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I want to bring Embroidery in house. Need Advice!
- Thread starter sgns4u
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WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Barudan bar none is the absolute best brand out there for stitch quality, as well as, support after purchase. Also, if you use their native .U?? (no, that is not a typo) files, you can do so much more within the file itself provided you are using a digitizing software (Wilcom, also the best) that allows for this. DSTs are the most common generic file used with commercial machines, but those files do not support all of the functions that a Barudan machine can do. A particular function that I use regularly on our machines is the slow/fast function. Meaning, you can speed up or slow down the machine given the needs of a particular area of the design (small lettering/detail etc) within the U?? file itself. No babysitting the machine to slow it down and/or speed it back up. Those codes are put at specific stitch points. Once the machine reads it, it does it. You can do it on the machine itself, but it's not as efficient as being able to do it within the file itself. To my knowledge that is a functionality only available on Barudan machines.
If you are wanting the same capabilities with your single head and your multi-head, you are going to want a bridge style single head. Barudan bridge style machines, with regard to caps, allow you to stitch a max of 14" wide, the height is determined by the height of the item itself as long as it doesn't go beyond the biggest size for flats. Which unless you are doing a Dr. Seuss top hat, you shouldn't hit. To give an example, on your smallest hat size (low profile, typically unstructured), I can fit a 2.5 design on there without issue. That's on the single head or the multi-head. Singles, particularly your desktop variety are closer or at 2" in height (regardless if it's low, mid, or high profile). That extra half inch allows for a lot, designs that wouldn't normally be able to translate as well, that helps them a great deal.
Now, digitizing is a whole other can of worms. Rather you plan on doing it yourself or outsourcing that part of it, I would suggest you get Wilcom software. Again, not one of the cheapest, but it is the best. Unlike the immortal Ai v Corel and/or PC v MAC debates, there are significant differences in these software packages, even if you digitize correctly and that is what is called the stitch engine (the algorithm that generates the stitches after you digitize objects). That and the sheer functionality of Wilcom (especially if you use the full version) just blows the others away.
Attached is the type of single head that I would suggest. That is our specialty embroidery machine (it does regular embroidery, as well as, sequin embroidery), so don't need to worry about that part of it, just the fact that it is a bridge style. It has all the functionality of your multi-heads, just compressed into a single head.
Now, one word of caution with your multi-heads, especially 3 heads on up. Stay away from the step motor driven machines. There is a particular quirk with those machines with 3 or more heads. The further away from the motor you are, the sloppier the pantograph can get, typically on hats due to their special digitizing needs. Your first two heads, no problem. Third head maybe/maybe not. That fourth head on, more than likely heading for the trash bin. Go servo driven. For your single head, it doesn't matter, but your multi-heads past two heads, it does. You can mitigate that with even more special digitizing, if the digitizer is aware of the issue, more frequent servicing of the machine etc. Just be aware of the quirk with your step motor machines.
This is it in a nut shell, if you have any other questions, concerns, comments just let me know here on in the email in my signature. Hope this was helpful.
If you are wanting the same capabilities with your single head and your multi-head, you are going to want a bridge style single head. Barudan bridge style machines, with regard to caps, allow you to stitch a max of 14" wide, the height is determined by the height of the item itself as long as it doesn't go beyond the biggest size for flats. Which unless you are doing a Dr. Seuss top hat, you shouldn't hit. To give an example, on your smallest hat size (low profile, typically unstructured), I can fit a 2.5 design on there without issue. That's on the single head or the multi-head. Singles, particularly your desktop variety are closer or at 2" in height (regardless if it's low, mid, or high profile). That extra half inch allows for a lot, designs that wouldn't normally be able to translate as well, that helps them a great deal.
Now, digitizing is a whole other can of worms. Rather you plan on doing it yourself or outsourcing that part of it, I would suggest you get Wilcom software. Again, not one of the cheapest, but it is the best. Unlike the immortal Ai v Corel and/or PC v MAC debates, there are significant differences in these software packages, even if you digitize correctly and that is what is called the stitch engine (the algorithm that generates the stitches after you digitize objects). That and the sheer functionality of Wilcom (especially if you use the full version) just blows the others away.
Attached is the type of single head that I would suggest. That is our specialty embroidery machine (it does regular embroidery, as well as, sequin embroidery), so don't need to worry about that part of it, just the fact that it is a bridge style. It has all the functionality of your multi-heads, just compressed into a single head.
