Keeping Windows Updated

[Pauly]

From the Windows 11 thread, there was a few talking about windows 10 and the annoying updates.

Although some of you already know how it all works, and reasons to and reasons not to allow windows 10 to upgrade.

For those who think windows is just forcing updates on users jus because they're bored or want your monday, this video explains it quite simply and well. (Coincidentally was released today and saw it on my front page)

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Although some of you already know how it all works, and reasons to and reasons not to allow windows 10 to upgrade.

There is technically no allowing Win 10 to update. It's possible to defer updates, but even the Enterprise users can't defer them perpetually. Although Enterprise does allow for the longest time period, it does have an EOL with it. It actually didn't use to, and when Win 10 came out, there were more options for Pro users then there are now, which in of itself caused a stink.

While I said this back in the other thread, I do not have a problem with actually forcing security/patch updates particularly on a bloated legacy code infested OS (I update all my boxes weekly (not Win or OSX boxes though), but forcing major feature updates (which they do twice a year, some are bigger then others though) is something totally different.

In case you think my legacy code comment was just a jab at them, back in 2016, they patched an issue that dated back to Win 95. I can promise you, there is other code that dates back that far as well. That's how one is still able to have a good chance of running that old legacy software that doesn't have official support anymore.

For those who think windows is just forcing updates on users jus because they're bored or want your monday, this video explains it quite simply and well. (Coincidentally was released today and saw it on my front page)

There is some basis for that. There is actually no need for advertising with the OS, not even for a "better user experience". While normally, I could give a pass if it's at least opt out, not on something like that. Telemetry is something that one cannot totally get rid of, that's nothing but information gathering as it is. And if security is such a big deal, where are there communication ports (telemetry) there that I as the user can't close? That's not good for security.

There is more of a desire to monetize even though it isn't the same way as it use to be. It's all about the information. The OS is not where MSs money is at though. It's Azure and other cloud services, even other programs that are no subscription, some cloud run, but some Electron (which allows to be on all platforms), but it's about that subscription model.

Keep in mind too, MS got rid of their entire internal QA team that helps debug updates, before they get out to the wild. Myself personally, I wouldn't call that a good idea for a commercial supported OS, but then again, what do I know.


Now take monetizing off the table, forced updates etc. I have dealt with Windows since the DOS days and dealt with various forms of updates from them (Win 98 nagged by far the most, at least it seemed like that to me), but I have never experienced smooth updates from Windows, not on a consistent basis. Sure, some went better then others, but it wasn't consistent. While I can/do give MS a pass on the share amount of combinations that there are for hardware/software (more in terms of drivers, codecs etc) for Windows compared to Mac (Linux has the same has a good range of hardware/software combinations, not to the level of Windows, but certainly more then Mac), I don't give them a pass when they perpetually force updates AND they got rid of their internal QA time.

I do believe in doing updates on a regularly basis, debated Bruce on the matter quite a bit. If forced updates stopped with patches/security fixes, I could tolerate that a whole lot more. But once it also included big feature updates, that's no bueno. Sometimes, ideas that are good can turn to crap depending on how they are implemented.

 

[Pauly]

There is technically no allowing Win 10 to update...

This was for the more average user.

I know what you're saying in that matter though.
I had windows update kick me in the ass when i was upgrading my PC & re installing onyx and driver/key issues that caused huge issues for a whole day.

I also have bear minimal running on my RIP PC. Onyx, ICC profiling & colour measuring software, Adobe PC & AI and MS office.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

You know, something like this doesn't really inspire confidence on the positive aspects of keeping my Windows system updated.

Bare in mind, this driver was signed by MS. Now the article said that the believed affected demographic is relatively low. Well, I would imagine that most people would try to spin things to mitigate the fallout, I'm more disturbed about the fact that it was signed combine that with auto updates and I'm supposed to trust the vetting process, uuugghhhhh, I dunno about that.

Updates in of themselves are a double edged sword as it is, regardless if it comes straight from the OEM or not. This adds another layer on to that.

I'm a firm believer in keeping my systems updates, but if one is going to force those updates upon me, better make sure that they are perfect, otherwise trust could be completely eroded.

 

[DPD]

I never update my windows systems. I've seen too many issues in the past. There is a way to stop W10 from updating but it takes going into the nuts and bolts and I have to google it each time. Like someone has already said, its not for the casual user.

Quick story: A few years back I purchase a brand new W7 and load Flexisign 10. Everything is going swimmingly. First update and Flexisign breaks. I call Flexisign, we back out the first of my W7 updates and voila - everything working again after which I turn off updates.

I'd be on Linux by now except that Flexisign does not work with Linux and I haven't tried finding a substitute application.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I never update my windows systems. I've seen too many issues in the past. There is a way to stop W10 from updating but it takes going into the nuts and bolts and I have to google it each time. Like someone has already said, its not for the casual user.

