HELP! COLOR SHIFTING PROBLEM WITH LATEX PRINTER......

[Graphics@ToysForTrucks]

Equipment, material, Software used.
HP LATEX 365
HP INKS
IJ180-CV3
8518 OVER LAMINATE
SEAL 62 PRO S LAMINATOR (HEATED LAMINATION)
Flexi Production Manager

The color shift is so concerning, my immediate thought it was switching rolls in between prints, printed all I could on the roll I had open and the rest on the new roll, same with the laminate, switched once we ran out, BUT then realized maybe not, because there is color shifting on the same roll, same laminate.

same color profile on all prints they were all send to production manager at the same time, only ripped one at the time when I was ready to send to printer.

could it be production manager?
inks?
printer?

I'm so lost and kind of sick to my stomach!

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[dypinc]

Was your media preset set to use CMYK or CMYKcm?

Are the grays K only output or CMYK output?

Was ever other panel rotated so the both left or both right side are matching at the seam?

 

[EffectiveCause]

Did you separate tiles in the rip or did you separate them before you brought them into the rip software? Sometimes separating them before bringing them into the rip can cause it to rip the colors at slightly different values even though they were created with the same values. Especially if that panel was a different size from the others.

 

[dypinc]

Now what RIP would do that? Do the output values actually show different?

 

[signman315]

I love latex printers but this is their biggest weakness....They use heat to cure the ink which is very sensitive to environmental changes, temperature, moisture, print speed, and so on. And because the printer runs over a period of time the latent heat at the beginning of a run is cooler than after is has been printing for awhile. I used to use an HP L28500 and it was way worse then the latest series of HP latex printers. My old one didn't use optimizer or have an on board profiling system, HP added those features to alleviate the issues you are having. So the solution sounds complicated but in practice it's very easy.

1. Print your panels in installation order...i.e. print panel 1, then panel 2, then panel 3, and so on. This minimizes the color shift as the printer heats/cools throughout the run. Any color variation is hidden because the panels that need to match were printed next to each other.
2. Rotate every other panel by 180 degrees. That way the left side of say Panel 1 prints on the same side of the printer as the right side of Panel 2. This helps minimize color shifts because as the printer begins each pass either left or right it takes a split second to be jetting the inks properly...so the left/right edges might have a color shift before the jets are firing properly. Also in a latex sometimes the heating elements are a little hotter/cooler on the left/right of the machine, this is more common the older the heating element gets and wears out. But rotating every other panel allows the right side of one panel to be on the same side of the printer as the left side of the next panel...reducing any color shift.
3. Lastly add a small printing gutter to each side of the prints. It's an option in your RIP software. This prints pure inks (CMYKLcLm or whatever your inkset is) in small strips along the edges of the roll. Again because the latex gets so hot and is so sensitive to environmental conditions that if you are running a print that is using heavy amounts of say Cyan but not much Magenta, then over the course of the print run the Magenta head is exposed to a lot of heat while not firing a lot of ink. Then when it comes to a point in the print job where it needs to fire the Magenta the heads take a bit to recover and fire the jets fully. But if you have the printing gutters then the heads a kept "fresh" and constantly supplied with ink and not drying up with the heat.

It sounds tricky but it's simply a matter of printing in order, rotating every other print 180 degrees, and clicking a check box in the RIP for the gutters. This will minimize any color shifts, and honestly I do these on all of my paneled print jobs regardless of the printer technology it's just a good practice and yields the best results reliably.

 

[Graphics@ToysForTrucks]

Was your media preset set to use CMYK or CMYKcm?

Are the grays K only output or CMYK output?

Was ever other panel rotated so the both left or both right side are matching at the seam?

Here is a screen shot of the prints presets.

 

[EffectiveCause]

Now what RIP would do that? Do the output values actually show different?

I've seen it happen in Onyx several times. And yes they actually show different values.

