Issues with Pantone Reds on L360???

[Mixedmedia]

I just purchased the HP L360 at the beginning of the year. I was very impressed with the speed and the quality of the printer. Seemed to be a well worth while upgrade from my L25500. Then I noticed that all my reds look weak/washed out. I have certain clients that required me to hit their Pantone color (Rutgers). So I printed out the Pantone Coated Chart out of Onyx and I noticed that all of my colors looks as good if not better then the L25500 except for any of the Red or Burgundy colors. They are not just different they are definitely not the Pantone colors!

Anyone else experienced this or have any advice on how to correct this. I've been dealing with HP for a month now and no one is acknowledging that this machine has an issue with the Red Pantone colors. I've been through hardware, application & software tech and no one can either help me get this corrected or acknowledge that this is just a pitfall of the new machine.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Rydaddy]

Profiles

First: I do not have this printer - But....

Second: Are you using manufacturer profiles or building your own?

 

[P Wagner]

The overall color gamut on the Latex 300 series is not significantly different than the 200 series (L260) in most cases.

Rutgers University's brand guidelines calls Pantone 186 C for the red. I ran a quick predictive delta E check for that color for the Latex 360 printing onto 3M IJ40C media (using a custom media profile & print mode), and Onyx Media Manager came up with a prediction of dE2000 = 1.8. That value indicates an outstanding simulation of the reference color (Pantone 186 C) onto the 3M media. See screen capture for more info.

This is largely due to the fact that the specific media that I am referencing contains a Print Mode that is using more ink than other media profiles might (note that the Print Mode is using 120 percent ink). At 110 percent, the dE value rises to 2.4 and at 100 percent the dE rises to 3.3. This indicates that the color is in-gamut when more ink is available for use (120 percent) and increasingly out-of-gamut with less ink.

By the way, a dE 2000 value of less than 2 is considered an outstanding reproduction of the reference color. Only the most discriminating customers would hold the printer to this tolerance for reference colors.

 

[dypinc]

Try using the backlit media setting and set your ink density up to 185% or maybe 150% and then create a new profile. You can't go under 12 pass but you should be able to improve the reds.

 

[Mixedmedia]

First: I do not have this printer - But....

Second: Are you using manufacturer profiles or building your own?

I have tried both the canned profiles you can download from the machine and making my own. I have had much better results with my own of coarse. But still having trouble with the Pantone Reds.

 

[dypinc]

I have tried both the canned profiles you can download from the machine and making my own. I have had much better results with my own of coarse. But still having trouble with the Pantone Reds.

What ink densities have you tried?

Don't forget that Latex Optimizer is also figured into the ink density.

Different media will take more or less ink. Some media you probably can't lay enough ink down to get really good reds. If you print the ink density diagnostic plot both for front-lit and back-lit you will get a good idea where you need to be for the best reds.

 

[Mixedmedia]

The overall color gamut on the Latex 300 series is not significantly different than the 200 series (L260) in most cases.

Rutgers University's brand guidelines calls Pantone 186 C for the red. I ran a quick predictive delta E check for that color for the Latex 360 printing onto 3M IJ40C media (using a custom media profile & print mode), and Onyx Media Manager came up with a prediction of dE2000 = 1.8. That value indicates an outstanding simulation of the reference color (Pantone 186 C) onto the 3M media. See screen capture for more info.

This is largely due to the fact that the specific media that I am referencing contains a Print Mode that is using more ink than other media profiles might (note that the Print Mode is using 120 percent ink). At 110 percent, the dE value rises to 2.4 and at 100 percent the dE rises to 3.3. This indicates that the color is in-gamut when more ink is available for use (120 percent) and increasingly out-of-gamut with less ink.

By the way, a dE 2000 value of less than 2 is considered an outstanding reproduction of the reference color. Only the most discriminating customers would hold the printer to this tolerance for reference colors.

Thanks for the feedback. Right now I have built a profile at 110% and am getting 3.2 for 186C and for Pantone 200C I am getting a 4.9. I am going to try and build a profile at 120% to see what values I can come up with. I never about this in media manager so it is a big help.

 

[Mixedmedia]

What ink densities have you tried?

Don't forget that Latex Optimizer is also figured into the ink density.