They keep on changing it. First with the noWin10 type of programs, those programs would change the host file accordingly. Well, now Windows ignores the host file (if rumors are true, probably won't have the ability to extensively edit Windows system files, like the host file as well). Used to be able to go and tell Windows that you were on a metered connection (even when that connection was ethernet), not able to do that anymore. All in the interest of "protecting the user" and making it "user friendly". All BS, but people buy into it. Unless, of course, want to get the "Enterprise" version (which even regular users can get, just have to be on a subscription service to do so) which would allow for more options.

Given that there are open communication ports (that we are aware of, may be others), that leads to the ability for updates to happen regardless of what "you" do.

I'd be on Linux by now except that Flexisign does not work with Linux and I haven't tried finding a substitute application.

As was already mentioned, have the ability for VMs. Another possibility is WINE, but I would probably spec out a computer for VMs accordingly as WINE can be hit or miss, especially for niche applications.

Although Caldera will run natively on Linux, so there is that option as well. I do believe that you will be forced onto Debian in order for official support. Debian wouldn't be my first choice, but I digress.


As far as the "average user" goes, the "average user" isn't going to edit the host file. The "average user" isn't going to tell the computer that they are on a metered connection even on ethernet. Those also take steps that the "average user" is more then likely too lazy to want to do with. I find it insane that Windows ignores the host file, there are security implications for those that legitimately need to edit the host file. Why take those options off the table?

More and more, Windows and Mac belong less to those that purchased the computers. Just the way that it is. I purchased it, if I fubar it, then I fubar it. People need to go back to being responsible for their own "stuff". While we still have the ability to have our own "stuff".

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Are you talking about the Enterprise LTSC branch? I think that they have one for the later half of this year. At least based on an announcement back in Feb of this year.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Shoot even Ubuntu LTS get 10 yrs now (although to get passed the old EOL of 4 yrs have to pay for the rest, if I recall correctly).

Let's face it, everything is more and more geared to the cloud as it is. I think the majority of MSs money is coming from Azure(Ironically found out my niece is going for certification in this as well) more then Windows instances. I think even Adobe gets more money from their analytics cloud software (or whatever it is) then CC itself.

I think the mistake here is treating computers as a commodity, which it more and more appears that is what OEMs are trying to do. I've got computers going on 13 yrs of service that still have the latest versions of Linux on them and hum along just fine. Imagine trying to run early Win 7 machines for latest Win 10 or Win 11. Especially Win 11. Fat chance of that.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I feel like everybody can see the car coming on this iOT path we are on, but they are too enamored by the shiny headlights that is new conveniences and devices to move out of the way.

Umm, they are already there. May not be quite a sophisticated yet, versus the smaller "appliances", but they are essentially IoTs as it is.

 

[DPD]

You could load windows as a VM on linux, then install flexi there.

You speak truth.

I'm testing on Ubuntu as we speak because I'm getting tired of paying Microsoft every year. Thanks for the emulation tip. I actually didn't consider it. I'll take a look. Thing is though that I'm not running a dual boot so I'll have to see if I can run VM or similar in a "try" mode. I think we're hijacking the thread. Are you running a cloud version of Flexi in VM on Linux? What flavor of Linux?

- denis

 

[WildWestDesigns]

but I knew the comment would come pretty quickly, so I had to beat WildWestDesigns to the punch suggesting as much!

Denis:

Emulation is a little different then a VM. While emulators can virtualize, the other way around is not possible. For instance, you can take QEMU and run ARM based OSs on x86_64 hardware as it is also an emulator, but you can't run ARM based OSs using VirtualBox as it is only able to run virtual environments and relies on the host system for the hardware bit, while something like QEMU does not, but can use it when needed.

This makes me think that I was correct in my assumption that you were trying Flexi via WINE in the other thread.

All honesty, outside if you want a rolling release (something that I wouldn't advise for production environments such as ours) or you want something with an LTS, flavors of Linux don't really matter outside of preference (for instance I tend to stick with Qt/"cute" DEs over Gnome based ones). I do like VirtualBox for VMs, not many care for how Oracle has done things, but VirtualBox is still the better VM program that I have found that is very easy to even get started with a VM, before even having to start worrying about how to setup a niche program like Flexi to be able to "see" your printers.

If you want a long term supported OS, stick with your Ubuntu or derivatives (I use Ubuntu Studio on my main rig (using Plasma) and KDE Neon for all my other computers). If you want something that is always updating to the latest and greatest, Arch. Manjaro if you want something that is easier to install versus vanilla Arch. I have run Fedora in production (it goes EOL every 13 months) and that's fine, probably more stable then Arch and still get you bleeding edge.