getting "snowy" on the Edge

[tamiya]

Greetings All!

i have access to one of these great inventions and it works well;
it does low volumes of mono/greyscale spot print onto clear.

however when i tried putting in CMYK ribbons to do some fancier work
the middle 1/3rd of the page is not fully transferring (like "snow" on TV).
The right & left 1/3rds come out great.

Problem is worse when backed with white = total 5 layers.
Have tried white from other foil brand and its just the same too.
Nowhere as bad when backed with silver instead.

this is the setup:-
vintage ancient Edge
Flexi
foils by Signfoils+ & Caxton
Oracal 751C premium cast (55 micron)

Sign of head getting tired? (no lazy pixels)

Would turning up the Heat or Pressure bandaid the problem?

Your thoughts appreciated, thanks in advance.

 

[Fred Weiss]

You can quickly determine if you have equipment, materials or settings problems by running a 50% block about 11" square of a heavy pigment foil such as Gerber Spot Cobalt Blue.

What you describe sounds like either materials or settings. So my question is have you been able to get a satisfactory print using your CMYK foils on any other vinyl?

Are your materials old or reasonably fresh?

Are you assigning halftones and output profiles or are you accepting defaults and hoping for the best?

What version of Flexi are you using? their ability to drive an Edge didn't really get good until somewhere around version 7.5.

 

[tamiya]

Hi Fred, appreciate the reply!

Materials are all fresh, bought them myself so i can muck about afterhours.

Flexi is a fairly latemodel i believe ... usually runs their plotter but
found its got the setup file for Gerber Edge & was amazed it did the job.
(Nobody can find the discs & dongle for the Gerber package)

Recently tried some Oracal 651 cal in white... which is thicker (70mi+?).
CMYK came out better, less snowy in the middle but then
it didn't have the white backing print layer either.


A single colour print eg silver or spot black usually comes up nicely
as long as there's no backing of white behind it first.


Last 24hrs i've been experimenting without PC, just using Test Patterns.
Laid down a chequerboard of white & tried overprinting with other colours,
seems to be an aversion to sticking onto the white.

Machine seems to default to "Firings 6" and "Pressure 1150" after Flexi prints.

Tried increasing Firings to 7 & 8 but it started tearing the foil.

Increasing Pressure in steps all the way up to 1400 max didn't improve much
on the testprinting; CMYK via Flexi defaults it to 6 & 1150 so no change.


re: assigning halftones and output profiles - yep running on defaults & prayer;
currently investing some time brushing up on Flexi's manual... good cure for insomnia.

Someone mentioned Flexi might not allow as fine a control as Gerber Omega?


thanks again

 

[Fred Weiss]

I've been running an Edge since 1998. I have two seats of Omega 2.1 and one of FlexiSign Pro 7.6.2. I use Omega for 99.999% of my jobs because it is made for running an Edge. Flexi works if you have at least version 7.5. Earlier versions of Flexi had immature attempts to run the Edge. To determine what version you have, click on the Help menu and then click on About. The version number will be displayed.

• My first advice to you is to find the Gerber dongle. Find out what version you have and then consider upgrading it to the current version 2.6.
• Next get up to speed on what you have.
• Third, consider that almost anyone with an Edge uses Omega to setup their jobs and output to the Edge. If you want to cut months off of the learning curve, use what most people use.
• Fourth, order in some Gerber foils and vinyl and use it for a while. In this way you will have a standard of comparison if you then want to use third party foils, vinyl and software.

In your descriptions of your various attempts to output to the Edge, it sounds like you are just guessing at how to setup a job. I will tell you first of all that at least 95% of the work we print is printed on white vinyl. The only time we use white foil is when we are printing on clear. We print on colored vinyls occasionally but almost invariably it is with a spot color that is either black or darker and complimentary in color.

The short of it is this ... and while blunt, I mean no rudeness:

You have an old Edge and some dubious materials with which you propose to print and cut jobs using software which may not be up to the task. In addition, you have no training or the input of anyone that has successfully printed using your approach and array of materials and software. The mixed results you are getting was highly predictable.

The learning curve is steep for color printing, especially for a system as versatile as the Edge. I would estimate my own curve length at about a year and I was already familiar with the Gerber software, cutting vinyl and screen printing. You can get a lot of help from myself and others on this board to cut that down to a few weeks but you first need to invest a little bit in your setup by getting Omega software and some proven to be good materials.

 

[tamiya]

Hi Fred, thanks again for the prompt reply. Agree with all you've said 110%!

This particular machine is effectively decommissioned from commercial life
hence just "self-edumacation" ... currently enjoying some personal time here.



going slightly off topic...

Have been getting a rather disinterested response from local Spandex team.
Contacted them back in March with interest perhaps buying a whole new FX,
but no reply back since from any of their account managers for my area.

Response from my usual (vinyl) suppliers have been far more enthusiastic
hence the choice to go thirdparty for my recent fresh supplies of foils.
Rather give my $$ to the ppl who act happy to receive it.

(same deterrent now to buying an new FX and getting locked into Gerber-only supplies. if their sales team are so passive, how worse can their aftersales service be?)



