How Important are the specs of the PC?

[ikarasu]

I'm quite familiar on multi-core programming, having done it ~15 years ago during my degree.
My question to ikarasu was to determine whether we had an issue with our install not.

Even though we all veered offtopic to ram... I remembered to test! It looks like Onyx now is true multi core, not just when you open multiple files.

This is opening 1 file, all 4 of the cores are used. Not all at 100% the whole time... but you can see its generally using all 4 cores, making it 3-4 times faster than a single core. There are diminishing returns... So while an 8 core might sound faster than a 4 core would... it's not always the case. The clock speed plays a big roll too.As does bus speed, etc. As much as I love AMD, a 4 Core Intel can outperform an 8 core AMD in most benchmarks. So just know, the higher core amount doesn't always = faster.

[Edit] And I was doing other stuff while resource monitor was opened in the beginning. The big 100% is when I first opened the onyx file. So ignore everything before that... they all started at around 100%, and slowly tappered off once it was finished rendering.

 

[Sandman]

Your right, I worked at a company that built airplane parts and the designers that used CAD programs had special video cards that were meant for CAD programs and didn't preform well with games. (As so I've been told... I never got into gaming, had no time to... used my spare time to build a sign company to get OUT of the IT field, lol) I hated dealing with people and their computer problems. The "users" like management and office staff were completely dumb, then you had "Power Users / Techies" that THOUGHT they knew everything I knew and used "tech" words (incorrectly) to sound smart..those people annoyed me the most... And all of them always thought all I had to do was "click a button" and it was fixed. Well, yea you need to click a button on a computer to fix stuff. Then I'd get the complaints about, why are you charging me $300 to click a setting that took two seconds? Well, I'm not charging $300 to click a setting, I'm charging $300 for the 3 hours I spent finding the setting you ****ed up! Can you tell I have some pent up anger from my past career? Lol

Even if you didn't spend 3 hours finding the setting they messed up (you did mean messed up right LOL) the $300 was for KNOWING where to find the setting. That comes with training and education and last time I looked we haven't reached the point of plugging our brain into the Matrix to instantly learn how do do stuff.

 

[ikarasu]

Even if you didn't spend 3 hours finding the setting they messed up (you did mean messed up right LOL) the $300 was for KNOWING where to find the setting. That comes with training and education and last time I looked we haven't reached the point of plugging our brain into the Matrix to instantly learn how do do stuff.

The $300 is for knowing how to google correctly 99% of problems can be fixed with a simple google search. My sister has a job doing Tech support for a huge multi-billion dollar company. She makes $60-70 an hour... and she knows jack all about computers. Her first few months were googling how to do everything... Then she memorized the portion of her job, still has to google once in awhile... but her work loves her.

She still asks me the most stupid questions related to computers. She can now program a Cisco router from scratch, but god forbid she needs to setup a static IP on a windows machine!

Everyone should learn the art of google-fu. 99% of sign related questions are usually answered just by googling also, so it's not just for PCs.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

The $300 is for knowing how to google correctly 99% of problems can be fixed with a simple google search. My sister has a job doing Tech support for a huge multi-billion dollar company. She makes $60-70 an hour... and she knows jack all about computers. Her first few months were googling how to do everything... Then she memorized the portion of her job, still has to google once in awhile... but her work loves her.

She still asks me the most stupid questions related to computers. She can now program a Cisco router from scratch, but god forbid she needs to setup a static IP on a windows machine!

Everyone should learn the art of google-fu. 99% of sign related questions are usually answered just by googling also, so it's not just for PCs.

There is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.. Typical, "Techie" thinking they can do what someone who spent years taking courses, labs and exams to get certifications can do by "Googling it". Hey you think it works, keep it up.. Wait till someone leaves a simple hole opened up somewhere and your entire system is hijacked... then the company will wish they sprang for someone more knowledgeable... She didn't work for Equifax did she?