Different media will take more or less ink. Some media you probably can't lay enough ink down to get really good reds. If you print the ink density diagnostic plot both for front-lit and back-lit you will get a good idea where you need to be for the best reds.

Right now I have only tired 100% and 110%. I am going to try and bump it up on the profile I am building now to see how much it changes. I really appreciate all the feedback. More help then hp tech support...

 

[dypinc]

Right now I have only tired 100% and 110%. I am going to try and bump it up on the profile I am building now to see how much it changes. I really appreciate all the feedback. More help then hp tech support...

100% and 110% is defiantly not enough ink lay down for good reds, but of course it does depend on your media as well. Print the ink density plot with the backlit setting as you will probably find that 120% is still not enough. If your going to try 120% make sure the Latex Optimizer is set as low as you can comfortably set it.

 

[P Wagner]

Just to continue on this line of thought, I went and printed a file that contained Pantone 186 C, using the HP Latex 360 and 3M IJ40C media. The media profile print mode that was used was 100 percent ink at 10 pass. The printed specimen measured out to a 4.4 dE from the reference color P186C). That is not a perfect match by any means, but it is within the generally accepted guidelines for a 'good' match according to accepted practices. Adding more ink to the print mode would certainly close this to a smaller dE value.

 

[Correct Color]

The basic problem is that fact that HP made the horrible decision to make the 360 a Contone only printer.

It's all very handy to make quick and easy profiles from the front panel, but machine profiling is an art, and the more you make it simple, the more you take away control of the printer, and control of the printer is The. Whole. Freakin'. Point. Of. Profiling.

I've done a fair amount of testing for a client with the 360, and the bottom line is that as the contone settings are currently set, it's hard to get a good red at ten pass. My personal opinion is that they could have done a different configuration of single-channel vs. multi-channel limits and gotten more red out of the thing, but they didn't, and there isn't really much that can be done about it as the machine is currently configured.

Note that the machine obviously has the capability, it's just not currently being made available.

Of course you can slow the thing down and get more ink and more ink will give you more color, but even at 10 pass, speed isn't this machine's strong point.

Also, I'm not terribly fond of the profiles that the front panel makes just as ICC profiles themselves. They're made using an ICC profile-making engine developed by HP, evidently, as that's the maker mark in the profiles themselves. In my opinion, they've got some serious issues in perceptual rendering intent, their relcol rendering intent is okay, but their black generation has some serious flaws.

I'd strongly advise even as long as the thing is contone only, to not use the onboard profiler, but to import in third party profiles.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[Bly]

Interesting you should say that Mike.
We've had ours a few weeks now.
I looked for info on profiling but couldn't see how to generate a profile using Onyx.
Can you quickly describe how that could be done?
We profile our other printers using a spectro etc.

 

[dypinc]

Your right the onboard profiler is pretty much junk, and if you go to the backlit setting to get more ink density in some cases it is not even available to use, if anyone would want to use it anyway.

I am disappointed that the made this a contone device, especially not being able to control the light inks.

On the other hand with Fiery's Color Profiler and the XF RIP I have been able to match Pantone 186 C exactly with 10pass and 120% Ink Density on 3M, Avery and Brightline vinyls. But one thing you have to absolutely avoid is CMYK values and profiles anywhere in the mix except for the output device profile for any high gamut colors in digital output devices. This hold true for wide format inkjets and digital presses.

 

[dypinc]

Interesting you should say that Mike.
We've had ours a few weeks now.
I looked for info on profiling but couldn't see how to generate a profile using Onyx.
Can you quickly describe how that could be done?
We profile our other printers using a spectro etc.

You should be able to find it buried somewhere in Onyx. But Onyx makes ICC profiling way more complicated then necessary. When I tested Onyx on my L360, Onyx wanted to run you through ink limiting (one a Contone device?) before it would allow you to make a profile. You would be better off turning off CM in Onyx and then print your profile target and creating the profile with Profiling software. Then install the output profile into Onyx. Will that work, who knows with Onyx. In comparing Onyx with higher end RIP I found Onyx a real PITA.

 

[Bly]

I find Onyx profiling to be simple and easy.
I use it with great success on my Roland and two older HP latex machines.
The 360 is set up differently though and it seems Onyx expects the profiles to be created on the printer then downloaded to the rip.

