New Product Epson 60600 vs Summa DC5

[MJDallas]

Hi, I know these are two completely different machines....
We are in the market for a printer, instead of outsourcing since our business has been growing lately. We initially started as a safety decal company, but have wanted to expand to doing a lot more for our customers since the requests have been coming in.

Since we were initially looking at safety decals, we wanted to go with a Summa DC5, as it prints/cuts, but we still. have to laminate it or find thicker media to print on. Customers don't like what samples we have been providing (the ControlTac media has been too thin- can't remember which one, but I know it is 2mm).

Grimco told me about an Epson 60600 they have on special that looks good, but I am concerned about the print quality based on the sample I just received at 16 passes.

Below, I laid the Summa decal (darker blue) on top of the Epson print sample. I did not send the correct color to Grimco when printing the sample and only used the Summa color pallet- so I get there was going to be a color difference. The Summa looks for a certain color to tell it what ribbon to use. What concerns me is the solid blocks of blue from the Epson do not look good (where the arrows are).

My question is... Is this normal of the Epson printers to print such a dithered look? Is that even the right term?? Most of our work is solid colors, so that has to be spot on.

I also noticed that the sample they printed was at 16 passes. Can I get similar quality at less passes? This is not fine art, they are decals, but they cannot have banding either.

Suma Banding issue:

I LOVE the color of the Summa, but I don't like the high cost per print. Ignore the tear. I was seeing how tear resistant the media was.

Epson printing the correct blue in a different area. This blue is MUCH better. But again, at 16 passes, which worries me.

Recap questions:

1. Can I get similar quality (in terms of no banding and darkness of print) with less passes?
2. What is the cost difference (I hear .24 cents per sq ft of ink- but at how many passes?) between different pass settings?
3. Are there different factors that play into the ink costs anywhere in the machine? I can't imagine so... I figure it is all down to how many passes you lay.
4. Any ideas on the "dithering"?

5. For outdoor decals (primary business), would you go with the Epson 60600 and laminate or the Summa DC5 (and probably still laminate). Decals need to last 3 years.

Also, before anyone says anything, we do have someone full time that can maintain the machine. I understand it is a lot of work to maintain the solvent printers. Finally, we are outsourcing to a large company that could not care less about our business- not a local shop, so this is helping us move on our own.
Thanks!
FFNG (Fairly FNG) Mike

 

[equippaint]

With the summa you are laying down an absolute color, no doubt about what it is and it is going to be solid like paint as opposed to 4 color composition with different ink densities. The summas have some banding from everything I have read but no actual experience with the machine. I don't think a lot of people laminate thermal prints either.
Honestly, you are being too particular. These things aren't photo printers. Since you are doing safety decals, why in the world would you use controltac? That 1203 label you can buy a pack of 10 for less than you can print 1 for on either of these printers.

 

[MJDallas]

With the summa you are laying down an absolute color, no doubt about what it is and it is going to be solid like paint as opposed to 4 color composition with different ink densities. The summas have some banding from everything I have read but no actual experience with the machine. I don't think a lot of people laminate thermal prints either.
Honestly, you are being too particular. These things aren't photo printers. Since you are doing safety decals, why in the world would you use controltac? That 1203 label you can buy a pack of 10 for less than you can print 1 for on either of these printers.

Hi controltac because customers complain that they waste a bunch of them due to having to apply the decals in windy conditions, which causes them to stick prematurely or fold onto themselves. If you have a better idea, I certainly want to hear it. They are also asking for application tape on all decals.

 

[equippaint]

1/2 of our decal revenue is selling rta safety decals and have never encountered this as long as we have been doing it. I would never premask these if someone asked, its an extra step with time and extra materials that you have to recoup. The only thing I can suggest is to teach your customers how to properly apply decals and they wont have these problems.
We apply large permanent decals all the time outside in the wind, its rare that we use any repositionable material. If its that bad just apply it wet.

 

[MJDallas]

1/2 of our decal revenue is selling rta safety decals and have never encountered this as long as we have been doing it. I would never premask these if someone asked, its an extra step with time and extra materials that you have to recoup. The only thing I can suggest is to teach your customers how to properly apply decals and they wont have these problems.
We apply large permanent decals all the time outside in the wind, its rare that we use any repositionable material. If its that bad just apply it wet.

Hi, you would never pre mask unless someone asked or period? Sorry, trying to clarify. I get that if you do, it would be an up charge.

Do you screenprint all of your safety decals?

 

[Bly]

16 pass on a 60600 is ridiculous.
6 pass is fine for most work - 8 is near photo quality.
That grain in the blue isn't something we see on ours.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

We've never printed over 8 pass on our 80600 either. Makes no sense. From 2 feet away you can't tell the difference and it takes longer to print for no positive result.
All jobs are 6 or 8 pass with zero banding.

