Considering the "V" word...

[OldPaint]

1ST OFF flamey........you just shown your ignorance of what you know about being a vegetarian. I WAS A LACTO OVO VEGETARIAN for 19 years. i had no LETHARGY and i was never SKINNY, pale or gaunt. all the "veggies" i associated with in that time, were runners, cyclists, martial arts or swimmers. lots of LETHARGY there huh? and i always pointed out to those who think like flamey.........remember this, the biggest strongest jungle animal closely related to our physiology, IS A VEGAN..... the silverback gorilla!!!!!!!!! they are weak and lethargic hahahahahahaha.
i love all the experts on protein intake. you all need to redo your information. if i was PROTEIN DEFICIENT for 19 years of eating veggies, eggs, milk & cheese i guess i didnt know it and neither did my bloodwork or my body. i also became a vegetarian AFTER HAVING MY 1ST HEART ATTACK at 42. i attribute this life style change to fact i got 21 years of NO MEDICAL INTERVENTION(pills or doctors).
the best way to start this would be a LACTO-OVO VEGETARIAN. try this for 30-60 days. IF you dont see good changes and feel better .........then stop it. no harm no foul.
i am no longer a vegetarian. this is because of the way my body handles high carb content at 67. 3 cardiologists had me change because of this is how they said it:
85% of the cholesterol created in the body, comes from CARBOHYDRATES!!!!! as some bodies age this is detrimental. i now eat mostly chicken fish and STILL DO A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT of COMPLEX CARBS, staying totally away from SIMPLE CARBS. blood work last week, my bad cholesterol is still a little high, my good is a little low but overall number is on the high side of normal.
most here know the medical stuff i have been thru and i believe that the changes i made at 42, is why i came thru open heart surgery, 2 by-passes, and had no heart muscle loss. 3 months later i dropped dead, in a coma for 6 days, and as of march this year, MY HEART STILL HAS SUFFERED NO PERMANENT DAMAGE!!!!

 

[Flame]

1ST OFF flamey........you just shown your ignorance of what you know about being a vegetarian.

READ my post old man. lol. I wasn't making a universal blanket statement, was just saying all the people I PERSONALLY know. Thin, pasty, not exactly athletic looking. I know there are rad athletes out there that are straight vegan, but you gotta do it right.

i now eat mostly chicken fish

I think chicken, fish, lots of fresh fruits and veggies, and veryyyy light on the dairy and carbs, is an ideal diet. I'm not an expert but it's just my opinion from what I've observed.

 

[OldPaint]

FLAMEY......where you live....is why everybody is PASTY))))) (lack of sunshine)hahahahahahaha

 

[Flame]

FLAMEY......where you live....is why everybody is PASTY))))) (lack of sunshine)hahahahahahaha

Yeah yeah yeah rub it in.

 

[btropical.com]

all i thought was vagina

 

[James Burke]

all i thought was vagina

Absolutely amazing....we've gone from healthy eating...to sterilization...to a flat out total sex change all in one thread!

I think that's a record, isn't it?:ROFLMAO:

(In all honesty, that v-word crossed my mind after I first posted.....sheesh!)

JB

 

[OldPaint]

Vagina.......????? Where where????

 

[genericname]

Even though I've pondered it a while back, I've never fully understood the vegetarian or vegan thing from anything but an ethical standpoint. There are extreme cases, sure, where some people can't eat animal products for health reasons, but for the most part, so long as you keep balanced, you're fine.

We tend to have a bit of a pendulous approach to things, I find. When we have a diet rich in meat, and start to feel ill, or are overweight, often our first instinct isn't to cut back, it's to cut out.