Now, one word of caution with your multi-heads, especially 3 heads on up. Stay away from the step motor driven machines. There is a particular quirk with those machines with 3 or more heads. The further away from the motor you are, the sloppier the pantograph can get, typically on hats due to their special digitizing needs. Your first two heads, no problem. Third head maybe/maybe not. That fourth head on, more than likely heading for the trash bin. Go servo driven. For your single head, it doesn't matter, but your multi-heads past two heads, it does. You can mitigate that with even more special digitizing, if the digitizer is aware of the issue, more frequent servicing of the machine etc. Just be aware of the quirk with your step motor machines.
This is it in a nut shell, if you have any other questions, concerns, comments just let me know here on in the email in my signature. Hope this was helpful.
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SightLine
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Evan (Wildwest) knows his stuff on these. We took the plunge a couple of years back. There is a learning curve for sure and a lot of smallish expenses you will want to account for. We started with a 6 needle single head Brother and then cam across a deal on a 4 head SWF. Both very capable machines. Eventually you will need a few different backings, thread racks, some wall space or a fairly large shelf to keep all the different hoops, etc, etc. Our 15 needle 4 head - you cannot just buy 1 cone of a thread color, for everything you run on the 4 head you have to buy 4 of every color.... The machines themselves, particularly a larger multi-head, you will greatly benefit from some professional training on dealing with it.
Start out with outsourcing the digitizing to Wildwest. That is nothing like doing artwork for printing or cutting and there is a rather massive learning curve. Not something you will master in a week while you are trying to figure the machines and get working them down to a science. Also - the return on your investment is slow, very slow and long unless you are going to be running the machines all day every day. Even then the return is slow. Digitsmith is probably the biggest source for used machines I've seen if you are considering the used route. Choose you machines carefully - some brands and models are problematic. Anything decent with a full color screen that will make it easier to use is not going to be cheap...
Start out with outsourcing the digitizing to Wildwest. That is nothing like doing artwork for printing or cutting and there is a rather massive learning curve. Not something you will master in a week while you are trying to figure the machines and get working them down to a science. Also - the return on your investment is slow, very slow and long unless you are going to be running the machines all day every day. Even then the return is slow. Digitsmith is probably the biggest source for used machines I've seen if you are considering the used route. Choose you machines carefully - some brands and models are problematic. Anything decent with a full color screen that will make it easier to use is not going to be cheap...
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Brothers are very good. A lot more so then most people give them credit for. I think what hurt's them the most is how Brother goes about marketing them. SWFs are very good. You do have quite a few no name (or rather new to the game) machines that haven't really quite proven themselves out there yet. Those I would stay away for a few yrs still. Let someone else be a guinea pig. To add to the list of smaller items above, I would also keep around lighter weight thread and a couple of specialty needles (one that is smaller in size and one for metallics (larger eyelet)). Other then that I use a 75/11 for everything else. Not that bad of a pain for your single head, but for your multi-heads you are going to have a lot of fun swapping them out, but it's something that not everyone does and it helps with quality.
Also extra empty bobbins to spool your own. Being able to match upper/lower thread colors on certain projects (Christmas tree example), that adds a nice touch. Plus, if you run out of the pre-wound stuff, you can still wind your own in an emergency.
Can't emphasis that enough. A screen on the machine is very, very helpful.
I appreciate the kind words. Thank you.
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Dennis422
New Member
Barudan and Tajima are maybe neck to neck as far as the quality.
I have Tajimas and I can not say that they are much better than Barudan, but at the same time, I would not say that the Barudan is way superior to Tajima.
If you are looking at the single head machines, consider a Toyota brand to. The only bad thing about them, they are not made any more (they were made by Tajima too, use most of the same parts).
Stay away from Chinese brands. Another few good ones, but not as good as above mentioned ones, SWF, HAPPY, BROTHER
A very steep learning curve. Be prepared for that. Outsource all the digitizing at first (Or forever). It is not worth the headache. But try to learn it as much as you can. It helps down the road, if nothing more, you will understand your machine better if you know digitizing.
Good luck
I have Tajimas and I can not say that they are much better than Barudan, but at the same time, I would not say that the Barudan is way superior to Tajima.
If you are looking at the single head machines, consider a Toyota brand to. The only bad thing about them, they are not made any more (they were made by Tajima too, use most of the same parts).
Stay away from Chinese brands. Another few good ones, but not as good as above mentioned ones, SWF, HAPPY, BROTHER
A very steep learning curve. Be prepared for that. Outsource all the digitizing at first (Or forever). It is not worth the headache. But try to learn it as much as you can. It helps down the road, if nothing more, you will understand your machine better if you know digitizing.