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Even though we all veered offtopic to ram... I remembered to test! It looks like Onyx now is true multi core, not just when you open multiple files.

This is opening 1 file, all 4 of the cores are used. Not all at 100% the whole time... but you can see its generally using all 4 cores, making it 3-4 times faster than a single core. There are diminishing returns... So while an 8 core might sound faster than a 4 core would... it's not always the case. The clock speed plays a big roll too.As does bus speed, etc. As much as I love AMD, a 4 Core Intel can outperform an 8 core AMD in most benchmarks. So just know, the higher core amount doesn't always = faster.

[Edit] And I was doing other stuff while resource monitor was opened in the beginning. The big 100% is when I first opened the onyx file. So ignore everything before that... they all started at around 100%, and slowly tappered off once it was finished rendering.

Thanks for that. Here is my screenshot of ripping a 500MB TIFF file in 12.2 Postershop.
I mean, it does spread the load over all cores, but it hardly ever gets over total CPU usage of ~12%.

 

[ikarasu]

There is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.. Typical, "Techie" thinking they can do what someone who spent years taking courses, labs and exams to get certifications can do by "Googling it". Hey you think it works, keep it up.. Wait till someone leaves a simple hole opened up somewhere and your entire system is hijacked... then the company will wish they sprang for someone more knowledgeable... She didn't work for Equifax did she?

Depends on what your doing. There's a difference between a sysadmin, netadmin, and a tech agent...

You don't hire a technical support to setup your system. Just as you don't hire a sysadmin to setup your network... They're all different fields.

My post is about fixing problems, which is what the whole post talked about... Nothing to do with security.

The only thing that's fall under that, was the Cisco programming. It took me under a year to get my CCNA like 15 years ago. Anyone who knows anything about computers could likely do the same... Programming Cisco routers is easy, unless somethings changed over the years.

But IMO, comparing sysadmin/netadmin work to tech work, is like saying I have a digital printer so I'm qualified to make neon signs. They're a whole different world apart.

 

[ikarasu]

Thanks for that. Here is my screenshot of ripping a 500MB TIFF file in 12.2 Postershop.
I mean, it does spread the load over all cores, but it hardly ever gets over total CPU usage of ~12%.

Youay have bottleneck elsewhere .mechanical hard drives are pretty slow, especially if it's trying to read 4x and write 4x. If you don't have an SSD... That's where I'd start. Its the easiest and cheapest fix, and you may see a 2-300% increase in rip speeds .

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Depends on what your doing. There's a difference between a sysadmin, netadmin, and a tech agent...

You don't hire a technical support to setup your system. Just as you don't hire a sysadmin to setup your network... They're all different fields.

My post is about fixing problems, which is what the whole post talked about... Nothing to do with security.

The only thing that's fall under that, was the Cisco programming. It took me under a year to get my CCNA like 15 years ago. Anyone who knows anything about computers could likely do the same... Programming Cisco routers is easy, unless somethings changed over the years.

But IMO, comparing sysadmin/netadmin work to tech work, is like saying I have a digital printer so I'm qualified to make neon signs. They're a whole different world apart.

Wow, are you missing the the way you contradict yourself? So the girl that "Googles all the questions" is she a Tech agent? who also programs Cisco Routers.... which doesn't have anything to do with security cause it's like a printer and neon signs? No, your right... you figured it out! No fooling you, next time you you call your IT guy to fix your problem just wink while paying that $300 invoice and say, "I know it just took you a min to Google it and click a few buttons!" We'll have a new respect for you cause you know the inside information on how we really operate.

 

[ikarasu]

Wow, are you missing the the way you contradict yourself? So the girl that "Googles all the questions" is she a Tech agent? who also programs Cisco Routers.... which doesn't have anything to do with security cause it's like a printer and neon signs? No, your right... you figured it out! No fooling you, next time you you call your IT guy to fix your problem just wink while paying that $300 invoice and say, "I know it just took you a min to Google it and click a few buttons!" We'll have a new respect for you cause you know the inside information on how we really operate.