 

[Graphics@ToysForTrucks]

Now what RIP would do that? Do the output values actually show different?

im using Flexi production manager.

 

[signman315]

Did you separate tiles in the rip or did you separate them before you brought them into the rip software? Sometimes separating them before bringing them into the rip can cause it to rip the colors at slightly different values even though they were created with the same values. Especially if that panel was a different size from the others.

In ONYX RIP there is a "sample point" option under the color correction tab. It's kind of like the eye dropper in Adobe software. You can use that tool to hover over any color and see the ink values, use that to see if they are the same ink values from file to file.

 

[Graphics@ToysForTrucks]

Did you separate tiles in the rip or did you separate them before you brought them into the rip software? Sometimes separating them before bringing them into the rip can cause it to rip the colors at slightly different values even though they were created with the same values. Especially if that panel was a different size from the others.

I like to use the natural seams of the trailer, so i separated the panels prior to sending them to the rip rather than using the RIP's tiling system.

hmmmm i wondered if that is what happened.

 

[Santimus]

Was ever other panel rotated so the both left or both right side are matching at the seam?

1. Print your panels in installation order...i.e. print panel 1, then panel 2, then panel 3, and so on. This minimizes the color shift as the printer heats/cools throughout the run. Any color variation is hidden because the panels that need to match were printed next to each other.
2. Rotate every other panel by 180 degrees. That way the left side of say Panel 1 prints on the same side of the printer as the right side of Panel 2. This helps minimize color shifts because as the printer begins each pass either left or right it takes a split second to be jetting the inks properly...so the left/right edges might have a color shift before the jets are firing properly. Also in a latex sometimes the heating elements are a little hotter/cooler on the left/right of the machine, this is more common the older the heating element gets and wears out. But rotating every other panel allows the right side of one panel to be on the same side of the printer as the left side of the next panel...reducing any color shift.
3. Lastly add a small printing gutter to each side of the prints. It's an option in your RIP software. This prints pure inks (CMYKLcLm or whatever your inkset is) in small strips along the edges of the roll. Again because the latex gets so hot and is so sensitive to environmental conditions that if you are running a print that is using heavy amounts of say Cyan but not much Magenta, then over the course of the print run the Magenta head is exposed to a lot of heat while not firing a lot of ink. Then when it comes to a point in the print job where it needs to fire the Magenta the heads take a bit to recover and fire the jets fully. But if you have the printing gutters then the heads a kept "fresh" and constantly supplied with ink and not drying up with the heat.

Both of these.

Also, the life of the printhead (if it's anything like my latex 360) plays a big part in it. We just ran an entire 60" roll printing a lot of blues earlier this week and had very little color shift because I replaced the printheads before running it. The old ones were both at around 9,000 ml.

 

[EffectiveCause]

I like to use the natural seams of the trailer, so i separated the panels prior to sending them to the rip rather than using the RIP's tiling system.

hmmmm i wondered if that is what happened.

I don't know about in Flexi but in Onyx you can cutomize the width of each tile to be different. I would think you should have that ability in Flexi.

 

[Graphics@ToysForTrucks]

I love latex printers but this is their biggest weakness....They use heat to cure the ink which is very sensitive to environmental changes, temperature, moisture, print speed, and so on. And because the printer runs over a period of time the latent heat at the beginning of a run is cooler than after is has been printing for awhile. I used to use an HP L28500 and it was way worse then the latest series of HP latex printers. My old one didn't use optimizer or have an on board profiling system, HP added those features to alleviate the issues you are having. So the solution sounds complicated but in practice it's very easy.