I grew up eating terribly. My dad and I would grab fast food maybe two or three times a week. When I hit my teenage years, I became a trash compactor for junk food, and since my dad came from the "eat until you're full" mentality, he unfortunately didn't know to curb it. Mid-way through highschool, I was 250lbs. at 6ft tall, and by college I was 265. Not a huge amount of weight by some standards, but at 27 I'd already been diagnosed with high cholesterol and had knee surgery. Since then, my wife and I have been eachother's motivation, and I've reduced my portion sizes, along with the amount of refined sugars and saturated fats in my diet, as well as eliminated factory farmed meats. Seriously, this is not a hippy thing... there is crap in there that is killing us all slowly, and teaching our bodies to store fat rather than use energy. Good meat is a little more expensive, yes, but we should be eating less of it anyway, and it'll make you feel better. Anyway, after two years of rugby, and now admittedly lighter physical activity than I should be doing, I'm holding at 65lbs down, and no longer on cholesterol meds. Doctor says she's never seen as dramatic a change in levels as with me.

Moral of the story, don't deny yourself good things. Just make sure they're actually good.

As an amusing aside, the biggest guy on my old rugby team was and still is vegan. He's just over 350lbs, and he terrifies the hell out of anyone in his way on the pitch.

 

[ICeMAnAbk]

1ST OFF flamey........you just shown your ignorance of what you know about being a vegetarian. I WAS A LACTO OVO VEGETARIAN for 19 years. i had no LETHARGY and i was never SKINNY, pale or gaunt. all the "veggies" i associated with in that time, were runners, cyclists, martial arts or swimmers. lots of LETHARGY there huh? and i always pointed out to those who think like flamey.........remember this, the biggest strongest jungle animal closely related to our physiology, IS A VEGAN..... the silverback gorilla!!!!!!!!! they are weak and lethargic hahahahahahaha.
i love all the experts on protein intake. you all need to redo your information. if i was PROTEIN DEFICIENT for 19 years of eating veggies, eggs, milk & cheese i guess i didnt know it and neither did my bloodwork or my body. i also became a vegetarian AFTER HAVING MY 1ST HEART ATTACK at 42. i attribute this life style change to fact i got 21 years of NO MEDICAL INTERVENTION(pills or doctors).
the best way to start this would be a LACTO-OVO VEGETARIAN. try this for 30-60 days. IF you dont see good changes and feel better .........then stop it. no harm no foul.
i am no longer a vegetarian. this is because of the way my body handles high carb content at 67. 3 cardiologists had me change because of this is how they said it:
85% of the cholesterol created in the body, comes from CARBOHYDRATES!!!!! as some bodies age this is detrimental. i now eat mostly chicken fish and STILL DO A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT of COMPLEX CARBS, staying totally away from SIMPLE CARBS. blood work last week, my bad cholesterol is still a little high, my good is a little low but overall number is on the high side of normal.
most here know the medical stuff i have been thru and i believe that the changes i made at 42, is why i came thru open heart surgery, 2 by-passes, and had no heart muscle loss. 3 months later i dropped dead, in a coma for 6 days, and as of march this year, MY HEART STILL HAS SUFFERED NO PERMANENT DAMAGE!!!!

Seems like the Vegan way was workin good for ya. However, did you eat a lot of beans, soys in particular? There are some people for some reason say 1lb of body weight = 1gm of protein intake per day, which is a crazy amount to eat. I'm 5ft 6... 190lbs, I lift a lot, I'm rather built. I don't eat 190grams of protein a day, I eat maybe 100. The muscle magazines a lot of that information comes from is from columists without any degrees or any formal practice. All opinions thrown out there.... I can see 1lb = 1gm of protein, if you're doing roids, if you have a wish to die at 38 or something.

Protein intake is important for men though, it can't be overlooked. The amino acids and other small building blocks that repair your body while you're sleeping are critical, or you'd have lactic acid build up from physical labor, which your body goes into a cannabalistic state, takes muscle, turns into the building blocks and fixes itself.

Do you happen to eat a lot of shellfish? I saw fish, but wasn't sure if you included crab/lobster and other shelled fish in that. My step father's high cholestorol was caused by his love for shell fish. Which isn't bad, they have a lot of good parts, but he ate in excess since he lived on the shore of Long Island so wasn't hard to go catch a few lobsters a week for free dinner. He's scaled back dramatically on that, and eats red meat 1 or 2x a week, chicken mainly, pork, or grain pastas. Some shell fish in there too. His cholestorol did drop dramatically though. He's 65ish now btw.