You seem pretty angry, did you get a cs degree or something? read my post where I said she was a tech agent. Nowhere did I say she was a system admin, or net admin. If she was, she'd be making a hell of a lot more.money. She can program a Cisco router, because becoming ccne certified is a cake walk, and her work offered it for free, so why not?

Anyways, I'm not a big believer in online arguments, so I'll end it after this post. No point in continuing - you seem to be misunderstanding what I said... But it seems personal to you, so I doubt I'll be able to convince you! If this post doesn't get my point across... Sorry if I offended you, and feel free to think I'm an idiot meddling in places I shouldnt be meddling .(for the record though, I'm ccne, CCNA, and a+ certified... Along with doing everything but the test for mcse) all around 10-15 years ago. I did it for fun, not for work... And it burnt me out and made me not enjoy computers as much, so I decided not to pursue a degree. I was going after becoming a net admin... But changed career paths midway. So while I'm not an expert, I do understand a "little" about the subject.

Just to simplify it... I do think most tech support stuff can be googled. I do think anyone with 20-60 mins of free time can learn to build their own systems from Google, or anywhere else .

Do I think someone can step into say Netflix, say they're a dev op and google their way through the job? Nope.

But 99% of the stuff people ask on here, or elsewhere about "why is my computer doing this" can be googled.

There was 2 posts this week about onyx or Flexi crashing - a quick Google search and the first result is to copy all your archived files and back then up, delete the work folder and see if that helps. 99% of the time that will... But you'd be amazed at how many people call that $300 tech who will just come over and do the same thing.

I encourage everyone to try and do their own troubleshooting. Just like I encourage everyone to do their own vehicle repairs. But if your one of them guys who will go pay $350 to get their brakes changed when 20 minutes of your time, and $100 for 4 shoes will save you $250... That's fine too.

But it's ludicrous to say no one but a mechanic should change their breaks because they might fail on the highway if a licensed mechanic doesn't do it.

This isn't the 90s anymore, everyone should be savvy enough to do their own technical support, and know when it's too much for them to handle themselves .

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I encourage everyone to try and do their own troubleshooting. Just like I encourage everyone to do their own vehicle repairs. But if your one of them guys who will go pay $350 to get their brakes changed when 20 minutes of your time, and $100 for 4 shoes will save you $250... That's fine too.

Math never has worked out on these things. Most people forget that their time does cost something. It's costing "you" something to do those repairs. That $250 savings (which I hope is just a figure for the "conversation" as they cost a smidge more for a DRW) isn't really $250 savings. And if it's your first time doing it, going to take a whole lot longer, maybe even longer for the 2nd or 3rd time.

I do agree though with doing things yourself, I just think people embellish the savings a little much. There are more trade offs to consider then just cost along, but opportunity costs as well.

I can have on one computer all the steps to compile, install and setup Arch (no nice GUI installer for most Arch distros), but as much time as it takes me, it's not worth it other then the ego stroking of saying that I did it.

Going way off the rails, but it's always something that disturbed be in the auto forums as well. I think of more about efficiency then I only easily seen monetary costs. It's important, but it's only part of the picture.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I post this not in response to ikarasu because he already "won and closed" the discussion, but for others so they can think about the security of their computer systems in a more knowledgeable and not naive way. I have a CCNP certification which is NOT a CCNE which is the most basic cert you can get. I also have a diploma in network security, so I know SOMETHING about what I'm talking about and hope no one follows ikarasu's way of thinking because it is complete garbage. Comparing computer problems to parts failing on a car is DUMB. People usually don't "bug" cars and hack them or do malicious things to them to gain information and use it in a criminal way. It's pretty simple, part goes bad so fix it. Or maybe something is causing parts to go bad but 99% of the time someone is not actively sabotaging the customer's car.