Good luck
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Barudan has a smaller stitch width that it can do a quality satin stitch width compared to a Tajima. Stitch widths, both max and mins, for satin stitches are all over the place as far as variation between brand to brand. Some are the same, some are not. Some got better with newer models, some are still what they were. This can be mitigated by lighter weight thread, smaller needle and slower speed in combination with digitizing, but that only gets you so far.
Plus, like I mentioned before, the functionality of the native U?? file is far more then the Tajima DST file. Ironically though, not all owners of the Barudan machines are aware of what you can do with the embroidery file. They are just so used to asking or getting a DST file. I usually try to talk them into getting the U?? from either me or their digitizer as it does make life easier. The functionality of being able to insert slow/fast commands into the embroidery file itself puts it in the superior category. There are some designs and/or substrates that require certain areas to go at a slower speed (most common small detail and small lettering), the typical reason for people not slowing the machines down is they don't want to have to babysit the machine. Being able to multi-task. Well, with that type of functionality, you don't have to babysit sit the machine. Just do everything like you normally do and the file takes care of it for you. That alone, to me, puts Barudan ahead of the game and being able to do that has a direct affect on quality as well.
However, having said that, your name brand machines do offer very good quality, but I would say the Barudans are far better. Tajimas are more well known, but the functionality and quality on the Barudan is more and more consistent on a broad range of items.
I would imagine that the new Pantograms GS1501 would be the closest to a Toyota machine that you can get now.
When you are looking at a machine, make sure to take files that are proven files for flats, hats etc to hear/see the machine run. Not all machines (even variation within brand) stitch as good on all substrates. Just make sure to take files that are optimized for hats, for shirts etc. Not a file that was setup to accommodate a wide range of items (which sacrifices are made) in one file. Contrary to popular opinion, one file doesn't fit all. This is especially good to do if you are buying used.
Mike_Koval
New Member
tajima and barudan are your top two out there. i cant speak on using either, but out of the number of folks we see at the ISS and printwear show, these are the two people are mainly using. all positive reviews from both
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
I haven't been to an ISS show. We are getting our first one in Nashville this year in May, so I'll have to check that out. The trade show that we do have here is the NNEP trade show and that you see a lot of Brother PR machines. Which are very good and do have there place for consideration as well. I don't like how Brother markets towards this business in a box mentality and that can be a shock for someone following that type of marketing getting into this industry. There are some things that I do like Brother more then others. PES files have color retention while the other files do not and their screen on their machines is perhaps the most user friendly out there. Stitch quality is also good and consistent.
royster13
New Member
The best way to get the largest embroidery area on a cap is to embroider it before it is assembled....I love seeing new caps around town....I often approach the potential client and ask them if I can do a spec sample of the caps I sell....Because I "off-shore" my caps I can do things the local embroiderers can not....On top of visor, below visor, on velcro straps, larger fronts, etc....
Now in-house embroidery has it's place, but IMO it is not for "some" order of caps....If your client wants minimal embroidery or quick turns, it works....But it there is a large number of stitches, multiple locations, odd locations, lots of time, etc. an "off-shore" source will make you more money....And free up your time and equipment for more profitable work.....
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
We actually do embroidery on the flat and build around it. Not for the hats mind you, although we can, low runs too cost prohibitive and for the large runs, you can't actually beat the price of offshore, but we can do it. Just not worth it.
Attached is a custom pillow case that we did. We did the embroidery work and built the pillow case around it. Wouldn't be able to do that with a pre built pillow case except in a few instances, but it would depend on your machine and the type of pillowcase. This style (envelope style) wouldn't be possible unless you either tile the embroidery (the Brother PR 1000 lineup is suited for that type of work since it has to tile for the larger sizes that it can do) or you tear down the pillow and sew it back up.
You are right though, embroidery on bills, velcro straps expecially. Larger fronts, that will depend on if you are going over the top or not with the design. That will depend on the design.
Odd position places will actually depend. If it fits within a hoop and you aren't going to hit the hoop itself, you can put it anywhere, it doesn't have to be in the center of the hoop. I've done some funky locations on hats. Even on the mesh of trucker style hats using a technique called fringe applique. So it really depends on what you mean by odd locations.
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binki
New Member
For the single head, get a standard size, not a compact machine (as shown by WWD). It is good you want the 4 head as well. You can't make any money with just the single head but it gets in into the game and lets you do one-offs and sew outs.
The newer Tajima's allow you to sew right down to the bill on hats. Something you will find you will be asked for on nearly every hat order. Our SWF needs a 1/4" clearance from the bill.
As far as machine recommendations, all above have done a good job.