 

[ICeMAnAbk]

Even though I've pondered it a while back, I've never fully understood the vegetarian or vegan thing from anything but an ethical standpoint. There are extreme cases, sure, where some people can't eat animal products for health reasons, but for the most part, so long as you keep balanced, you're fine.

We tend to have a bit of a pendulous approach to things, I find. When we have a diet rich in meat, and start to feel ill, or are overweight, often our first instinct isn't to cut back, it's to cut out.

I grew up eating terribly. My dad and I would grab fast food maybe two or three times a week. When I hit my teenage years, I became a trash compactor for junk food, and since my dad came from the "eat until you're full" mentality, he unfortunately didn't know to curb it. Mid-way through highschool, I was 250lbs. at 6ft tall, and by college I was 265. Not a huge amount of weight by some standards, but at 27 I'd already been diagnosed with high cholesterol and had knee surgery. Since then, my wife and I have been eachother's motivation, and I've reduced my portion sizes, along with the amount of refined sugars and saturated fats in my diet, as well as eliminated factory farmed meats. Seriously, this is not a hippy thing... there is crap in there that is killing us all slowly, and teaching our bodies to store fat rather than use energy. Good meat is a little more expensive, yes, but we should be eating less of it anyway, and it'll make you feel better. Anyway, after two years of rugby, and now admittedly lighter physical activity than I should be doing, I'm holding at 65lbs down, and no longer on cholesterol meds. Doctor says she's never seen as dramatic a change in levels as with me.

Moral of the story, don't deny yourself good things. Just make sure they're actually good.

As an amusing aside, the biggest guy on my old rugby team was and still is vegan. He's just over 350lbs, and he terrifies the hell out of anyone in his way on the pitch.

There are some MMA fighters that go full on Vegan as well. There is a grain, Quinoa, which is form South America, which is 16% proteins. Wheat has 14%, HOWEVER... yea, quality matters. The wheat proteins lacks in aminos, Quinoa is loaded with them. Your friend might be a big fan of Oats as well. I know a few body builders that made this made made energy bar stuff, it's like a ball, mostly of different grains, honey, and some other stuff rolled into a ball. It's filling, loaded with essentials, and has a heck of a power boost to it.

A lot of the foods we have, yea, ae horrible here in America. When I was in the middle east, the Halaa (Muslim Ritual) way of preparing food is very strict. From the time the animal is slaughtered, or food is prepared, clerics look over the preperation of the food for the masses. This is same with Kosher. They avoid preservatives at all costs. Their food isn't ****ed with or have any strange chemicals included in it. You buy milk in 1L portions since it'll expire in 3 days. America... I got back here, I ate our food for the first time in over 6 months, and literally had stomach pains which were horrible. After a few days of trying to ween myself back into American preservatives, I still had issues. Looking at that list of ingredients and seeing what they are putting in your foods is a must now in this nation. Fast food places are using soy beans to replace meat products. Not entirely, but a mix, since Soy takes on the flavor of what it's mixed with.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Protein intake is important for men though, it can't be overlooked. The amino acids and other small building blocks that repair your body while you're sleeping are critical, or you'd have lactic acid build up from physical labor, which your body goes into a cannabalistic state, takes muscle, turns into the building blocks and fixes itself.

Cool down (walking and/or stretching) is one of the easiest things that people can do (most often do not, which one of the symptoms of not doing that is sour muscles in the morning) to filter out lactic acid.

Build up of lactic acid does not contribute in the tearing down of more muscle in of itself, that's the body trying to can the nutrients to replace what was lost either through poor diet or too much working out. However, while the body is tearing down muscle to replace nutrients, it does release more lactic acid, however, lactic acid is a symptom, not the root cause, which is how I'm taking what you are saying to be.

In mammals, lactic acid is produced either through normal metabolism (which your body goes through no matter the stage of workout (or lack thereof) or through working out, but it doesn't cause the breaking down muscle, that is caused by stress to the muscle (metabolism and/or physical work).