 

[dypinc]

I find Onyx profiling to be simple and easy.
I use it with great success on my Roland and two older HP latex machines.
The 360 is set up differently though and it seems Onyx expects the profiles to be created on the printer then downloaded to the rip.

Now that you mention it, profiles created with Onyx did seem to have poor reds. Caldera wasn't much better if any. Both RIPs had problem printing good pantone colors which may have been because of poor profiles. With Caldera I always had use the spectro and read new LAB values to get better pantone matches. Onyx on the other hand I gave up on. Didn't really have the time to waste on all its scattered dialogs after the first beta of the XF drivers for the L360 were released.

 

[AF]

On the L260 and the best possible media, the ink limits need to be north of 190 to get exceptional reds. It sounds like the 360, with limits around 120 max including optimizer, simply won't do it. I think you would have to greatly increase pass count and make custom profiles to have a chance at reaching decent reds. This doesn't make it a bad printer, just not a great one if you need red and rely on the internal spectro.

I suppose all the dirty tricks to get the 260 to put out great color do not apply to the 360 since it is a contone printer.

 

[dypinc]

The ink limits set by RIPs on 25500 and 26500 being a halftone printing don't really correlate to the L360. One thing that is the same in some ways is throw too much ink at it improves nothing and will give you a milky look. And with the Latex Optimizer on the L360 reducing coalescing you can get in trouble with too much ink way sooner and easier.

I have done a lot of testing with ink limit settings on the L360. When testing 200% verses 120% with same profile creation software and same profile generation setting I saw no improvement in color saturation at 200%. What I did was that where there was high ink loads there was a milky look to it the same as what I saw with the L25500. In examining the profile targets and profiles the profiles were doing a lot more work reducing ink and because of milkiness from too much ink the profiles were not as accurate when the ink density was set at 120%. So there is a fine line with the L360 just like the 25500 and 26500 where too much ink is a bad thing. Now that does not mean that some media might not benefit from 130% or 150% and I still think that HP needs to update that in a firmware release. I see no reason why 8, 6 and 4 pass should not allow at least 120% ink density which is the biggest problem with the L360.

I have also tested setting ink limits high on the printer and then setting ink limits on the RIP. Not worth it in my option because you still can't control individual channels like you can with a halftone device.

I have come to the conclusion the most accurate color rendering on the L360 is set the correct ink density and then use a good profiling software with black curve and other controls to create profiles. It just takes a little trial and error to get the ink density correct. Once you do you will know it when you see it. Take a close look at your profile targets, compare them with different Ink Density settings and with the LAB readings and the what the colors should really be.

 

[AF]

Q


What is the difference between halftone and contone printing?


In Halftone printers, the whole color management and workflow settings are controlled by the RIP so a specific mediaprofile has to be generated for each RIP and media print mode combination.
In Contone printers, most of the color management and workflow settings are done inside the printer as media profiles arenow on board the printer. This means that the “click to print” time is significantly reduced as RIP processing is nowsignificantly quicker.
Q Is there any disadvantages going from a halftone to contone printing?
The user won’t be able to select full to light color ink separations to tradeoff between image quality and print cost. Howeverto solve this the user can using only four colors with any number of passes.




So according to HP, the advantage of the new latex being "contone" is reduced click to print time, which is not really an advantage since most rips allow for "print while ripping". The disadvantage is no control of ink separations. I think the disadvantage is fairly serious. Imagine all the advancements of the 360 with traditional control of the printer. That would be an exceptional machine.

 

[dypinc]

This means that the “click to print” time is significantly reduced as RIP processing is nowsignificantly quicker.

I don't see this. How would rasterizing be any quicker one way or the other.

So according to HP, the advantage of the new latex being "contone" is reduced click to print time, which is not really an advantage since most rips allow for "print while ripping". The disadvantage is no control of ink separations. I think the disadvantage is fairly serious. Imagine all the advancements of the 360 with traditional control of the printer. That would be an exceptional machine.

I don't disagree with you, but if it is addressed as a halftone device how would you handle the Latex Optimizer? How is it done on the 3000? Is the 3000 setup as contone device as well?