 

[jfiscus]

I'm betting that the people at your local dealership aren't too familiar with running the printers, as it appears they are having issues with profiles. We have two Edge machines here that run every day, but there is no way we would ever consider getting a wide format thermal printer these days, a solvent printer is just as capable and WAY cheaper/faster. Do not be afraid of maintenance on one either, our 60600 has virtually no maintenance after 6 months of use. Just a few quick swabs around the heads every now and then and empty the waste container when needed.

Yes, you can 100% get solid dark, deep, consistent colors out of an Epson; you just have to choose the correct color. We printed our own Pantone charts out of our machine so we know what color to grab in the file so that it prints the correct color. If you want deeper/darker colors your RIP (you will need a rip with an Epson) will allow you to add more ink density. The graininess is also something that we don't see here. using cheaper medias will cause a bit of grain to appear, but we primarily use 3M products here and do not have an issue with this. You can laminate and cut printed decals the same day on a 60600. We normally run 4 or 6 passes on our 60600.

Everything printed gets laminated, or at least it should. Having the cutter on the printer is ridiculous to me since you've got to remove the vinyl to laminate it. Putting it back in there to be cut is just tying up the printer from printing more decals when both machines could be working at the same time. If it is a larger decal, then it should also be masked.

 

[equippaint]

Try a thicker calandared material with a matching laminate for your warning decals like IJ35. It will make them more rigid and you should have less complaints. We use Oracal 3165gra with 215 laminate.
As jfiscus said, the dc5 is nice for some things but it will be more expensive and slower than other options. I personally prefer a print and cut machine as there are things we don't laminate. If demand increased enough I'd buy a second cjv150 before another dedicated plotter. Then keep 30" material in one, 54 in the other and use whichever one was open at the time to cut.

 

[unclebun]

I used to run a Summa DC3 back when they were brand new. I would recommend getting the Epson. I use one now (after several years of using a Mimaki). The print quality issues you are seeing are from incorrect profiles in the RIP and the printer. Maintenance on the Epson is really minimal and easy. Ink cost is less than the ribbon cost on a Summa.

 

[ProPDF]

PROFILE PROFILE PROFILE the S60600 and THEN make your judgement. The guys running the Epson printer are not using the correct profile and or settings. Only you and your clients can judge if a printer output fits your needs not anyone here. It's impossible when the printer operator doesn't know what they are doing though. I suggest going to an Epson facility if you can and see what you can come up with after you ping some dealers who know what they are doing when it comes to getting print samples. With all due respect changing media types/thickness or RGB color codes is the lazy ass backwards approach to correct color.

 

[CanuckSigns]

We also run a fair amount of safety signage and pipe markers, we used to run pipe markers on our Gerber edge due to our roland producing prints similar to your photos, once we got our S80600 we switched all pipe markers over to it, we print on General Formulations High-Tac vinyl and laminate with a matte laminate, put them side by side against a coloured vinyl and you couldn't tell the difference from 6 inches away.

The Epson has the best solid colours I have ever seen, whoever did those sample prints had no idea what they were doing, you should be able to run these at 6 pass and have them come out perfect.

 

[MJDallas]

We also run a fair amount of safety signage and pipe markers, we used to run pipe markers on our Gerber edge due to our roland producing prints similar to your photos, once we got our S80600 we switched all pipe markers over to it, we print on General Formulations High-Tac vinyl and laminate with a matte laminate, put them side by side against a coloured vinyl and you couldn't tell the difference from 6 inches away.

The Epson has the best solid colours I have ever seen, whoever did those sample prints had no idea what they were doing, you should be able to run these at 6 pass and have them come out perfect.

Everyone, thank you so much. I think going with the Epson is the way to go. It gives us a bunch more flexibility. I can't say we won't get the Summa DC5 one day, but right now, the Epson fits a lot more of what we want to do. We are also getting a Summa plotter, so our rep should be happy as well.

 

[jfiscus]

What Summa plotter? I have heard great things about them in the past from others on here, but we REALLY hate ours here. It always jams up and ruins materials, ever since it was new.
We only cut solid color vinyl with ours now and use Mimaki plotters (CG-160FX) for cutting our prints.

 

[Tatonka]

We've been using S2T75's for a year or so now and haven't really had any issues at all. I did add a swab with a microfiber cloth wrapped around it to the side of the head, that helps keep material down below the knife blade so it doesn't get scratched.

 

[MJDallas]

What Summa plotter? I have heard great things about them in the past from others on here, but we REALLY hate ours here. It always jams up and ruins materials, ever since it was new.
We only cut solid color vinyl with ours now and use Mimaki plotters (CG-160FX) for cutting our prints.

Hi, we bought the S2T160