1. Print your panels in installation order...i.e. print panel 1, then panel 2, then panel 3, and so on. This minimizes the color shift as the printer heats/cools throughout the run. Any color variation is hidden because the panels that need to match were printed next to each other.
2. Rotate every other panel by 180 degrees. That way the left side of say Panel 1 prints on the same side of the printer as the right side of Panel 2. This helps minimize color shifts because as the printer begins each pass either left or right it takes a split second to be jetting the inks properly...so the left/right edges might have a color shift before the jets are firing properly. Also in a latex sometimes the heating elements are a little hotter/cooler on the left/right of the machine, this is more common the older the heating element gets and wears out. But rotating every other panel allows the right side of one panel to be on the same side of the printer as the left side of the next panel...reducing any color shift.
3. Lastly add a small printing gutter to each side of the prints. It's an option in your RIP software. This prints pure inks (CMYKLcLm or whatever your inkset is) in small strips along the edges of the roll. Again because the latex gets so hot and is so sensitive to environmental conditions that if you are running a print that is using heavy amounts of say Cyan but not much Magenta, then over the course of the print run the Magenta head is exposed to a lot of heat while not firing a lot of ink. Then when it comes to a point in the print job where it needs to fire the Magenta the heads take a bit to recover and fire the jets fully. But if you have the printing gutters then the heads a kept "fresh" and constantly supplied with ink and not drying up with the heat.

It sounds tricky but it's simply a matter of printing in order, rotating every other print 180 degrees, and clicking a check box in the RIP for the gutters. This will minimize any color shifts, and honestly I do these on all of my paneled print jobs regardless of the printer technology it's just a good practice and yields the best results reliably.

Thanks a bunch!!!!! I will have to try this!

 

[signman315]

Both of these.

Also, the life of the printhead (if it's anything like my latex 360) plays a big part in it. We just ran an entire 60" roll printing a lot of blues earlier this week and had very little color shift because I replaced the printheads before running it. The old ones were both at around 9,000 ml.

Good call Aegissol! The life of the printhead is huge consideration. Your test prints could show no issues and you could still have a head that isn't fully firing....check the use percentages of your heads. I've regularly pushed them to 200% without issues but any head over 150% can't be trusted to give consistent color over large runs.

 

[Graphics@ToysForTrucks]

I don't know about in Flexi but in Onyx you can cutomize the width of each tile to be different. I would think you should have that ability in Flexi.

it does!! but every time I move a tile all my other ones more, and is quite a battle to fight.... maybe there is a trick I dont know of!

 

[Graphics@ToysForTrucks]

Good call Aegissol! The life of the printhead is huge consideration. Your test prints could show no issues and you could still have a head that isn't fully firing....check the use percentages of your heads. I've regularly pushed them to 200% without issues but any head over 150% can't be trusted to give consistent color over large runs.

I will check them!

 

[AKwrapguy]

Equipment, material, Software used.
HP LATEX 365
HP INKS
IJ180-CV3
8518 OVER LAMINATE
SEAL 62 PRO S LAMINATOR (HEATED LAMINATION)
Flexi Production Manager

The color shift is so concerning, my immediate thought it was switching rolls in between prints, printed all I could on the roll I had open and the rest on the new roll, same with the laminate, switched once we ran out, BUT then realized maybe not, because there is color shifting on the same roll, same laminate.

same color profile on all prints they were all send to production manager at the same time, only ripped one at the time when I was ready to send to printer.

could it be production manager?
inks?
printer?

I'm so lost and kind of sick to my stomach!

Anyone have any thoughts?

When was the last time you did a head alignment or color correction? When was the last time you changed your heads? How much ink have you put through them?

 

[Graphics@ToysForTrucks]

I will check them!

one of my Y/M print head was just little over 4000 ml fired, all others were around 1100-1600 mark.

 

[ColorCrest]

Kudos to both signman315 and Aegissol. Therein should be your solutions. (Use all of them given.) Your design at that size is a real stress test for most any printer but now you have some expert advise for next time.

 

[Graphics@ToysForTrucks]

When was the last time you did a head alignment or color correction? When was the last time you changed your heads? How much ink have you put through them?

color correction probably little over a month, print heads all have between 1100-1600 ml of ink fired, expect for one Y/M has little over 4000.