and DG reflective used to require multiple steps such as printing onto clear, laminating it and than applying to to the HIP or DG. Now were are able to print directly onto HIP and DG reducing our cost and time.

The new GEN3 inks are also pretty awesome. Scratch resistance which I can verify, and according to HP they have about a one year outdoor un-laminated lifespan which is great if your doing temp signage.

The quality of the prints is also great. Colors are vibrant and with the dual head optimizer the drops don't migrate so the images stay sharp and clear.

Some of the con's might be that when printing the condenser fan is a little loud but nothing horrible. It does put of some heat and if your in the room with the printer and don't have proper ventilation is can get a little warm. When you begin printing it does waste a little more material than I would like (about 10-18 inches) but there are ways around this by attaching a leader to the front of the material.

One of the biggest suggestions I can give you is that you will need to run some material through the printer and set up you own profiles. It's pretty easy and while it does take some material and time it's worth it. Heat is the key, the material should be pretty flat running through the heater. The number of passes doesn't determine the amount of ink it lays down onto the material it determines the speed of the machine.

many people that go form solvent to latex have issues because they are still treating it as the same thing... it's not. So you might need to adjust you workflow a little to accommodate.

As far as printer build, again I have the 570 and it's a beast of a machine. While yes many of the parts and pieces are plastic, it's not flimsy and delicate, most of the pieces on all my solvent printers were also plastic (roland, mimaki, hp).

One thing to make sure you do is look at the site prep guidelines. They go over the power requirements and set up. Get a good electrician to set up this up for you.

As far as the disposables go it's something to think about it but it's not a cost prohibitive issue.

Over all I really glad that we made the switch and am very happy with the machine. I think that the biggest issue that you will have is dealing with the rip. I'm currently using Flexi and while it's 'fine' I have no doubt that there is probably something better out there.

Reach out to BigfishDM he's got deals all the time.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

You should take a look at the Epson S80, while Eco-sol you can still lam the same day. I am an HP Latex 3xx user and considering adding the S80 to my workflow due to print quality on the 3xx series latex machines. That being said, we do close up stickers (1 foot or closer) and need a better quality DPI and ink droplet size then the HP Latex can deliver.

We got our S80600 about a month ago. Hands down fastest and best quality printer in the shop (we have 3 other solvent, UV and aqueous machines).
Dry times I feel are even faster than Epson's quoted 6 hour estimates. For un-laminated decals, we can print and have them cut on the Graphtec after maybe 10 minutes dry time and out the door the same day.
Scratch resistance is amazing and gamut is absolutely out of this world. We did some Pantone 021C for a job yesterday and it looks identical to 3M's 7725 Bright Orange.
No issues with panel printing... colours always match between runs, so no need to reverse every other print and no issues with media buckling due to excessive heat.
I think the machine uses a whopping 650W during print which is less than our old Roland.

 

[dypinc]

I am curious about the current Epson style printhead technology. My previous experience with the Epson style printhead technology was that they were a nozzle clogging nightmare. Is that still a problem? If they sit for a week with out use etc.?

I would seriously consider the Epson but would be hesitant about them because of my past experience with there printheads. On the Aqueous side I got to using the Canon iPF printers and absolutely love their thermal heads which is why I initially went the HP Latex route but the HP printheads I am not so thrilled with. Better than what we had with the mild-solvent machines but nothing like Canon's thermal heads.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Completely new tech in the Sx0600 range. Inks are much less harsh on the heads. Spoke directly with Epson techs before buying ours. They've only done one head replacement so far... that's not a bad run imo.
We haven't had ours long enough to have any more than a weekend of down time, but the printer will do a quick automatic 3 minute maintenance cycle upon boot of a Monday morning and head tests all come up clean.
We have also been very lucky with our iPF8100. Only on to its 3rd head in 9 years. Still printing like a champ.

 

[particleman]

Currently running a Mimaki JV150-160, ss21 inks, machine runs perfectly.

The only reason why we're considering the switch is to eliminate the outgas wait times of solvent and have the ability to finish jobs faster.

Ive been to a demo of a HP 560, looks quite different, but good, salesman is really pushing these machines
but he still has not convinced me.(I have a the price is hand and just need to sign the papers)

For the ones that made the switch or running both solvent and latex, what are the pro's and cons of latex, I need to hear it from an actual user then a seller.

Just based on your goal of finishing jobs faster I think you'll find that is one of the latex machines best selling points. In my experience the 560/570 series is the best so far. I work closely with a shop that has 3 570s. Generally they are good machines and work horses. I have a 26500 and don't see myself returning to use solvent/eco solvent again. As others have correctly pointed out nothing is perfect, if the latex machines can print on your normal media and fit into your workflow I think you'll find them very nice to use.

 

[ams]

A local sign shop friend of mine has one and it's been troublesome for him. Steep learning curve, the machine acts weird and often breaks down. I won't try one.

 

[Bly]

To answer OP's question yes we ran Rolands for years then bought a L25500 when they were on special.
I was skeptical but was soon converted - we sold our 2 Rolands and got another latex.
Then upgraded to 360s which we still run today.
If you do many wraps they are perfect.
Also we provide a lot more unlaminated prints now because the vinyl doesn't get stretchy from the solvents and scratch resistance is pretty good.