To think most computer "issues" are not security related is naive. Most calls have roots in security problems whether you know it or not. Common software call we'd get is "My computer won't connect to the internet". This was almost a daily call. I'd get to a machine and do some testing to find out say DNS info was changed or static IP address was changed. Now, you can Google these "symptoms" and get an answer and a fix pretty quickly. The user is back up and running and they love you, problem solved right? Well, to "Mr. Google It" and the end user, Yes! But what caused that symptom? Is what caused it still in the computer? Did what cause it do other damage? Is what caused it being transferred to other PCs on the network? Good infections DO NOT want to be easily detected. Malware makers know how "simple" people will try to fix the infection and are thinking 10 steps ahead. You don't always have the option to "re-image" a machine which still isn't a 100% cure-all.

Think of the internet being broken this way. Your computer can't get to the internet? Compare it to your in your sign shop and you can't get out the front door so you call joe-blow handyman. He comes and Googles "Door won't unlock" and Google suggests replace the deadbolt. He replaces the dead bolt and you can get out and your happy, he's happy, you pay him for Googling it and you go on your merry way. But wait, did he notice the dead bolt was drilled? Why was it drilled? Are there things missing or damaged in your shop? Is there an intruder hiding in there? Are the phones tapped? Computer keystrokes being recorded to get your banking info?

See the broken internet or whatever the person is calling about is a "symptom". You can Google and fix the symptom but what is the underlying problem that caused that symptom and are there other symptom's I'm not seeing or haven't found yet?

NOT every call is about a security issue, good amount is hardware problems, other is simple software issues, but I would say 30-50% of the help-desk calls have a security aspect to them.

Maybe someone wants to point out they have more Certifications and experience then I do and think there are simpler answers and that they are right and I am wrong. It's not really 50% its more like 20% or blah blah blah, but the point is if your trying to fix something on your computer think of it in a deeper sense. If something goes wrong with your PC and you have to call an IT Pro, YOU ask him these questions rather then accept "It's fixed, that will be $300"

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Now, you can Google these "symptoms" and get an answer and a fix pretty quickly. The user is back up and running and they love you, problem solved right? Well, to "Mr. Google It" and the end user, Yes! But what caused that symptom? Is what caused it still in the computer? Did what cause it do other damage? Is what caused it being transferred to other PCs on the network?

To add to this point here, I think most exploits have gone away from actually attacking computers themselves but going for more of the IoT objects on the network that usually aren't thought of by the end user like they do with their desktops/laptops/maybe phones etc. Hell, not even the vendors of those devices think of them or just flat out too lazy to patch/keep them up to date.

 

[ikarasu]

Math never has worked out on these things. Most people forget that their time does cost something. It's costing "you" something to do those repairs. That $250 savings (which I hope is just a figure for the "conversation" as they cost a smidge more for a DRW) isn't really $250 savings. And if it's your first time doing it, going to take a whole lot longer, maybe even longer for the 2nd or 3rd time.

I do agree though with doing things yourself, I just think people embellish the savings a little much. There are more trade offs to consider then just cost along, but opportunity costs as well.

I can have on one computer all the steps to compile, install and setup Arch (no nice GUI installer for most Arch distros), but as much time as it takes me, it's not worth it other then the ego stroking of saying that I did it.

Going way off the rails, but it's always something that disturbed be in the auto forums as well. I think of more about efficiency then I only easily seen monetary costs. It's important, but it's only part of the picture.

Depends on what it is. Also keep in mind I'm in Canada, so our stuff is more expensive.

I had to have my breaks + rotors replaced in my SUV. Cost was $1200 Canadian - I purchased new brakes + rotors for around $300 for "Premium" ones. Took me less than an hour to install all 4. Downside is, I didn't notice one of the Calipers was seizing and thats what caused the rotors to go bad. So when another $200 on parts, and 2 hours since I had to learn how to change the Caliper, and I was back up and running. Total was 3 hours, $500 on parts, and I saved $700. So the downside is if you're not a professional.. You don't notice the cause of the problem because you're not used to seeing it. So you don't always come out ahead. I could have replaced parts I didn't need to and wasted money, or completely missed a larger problem and caused more damage.