Now, you need to select thread, We use Madeira for the top thread and Magnaglide bobbins. Plan on spending about $2000 on Thread and bobbins for 5 heads. I would recommend buying your spools 6 or 12 at a time for each color. We only use the 5500 yard cones.
Next you will need supplies, various backings, toppings and if you want to do puff you will need the 3D embroidery foam and then you need a variety of scissors, snips, tweezers, tack spray, no-fray. So there is another $1500.
If you want to do patches you will need twill, scrim backing and maybe felt. Cotton twill in a big roll will run you about $450 each with shipping. We only get black and white in that size, everything else is poly twill in 16 inch rolls except black and white which we get in something like a 51 inch roll.
So the next thing is hooping. Get the magnetic hoops from HoopMaster as well as their hooping station for both the Mighty Hoops and the friction hoops that will come with your machine. Plan on spending around $5000 for everything to outfit 5 heads. Also, you may want to get some clamping hoops as well for some things that the Mighty Hoops won't work with.
There you go, add another 10%-30% onto your purchase price for supplies.
As far as digitizing goes, an entirely new animal. It takes years to get beyond awful to just terrible. But, I see it every day where someone comes in with a badly digitized and badly sew logo and asks us to reproduce it.
http://www.mightyhoop.com/
http://www.hoopmaster.com/
http://madeirausa.com/
http://www.hooptechproducts.com/
Good luck and come back for more questions.
The newer Tajima's allow you to sew right down to the bill on hats. Something you will find you will be asked for on nearly every hat order. Our SWF needs a 1/4" clearance from the bill.
As far as machine recommendations, all above have done a good job.
Now, you need to select thread, We use Madeira for the top thread and Magnaglide bobbins. Plan on spending about $2000 on Thread and bobbins for 5 heads. I would recommend buying your spools 6 or 12 at a time for each color. We only use the 5500 yard cones.
Next you will need supplies, various backings, toppings and if you want to do puff you will need the 3D embroidery foam and then you need a variety of scissors, snips, tweezers, tack spray, no-fray. So there is another $1500.
If you want to do patches you will need twill, scrim backing and maybe felt. Cotton twill in a big roll will run you about $450 each with shipping. We only get black and white in that size, everything else is poly twill in 16 inch rolls except black and white which we get in something like a 51 inch roll.
So the next thing is hooping. Get the magnetic hoops from HoopMaster as well as their hooping station for both the Mighty Hoops and the friction hoops that will come with your machine. Plan on spending around $5000 for everything to outfit 5 heads. Also, you may want to get some clamping hoops as well for some things that the Mighty Hoops won't work with.
There you go, add another 10%-30% onto your purchase price for supplies.
As far as digitizing goes, an entirely new animal. It takes years to get beyond awful to just terrible. But, I see it every day where someone comes in with a badly digitized and badly sew logo and asks us to reproduce it.
http://www.mightyhoop.com/
http://www.hoopmaster.com/
http://madeirausa.com/
http://www.hooptechproducts.com/
Good luck and come back for more questions.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Madeira has some really good thread and being able to buy the bigger cones is great. Magnaglide bobbins are the best pre-wound bobbins that you can get. I'm more old fashioned and like to wind my own. That will cut some cost out of it and you do have control over what you can do with the lower thread. Some projects do benefit from upper/lower thread matching, I would get some extra empty bobbins for that. The winding machines are cheap and they last.
I'm surprised that backing and toppings get listed to get various types and yet needles don't get that much notice. I would suggest a 65/9 (small lettering/detail work), 75/11 (general purpose, all around work horse) and 90/14 (for metallic thread, if you ever deal with those), plus keep some lighter weight thread. When you do .18" lettering (which is the smallest that I will go) that will come in handy. I try to get them to let me bump it up to .2" though, that's the end of my comfort zone.
Actually with toppings, a contour motif fill matching the color of the substrate will solve most of your needs for using a topping. At least in my experience. Something with pleats might be the only consideration for a topping.
Best purchase you can make. I would also add getting the freestyle base as well. Fixing to do applique work on toddler shirts and that comes in handy. I hate the OEM hoops on my machines, everything is either the mighty hoop. slimtech clamps, or the gator clamp (Barudan only).
I wouldn't do a hoop smaller then 5.5 x 5.5 with regard to the Mighty Hoops, but that's me.
Working on one now that is like that. The person that's doing the embroidery tried to talk the end customer out of it, but nope. It is what it is.