 

[ICeMAnAbk]

I would be careful with this. Typically they add more of something else to make up for the fact that it's "light", "low fat" and/or "no fat"



Another problem and this is mainly seen with the body builders, is using supplements to build body mass. Your body "sees" that it is coming from somewhere else and so it shuts down it's own production. So when you go off of it, it takes your body awhile to adjust and start producing again and depending on your age and genetics it might not be like what it was before taking the supplements.

Ah, with light/no fat stuff, they take the oil out and makes it water based. When you make dressings from scratch, one of the basic building blocks is your oil. The oil is subed with water. This drops the calorie count by 70-80% for your dressing. I've made my own dressings for fun, and the fat free options (or low fat) is typically replace oil with water. Makes it more runny as well.


The body builder stuff, yea, I've seen people take crazy amounts of pills and such. The biggest/leanest guy I know is 43, he's my height, 225lbs, raw. he was Mr. Pennsylvania is like 1995? Id have to ask when, but all he did was lift, lift, lift, sleep and drink whey protein before it became a craze to drink. Still does, and he's huge. The guys i Know who boot creatine or use test boosters, or all these handfuls of pills, don't look nearly as good. I prefer natural train myself. not balooning myself up with creatine water weight which eventually dissapears and u shrink when you stop taking it.

 

[ICeMAnAbk]

Cool down (walking and/or stretching) is one of the easiest things that people can do (most often do not, which one of the symptoms of not doing that is sour muscles in the morning) to filter out lactic acid.

Build up of lactic acid does not contribute in the tearing down of more muscle in of itself, that's the body trying to can the nutrients to replace what was lost either through poor diet or too much working out. However, while the body is tearing down muscle to replace nutrients, it does release more lactic acid, however, lactic acid is a symptom, not the root cause, which is how I'm taking what you are saying to be.

In mammals, lactic acid is produced either through normal metabolism (which your body goes through no matter the stage of workout (or lack thereof) or through working out, but it doesn't cause the breaking down muscle, that is caused by stress to the muscle (metabolism and/or physical work).

No, I see how that was confusing what I wrote.

Aminos, get rid of lactic build up, which is that pain people feel the next day from physical labor.

The cannabalistic state I refer to, is what your body will do in order to flush out the lactic. It needs aminos to get rid of the lactic build up, so your body will pull aminos from your muscles to filter it out if you haven't been eating enough aminos to get rid of the lactic acid you have.

Does this clarify?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

No, I see how that was confusing what I wrote.

Aminos, get rid of lactic build up, which is that pain people feel the next day from physical labor.

The cannabalistic state I refer to, is what your body will do in order to flush out the lactic. It needs aminos to get rid of the lactic build up, so your body will pull aminos from your muscles to filter it out if you haven't been eating enough aminos to get rid of the lactic acid you have.

Does this clarify?

Good to go. It's already been a long Saturday morning for me.

 

[OldPaint]

iceman......i was NOT VEGAN. i was LACTO-OVO VEGETARIAN. big difference in the world of vegetarians
lack of AMINO ACIDS..........only are a concern with VEGAN vegetarian. the amount you need to live only happens is in ANIMAL FOODS. eggs, cheese & milk have all you need daily.
PROTEIN consumption is a myth. people are lead to belive they cant live without massive amounts of it. BULLCRAP. 19 years of living without tons of meat is proof it is a MYTH.
i never felt tired or weak and i was never a small person. when i went lacto ovo, i was 255. within 90 days i was 220-225. which i stayed at till the last couple years when the carbs was packing on the pounds for me.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

PROTEIN consumption is a myth. people are lead to belive they cant live without massive amounts of it. BULLCRAP. 19 years of living without tons of meat is proof it is a MYTH.

You don't need tons of it (or massive amounts of it), I think most people here wouldn't agree with that statement, I know I wouldn't.

However, we do need some.

I also seem to remember you saying that you need to consume certain amounts of fish and chicken now. For whatever reason is irrelevant, the fact is that your body specifically needs that type of consumption now, so that does show that it is needed in certain quantities, for whatever reason. If the diet that you were on was good enough to meet your needs specifically, that shouldn't be the case. If meat in any quantity at all isn't needed in the diet, it isn't needed no matter what the circumstance.