I still think it's worth a shot though. I've changed wheel bearings, struts, alternators, tons of stuff I was confident in doing myself, and havent had any problems aside from missing the caliper. There were a couple things I looked up, didn't feel confident enough to do, and brought it into my mechanic for though. So it's not always easy, but it's usually always fun, and helps you understand how a vehicle works.


And Texas... I didn't "Win" the argument by not having it, or ending it... I don't see anyone as a winner or losing. You posted your points, and I posted mine... This is a topic we can go back and fourth about for a month, you wont change my mind and I won't change you. I tried apologizing and explaining my position... if that's not enough, what else would be? I don't have all the free time in the world, so while I enjoy participating in forums, getting into arguments that benefit neither me, nor you is one thing I'd like to avoid. I don't disagree with what you're saying, everything I've read from you so far has it's points/merits, I just view it slightly differently. You're hardcore for security, how many VM's do you have setup? You're background makes you a little too much into redundancy and careful. You suggest all production machines have no internet - Let me ask you... out of a million printing shops, how many shops do you think follow that advice? Even there... I'm not saying your wrong, or it's stupid to think that way, you have your reasons... and it does give you extra protection. It's smart... but for the average person/shop, it's a pain in the butt. Different people can have different priorities, and ways of doing things, doesn't mean I win, and doesn't mean you win. So I know I said I'd stop talking about it... but I just wanted to reiterate, I find nothing wrong with the way you do things - and I understand why you're against the way I do things. It's not a competition to me.

 

[SightLine]

I got my CCIE back in 2001....

Back on topic. I'm with Wild West on this front. Pro workstations like the ones he mentioned and the upper end Dell Precisions (what I have for all of our desktops) are a different class of hardware. ECC saves you for that occasional crash as do the ECC features that Xeon processors take advantage of along with other features like memory sparing. There can be other advantages as well like enterprise class reliability and warranties. SAS SSD's are dual path unlike SATA, and even faster are NVMe SSD's (those are available in newer consumer desktops as well). We do a LOT of wraps on big things like buses and big murals, etc and often the Photoshop files will get massive. Flexi Production manager (while still 32 bit... ) does use multiple cores though when ripping. For most applications in this industry though, particularly when lookign at Xeon processors it is easy to get enamored with the huge numbers of cores available in the majority of them but less cores at a faster base core speed is far more beneficial. I'm not up on the latest generation XEON's but on the E5 series the 2643 and the 1650 parts are the sweet spot for number of cores versus raw core speed versus costs. A couple of parts that are a tiny bit faster but at a far higher cost. Its been proven that even Photoshop can hardly use more than about 8 cores.

Also of note on the comments on ECC memory being slower. Yes, generally it is a tiny bit slower than desktop memory but with 4 memory channels and more than double the memory bandwidth (depending on the XEON processor) of an i7 that speed difference is a negligible moot point.

My personal opinion - for most shops a good 4 or 6 core processor, 24 to 32GB of ram, and a solid good capacity SSD plus a big spinner for bulk storage are plenty. Most can also get by pretty well with consumer components as well (non-ecc) although I do personally recommend separate machines for your design and RIP and pretty much do nothing on the RIP other than let it do its dedicated job.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Also of note on the comments on ECC memory being slower. Yes, generally it is a tiny bit slower than desktop memory but with 4 memory channels and more than double the memory bandwidth (depending on the XEON processor) of an i7 that speed difference is a negligible moot point.

On the newer ones, the only time that they will get slower is when there is actual error correcting that needs to be done. Error checking is now handled at the CPU.

So that really makes it negligible, because it's not constant, only when something is needing to be corrected will it happen.