Will see if i can pull some favours to try my current materials & CMYK settings
on a different machine... to see if indeed the printhead is getting tired.

 

[CBurr]

I don't know anything about flexi , but I think that reflective vinyl has the highest pressure (1350) for gerber software.

You can also change the pressure cal to 100 (range is -100 to +100) you'll have to push the vinyl slew button 100 times. This will not reset with the jobs and increases the head up down motor an extra number of steps therefore increasing the head pressure on the vinyl.

I think that once you print a halftone fill you'll see the two or more distinct light printing areas in the middle of the vinyl (tire tracks).

If you have the second model edge (trunion) that has the cooling fans it has a pressure adjusting screw (keypad side about halfway up) that can be turned to increase the pressure on the printhead. If you have the first model it is possible to add more pressure but it's not easy to do or explain (requires removing the head assembly and playing with the springs and spacers behind it).

 

[CBurr]

Also I think you can run plotspooler with out the dongle. So if you can get someone to create the test job and save it as 4.3 version(Not sure if this is still available to do) you should be able to print the job.

I also think you can use msdos to <splprint filename lpt1>. (not really sure of the command line but have seen it done).

 

[_SAi_]

Hi,

Not sure if this will help your "snow" problem, but it is a good idea to keep the print head clean. I used to dust off the print head before every job and also at times use isopropyl alcohol (99%) and one of Gerber's fancy head cleaning cloths to keep dust and that waxy buildup that occurs from the foil backings. You might also want to give the print area of the vinyl a good cleaning with the alcohol too.

I have found some vinyls come with a pitted surface that runs along the length of it by a couple of inches. These flaws can produce a similar output to what you described.

 

[tamiya]

Hi folks, appreciate all your replies.

Yes the printhead is clean.
I clean it regularly using IPA & IPA sachets.

Vinyl is usually clean, occasionally it picks up fluff (i slew it thru once)
which is cleaned off before printing with vinyl lube & lintfree cloth.


Machine is spotless... literally!

Late last Friday was brushing out the fan slots, opening the odd panel...
one thing led to another, before you'd know it, whole machine in pieces.

Removed anything that looked removable, vacuumed up all dust bunnies,
removed & cleaned the PCBs and plugs with electrical contact cleaner etc.
Brushed out the power supply unit, scraped out the cooling fan.
Even gave the body panels a quick scrub in the bath, 2 shades whiter now.

Reassembled by Sunday, flicked the switch... *PEEP!* purrrrp!

Well it still works... prints EXACTLY like before.

 

[tamiya]

I don't know anything about flexi , but I think that reflective vinyl has the highest pressure (1350) for gerber software.

i did experiment with 1 printjob telling Flexi its Gerber Reflective substrate
but output was just the same.

You can also change the pressure cal to 100 (range is -100 to +100) you'll have to push the vinyl slew button 100 times. This will not reset with the jobs and increases the head up down motor an extra number of steps therefore increasing the head pressure on the vinyl.

yeah i came across that in the machine menu... pressed the key
200+ times to find the full range hehehe.

i did try one test printing at +10 & -10 i think... no change either way.

Might go try it at a higher setting.


Have cleaned the motor, belt & cam plus waxed it when reassembling.
Runs up/down smoothly with no jams/jerks in operation.

I think that once you print a halftone fill you'll see the two or more distinct light printing areas in the middle of the vinyl (tire tracks).

its lighter printing about 6-8cm width right down the middle.

If you have the second model edge (trunion) that has the cooling fans it has a pressure adjusting screw (keypad side about halfway up) that can be turned to increase the pressure on the printhead. If you have the first model it is possible to add more pressure but it's not easy to do or explain (requires removing the head assembly and playing with the springs and spacers behind it).

Its the original 1994 model I believe, no trunnion fan on top.
Plastic panels had a 'SEP 1993' stamp.


What happens if i undo the big locknut on top, will the head fall out?

Only thing that stopped me from undoing it was i didn't have big spanner.
(some lowlife broke into my garage earlier this yr & stole all my tools!)


Be interested to know if the edges of the printhead gets more pressure
from the springs than the middle bit.

Or if the platen roller has 'shrunk' hourglass-shaped in its middle;
i darned forgot to get the callipers out to measure it.


Any further tips on mucking with the springs/spacers would be appreciated.
Can't think of anything else more exciting to do this weekend... might go find a big spanner.

 

[CBurr]

Definately not a trunion if you have the nut.

A two to three inch wide band of poor print suggests that the printline is not correct.


If your going to tear it apart I highly recommend trying to get the service manual for the classic edge.

 

[tamiya]

Would love to find a Service Manual... anyone got one they care to share or sell?

 

[CBurr]

Since curiosity killed the cat I figured I'd tell you how to tear apart and put back together the machine. I'm fairly certain I covered it all.
If you have nothing to lose on the machine it's worth a shot.