You are going to have a hard time convincing me otherwise especially due to education (one degree is in Equine Nutrition (but there was a lot of compare/contrast between all mammals during the course work and we were required to take human nutrition course work as well)) and balancing feed rations for farms when I was out (just so you wouldn't think I only had theory and not practical application).

"Moderation in everything" is so true when it comes to nutrition, unless there is something genetically wrong then there might be more extreme measures taken. If drinking too much water can kill us then anything in excess can. Just the way it is.

 

[Brad Knight]

Another thing to keep in mind is 'your' goals. Are you trying to trim fat, build mass, build long lean muscle? Are you 'big boned' and put on muscle mass easily? Are you naturally lean who have a really hard time putting on weight? Are you a man, woman?

Regardless - processed foods=bad. Saturated fat=bad. Refined sugars/simple carbs=bad. Chemicals that you can't pronounce=bad. Now, you need some good fats - usually fats from oily plants, omega-3's from fish - are generally good in moderation. Your balance of carbs to protein, your daily caloric intake... that all depends upon the individual.

If you're trying to pack on muscle - you NEED to supply your body with the raw materials to build the muscle. If you want to run a marathon, you need to fuel your body - but not everyone wants to build that kind of muscle mass, and not everyone wants to run a marathon... so it comes down to each individuals body and goals.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Another thing to keep in mind is 'your' goals. Are you trying to trim fat, build mass, build long lean muscle? Are you 'big boned' and put on muscle mass easily? Are you naturally lean who have a really hard time putting on weight? Are you a man, woman?

Pregnant, old, young, high metabolism (or low)? A lot of variables go into that. Sometimes they don't even go hand in hand like you would think that they would.

My sister who is 11 yrs older then I am has an extremely high metabolism. I myself would have thought different. Older you are, the lower the metabolism, but it is all different for different folks.

 

[ICeMAnAbk]

iceman......i was NOT VEGAN. i was LACTO-OVO VEGETARIAN. big difference in the world of vegetarians
lack of AMINO ACIDS..........only are a concern with VEGAN vegetarian. the amount you need to live only happens is in ANIMAL FOODS. eggs, cheese & milk have all you need daily.
PROTEIN consumption is a myth. people are lead to belive they cant live without massive amounts of it. BULLCRAP. 19 years of living without tons of meat is proof it is a MYTH.
i never felt tired or weak and i was never a small person. when i went lacto ovo, i was 255. within 90 days i was 220-225. which i stayed at till the last couple years when the carbs was packing on the pounds for me.

my bad, I just used the term vegan to shorten vegetarian.

The protein intake for myself is needed b/c Im rather big and plan on staying that way. I agree, some people take insane amounts of protein. like 4 shakes a day ontop of a regular diet, some are ingesting like 200-300grams daily. I think of Cartman from Southpark BEEFCAAAAAAAKE! everytime I see one of these guys doing this because it's all just turning into fat. None of them are olympic athletes or require that much protein, maybe not even half of that amount.

Vegetarian/Vegan, all those plant diets, yea, they work well. a few MMA fights use them to tone up before a bout ands go heavy carbs for energy. Im not knocking Vegetarian, or Vegan for that matter, But the simple 3 carbs fats and proteins, you need all three, some not as much, depending on your activity level, and your lifestyle. If you sit a lot, or do a lot of low impact work, probably dont need much at all of protein. I was interested if you did infact eat anything like soy/tofu, bean curds, or a good amount of cheese (Swiss/Feta), orrrrrrr many grains, specifically Oats or Wheats. A friend of mine is a Vegan, he eats a lot of bean type things, hummas being one of his favorite (I think that counts as a bean).

19yrs without meat, def quite a challenge. I dont think I could go a week. A few of the other countries I've been to, meat portions are very small, most of them tend ot just eat small amounts of chicken or fish, mostly veggies, rice, beans, etc. Mainly b/c it's more expensive. I garentee you probably saved a bundle doing the vegetarian diet.

 

[john1]

I don't know a damn thing about all this yick yack but these 94/7 lean hamburgers i am eating off the forman taste pretty good lol