For the freestyle base:
http://www.hoopmaster.com/freestyl.htm
The ones that I like:
www.hooptechproducts.com/t/Clamps-All
The Barudan one:
www.shopbarudan.com/p-3208-efp007033-gator-clamp-for-barudan-520mm.aspx
binki
New Member
I forgot about needles but the machine will come with 75/11 ballpoints. You will need 75/11 sharps as well as 80/12 both sharp and ballpoint. If you do the smaller letting then the smaller needles along with the #60 thread. I was more focused on all the stuff you won't get with the machine!
Anyway, my list is far from complete but it gives you an idea that the Machine is just the start.
Oh, BTW, digitizing software will run $15K for the top of the line. I believe Wilcom has dropped their price. It used to be $30K.
Anyway, my list is far from complete but it gives you an idea that the Machine is just the start.
Oh, BTW, digitizing software will run $15K for the top of the line. I believe Wilcom has dropped their price. It used to be $30K.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
They've gone back up. Or at least I'm speculating that they have. One generation upgrading used to be $1,000 now going from E2 to E3 I paid $1,400. Full version to full version.
You won't have prices on the E3 version, because they have gone back to being modular. A lot of different combination of modules and prices depending on what modular you get. Most really only stuck with Lvl 2 or Lvl 2 Gold as it was, during the old pricing schedule. It does come with X6, as a separate install (it directly iterfaces with Coral, you have a toggle button that switches between the two interfaces) as well.
Wilcom does have lower level packages as well. DecoStudio (which does have some modules, but still not as extensive as their EmbroideryStudio software and those modules), Editing and Lettering. Each one of those 3 packages has their pros and cons. The last two aren't so much digitizing packages as doing changes to outsourced files. Especially if you get the native EMB files (you may or may not get those from every digitizer and even if you do, they might make subtle changes to it to make it not as usable, that is akin to getting the Ai or CDR files without paying for the transfer of rights and with digitizing prices the way that they are, it's hard to justify sending those). DecoStudio, you can do digitizing with, but you really have to plan a head on how you digitize. It doesn't have an extensive input tool set like the full version and it doesn't have the editing post digitizing like the full version. You can still do it, but you have to really think ahead when you digitizing to be able to take full advantage of what you do get.
I have been digitizing for over 15 yrs and Wilcom is the best package in terms of stitch engine and functionality and I have messed with a lot of digitizing packages within that time period as well. However, having said that, it is lacking one type of underlay that does allow you to simulate about 2mm foam (after you layer it), but you can still manually digitizing it in there. They tried to add something close to it, but it always adds in a centerline running stitch which just kills the effect.
Plus you can directly link your computer to your embroidery machine using Wilcom. Setup queues etc. So it also acts as essentially a rip program as well.
I should add that Wilcom has been running a lot of end of the year specials the last few yrs. Getting people to either switch to their program or get people into the fold from the get go. So you can get deals on pricing if you time it right.
binki
New Member
Now that you mention directly connecting to the machine.....
I know the companies are offering remote run capability but unless you have someone to hoop the garments and fix thread breaks being able to start the emb from you easy chair doesn't make sense to me. Don't pay for that option.
I know the companies are offering remote run capability but unless you have someone to hoop the garments and fix thread breaks being able to start the emb from you easy chair doesn't make sense to me. Don't pay for that option.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
I agree, that doesn't make much sense at all.
One thing though, I do want to add since we are talking about connectivity between computers and/or machines.
One advantage that single head machines (rather compact or bridge style) is the ability to network them together, so in essence they become a multi-head with the computer being the single brain that links them. The advantage comes in the fact that you can either network them or use them independently. In other words, if you have a true 4 head machine, you can only run one pattern at a time. If you have 4 single head machines, you can run 1, 2, 3 or 4 patterns at a time. It just depends on the work load demand for each pattern. That's a distinct advantage of single heads that isn't there with multi-heads, add in there the issue with step motor machines as well, that is an advantage and you can do that with either compact or bridge style machines (depending on brand). Brother does have the best networking setup on their PR line in terms of user friendliness and functionality. They do have their limitations that counter that, but they are a head of the pack on what you can do with that network ability.
Both Barudan & ZSK are excellent machines. Running Barudan today - ZSK will be the next one through the doors (http://www.zskusa.com/). Wilcom is the only way to go if you plan to digitize.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Most machines now can network. The benefit is flexibility, plus when you do have one of those issues that cause the machine to go down, not just one head, you can still be in running. Now, the compact/desktop machines can go one advantage further with this in their mobility. Either with regard to be mobile with embroidery work or with being able to have access to a tech closer and may not have to have them come to you. There are a lot of good techs that dont want to have to travel to service machines. But they do have their trade offs as well in other areas.
It really just depends on what aspects you are wanting or needing. We run multi heads, single head bridge and desktop single heads, they all have their place.