You'll need some tools,
Plastic shims up to about .020 inches cut into 1 inch squares (3 of each)
a 5 inch pound torque wrench with a 3 mm allen bit (THIS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO WARP THE PRINTHEAD).
a 1.5 mm "L" shaped allen wrench
a 17 mm wrench
a 3 mm allen wrench
silicone heat sink compound
moly grease
phillips screw driver

First turn off the machine
remove the black handle
remove the top cove (4 screws on the hinge)
open the top half of machine

remove the foil squeegee (1,5 mm) loosen the screws and it should slide out
Mark where the lower silver roller bar bracket is( it needs to be put back on straight to prevent foil wrinkling)
remove the 4 screws (1.5 mm) holding the lower silver bar on.

now you'll see the three connectors that attach to the printhead.

in between the gray and black wires is a locking tab for the connectors.
release the locking tab and pull the connector down on a corner so it will come off. Bend the wries down so it won't be in the way for reassembly.

remove the middle connector

close the machine

remove the nut on top (17 mm)

Now the tricky part.
Grab the printmount slowly open the machine and remove the print mount trying to keep the mount low so if you drop it it only falls a short distance and lands on the rubber roller.

Now you'll see the 4 springs remove them and keep them in order for reinstall

now look in the holes where the springs were and look for washers and metal shims. set those aside in order for reinstall

The printhead is attached with 6 (3mm) screws remove them and remove the printhead from the mount.

You machine may have metal shims installed behind the printhead and print mount and on the top leading edge of the printhead.

Remove the one on the top leading edge.

clean the old grease off the printmount and printhead

apply new silicone grease to print mount

loosely install the screws into the printhead (almost snug but loose enough to move printhead around)

now you'll need to pick up the mount and squeeze the print head agains the leading edge and make it flush to the edge on the side that would be toward the keypad.

tourque the 6 screws to 5 inch pounds in a random order.

put the head on the black roller reinstall washers and springs.

apply a light coat of moly grease to both pins.

make sure the nut and 1.5 mm allen wrench are within easy reach.

slowly lower the top of machine, line up the pins to the bushings.

Give the mount a slight curl and the top should go down fully easily.

Now you need to ensure that the springs move freely,

lift the top just enough to get the "L" part of the allen wrench in to where the springs are and wiggle them up and down (they should move freely) if they dont move use the allen wrench to put them into place)

once all springs are free push the mount fully in and put the nut on.

reconnect the three connectors.

turn the machine on
turn the cover sensor off
send the halftone print test
check out put quality. if bad turn machine off

remove the printmount again but do not take the printhead off of the mount.

loosen the 6 screws that hold the printhead in.

So with the mount sitting on the table in the same oreintation as if it were in the machine with the cover open, you need to move the printhead down to get a gap between the head and the leading edge of the print mount.

take the plastic shims (I normally use .005") and insert them .

push the printhead tight against them, and flush to the edge and torque the screws.

reinstall the mount and print the test again.

if the print is bad pull the mount back out and increase the shim by .005.

repeat until you get the best print you can get.

if you get an even print but light you can add washers(M4) to increase the head pressure but I would not go above 2 washers per hole.

Another thing that happened with the old edges is that the printmounts were modified. .010 of an inch was milled off of the prinmount leading edge to give you a better chance of getting a good print. If your machine has a -.010 inscribed on the back of the printmount you should be okay).
If not you may need to have it machined.

The object of shiming the printhead with the plastic shims is that you are moving the print line into different positions with respect to the rubber roller trying to find the optimum spot. (The plastic shims do not go behind the printhead which would increase pressure).

It may be easiest to use non edge ready reflective vinyl or 2 mil label stock with black foil to judge how good the print quality is.


Once you get proficient at this you may want to see about putting a new head into your machine.

 

[tamiya]

a huge Thanks CB!! appreciate your taking the time to type it all out

I'm gunna go print it out and reread it a few times to digest it properly.

If you have nothing to lose on the machine it's worth a shot.

ahh, big hunk of steel owes me a heap ... that just makes it more "exciting" haha

(bit like the "gambler's rush" :Big Laugh )

Now the tricky part.
Grab the printmount slowly open the machine and remove the print mount trying to keep the mount low so if you drop it it only falls a short distance and lands on the rubber roller.

how about i just put a foil cart in there, to keep it falling out?

The object of shiming the printhead with the plastic shims is that you are moving the print line into different positions with respect to the rubber roller trying to find the optimum spot. (The plastic shims do not go behind the printhead which would increase pressure).

AHH! i get it now...
we're trying to move the printing spot to the apex of the platen roller!


The plastic shims... is it a Gerber kit or did you DIY?

Does the plastic need to tolerate much heat?

(I dabble in model fabrication hobby so got plenty of various offcuts.)


Thanks so much again.

 

[CBurr]

The shims are removed after the printhead is torqued, so doesn't need to be plastic. You just need to use the same thickness shim on both ends so that the printhead is square to the vinyl.

 

[tamiya]

thanks again Carl (doing a 2+2... "Carl Burr" ?)

aha, must make mental note to *remove* the shims

otherwise i'll have some Mudflaps mini squeegees to go with the tyre tracks!


cheers,
wills